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Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

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  • Duke And Rat
    Well, to put this in perspective: Way back in 89, I noted that the Comcast feed of KICU-36 had distorted audio. Not knowing if it was Comcast or 36, I called
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 2, 2013
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      Well, to put this in perspective:

      Way back in '89, I noted that the Comcast feed of KICU-36 had distorted audio. Not knowing if it was Comcast or 36, I called 36 and got a real engineer. She talked to me and verified that it was Comcast's fault. She then offered to call Russian River Comcast, and managed to straighten the thing out, after normal hours, where people like me could do nothing. 

      In the case of KNTV 11.2, we've been discussing their weird aspect ratios and other engineering messes for weeks. I wrote several e-mails to KNTV and Cozi, to no avail. That is probably because there is no engineer, only a computer geek who knows nothing.



      BD



      On Feb 1, 2013, at 5:35 AM, Ron Economos wrote:



      As far as I can tell, KNTV is sending the proper aspect ratio,
      at least through Comcast in Mountain View. 704x480 at 16:9
      is definitely part of the ATSC specification and my Comcast
      STB and TV are not having any trouble displaying the correct
      image.

      Unfortunately, I can't capture OTA signals anymore. If someone
      could provide an OTA KNTV bitstream for me, I can verify
      if there are any PSIP problems.

      If the PSIP checks out, then we have to blame it on buggy
      decoders. However, if BD is using a Comcast STB, then
      there might be some funny business in Santa Rosa.

      Ron

      On 2/1/2013 12:05 AM, Larry Kenney wrote:

      My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.


      Larry
      SF

      - - -

      On Jan 31, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Ron Economos wrote:

      Here's some frames decoded from the Cozi bitstream
      captured from Comcast in Mountain View channel 186.

      Original 704x480 frame of 4:3 content.

      <cozi546.jpg>

      Same image scaled to 16:9 (as indicated by the aspect ratio in the stream).

      <cozi54616x9.jpg>

      original  704x480 frame of 16:9 content

      <cozi1590.jpg>

      Same image scaled to 16:9.

      <cozi159016x9.jpg>

      Works fine here with a Motorola DCH-3200 cable STB and 16:9 TV.

      Ron

      On 1/31/2013 9:40 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
       

      Hi,

      Are there COZI programs that were shot in 16:9 that are sent full screen in 
      16:9?

      When I was checking KNTV I appeared to catch some. Perhaps that setting is 
      remembered.

      At 9:22 PM 1/31/2013 Magnum, P.I.
      Has black bars right and left just like 4:3 should be on my HDTV with a 
      rotten tuner.

      Perhaps you have made a setting like I did for DVD playback, 4:3 programs 
      are stretched horizontally to fill the screen.

      Checking Fusion, Magnum, P.I. is too narrow. But after a commercial that was 
      correct Magnum, P.I. is now correct.
      If I close Fusion and restart it sometimes I get the correct result, 
      sometimes too narrow.

      HDHomerun to VLC Media player appears to be correct.

      I cannot check the PSIP right now, I will try later perhaps.

      They messed up their PSIP a few days ago, perhaps it still is not correct.

      http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22893074

      SHF






    • Stephen H. Fischer
      Hi, http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507 I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 6, 2013
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        Hi,

        http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507

        I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown 704x480i (16:9) using MyHD to look at the PSIP live.

        Many of the programs I remember coming from an age when everything was 4:3 but the programs fill the 16:9 screen, "I Spy" current on being an exception.

        The programs must be zoomed or stretched.

        The reported postage stamp sized programs thus may have been caused by the preprocessing of 4:3 material to be broadcast in 16:9, but the process being done twice resulting in the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides. NOT!

        I had expected to see (4:3) at times which also could have produced the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides.

        My HDTV has the ability to put both the VGA (MyHD) and DVI (Fusion7 Dual) on the screen at the same time so, on the left is the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides displayed by Fusion and on the right the MyHD correct picture with just one set of black bars.

        -------------------------------------------

        I now see that the Fusion on screen controller is also too narrow clearly indicating that Fusion is remembering (4:3) when it should not.

        So, Fusion and "Duke and Rat" tuner code is defective, in the Fusion case this is known.

        SHF

        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:05 AM
        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

        My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.

        Larry
        SF
      • Duke And Rat
        So, you re saying the problem is our Comcast feed? Wouldn t that would sorta be unlikely, in that every other channel works perfectly? BD
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 6, 2013
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          So, you're saying the problem is our Comcast feed?

          Wouldn't that would sorta be unlikely, in that every other channel works perfectly?





          BD








          On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



          Hi,

          http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507

          I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown 704x480i (16:9) using MyHD to look at the PSIP live.

          Many of the programs I remember coming from an age when everything was 4:3 but the programs fill the 16:9 screen, "I Spy" current on being an exception.

          The programs must be zoomed or stretched.

          The reported postage stamp sized programs thus may have been caused by the preprocessing of 4:3 material to be broadcast in 16:9, but the process being done twice resulting in the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides. NOT!

          I had expected to see (4:3) at times which also could have produced the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides.

          My HDTV has the ability to put both the VGA (MyHD) and DVI (Fusion7 Dual) on the screen at the same time so, on the left is the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides displayed by Fusion and on the right the MyHD correct picture with just one set of black bars.

          -------------------------------------------

          I now see that the Fusion on screen controller is also too narrow clearly indicating that Fusion is remembering (4:3) when it should not.

          So, Fusion and "Duke and Rat" tuner code is defective, in the Fusion case this is known.

          SHF

          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:05 AM
          Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

          My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.

          Larry
          SF



        • Stephen H. Fischer
          Hi, What I am saying is that it is your tuner! It has a memory for what format 11.2 is in. One thing to try is a full re-scan Your tuner may be remembering
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 6, 2013
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            Hi,

            What I am saying is that it is your tuner! It has a memory for what format 11.2 is in.

            One thing to try is a full re-scan

            Your tuner may be remembering what was in the 11.2 PSIP from before. (CA-NS)

            Remember, I spotted COZI and CA-NS as the stream ID alternating which startled me. MyHD had blank screens which caused me to look at the HDHR live display.

            One possibility is that KNTV's PSIP was being generated in two different places, or was being generated incorrectly.

            Both COZI and CA-NS went away for a period and then COZI appeared.

            (11.2 disappeared for a period)

            I suspect that all my tuners need a full re-scan and may need full re-scans until the problem goes away.

            I am not sure KNTV has their PSIP right yet so I attached the TSReader output for KNTV to a AVS post.

            The understanding of the problem may not be seen in the PSIP because good and bad PSIP may be sent at almost the same time.

            One of each would need to captured, am almost impossible task.

            I need to do more testing tomorrow night or at some time that 4:3 material is being sent.

            I have discovered that Fusion still has CA-NS and can by tuning to other channels and back I can make the postage stamp picture appear and by tuning to a different channel and back to 11.2 disappear.

            A full re-scan may grab the correct PSIP, or the bad one . If you get a good one then stop.

            I may get different results as I have three Fusion tuners and depending on the OS, different drivers.

            http://www.avsforum.com/t/744292/new-fusionhdtv-software/1770#post_22828157

            PSIP is and has been a problem for several DTV stations, one station engineer had to be told on the phone before the worst problem was corrected. That station was literally turning another station off for some tuners.

            I do not have the software to really tell what is going on so I am guessing.

            SHF

            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:06 PM
            Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

            So, you're saying the problem is our Comcast feed?

            Wouldn't that would sorta be unlikely, in that every other channel works perfectly?





            BD








            On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



            Hi,

            http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507

            I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown 704x480i (16:9) using MyHD to look at the PSIP live.

            Many of the programs I remember coming from an age when everything was 4:3 but the programs fill the 16:9 screen, "I Spy" current on being an exception.

            The programs must be zoomed or stretched.

            The reported postage stamp sized programs thus may have been caused by the preprocessing of 4:3 material to be broadcast in 16:9, but the process being done twice resulting in the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides. NOT!

            I had expected to see (4:3) at times which also could have produced the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides.

            My HDTV has the ability to put both the VGA (MyHD) and DVI (Fusion7 Dual) on the screen at the same time so, on the left is the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides displayed by Fusion and on the right the MyHD correct picture with just one set of black bars.

            -------------------------------------------

            I now see that the Fusion on screen controller is also too narrow clearly indicating that Fusion is remembering (4:3) when it should not.

            So, Fusion and "Duke and Rat" tuner code is defective, in the Fusion case this is known.

            SHF

            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:05 AM
            Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

            My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.

            Larry
            SF



          • Duke And Rat
            I guarantee you it ain t my tuner! But it could be Comcast. I will call them tomorrow and lodge a complaint, but it is fun during a commercial break, watching
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 7, 2013
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              I guarantee you it ain't my tuner! But it could be Comcast.

              I will call them tomorrow and lodge a complaint, but it is fun during a commercial break, watching COZI switch from postage stamp to (I guess) 16:9, then (I guess) 4:3 and watching everybody look fat, and then back to a postage stamp when the movie re-starts.

              But here again, I've notified KNTV & COZI TWICE about this and told them it was viewed on Comcast Santa Rosa. Two weeks have passed. Think anybody's read their e-mail's yet?





              BD



               
              On Feb 6, 2013, at 11:53 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



              Hi,

              What I am saying is that it is your tuner! It has a memory for what format 11.2 is in.

              One thing to try is a full re-scan

              Your tuner may be remembering what was in the 11.2 PSIP from before. (CA-NS)

              Remember, I spotted COZI and CA-NS as the stream ID alternating which startled me. MyHD had blank screens which caused me to look at the HDHR live display.

              One possibility is that KNTV's PSIP was being generated in two different places, or was being generated incorrectly.

              Both COZI and CA-NS went away for a period and then COZI appeared. (11.2 disappeared for a period)

              I suspect that all my tuners need a full re-scan and may need full re-scans until the problem goes away.

              I am not sure KNTV has their PSIP right yet so I attached the TSReader output for KNTV to a AVS post.

              The understanding of the problem may not be seen in the PSIP because good and bad PSIP may be sent at almost the same time. One of each would need to captured, am almost impossible task.

              I need to do more testing tomorrow night or at some time that 4:3 material is being sent.

              I have discovered that Fusion still has CA-NS and can by tuning to other channels and back I can make the postage stamp picture appear and by tuning to a different channel and back to 11.2 disappear.

              A full re-scan may grab the correct PSIP, or the bad one . If you get a good one then stop.

              I may get different results as I have three Fusion tuners and depending on the OS, different drivers.

              http://www.avsforum.com/t/744292/new-fusionhdtv-software/1770#post_22828157

              PSIP is and has been a problem for several DTV stations, one station engineer had to be told on the phone before the worst problem was corrected. That station was literally turning another station off for some tuners.

              I do not have the software to really tell what is going on so I am guessing.

              SHF

              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:06 PM
              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

              So, you're saying the problem is our Comcast feed?

              Wouldn't that would sorta be unlikely, in that every other channel works perfectly?





              BD








              On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



              Hi,

              http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507

              I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown 704x480i (16:9) using MyHD to look at the PSIP live.

              Many of the programs I remember coming from an age when everything was 4:3 but the programs fill the 16:9 screen, "I Spy" current on being an exception.

              The programs must be zoomed or stretched.

              The reported postage stamp sized programs thus may have been caused by the preprocessing of 4:3 material to be broadcast in 16:9, but the process being done twice resulting in the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides. NOT!

              I had expected to see (4:3) at times which also could have produced the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides.

              My HDTV has the ability to put both the VGA (MyHD) and DVI (Fusion7 Dual) on the screen at the same time so, on the left is the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides displayed by Fusion and on the right the MyHD correct picture with just one set of black bars.

              -------------------------------------------

              I now see that the Fusion on screen controller is also too narrow clearly indicating that Fusion is remembering (4:3) when it should not.

              So, Fusion and "Duke and Rat" tuner code is defective, in the Fusion case this is known.

              SHF

              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

              My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.

              Larry
              SF






            • Stephen H. Fischer
              Hi, We have THREE (3) persons reporting problems with KNTV s COZI OTA on 11.2! The problem may not be at KNTV (San Jose) but in Los Angles or New York or
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 7, 2013
              • 0 Attachment

                Hi,

                We have THREE (3) persons reporting problems with KNTV's COZI OTA on 11.2!

                The problem may not be at KNTV (San Jose) but in Los Angles or New York or somewhere else.

                Getting the right person needed attention may be hard.

                If only a minuscule number of tuners have a problem it may be safely ignored by NBC even though it might be nationwide.

                Good luck in getting a problem seen by so very few tuners fixed.

                Three of my four tuners have no problem and the one that does, I do not use.

                So I myself can ignore it.

                I looked at the TSReader output and nothing jumped out as bad.

                SHF

                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 12:49 AM
                Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

                I guarantee you it ain't my tuner! But it could be Comcast.

                I will call them tomorrow and lodge a complaint, but it is fun during a commercial break, watching COZI switch from postage stamp to (I guess) 16:9, then (I guess) 4:3 and watching everybody look fat, and then back to a postage stamp when the movie re-starts.

                But here again, I've notified KNTV & COZI TWICE about this and told them it was viewed on Comcast Santa Rosa. Two weeks have passed. Think anybody's read their e-mail's yet?





                BD




                On Feb 6, 2013, at 11:53 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



                Hi,

                What I am saying is that it is your tuner! It has a memory for what format 11.2 is in.

                One thing to try is a full re-scan

                Your tuner may be remembering what was in the 11.2 PSIP from before. (CA-NS)

                Remember, I spotted COZI and CA-NS as the stream ID alternating which startled me. MyHD had blank screens which caused me to look at the HDHR live display.

                One possibility is that KNTV's PSIP was being generated in two different places, or was being generated incorrectly.

                Both COZI and CA-NS went away for a period and then COZI appeared. (11.2 disappeared for a period)

                I suspect that all my tuners need a full re-scan and may need full re-scans until the problem goes away.

                I am not sure KNTV has their PSIP right yet so I attached the TSReader output for KNTV to a AVS post.

                The understanding of the problem may not be seen in the PSIP because good and bad PSIP may be sent at almost the same time. One of each would need to captured, am almost impossible task.

                I need to do more testing tomorrow night or at some time that 4:3 material is being sent.

                I have discovered that Fusion still has CA-NS and can by tuning to other channels and back I can make the postage stamp picture appear and by tuning to a different channel and back to 11.2 disappear.

                A full re-scan may grab the correct PSIP, or the bad one . If you get a good one then stop.

                I may get different results as I have three Fusion tuners and depending on the OS, different drivers.

                http://www.avsforum.com/t/744292/new-fusionhdtv-software/1770#post_22828157

                PSIP is and has been a problem for several DTV stations, one station engineer had to be told on the phone before the worst problem was corrected. That station was literally turning another station off for some tuners.

                I do not have the software to really tell what is going on so I am guessing.

                SHF

                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:06 PM
                Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

                So, you're saying the problem is our Comcast feed?

                Wouldn't that would sorta be unlikely, in that every other channel works perfectly?





                BD








                On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:12 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:



                Hi,

                http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/9120#post_22933507

                I have been sampling COZI occasionally and have noted that they have always shown 704x480i (16:9) using MyHD to look at the PSIP live.

                Many of the programs I remember coming from an age when everything was 4:3 but the programs fill the 16:9 screen, "I Spy" current on being an exception.

                The programs must be zoomed or stretched.

                The reported postage stamp sized programs thus may have been caused by the preprocessing of 4:3 material to be broadcast in 16:9, but the process being done twice resulting in the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides. NOT!

                I had expected to see (4:3) at times which also could have produced the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides.

                My HDTV has the ability to put both the VGA (MyHD) and DVI (Fusion7 Dual) on the screen at the same time so, on the left is the too narrow picture with two sets of black bars at the sides displayed by Fusion and on the right the MyHD correct picture with just one set of black bars.

                -------------------------------------------

                I now see that the Fusion on screen controller is also too narrow clearly indicating that Fusion is remembering (4:3) when it should not.

                So, Fusion and "Duke and Rat" tuner code is defective, in the Fusion case this is known.

                SHF

                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 12:05 AM
                Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Postage Stamp Back

                My only questions would be "Shouldn't TV stations transmit the proper aspect ratio?"  "Why should the consumer have to adjust his TV?"  COZI is not the only one with aspect ratio problems.  Several stations have their picture set too narrow or too fat if you leave your set so that the signal sets the size of the picture.

                Larry
                SF






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