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D&RGW C-21

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  • Jason Stephens
    Group, I am rebuilding a C-21 done by Custom Brass as D&RGW #360. I have rebuilt the tender, (raised airtanks, made new coal bunker out of strip brass, made a
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 30 8:42 PM
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      Group,

      I am rebuilding a C-21 done by Custom Brass as D&RGW #360. I have
      rebuilt the tender, (raised airtanks, made new coal bunker out of strip
      brass, made a new ladder, etc.) and am almost done with it. I have
      stripped the super structure down to nothing but the boiler, cab, and
      running boards. I would like to know if any of you happen to know the
      pipe sizes from the injectors to the check valves, the air lines from
      the cab to the twin air pumps, and the size of the sand lines. These
      are the ones I need the most. Are any of these lines the lagged pipes?
      I would also like to know what the thing is that sticks out of the
      smokebox on the firemans side of #360 in the Grandt Pictorials. It
      looks like some kind of valve or something.

      Thanks,
      Jason
    • Dale Buxton
      Jason, All the pipe sizes you ask about are very much standardized pipe diameters for the jobs suggested. The pipe diameters were arrived at by the various
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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        Jason,

        All the pipe sizes you ask about are very much
        standardized pipe diameters for the jobs suggested.
        The pipe diameters were arrived at by the various
        appliance manufacturers, to contend with and maximize
        the fluid dynamics of various pressurized substances
        (i.e. air, gas and liquids) while being transported in
        a pipe.
        This is what we know as the Laminar Flow Effect. It
        seems molecules of the product in transport tend to
        drag along the inside surface, while the molecules
        closer to the center of the pipe move more freely. In
        some cases higher pressures cause higher rates of
        drag. There were tables in both the Westinghouse and
        New York Brake manuals that laid this all out
        mathematically.

        For our modeling purposes, way back in the 70’s the
        Gazette printed a series of articles called “Straight
        Talk about Bent Pipe”. I will try to dig the pertinent
        issues out and get the exact pipe diameters for you
        tomorrow.

        As for lagged pipe. The delivery pipes from the
        Fountain Steam Turret in the cab to the air pumps and
        the injectors are generally the only lagged pipes on
        D&RGW narrow gauge steam. On a C-21, the air pump
        pipe, tee’s off to go to both air pumps right behind
        and between them. There was a pair of stem valves
        after the tee to selectively turn of either air pump.

        One of the C-21’s briefly had one 11” and one 8½” pump
        at the same time.

        As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don’t have the
        pictorial in front of me right now. Are you referring
        to the box that was found there? I have heard two
        stories for that item. One is that it was a storage
        box for signal flags. The other that it was protection
        for what ever was under it!

        Bob Richardson in the real authority on the ex Crystal
        River engines though.

        Dale Buxton


        --- Jason Stephens <drgwnut@...> wrote:

        > Group,
        >
        > I am rebuilding a C-21 done by Custom Brass as D&RGW
        > #360. I have
        > rebuilt the tender, (raised airtanks, made new coal
        > bunker out of strip
        > brass, made a new ladder, etc.) and am almost done
        > with it. I have
        > stripped the super structure down to nothing but the
        > boiler, cab, and
        > running boards. I would like to know if any of you
        > happen to know the
        > pipe sizes from the injectors to the check valves,
        > the air lines from
        > the cab to the twin air pumps, and the size of the
        > sand lines. These
        > are the ones I need the most. Are any of these lines
        > the lagged pipes?
        > I would also like to know what the thing is that
        > sticks out of the
        > smokebox on the firemans side of #360 in the Grandt
        > Pictorials. It
        > looks like some kind of valve or something.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Jason
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
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      • Rick Blanchard
        See my data page for the outside diameters of standard steel pipes and the scale equivalents, and some of the piping sizes. Rick Railroad Data Page:
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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          See my data page for the outside diameters of
          standard steel pipes and the scale equivalents, and some of the piping sizes.

          Rick

          Railroad Data Page: http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/index.html




          At 02:17 AM, 10/1/2006, you wrote:
          >Jason,
          >
          >All the pipe sizes you ask about are very much
          >standardized pipe diameters for the jobs suggested.
          >The pipe diameters were arrived at by the various
          >appliance manufacturers, to contend with and maximize
          >the fluid dynamics of various pressurized substances
          >(i.e. air, gas and liquids) while being transported in
          >a pipe.
          >This is what we know as the Laminar Flow Effect. It
          >seems molecules of the product in transport tend to
          >drag along the inside surface, while the molecules
          >closer to the center of the pipe move more freely. In
          >some cases higher pressures cause higher rates of
          >drag. There were tables in both the Westinghouse and
          >New York Brake manuals that laid this all out
          >mathematically.
          >
          >For our modeling purposes, way back in the 70’s the
          >Gazette printed a series of articles called “Straight
          >Talk about Bent Pipe”. I will try to dig the pertinent
          >issues out and get the exact pipe diameters for you
          >tomorrow.
          >
          >As for lagged pipe. The delivery pipes from the
          >Fountain Steam Turret in the cab to the air pumps and
          >the injectors are generally the only lagged pipes on
          >D&RGW narrow gauge steam. On a C-21, the air pump
          >pipe, tee’s off to go to both air pumps right behind
          >and between them. There was a pair of stem valves
          >after the tee to selectively turn of either air pump.
          >
          >One of the C-21’s briefly had one 11” and one 8½” pump
          >at the same time.
          >
          >As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don’t have the
          >pictorial in front of me right now. Are you referring
          >to the box that was found there? I have heard two
          >stories for that item. One is that it was a storage
          >box for signal flags. The other that it was protection
          >for what ever was under it!
          >
          >Bob Richardson in the real authority on the ex Crystal
          >River engines though.
          >
          >Dale Buxton
          >
          >
          >--- Jason Stephens <drgwnut@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Group,
          > >
          > > I am rebuilding a C-21 done by Custom Brass as D&RGW
          > > #360. I have
          > > rebuilt the tender, (raised airtanks, made new coal
          > > bunker out of strip
          > > brass, made a new ladder, etc.) and am almost done
          > > with it. I have
          > > stripped the super structure down to nothing but the
          > > boiler, cab, and
          > > running boards. I would like to know if any of you
          > > happen to know the
          > > pipe sizes from the injectors to the check valves,
          > > the air lines from
          > > the cab to the twin air pumps, and the size of the
          > > sand lines. These
          > > are the ones I need the most. Are any of these lines
          > > the lagged pipes?
          > > I would also like to know what the thing is that
          > > sticks out of the
          > > smokebox on the firemans side of #360 in the Grandt
          > > Pictorials. It
          > > looks like some kind of valve or something.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Jason
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >__________________________________________________
          >Do You Yahoo!?
          >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          >http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >HOn3 list web pages are:
          >http://www.railwayeng.com/hon3/
          >http://groups.yahoo.com/archive/Hon3/
          >http://groups.yahoo.com/files/HOn3/
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Rick Blanchard
          rick@...
          Youngsville, New Mexico
        • Jason Stephens
          ... Thanks for the info. ... Volume 1, page 93, shows this to be #361 with the 2 sizes of air pumps. As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don t have the ...
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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            > Dale,

            Thanks for the info.

            > One of the C-21's briefly had one 11" and one 8½" pump
            > at the same time.
            >
            Volume 1, page 93, shows this to be #361 with the 2 sizes of air
            pumps.

            As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don't have the
            > pictorial in front of me right now. Are you referring
            > to the box that was found there? I have heard two
            > stories for that item. One is that it was a storage
            > box for signal flags. The other that it was protection
            > for what ever was under it!
            >
            D&RGW #361 was the only C-21 with this box that I can tell after
            looking at several photos. The same photo I mentioned above shows the
            box with what looks like flag handles sticking out of it. If you look
            on page 90 in Volume 1 you will see what looks like a valve of some
            kind with a pipe that runs out of the rear of it and turns down in
            front of the running board. There is a better photo of it in Richard
            Dorman's book "Gunnison" on page 127.

            I would also like to know what size pipe was used on the tender. This
            ran from the airtanks down the side twards the front. I am guesing it
            was 1 1/4"?

            Thanks,
            Jason
          • Jason Stephens
            Rick, Thanks for the site. I have it saved in my favorites. My question to you is this. You mention in all of the dimentions a steam pipe . What are you
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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              Rick,

              Thanks for the site. I have it saved in my favorites. My question to
              you is this. You mention in all of the dimentions a "steam pipe". What
              are you refering too? It was late last night and real early this
              morning when I looked and my little brain was tired!

              Thanks,
              Jason
            • Rick Blanchard
              Jason, Take another look. The figures are for standard STEEL pipes. :o} Rick ... -- Rick Blanchard rick@urbaneagle.com Youngsville, New Mexico
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 1, 2006
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                Jason,

                Take another look. The figures are for standard STEEL pipes. :o}

                Rick

                >Thanks for the site. I have it saved in my favorites. My question to
                >you is this. You mention in all of the dimentions a "steam pipe". What
                >are you refering too? It was late last night and real early this
                >morning when I looked and my little brain was tired!

                --
                Rick Blanchard
                rick@...
                Youngsville, New Mexico
              • Dale Buxton
                Jason, Sorry this took so long. All the Gazette articles in the “Straight Talk about Bent Pipe” series run from 1975 to ‘77. I had my copies scattered
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  Jason,

                  Sorry this took so long. All the Gazette articles in
                  the “Straight Talk about Bent Pipe” series run from
                  1975 to ‘77. I had my copies scattered with various
                  projects I have working. The Gazette was a much better
                  research source back then. Anyway…

                  Delivery lines from the injectors to the check valves
                  can be 1½” to 1¾” diameter. The boiler check on this
                  era of No.360 is a vertical type with a stem valve at
                  the top. The valve handle is missing in the photo. The
                  lines into D&RG smoke boxes are usually steam
                  appliance exhaust lines and lubricator lines. These
                  sometimes have globe valves on them.

                  Most of the main air pipe and train line air pipe is
                  1¼” by manufacturer recommended practice. This would
                  include the lines going to the tender air reservoirs.
                  The lines that tee off of the train line to brake
                  cylinders can be ¾” or ½”.

                  The control lines involving the E, H, or EH-6 brake
                  control seems to be mostly 3/8” to the compressor
                  governor. There is ½” and ¾” pipe in and around the
                  brake stand and various associated appliances.

                  Most lubricator lines are 3/8" with some 1/2".

                  Hope all this helps.

                  Dale Buxton


                  --- Jason Stephens <drgwnut@...> wrote:

                  > > Dale,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the info.
                  >
                  > > One of the C-21's briefly had one 11" and one 8½"
                  > pump
                  > > at the same time.
                  > >
                  > Volume 1, page 93, shows this to be #361 with the 2
                  > sizes of air
                  > pumps.
                  >
                  > As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don't have
                  > the
                  > > pictorial in front of me right now. Are you
                  > referring
                  > > to the box that was found there? I have heard two
                  > > stories for that item. One is that it was a
                  > storage
                  > > box for signal flags. The other that it was
                  > protection
                  > > for what ever was under it!
                  > >
                  > D&RGW #361 was the only C-21 with this box that I
                  > can tell after
                  > looking at several photos. The same photo I
                  > mentioned above shows the
                  > box with what looks like flag handles sticking out
                  > of it. If you look
                  > on page 90 in Volume 1 you will see what looks like
                  > a valve of some
                  > kind with a pipe that runs out of the rear of it and
                  > turns down in
                  > front of the running board. There is a better photo
                  > of it in Richard
                  > Dorman's book "Gunnison" on page 127.
                  >
                  > I would also like to know what size pipe was used on
                  > the tender. This
                  > ran from the airtanks down the side twards the
                  > front. I am guesing it
                  > was 1 1/4"?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Jason
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                • Mike Conder
                  Remember, all those pipe sizes are STANDARD, nominal sizes, and their outside diameters rarely match the nominal diameters. Use Rck B s web site to get the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 3, 2006
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                    Remember, all those pipe sizes are STANDARD, nominal sizes, and their outside diameters rarely match the nominal diameters. Use Rck B's web site to get the correct outside diameter.

                    Mike Conder


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Dale Buxton <the_one_tuatha_ddana@...>
                    To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 11:56:02 AM
                    Subject: Re: [HOn3] Re: D&RGW C-21

                    Jason,

                    Sorry this took so long. All the Gazette articles in
                    the �Straight Talk about Bent Pipe� series run from
                    1975 to �77. I had my copies scattered with various
                    projects I have working. The Gazette was a much better
                    research source back then. Anyway�

                    Delivery lines from the injectors to the check valves
                    can be 1�� to 1�� diameter. The boiler check on this
                    era of No.360 is a vertical type with a stem valve at
                    the top. The valve handle is missing in the photo. The
                    lines into D&RG smoke boxes are usually steam
                    appliance exhaust lines and lubricator lines. These
                    sometimes have globe valves on them.

                    Most of the main air pipe and train line air pipe is
                    1�� by manufacturer recommended practice. This would
                    include the lines going to the tender air reservoirs.
                    The lines that tee off of the train line to brake
                    cylinders can be �� or ��.

                    The control lines involving the E, H, or EH-6 brake
                    control seems to be mostly 3/8� to the compressor
                    governor. There is �� and �� pipe in and around the
                    brake stand and various associated appliances.

                    Most lubricator lines are 3/8" with some 1/2".

                    Hope all this helps.

                    Dale Buxton

                    --- Jason Stephens <drgwnut@aol. com> wrote:

                    > > Dale,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the info.
                    >
                    > > One of the C-21's briefly had one 11" and one 8�"
                    > pump
                    > > at the same time.
                    > >
                    > Volume 1, page 93, shows this to be #361 with the 2
                    > sizes of air
                    > pumps.
                    >
                    > As to the item on the smoke-box side; I don't have
                    > the
                    > > pictorial in front of me right now. Are you
                    > referring
                    > > to the box that was found there? I have heard two
                    > > stories for that item. One is that it was a
                    > storage
                    > > box for signal flags. The other that it was
                    > protection
                    > > for what ever was under it!
                    > >
                    > D&RGW #361 was the only C-21 with this box that I
                    > can tell after
                    > looking at several photos. The same photo I
                    > mentioned above shows the
                    > box with what looks like flag handles sticking out
                    > of it. If you look
                    > on page 90 in Volume 1 you will see what looks like
                    > a valve of some
                    > kind with a pipe that runs out of the rear of it and
                    > turns down in
                    > front of the running board. There is a better photo
                    > of it in Richard
                    > Dorman's book "Gunnison" on page 127.
                    >
                    > I would also like to know what size pipe was used on
                    > the tender. This
                    > ran from the airtanks down the side twards the
                    > front. I am guesing it
                    > was 1 1/4"?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Jason
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

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