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Re: [HOn3] Re: PSC C-21 /Geeese/ L 105 and other PSC scrap

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  • Fred Voelcker
    Sounds to me like someone ought to blow the whistle to the Better Business Bureau or other similar organization, and force them to make good on shoddy
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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      Sounds to me like someone ought to blow the whistle to the Better
      Business Bureau or other similar organization, and force them to
      make good on shoddy merchandise?

      Phread
    • eabracher@aol.com
      I just got one of their 24 WSLC flats. It is so heavy it would take a double header to run it down hill. It does have link & pin couplers. Also a nice wood
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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        I just got one of their 24' WSLC flats. It is so heavy it would take a
        double header to run it down hill.

        It does have link & pin couplers.

        Also a nice wood deck.

        eric
      • Jim Vail
        ... We (HOn3 modelers as a whole) have been asking for new C-21 s for many years. The old Balboa engines (I had 2) were great in their day but they had parts
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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          > Wow! Thanks for the tip! I was considering selling my old Balboa and NJCB
          > C-21's - think I'll keep them now - they might not have all the intense
          > details, but THEY RUN!
          > And, thry didn't cost me $800 for all three!

          We (HOn3 modelers as a whole) have been asking for new C-21's for many
          years. The old Balboa engines (I had 2) were great in their day but they had
          parts falling off them and other new engine problems, too - and they had open
          frame motors that stuck back in the cabs and required a high starting
          voltage. (And they didn't RUN or PULL all that well either.) So they
          required a lot of set-up work when new.

          So now PSC has brought us what we asked for - a very limited interest loco -
          and we're complaning? I have a 360 and a 361, and I had to spend a couple
          hours on each of them to get them running on my layout. And I will have to
          spend a few more hours to get front couplers on them and get them weathered
          the way I want them. But I'm darned glad to see these new engines. They
          pull well and run quietly, and look good on my layout.

          We all have seen the great looking diesels - and now standard gauge steam
          engines - from Kato, Life Like, Bachman, etc. They run supperbly right out
          of the box, and you don't have fiddle with them. If thats what you want, buy
          them. If you like the low detail, poor running engines of the past, buy
          them. I happen to like unique, highly detailed, narrow gauge steam, that's
          what I want on my railroad, and I don't mind working on the models to get
          what I want.

          I think modeling, building, tinkering is much more fun than buying for most
          of us. Personally I don't like "bad-mouthing" any manufacturer's new
          product.

          Jim Vail
        • Nathaniel Cox
          Jim, Just a quick comment on this and no offense is intended: All of those nice standard gauge products you mentioned don t cost anywhere near the neighborhood
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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            Jim,
            Just a quick comment on this and no offense is intended: All of those nice
            standard gauge products you mentioned don't cost anywhere near the
            neighborhood of a PSC product so the comparison doesn't really work,
            regardless of whether they are plastic or not. That said, however, I do
            agree that modeling, building and tinkering are what make the hobby fun. I
            have no personal experience with PSC yet. My C-19 is coming soon, I hope, so
            we'll just have to wait and see. With the high price tag my expectations are
            pretty high, for detail and performance, and I hope I'm not let down by PSC.

            As for bad mouthing a manufacturer, I also agree, to a certain extent. I've
            been an N&W fan for a long time and I'm on the N&W HS modeling list. It
            always erks me a bit when I see a Spectrum or P2K come out with something
            great like the new J or the Y-3 and the web list folks rip the manufacturer
            for getting a small thing like an eccentric rod wrong, or whatever. Never
            mind that the product wasn't available at all before and that it's of a
            quality that hasn't been seen before.

            If, however, these PSC C-21's are as troubled as some folks have said then
            that is something I'd want to know and I'd have no problem, at the given
            price point, complaining to PSC about it. Also, I would expect for these
            problems to be made known in a certain review that appeared in the Gazette.
            If a product has problems consumers have a right to know about them. Now the
            model you reviewed probably didn't have the same problems that are being
            encountered at Caboose Hobbies, but I would hope that you would have no
            problem writing about them if it did. Even if it means saying something
            negative about a manufacturer.
            Best,
            Nathaniel Cox


            >From: Jim Vail <akacoot@...>
            >Reply-To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
            >To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [HOn3] PSC C-21
            >Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:25:08 -0600
            >
            > > Wow! Thanks for the tip! I was considering selling my old Balboa and
            >NJCB
            > > C-21's - think I'll keep them now - they might not have all the intense
            > > details, but THEY RUN!
            > > And, thry didn't cost me $800 for all three!
            >
            >We (HOn3 modelers as a whole) have been asking for new C-21's for many
            >years. The old Balboa engines (I had 2) were great in their day but they
            >had
            >parts falling off them and other new engine problems, too - and they had
            >open
            >frame motors that stuck back in the cabs and required a high starting
            >voltage. (And they didn't RUN or PULL all that well either.) So they
            >required a lot of set-up work when new.
            >
            >So now PSC has brought us what we asked for - a very limited interest loco
            >-
            >and we're complaning? I have a 360 and a 361, and I had to spend a couple
            >hours on each of them to get them running on my layout. And I will have to
            >spend a few more hours to get front couplers on them and get them weathered
            >the way I want them. But I'm darned glad to see these new engines. They
            >pull well and run quietly, and look good on my layout.
            >
            >We all have seen the great looking diesels - and now standard gauge steam
            >engines - from Kato, Life Like, Bachman, etc. They run supperbly right out
            >of the box, and you don't have fiddle with them. If thats what you want,
            >buy
            >them. If you like the low detail, poor running engines of the past, buy
            >them. I happen to like unique, highly detailed, narrow gauge steam,
            >that's
            >what I want on my railroad, and I don't mind working on the models to get
            >what I want.
            >
            >I think modeling, building, tinkering is much more fun than buying for most
            >of us. Personally I don't like "bad-mouthing" any manufacturer's new
            >product.
            >
            >Jim Vail
            >


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          • afaprinz@t-online.de
            Hello, I prefer the H0n3 PSCs of the last decade over every other manufacturers models. They are the most accurate models available ... their K-37 even is the
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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              Hello,

              I prefer the H0n3 PSCs of the last decade over every other manufacturers models.
              They are the most accurate models available ... their K-37 even is the ONLY
              correct reproduction of this prototype and not just "look-a-like" ...

              And it´s easy to "get them running" without having to deal with wrong
              proportions in the first place.

              And their price is peanuts in comparison with the $$$´s you have to pay for the
              "good old" Nakamuras, Fujis and Uniteds.

              Andreas Prinz
            • Mike Conder
              ... Jim, Have you had any of the problems mentioned in the earlier post? If so, how did you fix them? And any tricks on how to get them on the track easily?
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 8, 2002
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                Jim Vail wrote:

                > ... I have a 360 and a 361, and I had to spend a couple
                > hours on each of them to get them running on my layout. And I will
                > have to spend a few more hours to get front couplers on them and get them
                > weathered the way I want them. But I'm darned glad to see these new engines.

                Jim,

                Have you had any of the problems mentioned in the earlier post? If so,
                how did you fix them? And any tricks on how to get them on the track
                easily?

                They are gorgeous engines, but the criticisms are real ... I also saw
                them. Even so, I wish I had the $$$ to get one, esp. if I can get some
                tips on tuning them up.

                Mike Conder
              • szczowicz@aol.com
                I think problems like those encountered on the Psc C-21 are more off putting to some than others. Jim Vail is clearly well experienced in tinkering and tuning
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                  I think problems like those encountered on the Psc C-21 are more off putting
                  to some than others. Jim Vail is clearly well experienced in tinkering and
                  tuning and will square up to a bad runner and fix it. Equally there are other
                  far less experiencfed modellers for whom the concept of even taking the
                  boiler off a $800 model is enough to make them go weak at the knees.
                  Quality control has always been an issue with brass and while one list member
                  mentioned that PSC doesn't try them before sending them out what about the
                  manufacturer? I bought a brass SRRL 23 and had it custom painted - total cost
                  was nearly seven hundred dollars. It finally arrived I put it on the track
                  and it cooked. Examination showed that one part of the running gear was mal
                  formed and locked the mechanism up. It could never run - Never been tested by
                  the maker, the shop the painted, no one. So it was goodbye to that maker and
                  that shop (and HOn30!). These models are not cheap and they're supposidly RTR
                  costing six or more times the price of a Kato or what ever and while they may
                  look very pretty I don't think it's too much to exepct that they run well
                  too.
                  Finally i have a PSC K-27 and it runs like a dream - so it can be done.
                  Mark Kasprowicz


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • B. banta
                  As a long time custom painter I have to ask, or at least mention that more than likely the custom painter did not do his work. Any painter worth his salt will
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                    As a long time custom painter I have to ask, or at least mention that
                    more than likely the custom painter did not do his work. Any painter
                    worth his salt will completely disassemble the model prior to painting
                    and then build it back and make sure the running quality is as good as
                    or better than when it arrived in his shop. I would send the model back
                    to the painter and ask why? This person should have taken care of the
                    problem. The loco probably ran well before the painter got his mitts on
                    it.

                    bill banta.....
                  • eabracher@aol.com
                    Now if they would only do a C-25. eric
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                      Now if they would only do a C-25.

                      eric
                    • Jim Vail
                      Mike Conder wrote: Have you had any of the problems mentioned in the earlier post? If so, how did you fix them? And any tricks on how to get them on the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                        Mike Conder wrote:
                        Have you had any of the problems mentioned in the earlier post? If so, how did you
                        fix them? And any tricks on how to get them on the track-

                        I had a problem on one engine (not mentioned) of the insulated rear driver tire
                        shorting against the firebox. PSC or the builder had already ground out a
                        clearance notch, but I had problems in a few turnouts. It necessitated removing
                        the boiler shell, undoing the motor mounting screw/spring assembly, then pivoting
                        the motor up (never released it from the axle) so I could get at the firebox
                        mounting screws. Removed the firebox and ground out the notch a little farther.
                        Sounds more complicated here than it really was - spent most of the time figuring
                        it out.

                        I wore some of the striping paint off the loco while handling it, but repainted
                        that when I relettered it for my own road.

                        I think the tender wheels were undergauge (not sure now) - but the tender wheels on
                        all HOn3 brass seem to be undergauge - they must all be made by the same vender.

                        I think I had to fiddle with the pilot truck (added some weight) on both engines.

                        But I want to say again - I have had to do this on almost every brass loco I have
                        purchased - and the O scale and S scale guys all have to do the same thing - even
                        with the "hi-grade" models.

                        Incidentally, PSC does run every loco at their shop. But the can't duplicate all
                        the little track irregularities that we all have!

                        Jim Vail
                      • hobosteve
                        Hi Jim, I like high detailed steam engines too, but for $ 800 I want a perfectly buit and mechanically superb working engine with no weak soldering. I hate to
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                          Hi Jim,
                          I like high detailed steam engines too, but for $ 800 I want a
                          perfectly buit and mechanically superb working engine with no weak
                          soldering. I hate to repair a new engine exspec sandblast her and
                          solder on loose parts and than paint he again. I could use this time
                          better on working on my layout.

                          steffen
                        • hobosteve
                          Hi Andreas, your PSC#S look nice in the shelf, but wait when they are the first time on the layout with turnouts (we talked about that the last time we met).
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                            Hi Andreas,

                            your PSC#S look nice in the shelf, but wait when they are the first
                            time on the layout with turnouts (we talked about that the last time
                            we met). I rebuilt 3 WSM K 37 (494, 495, 497) to match the prototype
                            ecactly for a fraction of cost of 3 new PSC K 37 (engines had cost me
                            $ 1100 for all 3, and some $350 were spend for detailing and my
                            remotroing kits).




                            Steffen
                          • hobosteve
                            Hi Mark whan I remotor and paint an engine for an customer it will not leave my shop until it is working without trouble and so do all companies over here.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                              Hi Mark
                              whan I remotor and paint an engine for an customer it will not leave
                              my shop until it is working without trouble and so do all companies
                              over here. This is the same what I expect PSC had to do. The same
                              Korean manufaturers make brass models for German and Swiss importers.
                              You never hear complaints from customers about malfunctions, because
                              the importers have set up high quality check standards. Sometimes
                              more the 60 % of a run were send back for repair ot replacement.



                              Steffen
                              Stoner Creek Miniatures
                            • train3guy
                              Jim and everybody, I sure didn t mean to bad mouth anybody s product! To my way of thinking, and that of about a dozen other modelers I have talked to since I
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                Jim and everybody,
                                I sure didn't mean to bad mouth anybody's product! To my way of thinking, and that of about a dozen other modelers I have talked to since I posted my comments, I was not bad mouthing anything. What I was doing was telling people what I had personally seen and experienced with these models. One of the guys, at Caboose, made the comment that maybe now PSC would pay a little more attention to the products they release. I don't see how telling people about what I have dealt with can be called bad mouthing. If what I wrote was untrue, then probably it would be bad mouthing. It just seems that a model that retails for $835, or so, should not have paint problems, intermittent shorts, missing pieces, and contact problems caused by badly formed parts. I, too tinker with my locos to get them to run better. And most of that tinkering I enjoy. I think each new piece of rolling stock on any layout needs to be tuned to that layout, to some degree. I just don't think these sorts of problems fall into that category.
                                If most modelers think this sort of production quality is acceptable, then why don't we include a listing of these problems in the reviews, so everyone is aware of them and can anticipate what they will need to do to get the model to the point they want?
                                Again, sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers. I was just reporting what was honest experience, that I thought others, especially those who don't have a nearby hobby shop to go to and look at the model before purchasing it, would like to know.
                                I hope this explains my intentions and alleviates bad feelings.
                                Duncan
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jim Vail
                                To: HOn3@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 3:25 PM
                                Subject: Re: [HOn3] PSC C-21


                                > Wow! Thanks for the tip! I was considering selling my old Balboa and NJCB
                                > C-21's - think I'll keep them now - they might not have all the intense
                                > details, but THEY RUN!
                                > And, thry didn't cost me $800 for all three!

                                We (HOn3 modelers as a whole) have been asking for new C-21's for many
                                years. The old Balboa engines (I had 2) were great in their day but they had
                                parts falling off them and other new engine problems, too - and they had open
                                frame motors that stuck back in the cabs and required a high starting
                                voltage. (And they didn't RUN or PULL all that well either.) So they
                                required a lot of set-up work when new.

                                So now PSC has brought us what we asked for - a very limited interest loco -
                                and we're complaning? I have a 360 and a 361, and I had to spend a couple
                                hours on each of them to get them running on my layout. And I will have to
                                spend a few more hours to get front couplers on them and get them weathered
                                the way I want them. But I'm darned glad to see these new engines. They
                                pull well and run quietly, and look good on my layout.

                                We all have seen the great looking diesels - and now standard gauge steam
                                engines - from Kato, Life Like, Bachman, etc. They run supperbly right out
                                of the box, and you don't have fiddle with them. If thats what you want, buy
                                them. If you like the low detail, poor running engines of the past, buy
                                them. I happen to like unique, highly detailed, narrow gauge steam, that's
                                what I want on my railroad, and I don't mind working on the models to get
                                what I want.

                                I think modeling, building, tinkering is much more fun than buying for most
                                of us. Personally I don't like "bad-mouthing" any manufacturer's new
                                product.

                                Jim Vail


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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • hobosteve
                                ... Incidentally, PSC does run every loco at their shop. But the can t duplicate all the little track irregularities that we all have! Hi Jim, if PSC testrun
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                  --- In HOn3@y..., Jim Vail <akacoot@p...> wrote:
                                  Incidentally, PSC does run every loco at their shop. But the can't
                                  duplicate all the little track irregularities that we all have!

                                  Hi Jim,
                                  if PSC testrun all the engines, how could it be that on all Geese I
                                  got the drive shafts have fallen off during transport and fell off
                                  everytime I run them on the curved test track ??? Ok, the problem is
                                  solved now by installing new cardans, but they must have noticed the
                                  problem during the test.

                                  I too love tinkering and fiddeling with brass engines, but I bought a
                                  lot of engines from manufacturers like WSM,Sunset and Overland which
                                  could negotiate even my horrible bend and crooked lumber RR track
                                  (normaly operated with 4 Shays)


                                  Steffen
                                • hobosteve
                                  Hi Duncan, you are right. It helps nobody if problems were hidden exspecially not in a hobby shop like CH Inc. When I ordered models there or bougt some in
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                    Hi Duncan,
                                    you are right. It helps nobody if problems were hidden exspecially
                                    not in a hobby shop like CH Inc. When I ordered models there or
                                    bougt some in the store in person (b t w: Do you have my parking slot
                                    ready :-)) I always apprecaited the infomation about the quality and
                                    problems of the models I want to buy. When I sell models I inform the
                                    customer about every problem I have had with the engine even if it is
                                    now solved.

                                    PSC schould take more care on their releases. As I said, the same
                                    manufacturere work for European Importers too. But those importers
                                    now carefully watch and observe every step of the model buiding with
                                    own personal in Korea and they could act immediatly if something
                                    going wrong.

                                    Steffen
                                  • bsdetails@aol.com
                                    When I received my PSC #361 it had brake shoes shorting on the drivers. I unsoldered the brake rods in front, straitened them and moved everything forward a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 9, 2003
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                                      When I received my PSC #361 it had brake shoes shorting on the drivers. I
                                      unsoldered the brake rods in front, straitened them and moved everything
                                      forward a bit. It seemed to run fine on my test track. So I took it to the
                                      Slim Gauge in Pasadena to see if it would pull a brass coach and combine.
                                      Naturally I forgot to put a coupler on the tender so I still don't know about
                                      that but I found the screw that holds the lead truck on hung down to far and
                                      caught on some of the turnouts. Otherwise it seamed to run will. I fixed the
                                      screw and added a coupler and put it back in the box. I have removed the
                                      boiler to see what the drive looked like and found this very small Machima
                                      motor. I really am surprised how well it runs, but it scares me. I have a few
                                      12 x 30 Namiki motors I can remotor with if need be. Any coments on the motor?
                                      Bill Shiverdecker


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • drgw361
                                      I m interested in purchasing a PSC C-21 #361 with the Flying Rio Grande herald. If anyone on the list has one they wish to sell please contact me off list.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 3
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                                        I'm interested in purchasing a PSC C-21 #361 with the Flying Rio Grande herald. If anyone on the list has one they wish to sell please contact me off list.


                                        Thanks,

                                        Randy

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