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Re: [HOn3] Re: LED's and Tortoise machines

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  • Andy Reichert
    You should ALWAYS isolate the frog (cut gaps) if you are going to power it from a separate switch or contacts. None of those other problems can then occur.
    Message 1 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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      You should ALWAYS isolate the frog (cut gaps) if you are going to power
      it from a separate switch or contacts. None of those other problems can
      then occur.

      Andy

      www.proto87.com

      Mark Kasprowicz wrote:

      >>Andy - I use the 'dual power supply' and DPDT switches. One side
      >>throws the Tortoise and the other side routes to power to the frog.
      >>Wiring is quite simple that way.
      >
      >
      > Ted,
      >
      > Not sure about that. Consider this. The Tortoise has it's own DPDT
      > switch built in. So the polarity of the frog can be switched from
      > right underneath the turnout without having to trail wires all the way
      > from the panel.
      > Secondly and this much more important for DCC users the Tortoise is a
      > slow motion motor. If the blades of your turnout are connected to the
      > frog, Shinohara etc, as you throw the switch to start the blades
      > moving you immediately change the frog polarity. If there is any
      > remaining contact between the blades and the rail, remember the
      > Tortoise is slow, there will be a short which in DCC will cause a
      > complete system shut down. The DPDT is just too quick on the polarity
      > change
      >
      > It's a common fault in DCC when a Tortoise is not positioned square
      > under the turnout or there is some mechanical resistance to the point
      > blade.
      >
      > Mark K
      >
      >
      >
    • Andy Reichert
      Then you just put the leds with resistor from the single switch contact to common (0 v) instead. Andy www.proto87.com
      Message 2 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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        Then you just put the leds with resistor from the single switch contact
        to "common" (0 v) instead.

        Andy

        www.proto87.com

        Mark Kasprowicz wrote:

        >>No. Not if you put the LED/resistor pair separately across the DPDT
        >>output pins.
        >
        > Andy,
        > That will work if you use a DPDT switch to change the polarity and two
        > leads from the switch to the Tortoise. But the circuit that I am
        > advocating uses one wire from the panel and the LEDs in series with
        > one of the leads. No resistor, just the light emitting diodes.
        >
        > Mark
        >
        >
      • Andy Reichert
        In a two PS plus common return system, the motors are driven by the particular polarity of the split PS that the switch is conected to. Changing over the
        Message 3 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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          In a two PS plus common return system, the motors are driven by the
          particular polarity of the split PS that the switch is conected to.
          Changing over the polarity of one of the split power supplies (finally a
          use for a DPDT :) ) will over-ride ALL the switch settings to the
          direction set by the other PS. Eg +9, 0, +9 will set al the switches
          one way and -9, 0, -9v will set them all the other way.

          But the turnouts will go back to the individual switch settings when you
          restore the power as +9, 0, -9.

          So that would not be a reset, so much as a temporary overide, while
          someone went and set all the individual switches to the correct starting
          values. We'd have to have have normally open push buttons and stiff
          tortoise gearing or locking relays for it to be a true reset.

          I'm not doing it yet, but I'm going to try and have my Switch-master
          motors hold the points tightly even when the motor is not powered. I'll
          let everybody know if it works out OK :)

          Andy

          www.proto87.com

          Mark Kasprowicz wrote:

          >
          >
          >>I believe you can also add a single "ALL RESET" switch to set all the
          >>turnouts to the correct start position at the beginning and end of an
          >>ops session :).
          >
          > Andy,
          > Not like this as far as I can see. The switches are 'hard wired' to
          > the Tortoise and they continue to supply power to the stalled motor in
          > the position they are left in. So as long as the switch is in a
          > certain position the Tortoise will 'point' in that direction.
          > However, if you use a remote device like the DAQ10 (Tony's train
          > exchange) which can work via the DCC network as well as being operated
          > by a simple 'push to make' button on a panel you can incorporate a
          > single 'push to make' button to return everything to a certain state.
          > I have one DAQ10 in place but have never used the system although a
          > simple power recycled seems to achieve the same ends.
          >
          > Mark K
          >
        • Mark Kasprowicz
          Andy, Just another un-necessary lead. Wire it in series. Mark
          Message 4 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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            Andy,
            Just another un-necessary lead. Wire it in series.
            Mark
            --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Andy Reichert <andy_r@...> wrote:
            >
            > Then you just put the leds with resistor from the single switch contact
            > to "common" (0 v) instead.
            >
            > Andy
            >
            > www.proto87.com
            >
            > Mark Kasprowicz wrote:
            >
            > >>No. Not if you put the LED/resistor pair separately across the DPDT
            > >>output pins.
            > >
            > > Andy,
            > > That will work if you use a DPDT switch to change the polarity and two
            > > leads from the switch to the Tortoise. But the circuit that I am
            > > advocating uses one wire from the panel and the LEDs in series with
            > > one of the leads. No resistor, just the light emitting diodes.
            > >
            > > Mark
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Mark Kasprowicz
            Andy, Agree, but few do! Mark
            Message 5 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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              Andy,
              Agree, but few do!

              Mark

              --- In HOn3@yahoogroups.com, Andy Reichert <andy_r@...> wrote:
              >
              > You should ALWAYS isolate the frog (cut gaps) if you are going to power
              > it from a separate switch or contacts. None of those other problems can
              > then occur.
              >
              > Andy
              >
              > www.proto87.com
              >
              > Mark Kasprowicz wrote:
              >
              > >>Andy - I use the 'dual power supply' and DPDT switches. One side
              > >>throws the Tortoise and the other side routes to power to the frog.
              > >>Wiring is quite simple that way.
              > >
              > >
              > > Ted,
              > >
              > > Not sure about that. Consider this. The Tortoise has it's own DPDT
              > > switch built in. So the polarity of the frog can be switched from
              > > right underneath the turnout without having to trail wires all the way
              > > from the panel.
              > > Secondly and this much more important for DCC users the Tortoise is a
              > > slow motion motor. If the blades of your turnout are connected to the
              > > frog, Shinohara etc, as you throw the switch to start the blades
              > > moving you immediately change the frog polarity. If there is any
              > > remaining contact between the blades and the rail, remember the
              > > Tortoise is slow, there will be a short which in DCC will cause a
              > > complete system shut down. The DPDT is just too quick on the polarity
              > > change
              > >
              > > It's a common fault in DCC when a Tortoise is not positioned square
              > > under the turnout or there is some mechanical resistance to the point
              > > blade.
              > >
              > > Mark K
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Paul Richardson
              Mark K wrote... Secondly and this much more important for DCC users the Tortoise is a ...
              Message 6 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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                Mark K wrote...
                Secondly and this much more important for DCC users the Tortoise is a
                > > slow motion motor. If the blades of your turnout are connected to the
                > > frog, Shinohara etc, as you throw the switch to start the blades
                > > moving you immediately change the frog polarity. If there is any
                > > remaining contact between the blades and the rail, remember the
                > > Tortoise is slow, there will be a short which in DCC will cause a
                > > complete system shut down. The DPDT is just too quick on the polarity
                > > change
                ===========================================================================
                Losing the wimpy wire that comes with the Tortoise and replacing with
                .032 piano wire (music wire) will end that problem.

                Paul Richardson, MMR

                Ride the Purgatory online at:
                http://www.purgatoryanddevilriver.com

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              • Mark Kasprowicz
                Paul, In normal circumstances I would agree with you. In fact I upgraded my Tortoise wires after seeing your advice in the past - it works a treat, thank you
                Message 7 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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                  Paul,

                  In normal circumstances I would agree with you. In fact I upgraded my
                  Tortoise wires after seeing your advice in the past - it works a
                  treat, thank you for that advice. But in this instance, the polarity
                  is changed at exactly the same time as the motor is energised and I
                  don't think there is enough time for the blades to move away from the
                  rail so a DCC powered system will 'short' unless as Andy R has
                  suggested the frog is electrically separated from the blades. DC -
                  probably not affected in the slightest. It's a DCC thing which is
                  completely unforgiving given even the slightest of shorts.

                  Mark K
                  > Losing the wimpy wire that comes with the Tortoise and replacing with
                  > .032 piano wire (music wire) will end that problem.
                • Paul Richardson
                  We may not be talking about the same thing but I use Tortoise motors on my DCC layout and have never had a problem...since I went to the heavier wire. Before
                  Message 8 of 30 , Apr 2, 2007
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                    We may not be talking about the same thing but I use Tortoise motors on
                    my DCC layout and have never had a problem...since I went to the
                    heavier wire. Before that it was a nightmare. My frogs are not isolated
                    from the points.

                    Paul Richardson, MMR

                    Ride the Purgatory online at:
                    http://www.purgatoryanddevilriver.com

                    Please remember to sign the Guestbook

                    Enjoy twisted humor? Check out the News Stand!


                    Quoting Mark Kasprowicz <marowicz@...>:

                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > In normal circumstances I would agree with you. In fact I upgraded my
                    > Tortoise wires after seeing your advice in the past - it works a
                    > treat, thank you for that advice. But in this instance, the polarity
                    > is changed at exactly the same time as the motor is energised and I
                    > don't think there is enough time for the blades to move away from the
                    > rail so a DCC powered system will 'short' unless as Andy R has
                    > suggested the frog is electrically separated from the blades. DC -
                    > probably not affected in the slightest. It's a DCC thing which is
                    > completely unforgiving given even the slightest of shorts.
                    >
                    > Mark K
                    >> Losing the wimpy wire that comes with the Tortoise and replacing with
                    >> .032 piano wire (music wire) will end that problem.
                    >
                    >
                    >
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