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high bass speaker

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  • james hoffman
    I am going to try to install my first high bass speaker. My question is do I need to put in a tight enclosure or do I use the tender as the enclosure. A friend
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 1, 2008
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      I am going to try to install my first high bass speaker. My question
      is do I need to put in a tight enclosure or do I use the tender as the
      enclosure. A friend of mine has installed 2 in tight enclosuers andhas
      blowen both speakers. Jim
    • Laurie McLean
      G Day Jim. You didn t state what loco tender you were installing the High Bass speaker into? Doesn t really matter but I m presuming you have a 1.06 diameter
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 1, 2008
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        G'Day Jim. You didn't state what loco tender you were installing the
        High Bass speaker into? Doesn't really matter but I'm presuming you
        have a 1.06" diameter speaker, the smallest.
        Well, why don't you experiment with it & learn from the results as you
        go. Firstly don't make an enclosure, just bench-test the installation
        & have the speaker just sitting connected to the decoder on your work
        bench. All you need to do is have "jumper" wires from the tracks of
        your DCC to the bench. See how it sounds? Then make an enclosure for
        it out of material at least 1mm or more thick - styrene or rubberised
        cork or a plastic bottle cap - Still at the bench. If you experiment
        with the THICKNESS of the enclosure & any materials you can think of
        the more you will learn. Make the enclosure twice+ the size of speaker.
        This is miniature stuff we are dealing with & presuming you are using
        a Tsunami with a 1 watt amplifier we can't expect to get the same
        sounds as from our expensive hi-fi systems - it just models we are
        dealing with!

        A friend here in Australia received High Bass speakers from Litchfield
        Station with an imprint on the back of each HB speaker stating 1 watt -
        not 2 watt as advertised. If your friend who blew up his speakers
        received the 1 watt speakers then the sound will be terrible - you
        MUST get genuine QSI High Bass 2 WATT speakers. Check the print on the
        back of yours??? MUST BE 2 WATT.

        You can use the tender body as the enclosure for the smaller HOn3
        locos but personally I would not bother with a gasket seal between the
        body & the floor, just get the speaker face to have a nice flat
        seating onto the floor. I use medium density sponge placed on top of
        the magnet so when the body is replaced the sponge acts as a spring to
        gently force the speaker to sit with its face against the tender floor.

        Again, try it without drilling any holes through the tender floor, it
        can't hurt but you will experience what the sound is like. Then if you
        feel it necessary, drill just a couple of holes & try this & each time
        you will learn a little more. Hey, its fun doing this & YOU LEARN by
        teaching yourself.

        Once you have it right on the bench, then place it on the layout &
        enjoy the better sounds from these great new speakers.
        If I can be of further help please ask, I'm only too happy to try &
        give my thoughts on things. Each loco is different so don't fall for
        the trap of doing them all the same way!

        Your friend down-under,
        Laurie


        --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, "james hoffman" <james_hoffman@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am going to try to install my first high bass speaker. My question
        > is do I need to put in a tight enclosure or do I use the tender as
        the
        > enclosure. A friend of mine has installed 2 in tight enclosuers
        andhas
        > blowen both speakers. Jim
        >
      • railwayeng
        ... Why did he use 2 speakers? One of these new High Bass QSI speakers will be much louder than you want or need. Second... if he hooked it to a Tsunami, then
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 1, 2008
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          --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, "james hoffman" <james_hoffman@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am going to try to install my first high bass speaker. My question
          > is do I need to put in a tight enclosure or do I use the tender as the
          > enclosure. A friend of mine has installed 2 in tight enclosuers andhas
          > blowen both speakers. Jim
          >

          Why did he use 2 speakers? One of these new High Bass QSI
          speakers will be much louder than you want or need.
          Second... if he hooked it to a Tsunami, then he couldn't
          blow the speakers unless he hooked it up wrong.
          If he hooked the speakers in series, then he simply halved
          the sound from each speaker. If he hooked them parallel, then
          he loaded the Tsunami with only 4 ohms and could have blown
          the Tsunami.... not the speakers.

          Your not giving us enough info on your friends blown speakers.
          If he put the speakers in an enclosure that restricted their
          movement, then he TOTALLY defeated the speakers.
          These speakers move in and out way more than regular speakers.
          That's how they push more air and create more bass sound.
          If you restrict that movement, then why bother with these
          speakers?
          These are EXCELLENT speakers and a real improvement to
          the sound volume and quality of DCC decoder sounds.
          Your friend needs to figure out what he hooked up wrong.
          And then take them out of confinement and let them do their
          job.
          These speakers work just fine using the tender as the
          baffle box. You don't need to build anything else.
          Just be sure the speaker is facing down on the floor
          of the tender....NOT up through the coal load.
          Then make sure the speaker front and back are not restricted
          by any foreign objects.

          How could he possibly have blown these speakers?
          They will take up to 2 watts and most decoders will
          only put out 1 watt at best.
          I suspect we aren't getting the whole story.
          -Steve Hatch
        • railwayeng
          ... The best sound from any speaker, including the new High Bass, is to seal the front from the back. This is best done by using the floor of the tender and
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1, 2008
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            > --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, "james hoffman" <james_hoffman@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am going to try to install my first high bass speaker.


            The best sound from any speaker, including the new High Bass,
            is to seal the front from the back.
            This is best done by using the floor of the tender and then
            the shell of the tender as an enclosure.
            The speaker facing down through holes in the floor gives a
            better/louder/basier sound by resonating off the roadbed/scenery.
            The floor and tender shell, prevent the back side of the speaker
            sounds from canceling out the front sounds.
            So... ALWAYS mount the speaker this way if you can.
            The only other improvement you can make is to dampen the vibrations
            in the tender shell since it is thin metal.
            As Laurie says, you can do this with several methods as he
            has indicated. Sponge/cork/latex/etc. even electrical tape
            layer on the inside will dampen the "tinnie" sounds.
            But most of the time, the tender needs nothing more than to
            be bolted back down to the floor. This effectively prevents
            the reverse/canceling sounds off the back of the speaker from
            reaching around and "killing" our front sounds.
            Remember that every movement forward of the speaker cone,
            is matched by an equal and opposite movement in the other direction.
            That's why a speaker sitting alone on the bench will be VERY
            soft sounding. If you sit it on the bench, then sit it on a
            lumped up towel that surrounds the back and sides of the
            speaker. You will hear more of what the speaker actually sounds
            like.
            Also the towel will let the speaker cone move since it isn't
            air tight. If the back of the speaker is air tight (bad) then
            the cone is trying to move against air pressure and that will
            cancel some of it's sound.
            So we need the tender to be enclosed but not hermetically
            sealed. In other words a couple small holes to let out the
            air pressure is fine. Not too many.
            Yet we want the hole that the speaker sits over to be as
            big as the face of the cone if possible.
            So ideally we would have a 1 inch diameter hole with the
            speaker glued down over that hole covering it entirely.
            Then we have a couple little holes with our wires coming
            out to the loco to re-leave air pressure and the tender shell
            fastened down firmly to the floor.
            Optionally with a couple pieces of tape or cork on the inside
            sides of the tender to dampen the shell vibrations. Laurie uses
            a piece of foam in here which also works well.

            Be sure you hook the purple wires to the speaker...no others
            and make sure the speaker wires don't touch any grounded area
            ......that grounding could fry the speaker or decoder or both.

            I prefer to use a couple little dabs of rubber cement on the
            edge of the speaker to hold it firmly to the floor.
            Don't get any on the cone.
            I find there is less rattling of the tender from the speaker
            and thus better quality sound with the rubber cement.

            -Have fun.... hope this helps. I love the new sounds on my RR.

            -Stephen Hatch
          • Laurie McLean
            Heat is another matter I try & deal with - the heat given off by the Tsunami. The tiny transistors are working hard & generate heat so to get an area in a
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1, 2008
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              Heat is another matter I try & deal with - the heat given off by the
              Tsunami. The tiny transistors are working hard & generate heat so to
              get an area in a tender that allows holes to relieve this heat is
              something I try & do. (Drill holes for decoder)
              Space is the trick to manage here as the speaker needs to have an
              enclosure to cancel out the air movement at the back of the speaker
              yet a couple of holes to help air get to & from the decoder which
              gets hotter the longer we run the loco is a factor I try & deal
              with. On the Tsunami there is a big flat area which is where the
              transistors are & the heat generated, so try & have this against the
              brass tender wall or floor so the brass acts as a heat sink to help
              a little. (absorb some of the heat)

              I use rubberised cork to make a wall between the speaker & the
              decoder & I also use it as a sound absorber / anti harmonic
              vibrations material too.

              The new Micro Tsunami has allowed the smaller HOn3 locos to be able
              to have sound (decoder & speaker fit in tiny tenders) & these are
              terrific. Steve Hatch put me onto the QSI High Bass speakers which
              are 2 watt & these are just the best deep sounds that are soooo good
              to listen to. You must be very careful grinding the sides of these
              speakers so that the metal & plastic frame holding the speaker
              proper don't let it colapse. I grind a tiny bit of the brass tender
              shell walls so that a very thin piece of insulation tape can be
              placed on the sides to prevent the resonating vibrations of the
              speaker touching the brass tender - tricky work but very do-able.

              Now, separating the speaker & enclosure from the Tsunami all inside
              the tender - well this is a case-by-case thing. I usually fit the
              speaker under the coal load so I can get the height of the speaker
              inside the tender - the coal load can be raised. This then leaves
              the rear section water tank area for the decoder. On C-Class & using
              the M/Tsu's the wires lengths are just a bit short sometimes running
              to the loco (motor & lights wires) so you need to make a terminal &
              run extra wires as needed. I have found a little strip of PCB works
              & it makes it easy for maintenance - just unsolder the wires if
              required.

              Steve has his HB speaker photos previously placed here & I have a
              couple of articles with photos & how the r/cork is used as a wall
              (see Laurie's University in Files)
              Steves info is spot-on, go with it.

              Your friend down-under,
              Laurie
            • james hoffman
              Laurie and Steve thanks for help with high bass speaker. the blowen speakers were two seperate installs in the same engine. they were installed with the side
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 2, 2008
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                Laurie and Steve thanks for help with high bass speaker. the blowen
                speakers were two seperate installs in the same engine. they were
                installed with the side and back enclosed . I plan to replace a
                speaker in a K37 with the 1.03 speaker. since the tender is larger than
                a c16 should i put enclosure around speaker leaving front and back
                open. Jim
              • Laurie McLean
                Hi Jim, you must enclose the air behind any speaker. For the K37, which has a large area inside the tender you will need to use half of it for the speaker
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  Hi Jim, you must enclose the air behind any speaker. For the K37,
                  which has a large area inside the tender you will need to use half
                  of it for the speaker sealing off the area behind the speaker. The
                  other half will have the decoder (Tsunami 750 I suggest). You stated
                  1.03" the QSI are exactly 1.06" dia - 30 thow difference is a lot -
                  check it.
                  You could get an enclosure to suit the QSI HB speaker from TTX.
                  Read the information on TTX site as it explains things about the
                  enclosures & suggested area sizes, too much to discuss here.
                  I do suggest you experiment on the workbench & before drilling too
                  many holes test each step that you do - you will learn so much about
                  sound & what is good & bad, do please try experimenting.
                  If you get to a stage where you are worried about a particular thing
                  then post here & we'll try & walk you through it.
                  On the HOn3 chat site I did a series of articles for a friend in a
                  step-by-step to install a tsunami into a MMI k-27 with a HB speaker,
                  this may help you also its put in a way for beginners - check the
                  files there.
                  Good luck & good on you for giving it a go!

                  Laurie


                  "james hoffman" <james_hoffman@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Laurie and Steve thanks for help with high bass speaker. the
                  blowen
                  > speakers were two seperate installs in the same engine. they were
                  > installed with the side and back enclosed . I plan to replace a
                  > speaker in a K37 with the 1.03 speaker. since the tender is larger
                  than
                  > a c16 should i put enclosure around speaker leaving front and back
                  > open. Jim
                  >
                • Laurie McLean
                  Jim, I just added 2 photos showing the rubberised cork I use to make the enclosure & separate the decoder area. See photos - Laurie s DCC.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 2, 2008
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                    Jim, I just added 2 photos showing the rubberised cork I use to make
                    the enclosure & separate the decoder area. See photos - Laurie's DCC.
                  • Mark Kasprowicz
                    Jim, The reason for separating the front of the speaker from the back is to prevent out-of- phase sounds from the back of the cone, canceling out the in-phase
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 2, 2008
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                      Jim,

                      The reason for separating the front of the speaker from the back is to prevent out-of-
                      phase sounds from the back of the cone, canceling out the in-phase ones at the front.
                      This is known as comb filter cancellation, it affect mainly the lower notes, the very ones
                      we are trying to propagate and you can demonstrate it yourself as Steve Hatch suggested
                      by lying the speaker on a towel or more simply wrapping your fist round the edge of the
                      speaker. So to separate the two sides the idea is to use an infinitely large baffle or piece of
                      wood so that the front and back waves never meet. Of course, that is impossible to
                      achieve so the next best thing is to seal the front from the back using a box. But how big?

                      A speaker has what is known as a resonant frequency below which the bass response will
                      reduce or roll off. A sealed box will trap the air inside and create an air spring which the
                      cone will have to work against. If the box is big then this won't have any real effect on the
                      frequency but if the box is small it will raise the resonant frequency and therefore
                      diminish the bass response. So it follows that the bigger the box, the better the bass.
                      That's something we all know anyway through HiFi speakers. So nothing new there. But
                      one way of making a small box sound bigger is to fill the box with a dampening material
                      such as foam or pillow filler - I use cotton wool. What this does is to relax the air spring
                      effect and lower the box resonant frequency. Note that I do not mention any form of tape
                      because this is merely another reflective surface - it has to absorb accoustic
                      energy for the effect to work.

                      OK so know we have the biggest box we can manage, filled with cotton wool. What else?
                      The seal of the speaker to the baffle is really important. I glue mine down and then seal the
                      edges for luck (probably overkill). But what about that cone moment. These super bass
                      units have an accoustic suspension and the cone travel is much bigger than on Kobitones
                      or anything else for that matter so you need to make a baffle out of styrene. Pointing up
                      or down? I know Steve is adamant on this and I agree but perhaps for different reason. The
                      floor is the stiffest part of the tender and I think that makes a real difference.

                      How good a seal? The best you can manage. On a real sealed box, you have to drill A tiny
                      hole to equalise the inside with atmospheric pressure - I don't thing we'll achieve that
                      kind of seal here.

                      Finally Heat. I think the MMI K-27 has it right when it allowed the decoder to be fitted in
                      the boiler. The big disadvantage of filling the tender with pillow filler is getting air
                      circulation for the decoder to keep cool. but on balance it sounds heaps better.

                      This whole thing is a voyage of discovery and a great deal has to be found ut yet dealing
                      with these miniature sizes. We're just starting off on the trip.

                      Mark
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