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Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

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  • Ron Economos
    All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the main specification. http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default A/54A is
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
      All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the
      main specification.

      http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default

      A/54A is also useful.

      http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/recommended-practices

      However, the MPEG-2 specification is more useful in regards to
      aspect ratio. You can download an older version here which is
      entirely adequate for aspect ratio research.

      http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.262-199507-S/en

      For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel
      formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.
      The use of pictures was an attempt to make it easier
      ("seeing is believing"), but it's difficult to know what's
      going to help for everyone.

      Ron

      On 2/25/2013 6:37 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
       

      

      Hi,

      I am not complaining about a picture that fills my 16:9 display, in fact I am very glad and wish more streams were sent this way.

      A lot of my DTV viewing is done using VLC Media Player that allows me to crop the 16:9 picture sent as SD to fill the entire 16:9 screen.

      I just may have discovered another switch in VLC Media Player to allow 16:9 pictures letterboxed and pilloried and sent as 16:9 to allow the 16:9 program to fill my 16:9 screen. Something that I have wished I could do for a long time. I just have not captured a program lately sent this horrible way.

      Of the four tuner types I have, only the type that has defective software and aborted when KKPX (ION) sent bad PSIP a while ago showed the Postage Stamp picture problem. It has a switch to fix the problem.

      The second report OTA has a switch to correct the Postage Stamp problem.

      It just remains for "Duke and Rat" to report that their tuner also has a switch to fix the Postage Stamp problem. It is a very small number of tuners that do the wrong thing, just "Duke and Rat"'s bad luck to have one.

      As I said, I did not read the ATSC document when I downloaded it years ago.

      Today, If I remember correctly, you must pay the cost of printing the document starting with buying the land to grow the trees on for the paper, the cost of bricks used in building the pulp mill, the cost of obtaining the ink, the cost of the building the press is in, the cost of mining the ore for the printing press ... and so on.

      If it is a free download, please provide a link and perhaps I will skim it for the answer.

      Sorry but I did not understand your previous post if it was the one with pictures, I am not one of the people that learns everything from youTube.

      I needed to use my calculator to do 4/3, 704/480 and 16/9 to understand.

      I do not know where my slide rule is so I could not use it.

      Pictures, no help, simply showing "4/3, 704/480 and 16/9" would have done the trick.

      SHF

    • Duke And Rat
      For the record, I am a retired radio engineer. I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio. Therefore, when most people watch
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
        For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.

        I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.

        Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio. Unfortunately, people like me and Ron Estes, who was the audio engineer when Carson was hosting the show, both held our fingers over our ears at what the show had become. A few years ago before he died. "Duke," Ron wrote me once, "TV is a vast wasteland of bad audio." Mostly, he was referring to Leno's audio, which is about as good as an AT&T dial up phone.

        Neither of us knew or know anything about what you guys do. I suppose you could call us dirt. The low man on the totem pole.

        But back when we were working, there were real human beings, that would respond to problems. You could actually talk to an engineer in charge. Now there's computers that don't even realize that they're airing a movie without sound. And they apparently can do so for 45 minutes and not know it. And they also apparently can mess us the aspect ratio. And industry executives raking in millions.

        But all in all, I would appreciate a little more respect from everybody here.



        To answer your question, there are no settings. This is apparently another comcast problem.








        BD


        On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:35 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

        > Hi,
        >
        > The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability.
        >
        > Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep
        > reading you can gain a lot of information on things you want to learn more
        > about.
        >
        > I have 38 subscriptions and seldom post to any others.
        >
        > I have 12 that usually have posts and I see the same people on most of them.
        >
        > New persons should go to the end and read backward.
        >
        > On AVS there are people that are real experts that are subscribed like I am.
        >
        > Post are usually answered quickly.
        >
        > HDTV-in-SFbay has a few station engineers, one of which sometimes posts.
        >
        > Beyond those and Larry, HDTV-in-SFbay is a waste land IMHO.
        >
        > The COZI problem gets more interesting, I have found two more streams that
        > are 704/480 (4:3).
        >
        > Same screen size and marked 4:3 instead of 16:9.
        >
        >> I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth responding
        >> to
        >
        > Usually they are not, this one was. Now if he can just find the right button
        > on the remote, he will be happy.
        >
        > SHF
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
        > To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:41 PM
        > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
        > continues.
        >
        >
        >> Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the
        >> lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go
        >> through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url
        >> question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
        >> It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one
        >> machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why I
        >> asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200
        >> digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are
        >> worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld
        >> through the jetsam.
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >>
        >> From: Stephen H. Fischer
        >> Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
        >> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
        >> continues.
        >>
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
        >> please make it available.
        >>
        >> Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?
        >>
        >> Fusion has
        >> "Stretched",
        >> "Original Ratio",
        >> "16:9 Fixed",
        >> "4:3 Fixed",
        >> "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
        >> "16:10 Fixed".
        >>
        >> "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
        >> display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
        >> streams I receive and has been used in all testing.
        >>
        >> Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
        >> "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
        >> Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
        >> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123
        >>
        >> I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum,
        >> P.I"
        >> on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.
        >>
        >> I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
        >> other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
        >> and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.
        >>
        >> 4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.
        >>
        >> So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.
        >>
        >> SHF
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Stephen H. Fischer
        ... From: Duke And Rat To: Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Duke And Rat" <dukenrat@...>
          To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
          continues.
          ...>
          > To answer your question, there are no settings. This is apparently another
          > comcast problem.
          >

          Sorry, you are the only person in a million army men marching in step that
          is out of step.

          It's a programming error in your tuner. The programmers that did the
          software for displaying a MPEG2 file did not understand that "when the MPEG
          says it's to be treated as 16:9, it MUST be treated as 16:9"!

          The Fusion programmers made the mistake of not obeying the "ORDER", Chuck's
          tuner made the mistake and yours also.

          There may be other tuners where this mistake has been made, my other three
          tuners have no problem. The overwhelming number of other tuners in the world
          have NOT made this mistake.


          It cannot be a Comcast problem because I am OTA only and the last time I had
          Cable was well over thirty years ago.


          You have lost this one clearly, it is time for you to shut up.

          SHF
        • Don Hackler
          ... I m both a radio engineer and a TV engineer. In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU meter is moving, the audio is considered
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
            On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
            > For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
            >
            > I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
            >
            > Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.

            I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.

            In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
            meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
            are often not even turned up.

            That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
          • Duke And Rat
            Thank you for being civil. I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
              Thank you for being civil.

              I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.



              BD




              On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:

              > On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
              >> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
              >>
              >> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
              >>
              >> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
              >
              > I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
              >
              > In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
              > meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
              > are often not even turned up.
              >
              > That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Don Hackler
              That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.

                On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Duke And Rat <dukenrat@...> wrote:

                > Thank you for being civil.
                >
                > I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.
                >
                >
                >
                > BD
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:
                >
                >> On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                >>> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                >>>
                >>> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                >>>
                >>> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
                >>
                >> I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
                >>
                >> In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                >> meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                >> are often not even turned up.
                >>
                >> That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Duke And Rat
                Well, I use a homemade amp and speakers. It goes boom-boom and tweet-tweet. My engineer friend says the cardboard enclosure(?) from his station cut off all the
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                  Well, I use a homemade amp and speakers. It goes boom-boom and tweet-tweet.

                  My engineer friend says the cardboard enclosure(?) from his station cut off all the lows, and the midrange was squishy.

                  But if you really wanna talk about bad audio ... how about those table top metal TV's from the early 60's? They had a 3-4" speaker that acted more like a tweeter than a midrange, and if actually managed to find any bass, it would jar a tube in the IF strip or Horizontal Osc and make the picture vibrate with the sound.

                  I hated those things!





                  BD




                  On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:27 PM, Don Hackler wrote:

                  > That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.
                  >
                  > On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Duke And Rat <dukenrat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Thank you for being civil.
                  >>
                  >> I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> BD
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                  >>>> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                  >>>>
                  >>>> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
                  >>>
                  >>> I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
                  >>>
                  >>> In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                  >>> meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                  >>> are often not even turned up.
                  >>>
                  >>> That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Stephen H. Fischer
                  Hi, I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much. Thanks. I am wondering if this guess is ~
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 28, 2013
                    

                    Hi,

                    I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much.

                    Thanks.

                    I am wondering if this guess is ~ correct,

                    That the pixel shapes for the following resolutions is about the same:

                    1920x1080 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                    1280x720 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                    704x480 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                    704x480 (4:3 program on 4:3 display)

                    > For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel

                    > formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.

                    I think I am in that class, but then "string theory" is just as far beyond me.

                    You do say non square, does that mean that the first two are square?

                    I do have an idea of the "big bang" down very hot.

                    Looking at your pictures I think that they were not helpful to me was because they did not show the additional black bands I am seeing.

                    I was looking at a screen that is fixed in size with an additional black band and your pictures were wider than each other with out the additional black band.

                    The document parts I scanned clearly show 704x480 in places. So that was not just stations guessing at a V and H.

                    Finding two streams marked 704x480 (4:3) in addition to COZI's 704x480 (16:9) was a surprise.

                    ------------------------------

                    I now have a Magnum, P.I. Which the OP first complained about.

                    It looks exactly like Sherlock Holmes does on Fusion with original ratio selected, an additional BLACK band on both sides. Selecting 16:9 Fixed produces a normal picture. MyHD and VLC Media Player also show a normal picture.

                    So this problem is understood, an programming error in the tuner!

                    SHF

                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message ----- 
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:22 PM
                    Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

                    All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the
                    main specification.

                    http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default

                    A/54A is also useful.

                    http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/recommended-practices

                    However, the MPEG-2 specification is more useful in regards to
                    aspect ratio. You can download an older version here which is
                    entirely adequate for aspect ratio research.

                    http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.262-199507-S/en

                    For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel
                    formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.
                    The use of pictures was an attempt to make it easier
                    ("seeing is believing"), but it's difficult to know what's
                    going to help for everyone.

                    Ron

                  • Ron Economos
                    The pixel (sample) aspect ratio can be calculated like this (from section 6.3.3 of the MPEG-2 specification I linked to): sample aspect ratio = display aspect
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 1 4:49 PM
                      The pixel (sample) aspect ratio can be calculated like this (from
                      section 6.3.3 of the MPEG-2 specification I linked to):

                      sample aspect ratio = display aspect ratio * horizontal size / vertical size

                      So for 1920x1080 at 16:9 it would be:

                      (9/16) * (1920/1080) = 1 (square pixels)

                      For 704x480 at 16:9 it would be:

                      (9/16) * (704/480) = 0.825 (non-square pixels).

                      The typical way to test aspect ratios is to use a test pattern
                      with circles. Any distortion can be easily seen. Here's a
                      few bitstreams I created with a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.

                      1) 720x480 at 16:9, just like Cozi is sending except 720 wide instead of 704

                      http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9.ts

                      2) 544x480 at 16:9, just to see how the decoder handles it. 544 wide is a
                      valid MPEG-2 resolution.

                      http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9_544.ts

                      3) 720x480 at 4:3 with a display extension for 16:9. Again, just to see
                      how the decoder handles it. A compliant decoder should display a
                      16:9 image even though the aspect ratio is signaled as 4:3. Most
                      (but not all) versions of VLC will do the correct thing.

                      http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9_ext.ts

                      All clips are about a minute long and about 144 Megabytes. Audio
                      is silent. Have fun!

                      Ron

                      On 2/28/2013 10:00 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                       

                      Hi,

                      I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much.

                      Thanks.

                      I am wondering if this guess is ~ correct,

                      That the pixel shapes for the following resolutions is about the same:

                      1920x1080 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                      1280x720 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                      704x480 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                      704x480 (4:3 program on 4:3 display)

                      > For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel

                      > formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.

                      I think I am in that class, but then "string theory" is just as far beyond me.

                      You do say non square, does that mean that the first two are square?

                      I do have an idea of the "big bang" down very hot.

                      Looking at your pictures I think that they were not helpful to me was because they did not show the additional black bands I am seeing.

                      I was looking at a screen that is fixed in size with an additional black band and your pictures were wider than each other with out the additional black band.

                      The document parts I scanned clearly show 704x480 in places. So that was not just stations guessing at a V and H.

                      Finding two streams marked 704x480 (4:3) in addition to COZI's 704x480 (16:9) was a surprise.

                      ------------------------------

                      I now have a Magnum, P.I. Which the OP first complained about.

                      It looks exactly like Sherlock Holmes does on Fusion with original ratio selected, an additional BLACK band on both sides. Selecting 16:9 Fixed produces a normal picture. MyHD and VLC Media Player also show a normal picture.

                      So this problem is understood, an programming error in the tuner!

                      SHF

                    • Stephen H. Fischer
                      Hi, Fusion with 16:9 Fixed showed all three clips at full width on my 16:9 screen When I switched to Original Ratio 3) had the BLACK bands added to each
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 1 8:39 PM
                        
                        Hi,
                         
                        Fusion with "16:9 Fixed" showed all three clips at full width on my 16:9 screen
                         
                        When I switched to "Original Ratio" 3) had the BLACK bands added to each side and the circles were not round.
                         
                        My new 6 - Million Dollar Man Eyes could not really tell any difference with "16:9 Fixed" between the three.
                         
                        If you have a FTP for uploads, send me a PM with password, I captured an interesting KGO test pattern long ago. (3/6/2006) It's 39 MB in size.
                         

                        mailto:a_nani_mouse@...

                        SHF
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:49 PM
                        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

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