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Brass Shay Recs

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  • Dan Robertson
    A rich relative of mine (yes, he s an uncle) has offered to purchase me any single loco I want for my logging layout in progress. Price is not a problem for
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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      A rich relative of mine (yes, he's an uncle) has offered to purchase me any
      single loco I want for my logging layout in progress. Price is not a
      problem for him. I don't want to waste this opportunity, so I'm looking for
      input on what you would consider the best small brass HOn3 shay I can get.
      Smooth, slow, prototypical operating speeds will be a must. I don't
      necessarily need something in production right now, as I would rather spend
      the time looking for the right one if needed.

      Thanks,

      Dan
    • Rick C Shoup
      Boy what a nice Uncle. Whenever you finely take him up on the offer say lots of your e-mail friends thank him for his generosity. Regards.......... Rick Shoup
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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        Boy what a nice Uncle. Whenever you finely take him up on the offer say
        lots of your e-mail friends thank him for his generosity.

        Regards.......... Rick Shoup


        On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:59:13 -0500 Dan Robertson <revoxman@...>
        writes:
        > From: Dan Robertson <revoxman@...>
        >
        > A rich relative of mine (yes, he's an uncle) has offered to purchase
        > me any
        > single loco I want for my logging layout in progress. Price is not a
        > problem for him. I don't want to waste this opportunity, so I'm
        > looking for
        > input on what you would consider the best small brass HOn3 shay I
        > can get.
        > Smooth, slow, prototypical operating speeds will be a must. I don't
        > necessarily need something in production right now, as I would
        > rather spend
        > the time looking for the right one if needed.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Dan
        >
        >
        >
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      • Edward Loechler
        ... I know you said Shay , but the new PSC WSLCo Heisler #2 (also #3) that I saw was an amazingly good runner. The one I saw, you could make the gear turn at
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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          Dan wrote:

          >the best small brass HOn3 shay I can get. Smooth, slow, prototypical
          >operating >speeds will be a must.

          I know you said "Shay", but the new PSC WSLCo Heisler #2 (also #3) that I
          saw was an amazingly good runner. The one I saw, you could make the gear
          turn at a really slow speed (maybe, the rate of speed you might expect of a
          really slow rod-loco to move), so the wheels themselves moved almost
          imperceptively and smoooooth! It was also very quiet. I am not an expert
          on this, but I was very impressed.

          Just a thought.
          Ed
        • John Stutz
          Dan So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. May have been some from Precision Scale. The PFM/MDC Shays are, as near as I can tell, OO
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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            Dan

            So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. May have been
            some from Precision Scale. The PFM/MDC Shays are, as near as I can tell, OO
            scale models. Thus they are about 50% oversize for an HO railroad, and really
            show it alongside HO scale models.

            The WestSide models come in two series. The early Shays used a vertical
            capstin drive through the 2'ed truck. Under load this tends to twist the
            driving truck off of the rails. The latter version used a horiziontal drive
            that eliminated the derailment problem, but used a noiser spur gear train to
            shift the drive line and reduce the shaft rpm. As best I recall, they did
            versions of WSLC 7, 8, 9, 14, 15, and The New Mexico Lumber Co 60-3 with plate
            frame and cast steel trucks. Perhaps also a ~50-2 of no particular prototype.
            I can't say which engines had which drive.

            John Stutz

            > From: Dan Robertson <revoxman@...>
            >
            > A rich relative of mine (yes, he's an uncle) has offered to purchase me any
            > single loco I want for my logging layout in progress. Price is not a
            > problem for him. I don't want to waste this opportunity, so I'm looking for
            > input on what you would consider the best small brass HOn3 shay I can get.
            > Smooth, slow, prototypical operating speeds will be a must. I don't
            > necessarily need something in production right now, as I would rather spend
            > the time looking for the right one if needed.
          • boone@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
            ... Not so, John. I have several of the 2-cyl Shays offered by Precision Scale and they are definately fine little machines. PSC is now offering a few other
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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              >From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
              >
              >Dan
              >
              >So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. May have been
              >some from Precision Scale. The PFM/MDC Shays are, as near as I can tell, OO
              >scale models. Thus they are about 50% oversize for an HO railroad, and really
              >show it alongside HO scale models.
              >

              Not so, John. I have several of the 2-cyl Shays offered by Precision Scale
              and they are definately fine little machines. PSC is now offering a few
              other Shays as well, though I have no further info on those.

              Balboa also imported Shays, as did Pacific Fast Mail, as you have said.

              I think if the writer looks around a bit he will find there are really
              quite a few choices in HOn3 Shays, but I would caution against an older one
              with high speed gears and an open frame motor...those definately will not
              fit his "smooth operation" criteria!

              Aloha, Boone
            • Rick C Shoup
              last year I sold my HOn3 NWSL 2 cylinder shay that would take 3 minutes to move 3 feet. It is listed in the Brown Book on page 123 as: A 18(tons) HOn3 NWSL
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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                last year I sold my HOn3 NWSL 2 cylinder shay that would take 3 minutes
                to move 3 feet. It is listed in the Brown Book on page 123 as:
                A 18(tons) HOn3 NWSL Sanko 300 (Quan) 73 (Year) 75 (Cost)
                290 (Mint) 260 (Ave) 2 cylinder. I sold it to a dealer for $400. Which
                means he sold it for $600-700.
                Regards.......... Rick Shoup


                On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:40:27 -0400 Edward Loechler <loechler@...>
                writes:
                > From: Edward Loechler <loechler@...>
                >
                > Dan wrote:
                >
                > >the best small brass HOn3 shay I can get. Smooth, slow,
                > prototypical
                > >operating >speeds will be a must.
                >
                > I know you said "Shay", but the new PSC WSLCo Heisler #2 (also #3)
                > that I
                > saw was an amazingly good runner. The one I saw, you could make the
                > gear
                > turn at a really slow speed (maybe, the rate of speed you might
                > expect of a
                > really slow rod-loco to move), so the wheels themselves moved almost
                > imperceptively and smoooooth! It was also very quiet. I am not an
                > expert
                > on this, but I was very impressed.
                >
                > Just a thought.
                > Ed
                >
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              • mrbnf@xxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxx.xxx
                Dan, I disagree with John. PFM made many HOn3 Shay locomotives. There were models imported by Balboa (KTM), Northwest Shortlines, PFM (Atlas-Asahi) and PFM
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 26, 1999
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                  Dan,
                  I disagree with John. PFM made many HOn3 Shay locomotives. There were models
                  imported by Balboa (KTM), Northwest Shortlines, PFM (Atlas-Asahi) and PFM
                  (United). KTM also made an HOn30 (2.5' between the rails). Some of the best
                  looking were the Westside Model shays, but they had a bad reputation as far as
                  their drive was concerned. They would run very smooth, and at a very slow speed.
                  The problem was that the bevel gear riding on the geared drive wheels would slip
                  after a few hours. This presented a problem that was hard to correct by the
                  average modeler. Now that I gave you the bad news about Westside's shays, I would
                  still say . . . . . . . . . .If you don't mind tinkering, I would suggest one of
                  the Westside Lumber Company shays made by Westside Models .

                  Talking about tinkering, I have three Joe Works HOn30 shays, and two Joe Works
                  HOn30 climax locomotives. It nearly takes as many modelers to keep them running
                  as it did to keep that many real locomotives running. Unfortunately, there is
                  very little choice in HOn30 shays.

                  Good luck,


                  Al Sandrini
                  B & F Hobby Shop


                  John Stutz wrote:

                  > From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                  >
                  > Dan
                  >
                  > So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. May have been
                  > some from Precision Scale. The PFM/MDC Shays are, as near as I can tell, OO
                  > scale models. Thus they are about 50% oversize for an HO railroad, and really
                  > show it alongside HO scale models.
                  >
                  > The WestSide models come in two series. The early Shays used a vertical
                  > capstin drive through the 2'ed truck. Under load this tends to twist the
                  > driving truck off of the rails. The latter version used a horiziontal drive
                  > that eliminated the derailment problem, but used a noiser spur gear train to
                  > shift the drive line and reduce the shaft rpm. As best I recall, they did
                  > versions of WSLC 7, 8, 9, 14, 15, and The New Mexico Lumber Co 60-3 with plate
                  > frame and cast steel trucks. Perhaps also a ~50-2 of no particular prototype.
                  > I can't say which engines had which drive.
                  >
                  > John Stutz
                  >
                  > > From: Dan Robertson <revoxman@...>
                  > >
                  > > A rich relative of mine (yes, he's an uncle) has offered to purchase me any
                  > > single loco I want for my logging layout in progress. Price is not a
                  > > problem for him. I don't want to waste this opportunity, so I'm looking for
                  > > input on what you would consider the best small brass HOn3 shay I can get.
                  > > Smooth, slow, prototypical operating speeds will be a must. I don't
                  > > necessarily need something in production right now, as I would rather spend
                  > > the time looking for the right one if needed.
                  >
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                • RoundBell@aol.com
                  In a message dated 7/26/99 11:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time, stutz@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov writes:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                    In a message dated 7/26/99 11:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
                    stutz@... writes:

                    << So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. >>
                    PFM built very fine HOn3 shays with the names; Herrington, Benson,Cowichan
                    and Mich-Cal #2 (oversize)etc. They are very dependable runners although
                    should have all wheel pickup added. Loco Doc
                  • Boone Morrison
                    ... I have the Benson and would suggest that the WSL re-gear setup is an essential element as well. As delivered the Benson is very fast, particularly in
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                      >From: RoundBell@...
                      >
                      >In a message dated 7/26/99 11:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
                      >stutz@... writes:
                      >
                      ><< So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. >>
                      >PFM built very fine HOn3 shays with the names; Herrington, Benson,Cowichan
                      >and Mich-Cal #2 (oversize)etc. They are very dependable runners although
                      >should have all wheel pickup added. Loco Doc
                      >

                      I have the Benson and would suggest that the WSL re-gear setup is an
                      essential element as well. As delivered the Benson is very fast,
                      particularly in comparison to my three newer PSC 2-cyl Shays. With the
                      suggested added electrical pickups and the re-gear kit this becomes a
                      beautiful runner.
                      As delivered the detailing is great and you can add all sorts of
                      "personality" with little effort. It is a beautiful engine.

                      Aloha, Boone
                    • Edward Loechler
                      Hi All: I m going to let my ignorance and limited knowledge hang-out . I once compared 1. a PFM Shay (25T Benson, I believe) with 2 wheel pick-up on each rail
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                        Hi All:

                        I'm going to let my ignorance and limited knowledge "hang-out".

                        I once compared
                        1. a PFM Shay (25T Benson, I believe) with 2 wheel pick-up on each rail
                        2. a PSC Shay (20T, generic) with 4 wheel pick-up on each side.

                        The PFM ran smoother and quieter, but it stalled all the time, presumably
                        due to having only two pick-ups. Now if you clean your wheels and your
                        track a lot, this may be less of a problem--but...

                        I bought the PSC. The PSC runs fairly well, but it lists toward the
                        heavier, boiler side. I think it's because the model gears don't offset
                        the weight of the boiler like on the prototype. In any event, it must
                        spark a lot on the light side, because I build up carbon deposits fairly
                        rapidly on the wheels on that side. Thus, the running quality quickly
                        declines with use following cleaning. I have found that it runs better
                        when I place a chunk of brass on the gear side to try to balance the
                        weight. Interestingly, something similar had to be done with one of the
                        WSLCo Shays for a short period of time. (Don't remember which one off the
                        top of my head--#8 maybe?).

                        My conclusion from this limited experience is--steer clear of Shays with
                        only 2 wheel pick-up--unless you plan on adding whippers, which would solve
                        the problem. And steer clear of light-weight Shays in general.

                        Caveats: This is a limited data set. I could probably do some fiddling and
                        get my PSC Shay to run a bit better--although it does fairly well with that
                        hunk of brass on its gear-side.

                        My recommendation would be to try to get a heavier Shay with 8 wheel
                        pick-up. Unfortunately, I have no specific recommendations, since I have
                        no experience with them.

                        As I mentioned earlier--the new PSC WSLCo Heislers are remarkable runners
                        (but not cheap!).

                        For what it's worth,
                        Ed
                      • mrbnf@raiden.lightspeed.net
                        Boone, Did you mean to say a NWSL regear kit for the Benson Shay? You wrote WSL regear set for the Benson Shay. Could be the valcanic ash in the air. Big Al
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                          Boone,

                          Did you mean to say a NWSL regear kit for the Benson Shay? You wrote WSL
                          regear set for the Benson Shay. Could be the valcanic ash in the air.

                          Big Al from Cal

                          Boone Morrison wrote:

                          > From: boone@... (Boone Morrison)
                          >
                          > >From: RoundBell@...
                          > >
                          > >In a message dated 7/26/99 11:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
                          > >stutz@... writes:
                          > >
                          > ><< So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. >>
                          > >PFM built very fine HOn3 shays with the names; Herrington, Benson,Cowichan
                          > >and Mich-Cal #2 (oversize)etc. They are very dependable runners although
                          > >should have all wheel pickup added. Loco Doc
                          > >
                          >
                          > I have the Benson and would suggest that the WSL re-gear setup is an
                          > essential element as well. As delivered the Benson is very fast,
                          > particularly in comparison to my three newer PSC 2-cyl Shays. With the
                          > suggested added electrical pickups and the re-gear kit this becomes a
                          > beautiful runner.
                          > As delivered the detailing is great and you can add all sorts of
                          > "personality" with little effort. It is a beautiful engine.
                          >
                          > Aloha, Boone
                          >
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                        • Boone Morrison
                          ... Yes,yes...sure did mean NWSL....thanks... Aloha, Boone
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                            >From: mrbnf@...
                            >
                            >Boone,
                            >
                            >Did you mean to say a NWSL regear kit for the Benson Shay? You wrote WSL
                            >regear set for the Benson Shay. Could be the valcanic ash in the air.
                            >
                            >Big Al from Cal

                            Yes,yes...sure did mean NWSL....thanks...

                            Aloha, Boone
                          • Boone Morrison
                            ... My own thoughts on this: 1. I have both of those engines on line at present. Actually, I have three of the small, 2-cyl PSC units (two 20 ton and one 22
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                              >From: Edward Loechler <loechler@...>
                              >
                              >I once compared
                              >1. a PFM Shay (25T Benson, I believe) with 2 wheel pick-up on each rail
                              >2. a PSC Shay (20T, generic) with 4 wheel pick-up on each side.
                              >
                              >The PFM ran smoother and quieter, but it stalled all the time, presumably
                              >due to having only two pick-ups. (snip)

                              >I bought the PSC. The PSC runs fairly well, but it lists toward the
                              >heavier, boiler side. I think it's because the model gears don't offset
                              >the weight of the boiler like on the prototype. In any event, it must
                              >spark a lot on the light side, because I build up carbon deposits fairly
                              >rapidly on the wheels on that side. Thus, the running quality quickly
                              >declines with use following cleaning. I have found that it runs better
                              >when I place a chunk of brass on the gear side to try to balance the
                              >weight.

                              My own thoughts on this:

                              1. I have both of those engines on line at present. Actually, I have three
                              of the small, 2-cyl PSC units (two 20 ton and one 22 ton) and have to say
                              that, for an engine that small, they run beautifully with one caveat. You
                              do need to add weight, both for pickup and pulling power. I have not noted
                              any "listing" to the side of these, nor the oxidation more on one side than
                              the other of the wheels...and they have run a lot!

                              2. The Benson, 3 cyl, 25 ton machine is really a beautiful model, but
                              pre-dates contemporary motors and geartrain designs. I used the NWSL
                              re-gear set and a can motor, added a LOT of weight and the result is a real
                              "crawler" that is my "heavy haul" Shay for sure! She runs like a watch, is
                              a bit noisy (lots of gears...but so is a real Shay), but certainly is as
                              good a geared engine in HOn3 as I have ever seen.

                              3. Years ago (1959 I believe) I bought a very early HOn3 PFM Shay, the
                              large 3-cyl machine that is really a broadgauge engine, and a big one at
                              that. It had an open frame motor and a large brass flywheel. Now, that
                              engine ran beautifully and the only reason I gave it up was that it was
                              really too large for my operations...thus it became a trade for the smaller
                              Benson.

                              In general we have to accept that HOn3 engines of this size, whatever wheel
                              arrangment they may have, are going to need as much weight as we can cram
                              in, the best motor/gear train combo we can find, and clean, well laid
                              track!

                              You know, I think that sometimes jerky operation may be due to poor
                              vertical alignment of trackwork, causing the contact to break for an
                              instant because the drivers have lifted off briefly. Even with sprung
                              drivers, our models are so inherantly light that they can't accomodate much
                              vertical mis-alignment.

                              Best way to check that is to lay some rail directly (no ties) on a piece of
                              very flat pine board and see how she runs there...it will tell you a lot.
                              If she runs perfectly there, then you better look at your track.

                              Given the above, I have been told by several experienced O scale modelers
                              that my engines run as well as theirs....smooth, reliable and with enough
                              pulling power to equal their prototypes.

                              Can't ask for more than that.

                              Aloha, Boone
                            • John Stutz
                              ... I agree that PFM imported some very good looking and fine running Shays. I don t think any of them were HO scale. My United B-3 of mid 60 s production
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                                > From: RoundBell@...
                                >
                                > In a message dated 7/26/99 11:54:35 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                > stutz@... writes:
                                >
                                > << So far as I am aware, only WestSide Models produced HOn3 Shays. >>
                                > PFM built very fine HOn3 shays with the names; Herrington, Benson,Cowichan
                                > and Mich-Cal #2 (oversize)etc. They are very dependable runners although
                                > should have all wheel pickup added. Loco Doc

                                I agree that PFM imported some very good looking and fine running Shays. I
                                don't think any of them were HO scale. My United "B-3" of mid 60's production
                                looks like any number of northwestern 70-3's. But when compaired against
                                original Car Builder's Dictionary drawings, republished in TrainShed's Geared
                                issue, it is a much clooser match to the 100-3! That 50% increase in apparant
                                prototype weight is just what you get from an OO scale model, where the 14%
                                increase in model length gives a 49% increase in model volume. And the
                                classic justification for modeling in OO scale was that it gives about twice
                                the interior volume of an HO scale model, once a very important consideration
                                for small boilered prototypes, such as most geared engines. So I conclude
                                that PFM's Shays are OO scale models.

                                They are still very good engines. And as long as they are the only Shays
                                operating, no one will notice the over size. But when run alongside HO scale
                                Shays, you get the feeling that something is not quite right.

                                John Stutz
                              • boone@xxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
                                ... That is just what I meant about needing to trade off that B-2 Shay when it began running along side my tiny PFM two-truckers. They are accurately scaled
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                                  >From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                                  >I agree that PFM imported some very good looking and fine running Shays. I
                                  >don't think any of them were HO scale. (snip) So I conclude
                                  >that PFM's Shays are OO scale models.
                                  >
                                  >They are still very good engines. And as long as they are the only Shays
                                  >operating, no one will notice the over size. But when run alongside HO scale
                                  >Shays, you get the feeling that something is not quite right.
                                  >
                                  >John Stutz


                                  That is just what I meant about needing to trade off that B-2 Shay when it
                                  began running along side my tiny PFM two-truckers. They are accurately
                                  scaled (from the Armitage drawings) and next to the PFM it made that engine
                                  look like it was nearly S scale!!

                                  She was a good runner though, especially considering the motors they had to
                                  work with.

                                  Aloha, Boone
                                • larry smith
                                  Boone Wasn t the B-2 a 90-ton shay? If it was then that explains the size difference. Larry Smith, MMR
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 27, 1999
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                                    Boone

                                    Wasn't the B-2 a 90-ton shay? If it was then that explains the size difference.

                                    Larry Smith, MMR

                                    Boone Morrison wrote:

                                    > From: boone@... (Boone Morrison)
                                    >
                                    > >From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                                    > >I agree that PFM imported some very good looking and fine running Shays. I
                                    > >don't think any of them were HO scale. (snip) So I conclude
                                    > >that PFM's Shays are OO scale models.
                                    > >
                                    > >They are still very good engines. And as long as they are the only Shays
                                    > >operating, no one will notice the over size. But when run alongside HO scale
                                    > >Shays, you get the feeling that something is not quite right.
                                    > >
                                    > >John Stutz
                                    >
                                    > That is just what I meant about needing to trade off that B-2 Shay when it
                                    > began running along side my tiny PFM two-truckers. They are accurately
                                    > scaled (from the Armitage drawings) and next to the PFM it made that engine
                                    > look like it was nearly S scale!!
                                    >
                                    > She was a good runner though, especially considering the motors they had to
                                    > work with.
                                    >
                                    > Aloha, Boone
                                    >
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                                  • darney@xxx.xxx
                                    Both the PFM B-2 and the MDC shays are accurately scaled for HO. The B-2 is a 90 ton shay and is perhaps too large for narrow gauge, as I don t know of
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 28, 1999
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                                      Both the PFM B-2 and the MDC shays are accurately scaled for HO. The B-2 is a
                                      90 ton shay and is perhaps too large for narrow gauge, as I don't know of any 90
                                      ton two truck shays. but then never say never-- The MDC shay represents a 100
                                      --110 ton machine. I believe West Side # 10 at 80 tons was the heaviest narrow
                                      gauge Shay built. This doesn't mean that it was the heaviest narrow gauge ever
                                      used as it was common practice to change gauge as needed and a heavier standard
                                      gauge shay could have been converted, who knows! just never say never!
                                      (the West Side two truck No's 5 & 6 were 55 ton Shays)
                                      Dale Darney
                                      *************

                                      Boone Morrison wrote:

                                      > From: boone@... (Boone Morrison)
                                      >
                                      > >From: John Stutz <stutz@...>
                                      > >I agree that PFM imported some very good looking and fine running Shays. I
                                      > >don't think any of them were HO scale. (snip) So I conclude
                                      > >that PFM's Shays are OO scale models.
                                      > >
                                      > >They are still very good engines. And as long as they are the only Shays
                                      > >operating, no one will notice the over size. But when run alongside HO scale
                                      > >Shays, you get the feeling that something is not quite right.
                                      > >
                                      > >John Stutz
                                      >
                                      > That is just what I meant about needing to trade off that B-2 Shay when it
                                      > began running along side my tiny PFM two-truckers. They are accurately
                                      > scaled (from the Armitage drawings) and next to the PFM it made that engine
                                      > look like it was nearly S scale!!
                                      >
                                      > She was a good runner though, especially considering the motors they had to
                                      > work with.
                                      >
                                      > Aloha, Boone
                                      >
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                                    • Boone Morrison
                                      ... Seems it was. Since it is gone I can t check it out to see about dimensions, but the key matter was that it clearly was too much engine for the whole
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 28, 1999
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                                        >From: larry smith <wooddale@...>
                                        >
                                        >Boone
                                        >
                                        >Wasn't the B-2 a 90-ton shay? If it was then that explains the size
                                        >difference.
                                        >
                                        >Larry Smith, MMR

                                        Seems it was. Since it is gone I can't check it out to see about
                                        dimensions, but the key matter was that it clearly was "too much engine"
                                        for the whole "look" of my operation. With the largest loco on the line
                                        being the #3 Heisler from WSLCo.(I believe that is a 37 ton machine) and
                                        the Shays at 20, 22 and 25 tons, she was just too big!!!

                                        Aloha, Boone
                                      • REckerfiel@aol.com
                                        PFM made what they called the 90 Ton Shay in the early sixties; it was a two truck, but not the same as the later B-2. At about the same time as the 90-T, PFM
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 28, 1999
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                                          PFM made what they called the 90 Ton Shay in the early sixties; it was a two
                                          truck, but not the same as the later B-2. At about the same time as the
                                          90-T, PFM made a three truck Shay similar in appearance to the 90-T.
                                          Bob E.
                                        • John Stutz
                                          ... From where I sit, and comparing against photographs, the PFM B-2 and B-3, and MDC s copies, *look* like models of Lima classes 60-2 and 70-3. The MDC s
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jul 28, 1999
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                                            > From: darney@...

                                            > Both the PFM B-2 and the MDC shays are accurately scaled for HO. The B-2 is
                                            > a 90 ton shay and is perhaps too large for narrow gauge, as I don't know of
                                            > any 90 ton two truck shays. but then never say never-- The MDC shay
                                            > represents a 100 --110 ton machine. I believe West Side # 10 at 80 tons was
                                            > the heaviest narrow gauge Shay built. This doesn't mean that it was the
                                            > heaviest narrow gauge ever used as it was common practice to change gauge as
                                            > needed and a heavier standard gauge shay could have been converted, who
                                            > knows! just never say never! (the West Side two truck No's 5 & 6 were 55
                                            > ton Shays)

                                            From where I sit, and comparing against photographs, the PFM B-2 and B-3, and
                                            MDC's copies, *look* like models of Lima classes 60-2 and 70-3. The MDC's
                                            have often been describe as such, in recent publications. But they scale out
                                            somewhere around classes 90-2 and 100-3. And they don't look much like 90-2
                                            or 100-3 Shays. This has long been a puzzle, and I've given my explanation -
                                            that they are OO scale models.

                                            Keep in mind when discussing Shays, that the class numbers are keyed to
                                            cylinder size, and only represent nominal weights of the lightest version of
                                            engines with the given cylinder size. Thus 70-3's, like West Side 8, 9 and 10,
                                            all have 12.5x15 cylinders, but they weigh any where between 70 and 85 tons.
                                            The differences were a matter of the frame type, truck type, bunker
                                            capacities, cab, brake system and other accessories. There is not much
                                            difference in the overall size of Shays in the same class, despite the
                                            difference in weights.

                                            My best take on large narrow gauge Shays, without checking references: The
                                            western logging lines mostly topped out around 42-2's and 60-3's. West Side
                                            had two ~50-2's, several 60-3's, and the three 70-3's copied from the Oahu
                                            pair. Uintah used 50-2's and 60-2's, some second hand from the Greys Peak
                                            line. There was a very obscure line built by Jessie Knight into Utah's Tintic
                                            district, SE of Eureka, which had three early 70-3's, with separate crank
                                            shaft brackets. These were standard gauged when the line was abandoned. One
                                            of the mining lines in Idaho's Wallace district may have had a 50-2. I'm not
                                            up on the Eastern NG mining and logging lines, but I don't think they exceeded
                                            these ranges.

                                            On the export side, United Fruit sent a pair of early 70-3's to Guatemala.
                                            Three modern 70-3's went to the Leopoldina's meter gauge (39.4") in Brazil,
                                            and one of the earlier ones to the Transandian in Chile. Braden Copper had a
                                            bunch of 30" gauge 40-2's and 60-3's in Chile. One early 85-3 was built, but
                                            not shipped, for the 42" Guayaquil & Quito in Ecuador. There may have been
                                            others, but this is the result of a very close scan through Koch about 15
                                            years ago.

                                            I don't think anyone ever ran a 90-2 or 100-3 on the 3' gauge. Narrowing a
                                            big Shay is a lot trickier that widening a small to medium on. Though I would
                                            be very pleased to learn otherwise. I still have that B-3, and a set of
                                            narrow gauge trucks, sitting on the shelf.

                                            John Stutz
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