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Re: KGO Translator Channel 35

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  • le_deuce
    I ve been spot checking the last 3 days and the reception has been great on 35; now I know why. Great work! Hope they get it nailed for good. ..Brian
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 22, 2012
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      I've been spot checking the last 3 days and the reception has been great on 35; now I know why.
      Great work! Hope they get it nailed for good.
      ..Brian

      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
      >
      > I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
      >
      > He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
      >
      > The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
      >
      > They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
      >
      > Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO's first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
      >
      > One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
      >
      > They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
      >
      > Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
      >
    • Duke And Rat
      An event happened on KGO tonite that happens every now and then on all stations, and it makes us chuckle. Just as a scene changed in a commercial, it lost data
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 22, 2012
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        An event happened on KGO tonite that happens every now and then on all stations, and it makes us chuckle.

        Just as a scene changed in a commercial, it lost data and broke into pixels. In this case, it was a close-up of a woman. In this case it was a blood-red pixelated face, making her look like she was outta some monster movie.

        It only lasted a second, but it was enough to jar me.

        Didn't they make a science-fiction movie around this, where the media has been taken over by aliens, who normally look grotesque, but are using a computer enhanced image to make them look human?





        BD




        On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:26 PM, le_deuce wrote:

        > I've been spot checking the last 3 days and the reception has been great on 35; now I know why.
        > Great work! Hope they get it nailed for good.
        > ..Brian
        >
        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
        >>
        >> He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
        >>
        >> The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
        >>
        >> They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
        >>
        >> Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO's first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
        >>
        >> One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
        >>
        >> They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
        >>
        >> Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Mike Sabin
        Thanks to the KGO Engineer for the detailed information, much appreciated. The hypothesis he describes, dips in SNR in Ch 7 reception at Mt Allison, is a good
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 22, 2012
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          Thanks to the KGO Engineer for the detailed information, much appreciated. The hypothesis he describes, dips in SNR in Ch 7 reception at Mt Allison, is a good fit to the symptoms I've observed on Ch35 in Sunnyvale. No problems since Tuesday, but too soon to tell, fingers crossed...

          At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
          >I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
          >
          >He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
          >
          >The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
          >
          >They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
          >
          >Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO�s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
          >
          >One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
          >
          >They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
          >
          >Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Mike Sabin
          Uh-oh, symptoms appeared again tonight (24 June) on KGO-35. Watched from 11:30P to 1:00A, picture was breaking up every few minutes but still watchable,
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 25, 2012
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            Uh-oh, symptoms appeared again tonight (24 June) on KGO-35. Watched from 11:30P to 1:00A, picture was breaking up every few minutes but still watchable, signal strong and stable the whole time. Better than last weekend, when it was unwatchable, but too soon to determine if things have improved.

            At 6/22/2012 11:54 PM, you wrote:
            >Thanks to the KGO Engineer for the detailed information, much appreciated. The hypothesis he describes, dips in SNR in Ch 7 reception at Mt Allison, is a good fit to the symptoms I've observed on Ch35 in Sunnyvale. No problems since Tuesday, but too soon to tell, fingers crossed...
            >
            >At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
            >>I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
            >>
            >>He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
            >>
            >>The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
            >>
            >>They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
            >>
            >>Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO�s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
            >>
            >>One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
            >>
            >>They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
            >>
            >>Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
            >>
            >>
            >>------------------------------------
            >>
            >>Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Mike Sabin
            Uh-oh, symptoms again tonight (29 June) and severe. Tuned in to KGO-35 at 7PM, unwatchable, picture mostly absent with set displaying program has no
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 29, 2012
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              Uh-oh, symptoms again tonight (29 June) and severe. Tuned in to KGO-35 at 7PM, unwatchable, picture mostly absent with set displaying "program has no content." Occasional bursts of pixels. I forgot to check signal strength, my bad.

              Tuned in later, about 10PM, all is well.

              At 6/25/2012 01:26 AM, I wrote:
              >Uh-oh, symptoms appeared again tonight (24 June) on KGO-35. Watched from 11:30P to 1:00A, picture was breaking up every few minutes but still watchable, signal strong and stable the whole time. Better than last weekend, when it was unwatchable, but too soon to determine if things have improved.
              >
              >At 6/22/2012 11:54 PM, you wrote:
              >>Thanks to the KGO Engineer for the detailed information, much appreciated. The hypothesis he describes, dips in SNR in Ch 7 reception at Mt Allison, is a good fit to the symptoms I've observed on Ch35 in Sunnyvale. No problems since Tuesday, but too soon to tell, fingers crossed...
              >>
              >>At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
              >>>I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
              >>>
              >>>He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
              >>>
              >>>The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
              >>>
              >>>They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
              >>>
              >>>Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO�s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
              >>>
              >>>One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
              >>>
              >>>They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
              >>>
              >>>Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>------------------------------------
              >>>
              >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >>
              >>------------------------------------
              >>
              >>Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
            • Harry Birmingham
              Heavy clouds, varying attenuation and digital PCM signal dropouts. Sent from my iPhone Harry Birmingham
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 30, 2012
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                Heavy clouds, varying attenuation and digital PCM signal dropouts.

                Sent from my iPhone
                Harry Birmingham


                On Jun 30, 2012, at 1:26 AM, Mike Sabin <mike.sabin@...> wrote:

                > Uh-oh, symptoms again tonight (29 June) and severe. Tuned in to KGO-35 at 7PM, unwatchable, picture mostly absent with set displaying "program has no content." Occasional bursts of pixels. I forgot to check signal strength, my bad.
                >
                > Tuned in later, about 10PM, all is well.
                >
                > At 6/25/2012 01:26 AM, I wrote:
                >> Uh-oh, symptoms appeared again tonight (24 June) on KGO-35. Watched from 11:30P to 1:00A, picture was breaking up every few minutes but still watchable, signal strong and stable the whole time. Better than last weekend, when it was unwatchable, but too soon to determine if things have improved.
                >>
                >> At 6/22/2012 11:54 PM, you wrote:
                >>> Thanks to the KGO Engineer for the detailed information, much appreciated. The hypothesis he describes, dips in SNR in Ch 7 reception at Mt Allison, is a good fit to the symptoms I've observed on Ch35 in Sunnyvale. No problems since Tuesday, but too soon to tell, fingers crossed...
                >>>
                >>> At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
                >>>> I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                >>>>
                >>>> He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
                >>>>
                >>>> The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
                >>>>
                >>>> They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
                >>>>
                >>>> Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO�s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
                >>>>
                >>>> One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
                >>>>
                >>>> They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
                >>>>
                >>>> Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>> ------------------------------------
                >>>>
                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • le_deuce
                KGO 35 s been crapping out, off and on this evening (Wednesday, Prime Time ), even though the signal (carrier?) level is always 100%. 8:00-~8:30PM, so much
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 11 11:32 PM
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                  KGO 35's been crapping out, off and on this evening (Wednesday, 'Prime Time'), even though the signal (carrier?) level is always 100%.

                  8:00-~8:30PM, so much pixellation, most of 'The Middle' wasn't watchable.
                  8:30-~9:00PM, 'Suburgatory' reception was perfect, no dropouts.
                  9:00-10:00PM, 'Modern Family'(two 1/2 hr episodes)
                  1st episode had perfect reception
                  2nd episode, video/audio stopped at 9:48PM
                  (i.e. went to 'black screen', signal was still 100%)
                  Sometime after 10PM, programming (video & audio) came back on (- still perfect at 11:25PM).

                  I hope the engineers at KGO can get the signal reception at the translator fixed, especially before the new Fall season starts*. - Prime time reception seems to be the problem..

                  ..............Brian
                  (*I am 'motivated' to get this solved; this issue is causing some disharmony at home; I hope I don't have to resort to having to get $cable or $satellite.. or attempt to put up a VHF antenna in my attic)

                  --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                  >
                  > He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
                  >
                  > The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
                  >
                  > They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
                  >
                  > Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO's first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
                  >
                  > One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
                  >
                  > They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
                  >
                  > Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
                  >
                • Mike Sabin
                  Uh-oh, KGO-35 bad again tonight (16 Aug). Turned it on 11:10PM to watch news, video/audio breaking up intermittenly, became unwatchable by 11:20PM. Signal
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 16, 2012
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                    Uh-oh, KGO-35 bad again tonight (16 Aug). Turned it on 11:10PM to watch news, video/audio breaking up intermittenly, became unwatchable by 11:20PM. Signal strong and stable.

                    Any progress since message below? I'm hoping it's squared away before college football starts in September, but doesn't look like it will be.

                    mike

                    At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
                    >I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                    >
                    >He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
                    >
                    >The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
                    >
                    >They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
                    >
                    >Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO�s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
                    >
                    >One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
                    >
                    >They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
                    >
                    >Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Larry Kenney
                    I haven t heard anything further from KGO s engineer since they said they were going to add a microwave link from the studio to the translator site. Larry - -
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 17, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I haven't heard anything further from KGO's engineer since they said they were going to add a microwave link from the studio to the translator site.

                      Larry

                      - - -

                      On Aug 16, 2012, at 11:22 PM, Mike Sabin wrote:

                      > Uh-oh, KGO-35 bad again tonight (16 Aug). Turned it on 11:10PM to watch news, video/audio breaking up intermittenly, became unwatchable by 11:20PM. Signal strong and stable.
                      >
                      > Any progress since message below? I'm hoping it's squared away before college football starts in September, but doesn't look like it will be.
                      >
                      > mike
                      >
                      > At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
                      >> I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                      >>
                      >> He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
                      >>
                      >> The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
                      >>
                      >> They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
                      >>
                      >> Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO‚s first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
                      >>
                      >> One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
                      >>
                      >> They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
                      >>
                      >> Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ------------------------------------
                      >>
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                    • Stephen H. Fischer
                      Hi, Any idea if they are using an antenna cut for RF 7? And it s type. KGO RF 7 to KDTV 36.42 miles. KGO RF 7 to me 36.38 miles. I am using a CM4228HD UHF
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 17, 2012
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                        Hi,

                        Any idea if they are using an antenna cut for RF 7? And it's type.

                        KGO RF 7 to KDTV 36.42 miles.

                        KGO RF 7 to me 36.38 miles. I am using a CM4228HD UHF antenna. (Plus two
                        amps.)

                        It is rock solid for me, but then I do not watch KGO RF 7 24/7/365 like the
                        translator.

                        The path is over water but I was told that KEMO RF 32 (96.7 miles) and KRCB
                        RF 23 (75.1 miles) are possible due to being over water. They do disappear
                        at times.

                        Is microwave a bigger problem over water?

                        See AVS for map.

                        http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/8820#post_22316768

                        [IMG
                        ALT=""]http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/54571/width/200/height/400%5b/IMG]

                        SHF

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Larry Kenney" <Larry@...>
                        To: <HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 11:27 AM
                        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KGO Translator Channel 35

                        I haven't heard anything further from KGO's engineer since they said they
                        were going to add a microwave link from the studio to the translator site.

                        Larry

                        - - -

                        On Aug 16, 2012, at 11:22 PM, Mike Sabin wrote:

                        > Uh-oh, KGO-35 bad again tonight (16 Aug). Turned it on 11:10PM to watch
                        > news, video/audio breaking up intermittenly, became unwatchable by
                        > 11:20PM. Signal strong and stable.
                        >
                        > Any progress since message below? I'm hoping it's squared away before
                        > college football starts in September, but doesn't look like it will be.
                        >
                        > mike
                        >
                        > At 6/22/2012 12:10 AM, you wrote:
                        >> I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer
                        >> who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF
                        >> OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                        >>
                        >> One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system
                        >> between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream
                        >> directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as
                        >> a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because
                        >> the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does
                        >> experience signal fading occasionally.
                      • Larry Kenney
                        ... Rich, the KGO Engineer, said they were using an antenna cut for channel 7, but he didn t indicate what brand. Their big problem is the high level of RF
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 17, 2012
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                          On Aug 17, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                          > Any idea if they are using an antenna cut for RF 7? And it's type.

                          Rich, the KGO Engineer, said they were using an antenna cut for channel 7, but he didn't indicate what brand.
                          Their big problem is the high level of RF from all the transmitters there at Mt. Allison. The channel 7 signal has to over power the RF level at the site.

                          The antenna seems to be working really well. When KGO goes off the air, like it does once a month for transmitter and remote calibration, it's been reported that the translator has picked up KRCR on channel 7 from Redding.

                          >
                          > Is microwave a bigger problem over water?
                          >

                          I don't know how much of a problem there is for microwave, but he said some fading can be expected on the microwave link over water.

                          Larry
                        • Steve Ipson
                          Perhaps the recurrent problem with the translator is that it is picking up the signal from KRCR, as well as the signal from KGO. This could lead to a multipath
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 17, 2012
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                            Perhaps the recurrent problem with the translator is that it is picking up the signal from KRCR, as well as the signal from KGO. This could lead to a multipath interference problem, leading to the results we are seeing, right? If so, they may have to go to a fiber optic link or a microwave relay.
                             

                            To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                            From: Larry@...
                            Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:59:38 -0700
                            Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KGO Translator Channel 35

                             
                            On Aug 17, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                            > Any idea if they are using an antenna cut for RF 7? And it's type.

                            Rich, the KGO Engineer, said they were using an antenna cut for channel 7, but he didn't indicate what brand.
                            Their big problem is the high level of RF from all the transmitters there at Mt. Allison. The channel 7 signal has to over power the RF level at the site.

                            The antenna seems to be working really well. When KGO goes off the air, like it does once a month for transmitter and remote calibration, it's been reported that the translator has picked up KRCR on channel 7 from Redding.

                            >
                            > Is microwave a bigger problem over water?
                            >

                            I don't know how much of a problem there is for microwave, but he said some fading can be expected on the microwave link over water.

                            Larry


                          • Mike Sabin
                            Both of these are interesting hypotheses: high RF from co-located transmitters; and interference from KRCR. I ve noticed the problem primarily in the late
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 17, 2012
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                              Both of these are interesting hypotheses:  high RF from co-located transmitters; and interference from KRCR.  I've noticed the problem primarily in the late evening, 11PM and later.  Does that give a clue? 

                              Thinking it over, I do most of my KGO watching late evening, so maybe the observation isn't too useful.

                              mike

                              At 8/17/2012 04:32 PM, you wrote:
                               

                              Perhaps the recurrent problem with the translator is that it is picking up the signal from KRCR, as well as the signal from KGO. This could lead to a multipath interference problem, leading to the results we are seeing, right? If so, they may have to go to a fiber optic link or a microwave relay.
                               

                              To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                              From: Larry@...
                              Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 15:59:38 -0700
                              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KGO Translator Channel 35

                               
                              On Aug 17, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                              > Any idea if they are using an antenna cut for RF 7? And it's type.

                              Rich, the KGO Engineer, said they were using an antenna cut for channel 7, but he didn't indicate what brand.
                              Their big problem is the high level of RF from all the transmitters there at Mt. Allison. The channel 7 signal has to over power the RF level at the site.

                              The antenna seems to be working really well. When KGO goes off the air, like it does once a month for transmitter and remote calibration, it's been reported that the translator has picked up KRCR on channel 7 from Redding.

                              >
                              > Is microwave a bigger problem over water?
                              >

                              I don't know how much of a problem there is for microwave, but he said some fading can be expected on the microwave link over water.

                              Larry


                            • Bookcollector
                              I would guess that this problem doesn t exist when a tech is at the site. I suspect coastal ducting may be the issue. A number of years ago I was remoting on
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 30, 2012
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                                I would guess that this problem doesn't exist when a tech is at the site.

                                I suspect coastal ducting may be the issue. A number of years ago I was remoting on 220mHz between Santa Ynez peak and Tassajera, a line of sight path. There were a couple of summer evenings when the 220 signal from Santa Ynez completely disappeared. At the same time signals from the north coast would be coming through.

                                I receive KRCR frequently here (Amador Co.) and sometimes when beamed at KGO. When the Chico-Redding stations duct in they are very strong (in the 90s). My guess is that KRCR signal strength at Allison is reducing the 22 db margin to an unacceptable level.



                                --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum.
                                >
                                > He said that they spent several hours at Mt. Allison on Tuesday working on the translator to try and figure out why the video and audio have been going out. Viewers have reported that the signal remains strong but the picture intermittently goes black and the sound goes away.
                                >
                                > The translator simply takes the channel 7 signal from Sutro and re-transmits it on channel 35, so one possibility for the loss of picture and sound is the loss of signal feeding the translator. If it drops to 16 dB SNR there will be break up and if it drops to the cliff edge at about 15.5 dB the signal will disappear. He said that they worked on the receive antenna to try and improve the signal. They attached a signal strength meter to the receiver and a DTV signal analyzer on the antenna output. The signal level being received on channel 7 before they started was at 51.5 dBuv (dB microvolt) with a SNR@ 20 db and fairly stable. They moved the receive antenna about 2 feet higher on the tower and the signal level went up to 55.1 dBuv with a SNR@ 22 db stable signal. This is an increase of 2 dB SNR headroom.
                                >
                                > They don' t know if this will solve the signal drop-out problem but it's a possible solution. Maybe the 2 dB will be enough to handle signal fluctuations. Another symptom of the problem could be that the PSIP is occasionally not being decoded causing the input signal to disappear, so they worked on that as well.
                                >
                                > Since it's an intermittent problem they have to try several different possible fixes to see what works. He said that they will keep working on this and see if they can solve the problem. He said to remember that this is KGO's first translator and they're learning and trying new solutions as they are moving forward.
                                >
                                > One more option they're exploring is to install a microwave system between the KGO studios and Mt. Allison. Then they can send an ASI stream directly to Allison to drive the exciters and use the receive antenna as a backup source. The microwave is not a perfect solution though, because the path is at the maximum fade margin and it is over water, and it does experience signal fading occasionally.
                                >
                                > They are also planning to install an off-air monitor at the site and put a web cam on it to monitor the transmitter output.
                                >
                                > Further reports from you, the viewers here, would be appreciated.
                                >
                              • r.mikey
                                This was the exact same problem with Viacom cable in Marin and their headend on Mt. Tam. The ducting would basically introduce tons of multipath and the calls
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 30, 2012
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                                  This was the exact same problem with Viacom cable in Marin and their headend on Mt. Tam. The ducting would basically introduce tons of multipath and the calls would start coming in (I worked the Service desk at the time). I'll spare you all the indignation I suffered :) For some reason, it was only KRON. Were they (more/different) directional at the time?

                                  The same resolution came to be also, which was a microwave link between Sutro and Tam. That got rid of the multipath, but when the duct was at it's worst, the microwave would fade. That failure mode was video fade and audio distortion (and resulting calls). Eventually, a humongous dish was installed, and the fade was barely perceptible during the worst duct.

                                  --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Bookcollector" <bookcollector@...> wrote:

                                  > I suspect coastal ducting may be the issue...
                                  >
                                  > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I received the following information from the KGO Transmitter Engineer who said to please pass it on the members of the SF HD Yahoo Group and SF OTA Thread on the AVS Forum...
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