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Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

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  • bill weber
    I wàitig for the movie of the 2015 queen to lose the guards to the weens secret labatories. ... From: bill weber Sent: 22 Feb 2013 11:19:17 GMT To:
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 22, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      I wàitig for the movie of the 2015 queen to lose the guards to the weens secret labatories.


      -----Original Message-----

      From: bill weber
      Sent: 22 Feb 2013 11:19:17 GMT
      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

      Okay, Cyndie Lauper supports whats his face.... girls just want to have fun. Find on youtube before I shag my poodle with scisores homosapians.

      -----Original Message-----

      From: bill weber
      Sent: 22 Feb 2013 08:32:17 GMT
      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

      Make a sig and put your hardware in there please. I use a LG 4200 tuner. I have never seen your problems. Wasn't that a statement by me. I've moved on to a pocket pc with a cellphone transmitter(droid bionic). If your technicians, your kids would like a rasberrypi device.

      -----Original Message-----

      From: Duke And Rat
      Sent: 22 Feb 2013 07:56:20 GMT
      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

      I've mentioned comcast before.

      It appears that enough people complained about 7.1, so the KGO Time Machine is now fixed. YAY!

      Except the audio's a little funny on ABC news shows, both local and network. When they come back from commercial, the audio is low, and slowly creeps up. Oh, let me guess, it's a comcast problem!




      BD




      On Feb 21, 2013, at 9:59 PM, bill weber wrote:

      > I like hearing about Comcraps problems here. But I don't like the complaints from individuals that assume OTA broadcasts are the same. Proper full disclosure from you now on as to what equipment you are using and under what conditions you are experiencing your problems, hey RAT? Sometimes putting the beer can down before posting might help..keep posting as I enjoy it. I mean no malice.
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      >
      > From: Duke And Rat
      > Sent: 22 Feb 2013 03:07:53 GMT
      > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.
      >
      > I'm thinking, that like the movie they showed with 45 MINUTES OF NO SOUND, the whole package was put together months and months ago by some NBC bigwig who knew not too much about technical skills. So, EVEN IF THEY DO ACTUALLY READ YOUR E-MAIL, it would take months, if not years to correct, as it's not helping Comcast's stock market rating.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > BD
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
      >
      >> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22995588
      >>
      >>
      >> I have done a bunch of testing and I think I know what is wrong with Cozi.
      >>
      >>
      >> "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" (1956) is a 4:3 program which must be
      >> upconverted to 16:9. This has been done correctly.
      >>
      >>
      >> Once the up conversion process has been done it is a 16:9 program and must
      >> be labeled and treated as 16:9.
      >>
      >>
      >> Somewhere in the PSIP or the MPEG2 file itself there must be a place where
      >> the aspect ratio is to be placed but it is blank or invalid.
      >>
      >>
      >> On my newly repaired Vista Laptop (Remember always to use the correct glue
      >> when installing your GPU! Or lose $475, thanks NVIDIA) I was able to see
      >> that there are two black bands on each side.
      >>
      >>
      >> The outermost band is BLACK and the innermost band is black with SNOW. The
      >> inner black SNOW band was added by the up conversion process. The outer
      >> BLACK band is added by the Fusion software when it thinks it is displaying a
      >> 4:3 picture on a 16:9 device.
      >>
      >>
      >> As most tuners and display programs like VLC Media Player assume 16:9 the
      >> BLACK band is not added and there is no problem.
      >>
      >>
      >> Fusion assumed 4:3 and adds the BLACK band when displaying on a 16:9 device.
      >> It did not on my spare HTPC which has a 4:3 CPU display.
      >>
      >>
      >> If you see the postage stamp aspect ratio, look closely and I expect you
      >> will see the two differing bands.
      >>
      >>
      >> I have sent a message to Cozi but I do not expect an answer.
      >>
      >>
      >> SHF
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >



      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • bill weber
      all rat and fischer posts removed for brevity. ... From: sipson@calalum.org Sent: 22 Feb 2013 03:44:16 GMT To: Stephen H. Fischer,HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 22, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        all rat and fischer posts removed for brevity.


        -----Original Message-----

        From: sipson@...
        Sent: 22 Feb 2013 03:44:16 GMT
        To: Stephen H. Fischer,HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

        I have been in southern california for a while. None of the problems described with regard to cozi are occurring down here. Knbc 4.2 is fine, no problem with aspect ratio. So the problem appears to be local to kntv or comcast.
        Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "Stephen H. Fischer" <SFischer1@...>
        Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 03:38:21
        To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
        continues.





        Hi,

        I am hoping that KNTV will somehow get a message that something is wrong and
        that those who understand PSIP will become involved.

        The problem is that the PSIP looks right, 16:9 is stated in the one place
        that if missing would prove my idea.

        There are people that care about getting things right and making things
        work. That has been my life long personal goal.

        The bigwigs make the decisions, they have knowledgeable people to carry out
        their orders.

        Other stations do not have this problem and KNTV's 11.1 does not for sure.

        SHF

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Duke And Rat" dukenrat@... <mailto:dukenrat%40sonic.net> >
        To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com> >
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:07 PM
        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
        continues.

        > I'm thinking, that like the movie they showed with 45 MINUTES OF NO SOUND,
        > the whole package was put together months and months ago by some NBC
        > bigwig who knew not too much about technical skills. So, EVEN IF THEY DO
        > ACTUALLY READ YOUR E-MAIL, it would take months, if not years to correct,
        > as it's not helping Comcast's stock market rating.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > BD
        >





        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Stephen H. Fischer
        Hi, My equipment list is in my profile on AVS. http://www.avsforum.com/u/7523129/sfischer1 I have one Fusion5 RT GOLD, one Fusion7 Dual and one Fusion7 USB.
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 22, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,

          My equipment list is in my profile on AVS.

          http://www.avsforum.com/u/7523129/sfischer1

          I have one Fusion5 RT GOLD, one Fusion7 Dual and one Fusion7 USB.

          The defective software is version 3.91.00 for all three.

          I have a HDTV that is 16:9, one Laptop that is 16:9 and one that is almost
          16:9 that it operates like 16:9.

          My spare HTPC has a 4:3 CRT monitor.

          I first saw a problem with KNTV and started up MyHD to look at the aspect
          ratio and saw a blank screen for 11.1 and 11.2.

          I then used HDHomeRun' GUI to tune to RF 12 and saw on 11.2 that "COZI" and
          "CA-NS" were alternating.

          Then the 11.2 stream PSIP disappeared but using MyHD I saw that the stream
          was still there.

          Then "COZI" appeared and has remained.

          --------------------------------------------

          When the Postage Stamp for COZI SD programs was reported I looked at 11.2
          using all four tuner types I have (7 ATSC tuners in my HTPC, one more in my
          HDTV).

          Only Fusion showed the Postage Stamp for SD programs, both live tuned to
          11.2 and playing back a .tp capture file.

          The other OTA report is here, Chuck is ~ 115 miles East of Bruno and has Mt.
          Diablo in the way.

          http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22934796

          --------------------------------------------

          I use TSReader Lite to look at the PSIP and my next task will be to
          reinstall VideoReDo and some very old MPEG2 software to look at the SH .tp
          file I am saving.

          VLC Media player displays a little more about the MPEG2 file but not what I
          want to see.

          I had a Laptop failure a few weeks age and the motherboard needed to be
          replaced in Mexico. Putting the software back will take some time.

          SHF

          P.S. You and most other viewers may never see the PS problem, reports that
          everything is good are of little value, reports of seeing the problem pure
          Gold.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
          To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
          continues.


          > You duplicated with what equipment? I'm going on a rant
          > http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ODQ11b0_roU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DODQ11b0_roU
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          >
          > From: Stephen H. Fischer
          > Sent: 22 Feb 2013 06:26:09 GMT
          > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
          > continues.
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > It was interesting that I was able to duplicate the problem with 11.2 and
          > did not realize that he was on Comcast at the time.
          >
          > AVS added one more tuner type that displayed the problem. Three is a very
          > small number, one Comcast and two OTA.
          >
          > Having three types of Fusion tuners and both 16:9 and 4:3 displays has
          > helped me a lot.
          >
          > But it goes back to my seeing "COZI" and "CA-NS" alternating as the 11.2
          > stream ID, then both disappearing. That was using HDHomerun's live
          > display.
          > I was able to check that the stream was still there because another tuner
          > remembered 11.2. That tuner showed a blank stream initially at that time
          > for
          > 11.1 and 11.2.
          >
          > I really still do not have a good handle on what is wrong and have thrown
          > several ideas out that have been wrong. I do that a lot, build a model to
          > explain how things works and when more information comes in change the
          > model
          > or throw it away. I now want to extract the MPEG2 and look at it,
          > reinstall
          > some $$ software to see what it says. Maybe find some very old software I
          > have not used in ten years.
          >
          > AVS and this mailing list are separate, both need to be read to understand
          > all the input on this problem.
          >
          > Yes, I thought the OP was a flake based on previous posts, but once the
          > problem was duplicated it became a problem to understand and help with.
          >
          > I now have gone nationwide asking for help on AVS, but perhaps in the
          > wrong
          > thread.
          >
          > SHF
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
          > To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:59 PM
          > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
          > continues.
          >
          >
          >>I like hearing about Comcraps problems here. But I don't like the
          >>complaints from individuals that assume OTA broadcasts are the same.
          >>Proper
          >>full disclosure from you now on as to what equipment you are using and
          >>under what conditions you are experiencing your problems, hey RAT?
          >>Sometimes putting the beer can down before posting might help..keep
          >>posting
          >>as I enjoy it. I mean no malice.
          >>
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >>
          >> From: Duke And Rat
          >> Sent: 22 Feb 2013 03:07:53 GMT
          >> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
          >> continues.
          >>
          >> I'm thinking, that like the movie they showed with 45 MINUTES OF NO
          >> SOUND,
          >> the whole package was put together months and months ago by some NBC
          >> bigwig who knew not too much about technical skills. So, EVEN IF THEY DO
          >> ACTUALLY READ YOUR E-MAIL, it would take months, if not years to correct,
          >> as it's not helping Comcast's stock market rating.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> BD
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:23 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
          >>
          >>> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22995588
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> I have done a bunch of testing and I think I know what is wrong with
          >>> Cozi.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" (1956) is a 4:3 program which must
          >>> be
          >>> upconverted to 16:9. This has been done correctly.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Once the up conversion process has been done it is a 16:9 program and
          >>> must
          >>> be labeled and treated as 16:9.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Somewhere in the PSIP or the MPEG2 file itself there must be a place
          >>> where
          >>> the aspect ratio is to be placed but it is blank or invalid.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> On my newly repaired Vista Laptop (Remember always to use the correct
          >>> glue
          >>> when installing your GPU! Or lose $475, thanks NVIDIA) I was able to see
          >>> that there are two black bands on each side.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> The outermost band is BLACK and the innermost band is black with SNOW.
          >>> The
          >>> inner black SNOW band was added by the up conversion process. The outer
          >>> BLACK band is added by the Fusion software when it thinks it is
          >>> displaying a
          >>> 4:3 picture on a 16:9 device.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> As most tuners and display programs like VLC Media Player assume 16:9
          >>> the
          >>> BLACK band is not added and there is no problem.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> Fusion assumed 4:3 and adds the BLACK band when displaying on a 16:9
          >>> device.
          >>> It did not on my spare HTPC which has a 4:3 CPU display.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> If you see the postage stamp aspect ratio, look closely and I expect you
          >>> will see the two differing bands.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> I have sent a message to Cozi but I do not expect an answer.
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> SHF
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ------------------------------------
          >>>
          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Stephen H. Fischer
          Hi, Duke And Rat , do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so please make it available. Does your HDTV have a menus of Aspect Ratio s? Fusion
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 23, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi,

            "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
            please make it available.

            Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?

            Fusion has
            "Stretched",
            "Original Ratio",
            "16:9 Fixed",
            "4:3 Fixed",
            "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
            "16:10 Fixed".

            "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
            display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
            streams I receive and has been used in all testing.

            Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
            "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
            Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
            http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123

            I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum, P.I"
            on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.

            I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
            other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
            and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.

            4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.

            So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.

            SHF
          • bill weber
            Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go through 1000
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
              It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why I asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200 digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld through the jetsam.

              -----Original Message-----

              From: Stephen H. Fischer
              Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
              To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

              Hi,

              "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
              please make it available.

              Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?

              Fusion has
              "Stretched",
              "Original Ratio",
              "16:9 Fixed",
              "4:3 Fixed",
              "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
              "16:10 Fixed".

              "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
              display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
              streams I receive and has been used in all testing.

              Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
              "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
              Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
              http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123

              I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum, P.I"
              on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.

              I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
              other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
              and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.

              4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.

              So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.

              SHF





              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Stephen H. Fischer
              Hi, The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability. Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep reading you
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,

                The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability.

                Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep
                reading you can gain a lot of information on things you want to learn more
                about.

                I have 38 subscriptions and seldom post to any others.

                I have 12 that usually have posts and I see the same people on most of them.

                New persons should go to the end and read backward.

                On AVS there are people that are real experts that are subscribed like I am.

                Post are usually answered quickly.

                HDTV-in-SFbay has a few station engineers, one of which sometimes posts.

                Beyond those and Larry, HDTV-in-SFbay is a waste land IMHO.

                The COZI problem gets more interesting, I have found two more streams that
                are 704/480 (4:3).

                Same screen size and marked 4:3 instead of 16:9.

                > I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth responding
                > to

                Usually they are not, this one was. Now if he can just find the right button
                on the remote, he will be happy.

                SHF



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
                To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:41 PM
                Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                continues.


                > Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the
                > lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go
                > through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url
                > question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
                > It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one
                > machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why I
                > asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200
                > digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are
                > worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld
                > through the jetsam.
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                >
                > From: Stephen H. Fischer
                > Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
                > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                > continues.
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
                > please make it available.
                >
                > Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?
                >
                > Fusion has
                > "Stretched",
                > "Original Ratio",
                > "16:9 Fixed",
                > "4:3 Fixed",
                > "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
                > "16:10 Fixed".
                >
                > "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
                > display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
                > streams I receive and has been used in all testing.
                >
                > Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
                > "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
                > Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
                > http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123
                >
                > I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum,
                > P.I"
                > on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.
                >
                > I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
                > other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
                > and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.
                >
                > 4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.
                >
                > So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.
                >
                > SHF
                >
              • Don Hackler
                There are actually a few local TV station engineers who read and post here on the HDTV-in-SFBay yahoo group, but most of them won t actually claim it because
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  There are actually a few local TV station engineers who read and post
                  here on the HDTV-in-SFBay
                  yahoo group, but most of them won't actually claim it because they just
                  don't need the grief of
                  dealing with the problem children. We have enough of those to deal with
                  at work.

                  A couple of the more active guys retired, so you don't see them anymore.

                  I certainly don't have time to deal with AVS.
                  - Don



                  On 2/25/2013 1:35 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability.
                  >
                  > Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep
                  > reading you can gain a lot of information on things you want to learn more
                  > about.
                  >
                  > I have 38 subscriptions and seldom post to any others.
                  >
                  > I have 12 that usually have posts and I see the same people on most of them.
                  >
                  > New persons should go to the end and read backward.
                  >
                  > On AVS there are people that are real experts that are subscribed like I am.
                  >
                  > Post are usually answered quickly.
                  >
                  > HDTV-in-SFbay has a few station engineers, one of which sometimes posts.
                  >
                  > Beyond those and Larry, HDTV-in-SFbay is a waste land IMHO.
                  >
                  > The COZI problem gets more interesting, I have found two more streams that
                  > are 704/480 (4:3).
                  >
                  > Same screen size and marked 4:3 instead of 16:9.
                  >
                  >> I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth responding
                  >> to
                  > Usually they are not, this one was. Now if he can just find the right button
                  > on the remote, he will be happy.
                  >
                  > SHF
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
                  > To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:41 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                  > continues.
                  >
                  >
                  >> Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the
                  >> lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go
                  >> through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url
                  >> question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
                  >> It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one
                  >> machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why I
                  >> asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200
                  >> digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are
                  >> worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld
                  >> through the jetsam.
                  >>
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >>
                  >> From: Stephen H. Fischer
                  >> Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
                  >> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                  >> continues.
                  >>
                  >> Hi,
                  >>
                  >> "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
                  >> please make it available.
                  >>
                  >> Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?
                  >>
                  >> Fusion has
                  >> "Stretched",
                  >> "Original Ratio",
                  >> "16:9 Fixed",
                  >> "4:3 Fixed",
                  >> "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
                  >> "16:10 Fixed".
                  >>
                  >> "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
                  >> display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
                  >> streams I receive and has been used in all testing.
                  >>
                  >> Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
                  >> "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
                  >> Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
                  >> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123
                  >>
                  >> I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum,
                  >> P.I"
                  >> on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.
                  >>
                  >> I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
                  >> other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
                  >> and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.
                  >>
                  >> 4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.
                  >>
                  >> So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.
                  >>
                  >> SHF
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Stephen H. Fischer
                  Hi, Yes, I sometimes post on HDTV-in-SFBay hoping that if some thing IS ACTUALLY WRONG, the right people may get a message. But not always. When one station
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,

                    Yes, I sometimes post on HDTV-in-SFBay hoping that if some thing IS ACTUALLY
                    WRONG, the right people may get a message.

                    But not always.

                    When one station was literally turning off another stations transmitter it
                    took one of my posts to an obscure thread to have someone go into the FCC
                    records, find the person's (Station Engineer) phone number and call him to
                    alert him to the problem.

                    The COZI problem has turned out very strange. 704x480 is stated in the MPEG
                    file as 16:9 and other stations say 704x480 is 4:3.

                    Both are wrong! See the math at the end.

                    How long will COZI last with this odd screen size. That brings up the
                    question why are at least two other of the 105 streams I receive using this
                    odd screen size. Maybe I should have read the ATSC document that I
                    downloaded years ago but did not.

                    It took a lot of work on my part to get to that answer, I was hoping for
                    some help along the way.

                    Thanks for the posts you have made and will make.

                    SHF

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Don Hackler" <donh@...>
                    To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 4:04 PM
                    Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                    continues.


                    > There are actually a few local TV station engineers who read and post
                    > here on the HDTV-in-SFBay
                    > yahoo group, but most of them won't actually claim it because they just
                    > don't need the grief of
                    > dealing with the problem children. We have enough of those to deal with
                    > at work.
                    >
                    > A couple of the more active guys retired, so you don't see them anymore.
                    >
                    > I certainly don't have time to deal with AVS.
                    > - Don
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 2/25/2013 1:35 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                    >> Hi,
                    >>
                    >> The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability.
                    >>
                    >> Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep
                    >> reading you can gain a lot of information on things you want to learn
                    >> more
                    >> about.
                    >>
                    >> I have 38 subscriptions and seldom post to any others.
                    >>
                    >> I have 12 that usually have posts and I see the same people on most of
                    >> them.
                    >>
                    >> New persons should go to the end and read backward.
                    >>
                    >> On AVS there are people that are real experts that are subscribed like I
                    >> am.
                    >>
                    >> Post are usually answered quickly.
                    >>
                    >> HDTV-in-SFbay has a few station engineers, one of which sometimes posts.
                    >>
                    >> Beyond those and Larry, HDTV-in-SFbay is a waste land IMHO.
                    >>
                    >> The COZI problem gets more interesting, I have found two more streams
                    >> that
                    >> are 704/480 (4:3).
                    >>
                    >> Same screen size and marked 4:3 instead of 16:9.
                    >>
                    >>> I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth
                    >>> responding
                    >>> to
                    >> Usually they are not, this one was. Now if he can just find the right
                    >> button
                    >> on the remote, he will be happy.
                    >>
                    >> SHF
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
                    >> To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:41 PM
                    >> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                    >> continues.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is
                    >>> the
                    >>> lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go
                    >>> through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url
                    >>> question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
                    >>> It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one
                    >>> machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why
                    >>> I
                    >>> asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200
                    >>> digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are
                    >>> worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld
                    >>> through the jetsam.
                    >>>
                    >>> -----Original Message-----
                    >>>
                    >>> From: Stephen H. Fischer
                    >>> Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
                    >>> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                    >>> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                    >>> continues.
                    >>>
                    >>> Hi,
                    >>>
                    >>> "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If
                    >>> so
                    >>> please make it available.
                    >>>
                    >>> Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?
                    >>>
                    >>> Fusion has
                    >>> "Stretched",
                    >>> "Original Ratio",
                    >>> "16:9 Fixed",
                    >>> "4:3 Fixed",
                    >>> "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
                    >>> "16:10 Fixed".
                    >>>
                    >>> "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
                    >>> display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
                    >>> streams I receive and has been used in all testing.
                    >>>
                    >>> Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
                    >>> "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony
                    >>> calls
                    >>> Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
                    >>> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123
                    >>>
                    >>> I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum,
                    >>> P.I"
                    >>> on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.
                    >>>
                    >>> I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and
                    >>> the
                    >>> other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2
                    >>> file
                    >>> and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.
                    >>>
                    >>> 4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.
                    >>>
                    >>> So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.
                    >>>
                    >>> SHF
                  • Ron Economos
                    The aspect ratio sent in the MPEG-2 video stream is the aspect ratio of the intended display, not the aspect ratio of the pixels. I said it a month ago and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The aspect ratio sent in the MPEG-2 video stream is the
                      aspect ratio of the intended display, not the aspect ratio
                      of the pixels.

                      I said it a month ago and I'll say it again, there is nothing
                      wrong with the Cozi signal sent by KNTV. In fact, sending
                      16:9 is a wonderful feature of Cozi. You get to see 16:9
                      movies (such as "The Producers" last weekend) without
                      letterbox bars.

                      However, this time I'll indicate my credentials. I'm a
                      semi-retired engineer in the video compression industry
                      since 1993 (20 years). My last high profile project was
                      the Motorola DSR-6100 IRD/Transcoder that it used
                      by every cable head-end in the country to convert ESPN's
                      MPEG-4 satellite feed to MPEG-2 for distribution. Before
                      that, I developed the MPEG-2 encoder for analog channels
                      in the Motorola DCT-6412 DVR.

                      But it's super annoying to have to state credentials for
                      folks believe what you post. It makes me (and others
                      as Don Hackler suggests) not want to participate.

                      Ron

                      On 2/25/2013 4:31 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                       

                      Hi,

                      Yes, I sometimes post on HDTV-in-SFBay hoping that if some thing IS ACTUALLY
                      WRONG, the right people may get a message.

                      But not always.

                      When one station was literally turning off another stations transmitter it
                      took one of my posts to an obscure thread to have someone go into the FCC
                      records, find the person's (Station Engineer) phone number and call him to
                      alert him to the problem.

                      The COZI problem has turned out very strange. 704x480 is stated in the MPEG
                      file as 16:9 and other stations say 704x480 is 4:3.

                      Both are wrong! See the math at the end.

                      How long will COZI last with this odd screen size. That brings up the
                      question why are at least two other of the 105 streams I receive using this
                      odd screen size. Maybe I should have read the ATSC document that I
                      downloaded years ago but did not.

                      It took a lot of work on my part to get to that answer, I was hoping for
                      some help along the way.

                      Thanks for the posts you have made and will make.

                      SHF


                    • Stephen H. Fischer
                      Hi, I am not complaining about a picture that fills my 16:9 display, in fact I am very glad and wish more streams were sent this way. A lot of my DTV viewing
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        

                        Hi,

                        I am not complaining about a picture that fills my 16:9 display, in fact I am very glad and wish more streams were sent this way.

                        A lot of my DTV viewing is done using VLC Media Player that allows me to crop the 16:9 picture sent as SD to fill the entire 16:9 screen.

                        I just may have discovered another switch in VLC Media Player to allow 16:9 pictures letterboxed and pilloried and sent as 16:9 to allow the 16:9 program to fill my 16:9 screen. Something that I have wished I could do for a long time. I just have not captured a program lately sent this horrible way.

                        Of the four tuner types I have, only the type that has defective software and aborted when KKPX (ION) sent bad PSIP a while ago showed the Postage Stamp picture problem. It has a switch to fix the problem.

                        The second report OTA has a switch to correct the Postage Stamp problem.

                        It just remains for "Duke and Rat" to report that their tuner also has a switch to fix the Postage Stamp problem. It is a very small number of tuners that do the wrong thing, just "Duke and Rat"'s bad luck to have one.

                        As I said, I did not read the ATSC

                        document when I downloaded it years ago.

                        Today, If I remember correctly, you must pay the cost of printing the document starting with buying the land to grow the trees on for the paper, the cost of bricks used in building the pulp mill, the cost of obtaining the ink, the cost of the building the press is in, the cost of mining the ore for the printing press ... and so on.

                        If it is a free download, please provide a link and perhaps I will skim it for the answer.

                        Sorry but I did not understand your previous post if it was the one with pictures, I am not one of the people that learns everything from youTube.

                        I needed to use my calculator to do 4/3, 704/480 and 16/9 to understand.

                        I do not know where my slide rule is so I could not use it.

                        Pictures, no help, simply showing "4/3, 704/480 and 16/9" would have done the trick.

                        SHF

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 5:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

                        The aspect ratio sent in the MPEG-2 video stream is the
                        aspect ratio of the intended display,
                      • Ron Economos
                        All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the main specification. http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default A/54A is
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the
                          main specification.

                          http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default

                          A/54A is also useful.

                          http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/recommended-practices

                          However, the MPEG-2 specification is more useful in regards to
                          aspect ratio. You can download an older version here which is
                          entirely adequate for aspect ratio research.

                          http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.262-199507-S/en

                          For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel
                          formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.
                          The use of pictures was an attempt to make it easier
                          ("seeing is believing"), but it's difficult to know what's
                          going to help for everyone.

                          Ron

                          On 2/25/2013 6:37 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                           

                          

                          Hi,

                          I am not complaining about a picture that fills my 16:9 display, in fact I am very glad and wish more streams were sent this way.

                          A lot of my DTV viewing is done using VLC Media Player that allows me to crop the 16:9 picture sent as SD to fill the entire 16:9 screen.

                          I just may have discovered another switch in VLC Media Player to allow 16:9 pictures letterboxed and pilloried and sent as 16:9 to allow the 16:9 program to fill my 16:9 screen. Something that I have wished I could do for a long time. I just have not captured a program lately sent this horrible way.

                          Of the four tuner types I have, only the type that has defective software and aborted when KKPX (ION) sent bad PSIP a while ago showed the Postage Stamp picture problem. It has a switch to fix the problem.

                          The second report OTA has a switch to correct the Postage Stamp problem.

                          It just remains for "Duke and Rat" to report that their tuner also has a switch to fix the Postage Stamp problem. It is a very small number of tuners that do the wrong thing, just "Duke and Rat"'s bad luck to have one.

                          As I said, I did not read the ATSC document when I downloaded it years ago.

                          Today, If I remember correctly, you must pay the cost of printing the document starting with buying the land to grow the trees on for the paper, the cost of bricks used in building the pulp mill, the cost of obtaining the ink, the cost of the building the press is in, the cost of mining the ore for the printing press ... and so on.

                          If it is a free download, please provide a link and perhaps I will skim it for the answer.

                          Sorry but I did not understand your previous post if it was the one with pictures, I am not one of the people that learns everything from youTube.

                          I needed to use my calculator to do 4/3, 704/480 and 16/9 to understand.

                          I do not know where my slide rule is so I could not use it.

                          Pictures, no help, simply showing "4/3, 704/480 and 16/9" would have done the trick.

                          SHF

                        • Duke And Rat
                          For the record, I am a retired radio engineer. I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio. Therefore, when most people watch
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 25, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.

                            I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.

                            Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio. Unfortunately, people like me and Ron Estes, who was the audio engineer when Carson was hosting the show, both held our fingers over our ears at what the show had become. A few years ago before he died. "Duke," Ron wrote me once, "TV is a vast wasteland of bad audio." Mostly, he was referring to Leno's audio, which is about as good as an AT&T dial up phone.

                            Neither of us knew or know anything about what you guys do. I suppose you could call us dirt. The low man on the totem pole.

                            But back when we were working, there were real human beings, that would respond to problems. You could actually talk to an engineer in charge. Now there's computers that don't even realize that they're airing a movie without sound. And they apparently can do so for 45 minutes and not know it. And they also apparently can mess us the aspect ratio. And industry executives raking in millions.

                            But all in all, I would appreciate a little more respect from everybody here.



                            To answer your question, there are no settings. This is apparently another comcast problem.








                            BD


                            On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:35 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > The AVS long threads are a problem along with IMHO poor search ability.
                            >
                            > Still, if you are subscribed to the threads you want to watch and keep
                            > reading you can gain a lot of information on things you want to learn more
                            > about.
                            >
                            > I have 38 subscriptions and seldom post to any others.
                            >
                            > I have 12 that usually have posts and I see the same people on most of them.
                            >
                            > New persons should go to the end and read backward.
                            >
                            > On AVS there are people that are real experts that are subscribed like I am.
                            >
                            > Post are usually answered quickly.
                            >
                            > HDTV-in-SFbay has a few station engineers, one of which sometimes posts.
                            >
                            > Beyond those and Larry, HDTV-in-SFbay is a waste land IMHO.
                            >
                            > The COZI problem gets more interesting, I have found two more streams that
                            > are 704/480 (4:3).
                            >
                            > Same screen size and marked 4:3 instead of 16:9.
                            >
                            >> I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are worth responding
                            >> to
                            >
                            > Usually they are not, this one was. Now if he can just find the right button
                            > on the remote, he will be happy.
                            >
                            > SHF
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "bill weber" <bweber2k@...>
                            > To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 11:41 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                            > continues.
                            >
                            >
                            >> Thank you for the additional info. The problem with the avi forums is the
                            >> lack of moderation to send threads to archive. This leaves newbie to go
                            >> through 1000 long threads. All newbies don't know to type "site url
                            >> question" On sites like calguns this is passed on numerous times.
                            >> It the meantime, I have two diamond ati 650 reference cards in one
                            >> machine. Only to find most users just want plug an play. And that is why I
                            >> asked for machines in a sig or the body of the message. I have a LG 4200
                            >> digital tuner. I use it to determine if rants like duck&rat's posts are
                            >> worth responding to. I see now why we normal users are never hearld
                            >> through the jetsam.
                            >>
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >>
                            >> From: Stephen H. Fischer
                            >> Sent: 23 Feb 2013 22:40:01 GMT
                            >> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                            >> continues.
                            >>
                            >> Hi,
                            >>
                            >> "Duke And Rat", do you have a link to the user manual for your HDTV? If so
                            >> please make it available.
                            >>
                            >> Does your HDTV have a menus of "Aspect Ratio's?
                            >>
                            >> Fusion has
                            >> "Stretched",
                            >> "Original Ratio",
                            >> "16:9 Fixed",
                            >> "4:3 Fixed",
                            >> "4:3 Pan & Scan" and
                            >> "16:10 Fixed".
                            >>
                            >> "16:9 Fixed" produces a normal display of Sherlock Holmes on my 16:9
                            >> display. Original Ratio is what I normally use for all other of the 105
                            >> streams I receive and has been used in all testing.
                            >>
                            >> Chuck has reported that his Sony has an option that cures the PS problem
                            >> "I explored the screen settings in the menu and found an option Sony calls
                            >> Auto Full Screen. I turned it on and Cozi TV now displays properly."
                            >> http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9150#post_22939123
                            >>
                            >> I have done some testing with VideoReDo and will be looking at "Magnum,
                            >> P.I"
                            >> on Thursday which I remember was the program you first reported.
                            >>
                            >> I need to do some number crunching then but it appears that Fusion and the
                            >> other two tuners affected are ignoring the "16:9" stated in the MPEG2 file
                            >> and instead using 704/480 which is 1.4667.
                            >>
                            >> 4/3 = 1.3333 and 16/9 = 1.7778.
                            >>
                            >> So it may all be about the screen size in the MPEG2 file.
                            >>
                            >> SHF
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Stephen H. Fischer
                            ... From: Duke And Rat To: Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Duke And Rat" <dukenrat@...>
                              To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 11:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect
                              continues.
                              ...>
                              > To answer your question, there are no settings. This is apparently another
                              > comcast problem.
                              >

                              Sorry, you are the only person in a million army men marching in step that
                              is out of step.

                              It's a programming error in your tuner. The programmers that did the
                              software for displaying a MPEG2 file did not understand that "when the MPEG
                              says it's to be treated as 16:9, it MUST be treated as 16:9"!

                              The Fusion programmers made the mistake of not obeying the "ORDER", Chuck's
                              tuner made the mistake and yours also.

                              There may be other tuners where this mistake has been made, my other three
                              tuners have no problem. The overwhelming number of other tuners in the world
                              have NOT made this mistake.


                              It cannot be a Comcast problem because I am OTA only and the last time I had
                              Cable was well over thirty years ago.


                              You have lost this one clearly, it is time for you to shut up.

                              SHF
                            • Don Hackler
                              ... I m both a radio engineer and a TV engineer. In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU meter is moving, the audio is considered
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                                > For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                                >
                                > I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                                >
                                > Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.

                                I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.

                                In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                                meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                                are often not even turned up.

                                That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                              • Duke And Rat
                                Thank you for being civil. I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thank you for being civil.

                                  I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.



                                  BD




                                  On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:

                                  > On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                                  >> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                                  >>
                                  >> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                                  >>
                                  >> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
                                  >
                                  > I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
                                  >
                                  > In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                                  > meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                                  > are often not even turned up.
                                  >
                                  > That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Don Hackler
                                  That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.

                                    On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Duke And Rat <dukenrat@...> wrote:

                                    > Thank you for being civil.
                                    >
                                    > I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > BD
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                                    >>> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                                    >>>
                                    >>> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
                                    >>
                                    >> I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
                                    >>
                                    >> In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                                    >> meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                                    >> are often not even turned up.
                                    >>
                                    >> That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> ------------------------------------
                                    >>
                                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Duke And Rat
                                    Well, I use a homemade amp and speakers. It goes boom-boom and tweet-tweet. My engineer friend says the cardboard enclosure(?) from his station cut off all the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 26, 2013
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                                      Well, I use a homemade amp and speakers. It goes boom-boom and tweet-tweet.

                                      My engineer friend says the cardboard enclosure(?) from his station cut off all the lows, and the midrange was squishy.

                                      But if you really wanna talk about bad audio ... how about those table top metal TV's from the early 60's? They had a 3-4" speaker that acted more like a tweeter than a midrange, and if actually managed to find any bass, it would jar a tube in the IF strip or Horizontal Osc and make the picture vibrate with the sound.

                                      I hated those things!





                                      BD




                                      On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:27 PM, Don Hackler wrote:

                                      > That was probably a better sound system than most of the the TV sets on the market.
                                      >
                                      > On Feb 26, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Duke And Rat <dukenrat@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Thank you for being civil.
                                      >>
                                      >> I have a engineer friend at a NETWORK station in the central valley. He says their audio monitor (as of last year, when he was hired) consisted of a 60's era radio shack stereo amp with germanium transistors, and ONE 8" radio shack speaker in the original cardboard box, with holes punched in the cardboard for the audio to come out, connected to the left channel.
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> BD
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Don Hackler wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> On 2/25/2013 11:30 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
                                      >>>> For the record, I am a retired radio engineer.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> I have been cursed with an ear that automatically locates defects in audio.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Therefore, when most people watch ... say, the Tonight Show with Leno ... if they hear the mouth move, they conclude there is nothing wrong with the audio.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I'm both a radio engineer and a TV engineer.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> In most TV control rooms these days, as long as the LED bar graph VU
                                      >>> meter is moving, the audio is considered working. The audio monitors
                                      >>> are often not even turned up.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> That's assuming there's even anybody in the control room at all.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Stephen H. Fischer
                                      Hi, I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much. Thanks. I am wondering if this guess is ~
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                        Hi,

                                        I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much.

                                        Thanks.

                                        I am wondering if this guess is ~ correct,

                                        That the pixel shapes for the following resolutions is about the same:

                                        1920x1080 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                        1280x720 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                        704x480 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                        704x480 (4:3 program on 4:3 display)

                                        > For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel

                                        > formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.

                                        I think I am in that class, but then "string theory" is just as far beyond me.

                                        You do say non square, does that mean that the first two are square?

                                        I do have an idea of the "big bang" down very hot.

                                        Looking at your pictures I think that they were not helpful to me was because they did not show the additional black bands I am seeing.

                                        I was looking at a screen that is fixed in size with an additional black band and your pictures were wider than each other with out the additional black band.

                                        The document parts I scanned clearly show 704x480 in places. So that was not just stations guessing at a V and H.

                                        Finding two streams marked 704x480 (4:3) in addition to COZI's 704x480 (16:9) was a surprise.

                                        ------------------------------

                                        I now have a Magnum, P.I. Which the OP first complained about.

                                        It looks exactly like Sherlock Holmes does on Fusion with original ratio selected, an additional BLACK band on both sides. Selecting 16:9 Fixed produces a normal picture. MyHD and VLC Media Player also show a normal picture.

                                        So this problem is understood, an programming error in the tuner!

                                        SHF

                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message ----- 
                                        Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:22 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

                                        All the ATSC specifications are free to download. A/53 is the
                                        main specification.

                                        http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/standards?layout=default

                                        A/54A is also useful.

                                        http://www.atsc.org/cms/index.php/standards/recommended-practices

                                        However, the MPEG-2 specification is more useful in regards to
                                        aspect ratio. You can download an older version here which is
                                        entirely adequate for aspect ratio research.

                                        http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.262-199507-S/en

                                        For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel
                                        formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.
                                        The use of pictures was an attempt to make it easier
                                        ("seeing is believing"), but it's difficult to know what's
                                        going to help for everyone.

                                        Ron

                                      • Ron Economos
                                        The pixel (sample) aspect ratio can be calculated like this (from section 6.3.3 of the MPEG-2 specification I linked to): sample aspect ratio = display aspect
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 1, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The pixel (sample) aspect ratio can be calculated like this (from
                                          section 6.3.3 of the MPEG-2 specification I linked to):

                                          sample aspect ratio = display aspect ratio * horizontal size / vertical size

                                          So for 1920x1080 at 16:9 it would be:

                                          (9/16) * (1920/1080) = 1 (square pixels)

                                          For 704x480 at 16:9 it would be:

                                          (9/16) * (704/480) = 0.825 (non-square pixels).

                                          The typical way to test aspect ratios is to use a test pattern
                                          with circles. Any distortion can be easily seen. Here's a
                                          few bitstreams I created with a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.

                                          1) 720x480 at 16:9, just like Cozi is sending except 720 wide instead of 704

                                          http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9.ts

                                          2) 544x480 at 16:9, just to see how the decoder handles it. 544 wide is a
                                          valid MPEG-2 resolution.

                                          http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9_544.ts

                                          3) 720x480 at 4:3 with a display extension for 16:9. Again, just to see
                                          how the decoder handles it. A compliant decoder should display a
                                          16:9 image even though the aspect ratio is signaled as 4:3. Most
                                          (but not all) versions of VLC will do the correct thing.

                                          http://www.w6rz.net/aspect16x9_ext.ts

                                          All clips are about a minute long and about 144 Megabytes. Audio
                                          is silent. Have fun!

                                          Ron

                                          On 2/28/2013 10:00 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
                                           

                                          Hi,

                                          I was able to download the documents. There is not sufficient time remaining in my life to understand much.

                                          Thanks.

                                          I am wondering if this guess is ~ correct,

                                          That the pixel shapes for the following resolutions is about the same:

                                          1920x1080 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                          1280x720 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                          704x480 (16:9 program on 16:9 display)

                                          704x480 (4:3 program on 4:3 display)

                                          > For some reason, the aspect ratio of non-square pixel

                                          > formats like 704x480 is very difficult for folks to understand.

                                          I think I am in that class, but then "string theory" is just as far beyond me.

                                          You do say non square, does that mean that the first two are square?

                                          I do have an idea of the "big bang" down very hot.

                                          Looking at your pictures I think that they were not helpful to me was because they did not show the additional black bands I am seeing.

                                          I was looking at a screen that is fixed in size with an additional black band and your pictures were wider than each other with out the additional black band.

                                          The document parts I scanned clearly show 704x480 in places. So that was not just stations guessing at a V and H.

                                          Finding two streams marked 704x480 (4:3) in addition to COZI's 704x480 (16:9) was a surprise.

                                          ------------------------------

                                          I now have a Magnum, P.I. Which the OP first complained about.

                                          It looks exactly like Sherlock Holmes does on Fusion with original ratio selected, an additional BLACK band on both sides. Selecting 16:9 Fixed produces a normal picture. MyHD and VLC Media Player also show a normal picture.

                                          So this problem is understood, an programming error in the tuner!

                                          SHF

                                        • Stephen H. Fischer
                                          Hi, Fusion with 16:9 Fixed showed all three clips at full width on my 16:9 screen When I switched to Original Ratio 3) had the BLACK bands added to each
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 1, 2013
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                                            Hi,
                                             
                                            Fusion with "16:9 Fixed" showed all three clips at full width on my 16:9 screen
                                             
                                            When I switched to "Original Ratio" 3) had the BLACK bands added to each side and the circles were not round.
                                             
                                            My new 6 - Million Dollar Man Eyes could not really tell any difference with "16:9 Fixed" between the three.
                                             
                                            If you have a FTP for uploads, send me a PM with password, I captured an interesting KGO test pattern long ago. (3/6/2006) It's 39 MB in size.
                                             

                                            mailto:a_nani_mouse@...

                                            SHF
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 4:49 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Cozi Sherlock Holmes Postage Stamp aspect continues.

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