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Re: My experience with HDTV

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  • _madbrain_
    ... Is anyone having success with those antennae in the south bay ? Also, are double-pane windows a factor in reception (my house has them) ? I watch TV on the
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Peter Cold <petercold@y...> wrote:
      > neither of those antennae are ideal. if you can't put
      > up an outdoor, you should at least try the silver
      > sensor or the radio shack double bow tie before giving
      > up on OTA all together...
      >
      > i'd be willing to bet you have a much better
      > expirience with wither of these antennae.
      >

      Is anyone having success with those antennae in the south bay ?
      Also, are double-pane windows a factor in reception (my house has them) ?
      I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the indoor
      antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?
    • Dan Sully
      * _madbrain_ shaped the electrons to say... ... Define South Bay ? I m in Mountain View (85xECR), which is arguably the peninsula.
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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        * _madbrain_ <madbrain@...> shaped the electrons to say...

        > Is anyone having success with those antennae in the south bay ?
        > Also, are double-pane windows a factor in reception (my house has them) ?
        > I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the indoor
        > antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?

        Define "South Bay" ?

        I'm in Mountain View (85xECR), which is arguably the peninsula.

        Silver Sensor works great, pulling all the Sutro stations.

        -D
        --
        <iNoah> I won't be satisfied until I have a rectally-insertable laptop
      • _madbrain_
        Hi, ... would have ... Sensor, ... Comcast if ... DirecTV ... I m interested in as much HDTV as possible, including local channels. I agree that satellite
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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          Hi,

          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Younghong Cho" <hongcho0@h...>
          wrote:
          > >From: "_madbrain_" <madbrain@t...>
          > >Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:58:07 -0000
          > >
          > >In conclusion, I'll wait for Dish network to come up with a better
          > >HDTV receiver - maybe a PVR.
          >
          > Sorry to hear that you can't do anything with the antenna. That
          would have
          > solved most of your problems. I don't have experience with Silver
          Sensor,
          > but that might work.
          >
          > As for Dish for HDTV... I think you'd be better off waiting for
          Comcast if
          > you are interested in the local HDTV channels. I doubt Dish or
          DirecTV
          > would be quick to carry local HDTV channels.

          I'm interested in as much HDTV as possible, including local channels.
          I agree that satellite providers are unlikely to carry local HD
          channels due to bandwidth requirements.

          I can do something with the antenna eventually, but it's a battle I
          just don't have time for right now.

          I think I will give OTA another try. Hopefully the new Dish receiver
          will also support OTA reception.
        • _madbrain_
          ... them) ? ... peninsula. I m in Santa Clara. It s hard to define where the south bay ends or starts. Mountain View isn t too far, but it s closer to the
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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            --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sully <daniel-yahoo@e...>
            wrote:
            > * _madbrain_ <madbrain@t...> shaped the electrons to say...
            >
            > > Is anyone having success with those antennae in the south bay ?
            > > Also, are double-pane windows a factor in reception (my house has
            them) ?
            > > I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the indoor
            > > antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?
            >
            > Define "South Bay" ?
            >
            > I'm in Mountain View (85xECR), which is arguably the
            peninsula.

            I'm in Santa Clara. It's hard to define where the south bay ends or
            starts. Mountain View isn't too far, but it's closer to the Sutro
            towers than Santa Clara by about 10 miles.

            > Silver Sensor works great, pulling all the Sutro stations.

            Sounds good, I wish I was so lucky. Do you ever reposition the antenna
            to pick up certain channels or did you find a sweet spot for it where
            you get everything ?
          • Peter Simon
            I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro. Any specific amp you might recommend? Peter H. Simon ... From: _madbrain_ [mailto:madbrain@thetaband.com]
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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              I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro.  Any specific amp you might recommend?

               

              Peter H. Simon

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: _madbrain_ [mailto:madbrain@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:01 AM
              To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: My experience with HDTV

               

              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Dan Sully <daniel-yahoo@e...>
              wrote:
              > * _madbrain_ <madbrain@t...> shaped the electrons to say...
              >
              > > Is anyone having success with those antennae in the south bay ?
              > > Also, are double-pane windows a factor in reception (my house has
              them) ?
              > > I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the  indoor
              > > antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?
              >
              >         Define "South Bay" ?
              >
              >         I'm in Mountain View (85xECR), which is arguably the
              peninsula.

              I'm in Santa Clara. It's hard to define where the south bay ends or
              starts. Mountain View isn't too far, but it's closer to the Sutro
              towers than Santa Clara by about 10 miles.

              >         Silver Sensor works great, pulling all the Sutro stations.

              Sounds good, I wish I was so lucky. Do you ever reposition the antenna
              to pick up certain channels or did you find a sweet spot for it where
              you get everything ?



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            • Dan Sully
              * _madbrain_ shaped the electrons to say... ... No repositioning. I have it zip-tied to the balcony railing. -D -- estupidos
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                * _madbrain_ <madbrain@...> shaped the electrons to say...

                > > Silver Sensor works great, pulling all the Sutro stations.
                >
                > Sounds good, I wish I was so lucky. Do you ever reposition the antenna
                > to pick up certain channels or did you find a sweet spot for it where
                > you get everything ?

                No repositioning. I have it zip-tied to the balcony railing.

                -D
                --
                estupidos pantalones
              • Don Cone
                ... Peter, It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears repeating once in a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer for HDTV
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                  on 4/1/03 7:43 AM, Peter Simon at simon@... wrote:

                  > I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro. Any specific amp
                  > you might recommend?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Peter H. Simon
                  >

                  Peter,

                  It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears repeating once in
                  a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer for HDTV
                  reception within 40 miles of the broadcast towers. The actual signal
                  strength in the Bay area is very strong unless you are in a location where
                  you are blocked by the terrain. In that case, the only solution is an
                  outdoor antenna and as high as possible. The real problem we have here and
                  most other locations as well is multi-path. Using simple indoor antennas
                  with amplifiers only makes it worse. If you want to receive all the digital
                  stations in the Bay Area, there is no FREE lunch! It takes a high gain
                  directional antenna on a rotator to do it. If that is impossible, we all
                  better hope that Comcast will provide HD local channels some day.

                  Don Cone
                • Richard Oliva
                  I live in San Jose in an apartment complex just behind San Jose City College. I live on the first floor of a two story building. Out my patio, about 20 yards
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                    I live in San Jose in an apartment complex just behind San Jose City College. I live on the first floor of a two story building.  Out my patio, about 20 yards away is another two story building. Just to the left, when standing on my patio, stands a tall, bushy tree.  I have a Silver Sensor antennae sitting on my patio. I have it aiming at approximately 300 degrees, towards San Francisco, towards the tree.  I receive channels 2, 4, 5 with a very strong signal. I receive 9 with an average signal. channel 7 is weak to normal.  sometimes I get a drop out and cannot pick it up.  Sometimes it has an average signal and does not drop out.  Now I also pick up 36, 44, 26 but I do not watch these.  The only addition I have made is to add a 10dB in-line amp that I attached directly to the antennae before I connected my coax cable.  I do notice a difference when I have the amp in.  Big change, maybe not, but signal strength shows a difference. 

                    Point being, I am either very lucky or digital signal pick-up is not as hard as some people say.  Oh, I am using the Zenith 420 HDTV OTA receiver.

                    rich

                     Don Cone <vdcone@...> wrote:

                    on 4/1/03 7:43 AM, Peter Simon at simon@... wrote:

                    > I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro.  Any specific amp
                    > you might recommend?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Peter H. Simon
                    >

                    Peter,

                    It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears repeating once in
                    a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer for HDTV
                    reception within 40 miles of the broadcast towers. The actual signal
                    strength in the Bay area is very strong unless you are in a location where
                    you are blocked by the terrain. In that case, the only solution is an
                    outdoor antenna and as high as possible. The real problem we have here and
                    most other locations as well is multi-path. Using simple indoor antennas
                    with amplifiers only makes it worse. If you want to receive all the digital
                    stations in the Bay Area, there is no FREE lunch! It takes a high gain
                    directional antenna on a rotator to do it. If that is impossible, we all
                    better hope that Comcast will provide HD local channels some day.

                    Don Cone



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                    HDTV-in-SFbay-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                  • Peter Cold
                    and i m in fremont and got all the sutro stations with a double bow tie before upgrading to an outdoor... ...
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                      and i'm in fremont and got all the sutro stations with
                      a double bow tie before upgrading to an outdoor...

                      --- Dan Sully <daniel-yahoo@...> wrote:
                      > * _madbrain_ <madbrain@...> shaped the
                      > electrons to say...
                      >
                      > > Is anyone having success with those antennae in
                      > the south bay ?
                      > > Also, are double-pane windows a factor in
                      > reception (my house has them) ?
                      > > I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to
                      > locate the indoor
                      > > antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the
                      > tuner ?
                      >
                      > Define "South Bay" ?
                      >
                      > I'm in Mountain View (85xECR), which is
                      > arguably the peninsula.
                      >
                      > Silver Sensor works great, pulling all the
                      > Sutro stations.
                      >
                      > -D
                      > --
                      > <iNoah> I won't be satisfied until I have a
                      > rectally-insertable laptop
                      >


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                    • anastrophe2
                      ... specific amp ... repeating once in ... for HDTV ... signal ... location where ... an ... here and ... antennas ... the digital ... gain ... we all ... what
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Cone <vdcone@p...> wrote:
                        > on 4/1/03 7:43 AM, Peter Simon at simon@u... wrote:
                        >
                        > > I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro. Any
                        specific amp
                        > > you might recommend?

                        > It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears
                        repeating once in
                        > a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer
                        for HDTV
                        > reception within 40 miles of the broadcast towers. The actual
                        signal
                        > strength in the Bay area is very strong unless you are in a
                        location where
                        > you are blocked by the terrain. In that case, the only solution is
                        an
                        > outdoor antenna and as high as possible. The real problem we have
                        here and
                        > most other locations as well is multi-path. Using simple indoor
                        antennas
                        > with amplifiers only makes it worse. If you want to receive all
                        the digital
                        > stations in the Bay Area, there is no FREE lunch! It takes a high
                        gain
                        > directional antenna on a rotator to do it. If that is impossible,
                        we all
                        > better hope that Comcast will provide HD local channels some day.

                        what 'free lunch' is he asking for? this is silly. if the issue is
                        not signal strength, then why are you recommending a high gain
                        antenna? a high quality preamp can indeed help. by increasing the
                        signal levels it assist the receiver in rejecting multipath signals,
                        which tend to be lower in strength than the primary. installing a
                        preamp is often a lot simpler than installing a new antenna, and the
                        likelyhood that it will make matters worse is low - again, presuming
                        a *high quality* preamp. it's also a lot easier to return a preamp
                        than most outdoor antennas. a lot of antennas use notched plastic
                        guides for the elements - once you extend the elements, it's
                        difficult if not impossible to return them to their original
                        position without damaging the antenna. that leaves you with an
                        albatross.

                        i agree that a rotator is very helpful. in fact, i think a rotator
                        is the most overlooked item when one does opt for a good quality
                        outdoor antenna. the human body acts as an antenna, so standing near
                        one's antenna while 'tweaking' the direction can give a false
                        response in terms of aiming. a rotator allows you to tweak the
                        antenna position in minute increments, without the interference of a
                        person standing next to it.
                      • George Ramirez
                        i live in san bruno next to san bruno park. i use a wingard antenna to pull the channels from sutro. ... specific amp ... repeating once in ... for HDTV ...
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                          i live in san bruno next to san bruno park. i use a wingard antenna to pull the channels from sutro.

                           anastrophe2 <hdtvinsfbay@...> wrote:

                          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Cone wrote:
                          > on 4/1/03 7:43 AM, Peter Simon at simon@u... wrote:
                          >
                          > > I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro. Any
                          specific amp
                          > > you might recommend?

                          > It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears
                          repeating once in
                          > a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer
                          for HDTV
                          > reception within 40 miles of the broadcast towers. The actual
                          signal
                          > strength in the Bay area is very strong unless you are in a
                          location where
                          > you are blocked by the terrain. In that case, the only solution is
                          an
                          > outdoor antenna and as high as possible. The real problem we have
                          here and
                          > most other locations as well is multi-path. Using simple indoor
                          antennas
                          > with amplifiers only makes it worse. If you want to receive all
                          the digital
                          > stations in the Bay Area, there is no FREE lunch! It takes a high
                          gain
                          > directional antenna on a rotator to do it. If that is impossible,
                          we all
                          > better hope that Comcast will provide HD local channels some day.

                          what 'free lunch' is he asking for? this is silly. if the issue is
                          not signal strength, then why are you recommending a high gain
                          antenna? a high quality preamp can indeed help. by increasing the
                          signal levels it assist the receiver in rejecting multipath signals,
                          which tend to be lower in strength than the primary. installing a
                          preamp is often a lot simpler than installing a new antenna, and the
                          likelyhood that it will make matters worse is low - again, presuming
                          a *high quality* preamp. it's also a lot easier to return a preamp
                          than most outdoor antennas. a lot of antennas use notched plastic
                          guides for the elements - once you extend the elements, it's
                          difficult if not impossible to return them to their original
                          position without damaging the antenna. that leaves you with an
                          albatross.

                          i agree that a rotator is very helpful. in fact, i think a rotator
                          is the most overlooked item when one does opt for a good quality
                          outdoor antenna. the human body acts as an antenna, so standing near
                          one's antenna while 'tweaking' the direction can give a false
                          response in terms of aiming. a rotator allows you to tweak the
                          antenna position in minute increments, without the interference of a
                          person standing next to it.



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                        • Ted Matsumura
                          Peter, As has been mentioned, an antenna pre-amp is not a magic solution, and with your distance to Sutro, it may not have any beneficial effects. However, if
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                            Peter,
                              As has been mentioned, an antenna pre-amp is not a magic solution, and with your distance to Sutro, it may not have any beneficial effects.
                             
                            However, if you do go with a preamp, and it does help me minimize dropouts on certain stations, receive higher signal strengths, and to handle long cable lengths with my outdoor antenna in Sunnyvale, consider getting a variable gain unit so you don't overload your tuner/receiver or have to fuss with attenuators. 
                             
                            Ted
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Peter Simon [mailto:simon@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:44 AM
                            To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: My experience with HDTV

                            I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro.  Any specific amp you might recommend?

                             

                            Peter H. Simon

                          • bobby6048
                            To further this and answer the original question, get a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. it is the high quality amp that anastrophe2 is talking about. He and I
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                              To further this and answer the original question, get a Channel
                              Master 7777 pre-amp. it is the high quality amp that anastrophe2 is
                              talking about. He and I both have one and they work very well.

                              Bobby C

                              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "anastrophe2"
                              <hdtvinsfbay@a...> wrote:
                              > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Cone <vdcone@p...> wrote:
                              > > on 4/1/03 7:43 AM, Peter Simon at simon@u... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > I live in Millbrae and can get just KGO from Sutro. Any
                              > specific amp
                              > > > you might recommend?
                              >
                              > > It has been mentioned many times in this group, but bears
                              > repeating once in
                              > > a while. You should be aware that amplifiers are not the answer
                              > for HDTV
                              > > reception within 40 miles of the broadcast towers. The actual
                              > signal
                              > > strength in the Bay area is very strong unless you are in a
                              > location where
                              > > you are blocked by the terrain. In that case, the only solution
                              is
                              > an
                              > > outdoor antenna and as high as possible. The real problem we have
                              > here and
                              > > most other locations as well is multi-path. Using simple indoor
                              > antennas
                              > > with amplifiers only makes it worse. If you want to receive all
                              > the digital
                              > > stations in the Bay Area, there is no FREE lunch! It takes a high
                              > gain
                              > > directional antenna on a rotator to do it. If that is impossible,
                              > we all
                              > > better hope that Comcast will provide HD local channels some day.
                              >
                              > what 'free lunch' is he asking for? this is silly. if the issue is
                              > not signal strength, then why are you recommending a high gain
                              > antenna? a high quality preamp can indeed help. by increasing the
                              > signal levels it assist the receiver in rejecting multipath
                              signals,
                              > which tend to be lower in strength than the primary. installing a
                              > preamp is often a lot simpler than installing a new antenna, and
                              the
                              > likelyhood that it will make matters worse is low - again,
                              presuming
                              > a *high quality* preamp. it's also a lot easier to return a preamp
                              > than most outdoor antennas. a lot of antennas use notched plastic
                              > guides for the elements - once you extend the elements, it's
                              > difficult if not impossible to return them to their original
                              > position without damaging the antenna. that leaves you with an
                              > albatross.
                              >
                              > i agree that a rotator is very helpful. in fact, i think a rotator
                              > is the most overlooked item when one does opt for a good quality
                              > outdoor antenna. the human body acts as an antenna, so standing
                              near
                              > one's antenna while 'tweaking' the direction can give a false
                              > response in terms of aiming. a rotator allows you to tweak the
                              > antenna position in minute increments, without the interference of
                              a
                              > person standing next to it.
                            • Bob Spofford
                              It might help a lot. Altitude
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                <<I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the indoor
                                antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?>>

                                It might help a lot. Altitude is gold in getting more signal strength, and
                                often in improving the ratio of direct to reflected (i.e. multipath) too.
                                Getting higher gets you closer to a true line-of-sight to the tower. If
                                this entails a long cable run to the set (e.g. more than 20 ft or so) Then a
                                pre-amp might might be useful to overcome transmission line losses. The
                                ideal way to experiment would be to try the upstairs location first with a
                                short cable - either by moving the HD set upstairs or just taking the stb up
                                there and connecting it to a plain old TV. Then if that works, try the long
                                cable run and see if you need a pre-amp.
                              • Peter Simon
                                Anybody have any luck with the Channel Master 3010 Stealth antenna (for Millbrae) ... From: Bob Spofford [mailto:spoffo@bbdowest.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01,
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                  Message
                                  Anybody have any luck with the Channel Master 3010 Stealth antenna  (for Millbrae)
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Bob Spofford [mailto:spoffo@...]
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 11:18 AM
                                  To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] RE: My experience with HDTV

                                  <<I watch TV on the first floor. Would it help to locate the  indoor
                                  antenna upstairs and run a long cable down to the tuner ?>>

                                  It might help a lot.  Altitude is gold in getting more signal strength, and
                                  often in improving the ratio of direct to reflected (i.e. multipath) too.
                                  Getting higher gets you closer to a true line-of-sight to the tower.  If
                                  this entails a long cable run to the set (e.g. more than 20 ft or so) Then a
                                  pre-amp might might be useful to overcome transmission line losses. The
                                  ideal way to experiment would be to try the upstairs location first with a
                                  short cable - either by moving the HD set upstairs or just taking the stb up
                                  there and connecting it to a plain old TV.  Then if that works, try the long
                                  cable run and see if you need a pre-amp.


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                                  HDTV-in-SFbay-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                                • Larry Kenney
                                  ... I agree! Without a rotor I would need at least five antennas. While I live close enough to Sutro to get decent reception on those stations using an indoor
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                    anastrophe2 wrote:
                                    > ...i think a rotator is the most overlooked item when
                                    > one does opt for a good quality outdoor antenna.

                                    I agree! Without a rotor I would need at least five antennas.
                                    While I live close enough to Sutro to get decent reception on
                                    those stations using an indoor antenna, I can't get any of the
                                    other stations with it.

                                    Using an outdoor UHF antenna, a Channel Master 4228, I get
                                    digital stations from Mt. San Bruno - 41, Mt. Allison - 49 and
                                    51, Monument Peak - 52, and Novato - 47. I couldn't do it
                                    without the rotor, since the signals come from four different
                                    directions. The rotor also allows me to receive several analog
                                    stations from Santa Rosa, Sacramento, Mt. Diablo, and San Jose.

                                    Note that channel 27 is missing from the list above. For some
                                    reason, even though it's on Mt. San Bruno, the same place as
                                    41 and just four miles away, I only get a signal strength of
                                    5-10 on 27 with the UHF antenna. However, if I make a switch
                                    to my VHF yagi that's pointing at Loma Prieta for channel 12,
                                    I get 27 just fine. This shows that the location of your
                                    antenna can make a big difference, even if the distance is
                                    only about 15 feet.

                                    As I've written before, I need three antennas, one with a rotor,
                                    to get all of the digital stations. I'm sure many people would
                                    not make the effort I have, but for me it's been a challenge to
                                    get all of the stations...and I've succeeded. Those of you who
                                    can point your antenna and lock it in one direction and get all
                                    of the stations are very lucky! It's sure not that easy here
                                    in San Francisco.

                                    Larry
                                  • garygold123
                                    What is it that you find that is worth watching on those channels (41, 49, 51, 52, 57)? The reason I ask is that I am able to receive channels such as 65-1
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                      What is it that you find that is worth watching on those channels
                                      (41, 49, 51, 52, 57)? The reason I ask is that I am able to receive
                                      channels such as 65-1 and 27-1, 38-1, however the content on these
                                      channels is of absolutely no interest to me (foreign language,
                                      shopping etc).
                                    • Don Cone
                                      ... We have had this argument before. What do you think a high gain antenna does for HDTV? It s not about signal strength it is about directivity. It reduces
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                        on 4/1/03 9:49 AM, anastrophe2 at hdtvinsfbay@... wrote:

                                        > what 'free lunch' is he asking for? this is silly. if the issue is
                                        > not signal strength, then why are you recommending a high gain
                                        > antenna? a high quality preamp can indeed help. by increasing the
                                        > signal levels it assist the receiver in rejecting multipath signals,
                                        > which tend to be lower in strength than the primary. installing a
                                        > preamp is often a lot simpler than installing a new antenna, and the
                                        > likelyhood that it will make matters worse is low - again, presuming
                                        > a *high quality* preamp. it's also a lot easier to return a preamp
                                        > than most outdoor antennas. a lot of antennas use notched plastic
                                        > guides for the elements - once you extend the elements, it's
                                        > difficult if not impossible to return them to their original
                                        > position without damaging the antenna. that leaves you with an
                                        > albatross.

                                        We have had this argument before. What do you think a "high gain" antenna
                                        does for HDTV? It's not about signal strength it is about directivity. It
                                        reduces multi-path. I stated that if you are within 40 miles of the towers
                                        you do NOT need a preamp.

                                        I agree that if you are further away and have no local high power
                                        interference then a "high quality" preamp will help if it does not overload
                                        from other signal sources. By the way, a preamp amplifies the multi-path and
                                        interference as well as the desired signal - there is no discrimination
                                        between the good and the bad. A directional antenna increases the gain in
                                        the desired direction only and reduces the signal from the rear and sides.
                                        Simple indoor antennas have a very broad pattern and are vulnerable to
                                        multi-path.

                                        If you live in the middle of the San Mateo bridge, you might get them all
                                        with a wet noodle and no preamp.

                                        Those viewers with 3rd generation digital receivers will have a better
                                        chance of getting good results with a lot less antenna. Maybe someday we
                                        will have receivers that can use the multi-path to increase performance, but
                                        not today.

                                        Don Cone
                                      • anastrophe2
                                        ... antenna ... gives you a stronger signal. same as a preamp. i think you re confusing high gain with highly directional. they are not the same. ... then why
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Cone <vdcone@p...> wrote:
                                          > We have had this argument before. What do you think a "high gain"
                                          antenna
                                          > does for HDTV?

                                          gives you a stronger signal. same as a preamp. i think you're
                                          confusing high gain with highly directional. they are not the same.

                                          > It's not about signal strength it is about directivity.

                                          then why are you recommending a high-gain antenna? if you have a
                                          strong signal you don't need a high gain antenna according to your
                                          claim that a preamp won't help. if signal strength is irrelevant,
                                          then a low-gain antenna would be fine.

                                          > It reduces multi-path. I stated that if you are within 40 miles of
                                          the towers
                                          > you do NOT need a preamp.

                                          and likewise, you do not need a high gain antenna.

                                          > I agree that if you are further away and have no local high power
                                          > interference then a "high quality" preamp will help if it does not
                                          overload
                                          > from other signal sources. By the way, a preamp amplifies the
                                          multi-path and
                                          > interference as well as the desired signal - there is no
                                          discrimination
                                          > between the good and the bad.

                                          i addressed that point in my original post.


                                          A directional antenna increases the gain in
                                          > the desired direction only and reduces the signal from the rear
                                          and sides.
                                          > Simple indoor antennas have a very broad pattern and are
                                          vulnerable to
                                          > multi-path.

                                          all antennas are vulnerable to multipath, but yes, non-directional
                                          indoor antennas are highly prone to it.

                                          Maybe someday we
                                          > will have receivers that can use the multi-path to increase
                                          performance, but
                                          > not today.
                                          >
                                          > Don Cone
                                        • Don Cone
                                          ... They ARE the same. You seem to be very confused about high gain and antennas. An antenna becomes high gain by focusing energy into a a single beam. An
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                            on 4/1/03 3:08 PM, anastrophe2 at hdtvinsfbay@... wrote:

                                            > gives you a stronger signal. same as a preamp. i think you're
                                            > confusing high gain with highly directional. they are not the same.

                                            They ARE the same. You seem to be very confused about "high gain" and
                                            antennas. An antenna becomes high gain by focusing energy into a a single
                                            beam. An antenna with 12db gain (high) has a narrower beam then one with 3db
                                            gain (low). In other words it is more directional. More directional equals
                                            fewer multi-path reflections.

                                            You are using a high gain antenna and adding a preamp because you are not
                                            located within 40 miles of all Bay Area towers. Use what works for you, but
                                            don't be giving some guy who is less than 10 miles from Sutro bad advice by
                                            telling him to add a preamp. The 7777 is not good enough to handle the very
                                            high signal levels from other sources like FM transmitters. I think most who
                                            have some knowledge of preamps, antennas and RF propagation would agree.

                                            Lest we forget, those signal numbers we all quote from our digital receivers
                                            are not RF signal strength. They relate to error rate. In the digital world,
                                            multi-path has a huge impact on error rate. If the numbers are small and
                                            jump around a lot, and there is no "snow" on your analog UHF picture you
                                            have a multi-path problem. If you have "snow" on analog UHF, you have a
                                            signal strength problem. Maybe a little over simplified, but it's a valid
                                            reference.

                                            Don Cone
                                          • Chester Rockwell
                                            hello, need advice, i m thinking of getting a channel master antenna or radio shack outdoor antenna. my question is, will one of these outdoor antenna s work
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                              hello,

                                              need advice, i'm thinking of getting a channel master antenna or radio shack
                                              outdoor antenna. my question is, will one of these outdoor antenna's work
                                              well in my attic? i'd like to try the attic approach first before commiting
                                              the external roof antenna apporach. i have at least 6'5" or 80" radius to
                                              play with in my attack. also i'm planning on using a rotator to fine tune
                                              the weaker channels. i'm located in fremont, right now i'm using an older
                                              radio shack indoor antenna similar to the Terk 55. i'm getting mainly 9.1
                                              and 11.1 very strong, but the others 4.2, 5.1, 7.2 are very weak and if i
                                              fine tune to any of the channels 4.2, 5.1, or 7.2.. i'll get one but not
                                              all. channels like 20.1, i've never got a signal. any input would be
                                              appreciated such as max or min antenna size.

                                              thanks,
                                              chester






                                              >From: Larry Kenney <Larry@...>
                                              >Reply-To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                              >To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: My experience with HDTV
                                              >Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 12:56:15 -0800
                                              >
                                              >anastrophe2 wrote:
                                              > > ...i think a rotator is the most overlooked item when
                                              > > one does opt for a good quality outdoor antenna.
                                              >
                                              >I agree! Without a rotor I would need at least five antennas.
                                              >While I live close enough to Sutro to get decent reception on
                                              >those stations using an indoor antenna, I can't get any of the
                                              >other stations with it.
                                              >
                                              >Using an outdoor UHF antenna, a Channel Master 4228, I get
                                              >digital stations from Mt. San Bruno - 41, Mt. Allison - 49 and
                                              >51, Monument Peak - 52, and Novato - 47. I couldn't do it
                                              >without the rotor, since the signals come from four different
                                              >directions. The rotor also allows me to receive several analog
                                              >stations from Santa Rosa, Sacramento, Mt. Diablo, and San Jose.
                                              >
                                              >Note that channel 27 is missing from the list above. For some
                                              >reason, even though it's on Mt. San Bruno, the same place as
                                              >41 and just four miles away, I only get a signal strength of
                                              >5-10 on 27 with the UHF antenna. However, if I make a switch
                                              >to my VHF yagi that's pointing at Loma Prieta for channel 12,
                                              >I get 27 just fine. This shows that the location of your
                                              >antenna can make a big difference, even if the distance is
                                              >only about 15 feet.
                                              >
                                              >As I've written before, I need three antennas, one with a rotor,
                                              >to get all of the digital stations. I'm sure many people would
                                              >not make the effort I have, but for me it's been a challenge to
                                              >get all of the stations...and I've succeeded. Those of you who
                                              >can point your antenna and lock it in one direction and get all
                                              >of the stations are very lucky! It's sure not that easy here
                                              >in San Francisco.
                                              >
                                              >Larry
                                              >
                                              >


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                                            • James Wilkinson
                                              From: Don Cone ... receivers ... world, ... I m curious, I usually see people quoting numbers from 0 to 100, how does that relate to
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 1, 2003
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                                                From: "Don Cone" <vdcone@...>
                                                > Lest we forget, those signal numbers we all quote from our digital
                                                receivers
                                                > are not RF signal strength. They relate to error rate. In the digital
                                                world,
                                                > multi-path has a huge impact on error rate. If the numbers are small and
                                                > jump around a lot, and there is no "snow" on your analog UHF picture you
                                                > have a multi-path problem. If you have "snow" on analog UHF, you have a
                                                > signal strength problem. Maybe a little over simplified, but it's a valid
                                                > reference.

                                                I'm curious, I usually see people quoting numbers from 0 to 100, how does
                                                that relate to error rate? If someone has a signal of "75" but has a
                                                perfect picture, what exactly does this mean? I ask because on my setup I
                                                get SNR along with a separate absolute error rate count rather than some
                                                number between 0 and 100. When I get a "perfect" picture this seems to
                                                correlate with a zero error count and an SNR at least in the high teens.

                                                James
                                              • Larry Kenney
                                                ... Channel 41 is 65-1 KKPX and I ve watched a couple of shows on that channel. Channel 52 is 36-1 KICU, which has lots of good oldie shows and the A s games.
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                                  garygold123 wrote:
                                                  > What is it that you find that is worth watching on those channels
                                                  > (41, 49, 51, 52, 57)? The reason I ask is that I am able to receive
                                                  > channels such as 65-1 and 27-1, 38-1, however the content on these
                                                  > channels is of absolutely no interest to me (foreign language,
                                                  > shopping etc).

                                                  Channel 41 is 65-1 KKPX and I've watched a couple of shows on that
                                                  channel. Channel 52 is 36-1 KICU, which has lots of good oldie
                                                  shows and the A's games. I watched and recorded an hour of HDTV
                                                  programming on 57, which is KRON 4-1.

                                                  The others I don't watch. I don't speak Spanish and I'm not into
                                                  the Shopping Network stuff. For those it was simply the challenge
                                                  of trying to receive them. My next move is to try and get the
                                                  digital channels out of Sacramento...just for the hell of it.

                                                  As I said, most people wouldn't make the effort that I have, but
                                                  for me it's just been a fun challenge to try and get all of the
                                                  stations. I guess that's why I'm a ham radio operator, too.

                                                  Larry
                                                • Larry Kenney
                                                  Chester... I highly recommend the Channel Master 4228. I ve had very good luck with it. It even does a good job on the analog VHF stations, even though it s
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 2, 2003
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                                                    Chester...

                                                    I highly recommend the Channel Master 4228. I've had very
                                                    good luck with it. It even does a good job on the analog
                                                    VHF stations, even though it's a UHF only antenna.

                                                    It's about three to four feet square, so it should fit in
                                                    the space you have. I bought mine from Chris at Remtronics
                                                    in San Mateo...650-548-1992.

                                                    Larry
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