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Re: [HOn3] Re: enough of the locktite, geeze! any what HOn3 brass is good?

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  • Dale Buxton
    I think it is important to inject here that the Balboa and NJ HOn3 C-21’s where both made by Katsumi. NJ somehow got the rights to import these models when
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
      I think it is important to inject here that the Balboa and NJ HOn3 C-21’s where both made by Katsumi. NJ somehow got the rights to import these models when Balboa closed it’s doors. The Balboa version is more of a composite of No’s 360 and 361. While NJ actually had Katsumi do the individual tenders and details specific to No’s 360 and 361. Both models have the same exact mechanical problems in design and execution though. The biggest of which is that the counter weight/crankpin connections were soldered on they axle ends and not pressed on. Those solder joints kept breaking loose because of other poor design choices at Katsumi. Like the following: The frames flexed too much; The driver springs were too stiff; The pillow blocks on the axles were round and really should have been square to keep those springs better aligned; The cover plates that held the drivers in the frame where too soft and flexed too much; The rubber tube between the motor
      shaft and gearbox shaft was too stiff; The motor had three or four mounting screws. If any of these started to move out of perfect alignment the resulting bind would almost always bust those soldered crankpin connections loose.

      There was a guy (Tom Napp) from Boulder, CO that used work in an aerospace lab, I think it was Ball Aerospace. He had access to fancy tools and equipment that most of us never will and he used to rebuild these models with can motors and would braze the crankpin connections on with silver solder. He used to advertise this in the Gazette about 25 plus years a go. If you have a Balboa or NJ C-21 that is rebuilt with a can motor and it runs smoothly there is a very good chance Tom rebuilt it.

      After reading Jim Vail’s tune up points on the PSC C-21’s it becomes clear to me that those models really were pointed directly at the collectors and no one else. Especially not operators! To be begin with, there were only 42 of each engine produced. There were also numerous little fiddley-bits of detail parts that made collectors go Oooo and Ahhh but many of those parts were just oversize enough or hanging in places that made operation almost impossible and electrical shorts that would make a guy want to pitch rocks at them. From what I hear though, if you have great patience and electo-mechanical skills, they can be made to run quite smoothly but are seriously under powered. Nope… These are collectors models and not ones for operators.

      Dale
    • ebt18
      Dale, What would you recommend for RPM on a coreless motor with gearhead? When I shop for can motors, they provide the RPM but I don t know enough about motor
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
        Dale,

        What would you recommend for RPM on a coreless motor with gearhead?
        When I shop for can motors, they provide the RPM but I don't know
        enough about motor speed to make a good decision.

        Russ

        --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Dale Buxton <the_one_tuatha_ddana@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > This is where mating a coreless with a gear-head came in. By mating a
        gear-head to the coreless motor, the motor was able to be powered up to
        it’s most efficient RPM and the output shaft could be made to work at
        a slower RPM than the motor would normally work at efficiently. These a
        ranges of RPM’s at the output shaft are far slower than Pitman’s
        and can motors ever imagined working at.
        >
        >
      • ebt18
        I have three Hallmark brass EBT engines -- #14, #18 and the M-1 motorcar. The steamers have a reputation for being good runners, even though they were
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
          I have three Hallmark brass EBT engines -- #14, #18 and the M-1
          motorcar. The steamers have a reputation for being good runners, even
          though they were imported 20 years ago. I would agree with the
          sentiment here expressed that you have to pick and choose your brass --
          but in some cases (like the EBT) you really only have one other choice,
          and that's to build your own. I don't see Blackstone manufacturing any
          of the EBT mikados in this lifetime.

          Russ

          --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Jim Vail <akacoot@...> wrote:
          >
          > Totally wrong on that one. Much of the old brass locomotives by
          > Westside, PSC, Overland, etc. runs smooth, quiet and out pulls the
          newer
          > composite construction locomotives. The new ready-to-run locomotives
          > are great - and I have and run quite a few. But the older brass
          > locomotives are great too (and I also run many of those.). They are
          all
          > good locomotives and they all have their proper place on a running
          model
          > railroad.
          >
        • John Stutz
          ... Depends on how fast you want to go, and how big a motor you can fit in. Small short ones tend to go faster, while fat long ones tend to run slower.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
            ebt18 wrote:
            >
            > Dale,
            >
            > What would you recommend for RPM on a coreless motor with gearhead?
            > When I shop for can motors, they provide the RPM but I don't know
            > enough about motor speed to make a good decision.
            >
            > Russ
            >









            Depends on how fast you want to go, and how big a motor you can fit
            in. Small short ones tend to go faster, while fat long ones tend to
            run slower.

            Faulhaber micromotor specs are at
            http://www.faulhaber-group.com/n110828/n.html -> products -> coreless motors

            As an example, suppose you have 44 inch diameter drivers and want to do
            40mph at 12V. One mile per hour is 88ft per minute. You want an axle
            rpm equal to the speed in feet per minutes, divided by driver
            circumference in feet: (88 * 40 ) / ( 3.14 * 44/12) = 306rpm. It is
            the same calculation for real feet or scale feet, so long as you
            consistently use one or the other. Now assume this is an old PFM K,
            with their standard 30:1 worm drive. You want a worm shaft speed of 306
            * 30 = 9080. For useful size Faulhabers, the no-load speeds run from
            8000 to 16000rpm, and you can expect to make 80-90% of no-load speed at
            the rated voltage under load, so a 1331 or 1524, directly coupled,
            should do nicely. These are nominal speeds for the size families.
            Check the specification sheets for actual 12V motor no-load speeds.

            Gearheads only come into play if you want significantly lower top
            speeds, or are limited to the smaller motors or to low final worm
            ratios. There the problem is the lower limit on gearhead ratios: 3.45:1
            for the offset spur gearheads, 4:1 for planetary gearheads, and 6.3:1
            for centered spur gearheads. It can be hard to get a fast enough over
            the track speed, without going to a very fast motor and potentially very
            noisy gearhead. The NWSL 50:1 gearbox may be a big help here, at
            least for the smaller motors. Note that the spur gearheads slip over
            the motors, adding about 1mm to the overall diameter. The NWSL 15:1
            Flea gearbox may also be of use.

            A better solution may be to go to a 15V or 24V rated motor. Coreless
            motor speeds are very linear with the applied voltage, so one rated at
            10,000rpm at 15V will do about 8,000rpm at 12V, and it won't be
            overloaded if you actually have 14V on the track. You won't be running
            at maximum efficiency, but these things draw very small currents, and so
            long as you use the largest that will fit into your engine, overloading
            is unlikely. With direct drives, an idler gearbox that places the
            motor level, will allow putting flywheels on the worm shaft. Also, with
            direct drives it will be a good idea to use a shaft coupling that allows
            for lengthwise relative motion, since the motor bearings are not
            intended to stand up to worm thrusts.

            Sources are a problem. You can buy OEM, but prices are high. Steffen
            at Stoner Creek offers a considerable range of conversions designed for
            specific HOn3 and HO engines, some bare and some with gearheads, and
            most with flywheels on extended motor shafts. He is the only source I
            know of for the double shafted Faulhabers. The Schwendlers at
            Coronado Scale Models in Phoenix once stocked and may still handle
            Faulhabers, and should be considered if you want to specify your own.
            Roundbell now has several conversion sets available, some of which can
            doubtless be adapted to other locomotives. His are all direct drive,
            using voltage de-rating to get a good speed range. Motorman offers a
            variable range of surplus micromotors from a variety of sources. he
            also offers to rebuild gearheads for specific ratios. Nigel Lawton
            (England) offers his own line of 6 and 10 mm motors suitable for very
            small equipment. His web site describes some very interesting
            applications. And if you live in any of the high tech areas, it is
            well worthwhile to periodically check out the local surplus stores.
            Just make sure you know what you are buying before putting your money
            down. I have a bunch of 6V micromotors, if anyone is interested.

            John Stutz
          • Craig Symington
            Russ ... I created this tool for myself to help with this very question... http://www.riograndesouthern.com/RidgwayShops/DriveTrainCalc.aspx Craig Symington.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
              Russ

              > What would you recommend for RPM on a coreless motor with gearhead?
              > When I shop for can motors, they provide the RPM but I don't know
              > enough about motor speed to make a good decision.

              I created this tool for myself to help with this very question...

              http://www.riograndesouthern.com/RidgwayShops/DriveTrainCalc.aspx

              Craig Symington.
              http://www.riograndesouthern.com/
            • Dale Buxton
              Thanks Craig,   I just back channeled this very valuable and useful link to Russ. And thank you again for creating and sharing it!   Dale Buxton ... From:
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 2, 2008
                Thanks Craig,
                 
                I just back channeled this very valuable and useful link to Russ. And thank you again for creating and sharing it!
                 
                Dale Buxton

                --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Craig Symington <rgsnut@...> wrote:

                From: Craig Symington <rgsnut@...>
                Subject: [HOn3] Drivetrain Calculator
                To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 6:49 PM







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