Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Drop bottom gondolas

Expand Messages
  • jlyans
    Maybe I m wrong but I think that a lot of folks would love to see the 700 series car. It has always been my favorite gondola and I have built several of them
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 31, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Maybe I'm wrong but I think that a lot of folks would love to see the 700 series car. It has always been my favorite gondola and I have built several of them in HOn3 and 1:20.3. Looking through the Robert Grandt, "Narrow Gauge Pictorial" Vol. 3, it looks as if a number of the low sided, 700 series cars survived into the 1950's, 60's and 70's. I hope that Blackstone decides to make that version in the future.

      John Lyans
    • Hart Corbett
      To see a 700 series drop bottom in use in 1960 in a color photo, go to:
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        To see a 700 series drop bottom in use in 1960 in a color photo, go to:

        http://picasaweb.google.com/111099367172613506788/DRGWDURANGOYARDJULY1960#5502872322816364514

        To see several 800 series drop bottoms in use in 1960 in a color photo, go to:

        http://picasaweb.google.com/111099367172613506788/DRGWDURANGOYARDJULY1960#5502871498556613906

        With best regards, Hart
        _______________________________________

        <<< Re: Drop bottom gondolas
        Posted by: "jlyans" lyans@... jlyans
        Date: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:50 pm ((PDT))


        Maybe I'm wrong but I think that a lot of folks would love to see the 700 series car. It has always been my favorite gondola and I have built several of them in HOn3 and 1:20.3. Looking through the Robert Grandt, "Narrow Gauge Pictorial" Vol. 3, it looks as if a number of the low sided, 700 series cars survived into the 1950's, 60's and 70's. I hope that Blackstone decides to make that version in the future.

        John Lyans >>>
      • Tom Lawhorn
        Your photos clearly shows the primary distinguishing feature between the 700 and 800 series gons. Many say the difference is the number of sideboards (i.e.
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Your photos clearly shows the primary distinguishing feature between the 700
          and 800 series gons. Many say the difference is the number of sideboards
          (i.e. height). Actually as built this was true - but over time a number of
          700 cars had a fifth board attached ( cf. 702, 705, 746, 779, 786). The real
          feature is the outside corner braces (or brackets), which were only applied
          to the 700 cars - structural changes on the 800 cars obviated these.



          Tom



          From: HOn3@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HOn3@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hart
          Corbett

          Subject: [HOn3] Re: Drop bottom gondolas

          To see a 700 series drop bottom in use in 1960 in a color photo, go to:

          http://picasaweb.google.com/111099367172613506788/DRGWDURANGOYARDJULY1960#55
          02872322816364514

          To see several 800 series drop bottoms in use in 1960 in a color photo, go
          to:

          http://picasaweb.google.com/111099367172613506788/DRGWDURANGOYARDJULY1960#55
          02871498556613906

          With best regards, Hart
          _______________________________________







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Stutz
          ... The D&RG 700 s were originally coal gons with a 4x10 side sill and three 2.5x10 side boards, with inside and outside splice plates holding the corners in
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom Lawhorn wrote:
            >
            > Your photos clearly shows the primary distinguishing feature between the 700
            > and 800 series gons. Many say the difference is the number of sideboards
            > (i.e. height). Actually as built this was true - but over time a number of
            > 700 cars had a fifth board attached ( cf. 702, 705, 746, 779, 786). The real
            > feature is the outside corner braces (or brackets), which were only applied
            > to the 700 cars - structural changes on the 800 cars obviated these.

            The D&RG 700's were originally coal gons with a 4x10" side sill and
            three 2.5x10" side boards, with inside and outside splice plates
            holding the corners in alignment. The 800's were coke gons with a
            high open top rack, extending about 1' above boxcar adjacent roofs.
            See Dorman's books covering Chama and Alamosa for photos both near and
            far. The 800's had the same 40" solid sides as the 700's, below the
            racks, but their corner posts allowed use of simple vertical straps at
            the corners. The corner differences persisted throughout the two
            classes life. Many of both classes were later extended with an
            additional 6" side board, supported by a mix of longer or spliced
            inside posts, very like the high side gons but not so visible. On
            800's the inside posts were of constant cross section, while the 700's
            originally had tapered posts.

            So with respect to accurate RTR cars, the 700's will require
            significant new investment. As would the short side version of
            either, although one might get by with cutting down the extended
            versions. Or consider the Grandt kit, which could be built as any of
            the four versions that followed the 1920's rebuild program.

            John Stutz
          • Mark
            John, Some clarification here please. I ve built both Grandt Line high sided Drop bottom and the lower version too WITHOUT realising the difference until they
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              John,

              Some clarification here please. I've built both Grandt Line high sided Drop bottom and the lower version too WITHOUT realising the difference until they were finished. What have I built? I thought I had 700 (low sided) and 800 (High sided) db gons. None are numbered yet I am glad to say.

              Mark

              > Or consider the Grandt kit, which could be built as any of
              > the four versions that followed the 1920's rebuild program.
              >
              > John Stutz
              >
            • Mike Conder
              Asking a generic question, what differences are there in the 800's before & after the rebuilds in the '20's? Mike Conder [Non-text portions of this
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Asking a generic question, what differences are there in the 800's before & after the rebuilds in the '20's?

                Mike Conder

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Stutz
                Mark wrote ... The HOn3 Grandt D&RGW drop bottom kit of circa 1970 was apparently designed to be built up as any one of the post 1920 s rebuilds: 700 s or
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mark wrote

                  > Some clarification here please. I've built both Grandt Line high sided
                  > Drop bottom and the lower version too WITHOUT realising the difference
                  > until they were finished. What have I built? I thought I had 700 (low
                  > sided) and 800 (High sided) db gons. None are numbered yet I am glad to say.
                  >
                  > Mark
                  >
                  > > Or consider the Grandt kit, which could be built as any of
                  > > the four versions that followed the 1920's rebuild program.

                  The HOn3 Grandt D&RGW drop bottom kit of circa 1970 was apparently
                  designed to be built up as any one of the post 1920's rebuilds: 700's
                  or 800's, and with or without side extension.

                  The 700's were built as 40" inside depth coal cars. The 800's were
                  coke cars, with similar 40" deep solid sides, and fixed coke racks
                  extending about 7' clear of the floor. When the coke traffic died out
                  the 800's were cut down, mostly to 46" stakes with a 6" side board
                  added. Some (most?) 700's were similarly extended, using short splice
                  stakes to support the 6" extension boards, very like on the high side
                  gons. So I believe that most low cars were 700's, while most 800's
                  were high cars, but not all for either class. The main external
                  difference is the corner bracing, with inside and outside plates on
                  the 700's, while the 800's had bolts through vertical straps and the
                  corner posts. The main changes from the 1920's rebuilding were the
                  addition of full length steel channel draft sills, sandwiched between
                  the quadruple center sill timbers where they are quite invisible in
                  unburnt cars, and the addition of steel braces to several of the inner
                  cross beams. These were the reason so few wore out in service, short
                  of severe damage in accidents.

                  Take a good look at the photos and drawings of these cars in Sloan's
                  D&RGW Freight Car book, noting that one page of drawings shows cars
                  with Kadee couplers, and that some photo captions interchange the two
                  classes. Sloan did not include general arrangement drawings of the
                  early coke version. Those were available from the Maxwell Collection,
                  prior to Bruce Maxwell's death, and may be again. Bob Grandt's Narrow
                  Gauge Pictorial series also has good photo coverage.

                  The Grandt kit's sides come with the extension boards, and both sides
                  and ends come with the 800 series vertical end straps. Either or both
                  can be removed. The 700 series inside and outside corner irons are
                  provided as separate parts. The kit's side stakes are the 700 series
                  short tapered 40" stake style, which was probably also used on some
                  rebuilt 800s. These required short auxiliary stake to support the
                  extension board. Hart's photos clearly show the outer strap and bolt
                  heads for some of these on 800's, but also show that some 800's still
                  had full length 46" stakes in the 1960s, possibly cut down from the
                  original ~7' long tapered coke rack stakes, with both styles on a
                  single car. So the inside stakes share the sort of variety seen with
                  the high side gon's stakes, although not so obviously.

                  Cliff only missed a couple points on this kit. He made the side sills
                  the same thickness as the side planks, when they were actually 4x10
                  timbers instead of 2.5x10 planks. And the 800's need a corner post
                  inside of the corners to give the corner bolts a purchase. But both
                  are easily fixed while assembling the kit, and most of us would never
                  notice their lack. Coupler mounting can be a bit fiddly, if you do
                  not want to glue the box in, but a fixed locating post and bottom
                  clamp arrangement works well. And weighting is a problem. I have
                  used lots of short strips of sheet lead fitted around the center
                  sills, but empty cars are still lighter than I would like.

                  John Stutz
                • Mike Conder
                  I think the 2nd edition has a drawing of the early coke cars.  I m interested in building one, and it sounds like externally there s little difference
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 1, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think the 2nd edition has a drawing of the early coke cars.  I'm interested in
                    building one, and it sounds like externally there's little difference between
                    the earlt & modern, other than the 6" board and lake of coke sides & running
                    board & "V" down the middle of the car?
                     Mike Conder

                    John Stutz wrote:
                     
                    > Take a good look at the photos and drawings of these cars in Sloan's D&RGW
                    >Freight Car book, noting that one page of drawings shows cars
                    >
                    with Kadee couplers, and that some photo captions interchange the two classes. 
                    Sloan did not include general arrangement drawings of the

                    early coke version. 

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • rgs20@icehouse.net
                    Take a good look at photos and the drawings in the revised second edition of Sloan s book. There are substantial differences in the mechanical design of the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Take a good look at photos and the drawings in the revised second edition
                      of Sloan's book. There are substantial differences in the mechanical
                      design of the dump mechanisms and the flooring of the cars as built and as
                      rebuilt - in 1918 and as rebuilt again in 1926. Starting with the Grandt
                      kit, or a ready to run car may not be the easiest way of getting either
                      700s or 800s in their as built version. I think if I wanted an as built
                      car, I would probably start with the trucks, couplers and scale lumber,
                      and go from there.

                      As originally constructed, the operating gear for the doors was in the
                      center of the cars, under an A-frame along the center of the car.
                      Operating levers were located at one end only. The operating mechanics
                      were complicated and frequently broke or needed adjustment, so the design
                      was modified in 1918, placing the operating rods and chains along the
                      outside of the car. The A-frame was eliminated and a flat floor at the
                      center of the car was installed. The 1926 rebuilding included some
                      additional steel reinforcing and minor improvements to the operating
                      mechanism.

                      Charlie Mutschler
                      -30-

                      > I think the 2nd edition has a drawing of the early coke cars.  I'm
                      > interested in
                      > building one, and it sounds like externally there's little difference
                      > between
                      > the earlt & modern, other than the 6" board and lake of coke sides &
                      > running
                      > board & "V" down the middle of the car?
                      >  Mike Conder
                      >
                      > John Stutz wrote:
                      >  
                      >> Take a good look at the photos and drawings of these cars in Sloan's
                      >> D&RGW
                      >>Freight Car book, noting that one page of drawings shows cars
                      >>
                      > with Kadee couplers, and that some photo captions interchange the two
                      > classes. 
                      > Sloan did not include general arrangement drawings of the
                      >
                      > early coke version. 
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • John Stutz
                      ... Inclusion in Sloan s second edition makes the coke car general arrangement drawing much more accessible. So perhaps we will see a few models next year?
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mike Conder wrote:
                        >
                        > I think the 2nd edition has a drawing of the early coke cars. I'm
                        > interested in building one, and it sounds like externally there's
                        > little difference between the early & modern, other than the 6"
                        > board and lake of coke sides & running board & "V" down the middle
                        > of the car?

                        Inclusion in Sloan's second edition makes the coke car general
                        arrangement drawing much more accessible. So perhaps we will see a
                        few models next year? This is not one that Blackstone will be doing,
                        since the coke racks were cut down very early. Do you know when CF&I
                        began building byproduct coke ovens at Pubelo? That would be when the
                        Colorado market for mine site coke production took a fatal blow.
                        Circa 1910 would be my guess, since I have a circa 1900 ICS textbook
                        that indicates byproduct coking was already a well developed
                        technology, despite domination of the industry by beehive plants.

                        I think the most important difference in appearance between the
                        original and revised D&RG drop bottoms is due to the dump mechanism,
                        which is largely concealed in the cars as built and initially
                        operated. With smooth sides they looked very different, with or
                        without coke racks. The operating arrangements are also quite
                        different, being intended to be worked from on top of the cars. See
                        the car diagrams in Sloan's books. The coke car diagram's end view
                        shows raised top operating levers that Bob mistook for roof hatch
                        profiles.

                        Dorman included two versions of a wide area photo of the Alamosa Shops
                        with a coke car in the foreground, one as a closeup. He has another
                        taken of the Chama yards, looking north towards the coal pockets, by a
                        photographer standing on a coke car's running board, with another coke
                        car partially visible on the right. These are the clearest photos I
                        can recall. These, with the GA drawing, should make altering the
                        Grandt kits fairly straightforward.

                        John
                      • Hart Corbett
                        Tom and all: I m glad that my two incidental photos of 50 years ago provoked a discussion of the details! I ve learned a lot about the drop bottom gons and am
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Tom and all:

                          I'm glad that my two incidental photos of 50 years ago provoked a discussion of the details! I've learned a lot about the drop bottom gons and am saving the detailed comments for future reference.

                          With best regards, Hart
                          _____________________________________________________________

                          <<< Re: Drop bottom gondolas
                          Posted by: "Tom Lawhorn" t.lawhorn@... western_hostler
                          Date: Wed Sep 1, 2010 11:42 am ((PDT))

                          Your photos clearly shows the primary distinguishing feature between the 700
                          and 800 series gons. Many say the difference is the number of sideboards
                          (i.e. height). Actually as built this was true - but over time a number of
                          700 cars had a fifth board attached ( cf. 702, 705, 746, 779, 786). The real
                          feature is the outside corner braces (or brackets), which were only applied
                          to the 700 cars - structural changes on the 800 cars obviated these.



                          Tom >>>
                        • westernriverrr
                          ... Sitting in the Blackstone clinic in St Louis as I type this - Jeff with Blackstone just commented that a 700 series has been considered and could be done
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Mark Breznay <sundayniagara@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I believe the info is on the Blackstone site.
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 8/31/10, John Lyans <lyans@...> wrote:
                            > Does anyone know if Blackstone is going to release the drop-bottom gondolas in the older, low side version, (four boards per side)? Thanks, John Lyans
                            >

                            Sitting in the Blackstone clinic in St Louis as I type this - Jeff with Blackstone just commented that a 700 series has been considered and could be done "later on" but at the moment they are focused on 800 re-releases and other products.

                            Hope this helps!
                            Josh
                          • Mike Conder
                            Were the coke sides removed when the opening mechanisms were moved to the car outsides?  Mike Conder ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 2, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Were the coke sides removed when the opening mechanisms were moved to the car
                              outsides?
                               Mike Conder

                              Charlie Mutschler wrote:

                              > As originally constructed, the operating gear for the doors was in the center
                              >of the cars,... the design was modified in 1918, placing the operating rods and
                              >chains along the outside of the car. The A-frame was eliminated and a flat floor
                              >at the center of the car was installed.
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • rgs20@icehouse.net
                              Yes. In 1918 the 800s were rebuilt by removing the coke racks, and changing the door mechanism to that being used on the rebuilt 700s. At the same time the 6
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 3, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yes. In 1918 the 800s were rebuilt by removing the coke racks, and
                                changing the door mechanism to that being used on the rebuilt 700s. At
                                the same time the 6 inch board was added to the sides, giving the 800s the
                                higher sides than the 700s.

                                I am guessing that Colorado Fuel & Iron was moving away from coke
                                production near the mines, and was producing the coke it needed at the
                                steel mill by 1918. Photos of the as built 800s in service are quite
                                scarce.

                                Charlie Mutschler
                                -30-

                                > Were the coke sides removed when the opening mechanisms were moved to the
                                > car
                                > outsides?
                                >  Mike Conder
                                >
                                > Charlie Mutschler wrote:
                                >
                                >> As originally constructed, the operating gear for the doors was in the
                                >> center
                                >>of the cars,... the design was modified in 1918, placing the operating
                                >> rods and
                                >>chains along the outside of the car. The A-frame was eliminated and a
                                >> flat floor
                                >>at the center of the car was installed.
                                >>
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                              • Mike Conder
                                I was hoping that there were a few cars with coke racks and the outside mechanisms, sounds like there weren t. Other info: According to the recent CRRM annual
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 3, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I was hoping that there were a few cars with coke racks and the outside
                                  mechanisms, sounds like there weren't.

                                  Other info: According to the recent CRRM annual on coking etc., Pueblo (CF&I)
                                  always had coking but they expanded in 1918, and a half a dozen coke ovens
                                  closed down in 1918.  But a number stayed open.  Remember that coke was also
                                  used in metal ore smelting.
                                   Mike Conder



                                  Yes. In 1918 the 800s were rebuilt by removing the coke racks, and
                                  changing the door mechanism to that being used on the rebuilt 700s. At
                                  the same time the 6 inch board was added to the sides, giving the 800s the
                                  higher sides than the 700s.

                                  I am guessing that Colorado Fuel & Iron was moving away from coke
                                  production near the mines, and was producing the coke it needed at the
                                  steel mill by 1918. Photos of the as built 800s in service are quite
                                  scarce.

                                  Charlie Mutschler
                                  -30-

                                  > Were the coke sides removed when the opening mechanisms were moved to the
                                  > car
                                  > outsides?
                                  >  Mike Conder
                                  >
                                  > Charlie Mutschler wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> As originally constructed, the operating gear for the doors was in the
                                  >> center
                                  >>of the cars,... the design was modified in 1918, placing the operating
                                  >> rods and
                                  >>chains along the outside of the car. The A-frame was eliminated and a
                                  >> flat floor
                                  >>at the center of the car was installed.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Stutz
                                  ... Very much so! I ve picked up coke samples along both the Morenci Southern and the United Verde & Pacific, both built to copper camps. But CF&I was
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 3, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Mike Conder wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Other info: According to the recent CRRM annual on coking etc.,
                                    > Pueblo (CF&I) always had coking but they expanded in 1918, and a
                                    > half a dozen coke ovens closed down in 1918. But a number stayed
                                    > open. Remember that coke was also used in metal ore smelting.

                                    Very much so! I've picked up coke samples along both the Morenci
                                    Southern and the United Verde & Pacific, both built to copper camps.

                                    But CF&I was probably the largest coke user in the region, with a very
                                    large iron smelting plant at Pubelo. They could take advantage of the
                                    new byproduct coking technology, extracting and selling a range of
                                    volatiles that the traditional mine side beehive ovens wasted. This
                                    made it more economical to ship coal to Pubelo, and similar plants,
                                    than to coke at mine side and ship the low density coke to large
                                    smelters. Of course, the smaller smelters continued to purchase coke
                                    from the mine side plants, but the biggest purchaser was out of the
                                    market, with coke traffic falling and coal traffic rising along with
                                    total tonnage. So D&RG cut down their coke racks, after adding
                                    another half board to ensure full rated coal tonnage in the rebuilt cars.

                                    John
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.