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Re: KEFM Channel 6

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  • nwsayer
    It s an insane waste of bandwidth. They re occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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      It's an insane waste of bandwidth. They're occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence for FM stero standard) of audio. That's just retarded.

      They really should have reallocated VHF Lo. ATSC hates it and it's far, far too valuable to continue to waste it. Channel 6 should have been added to the bottom of the FM band and channels 2 through 4 used for a new non-government digital land mobile service (Taxi dispatch, UPS/FedEx, et al).

      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Hackler <donh@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > This is what industry people call a "Franken-FM". It's actual target audience is people listening to the aural carrier on FM radios just below the bottom of the FM band. They will only be able to run this for a while before it is require to convert to digital.
      >
      > On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:23 PM, "Bookcollector" <bookcollector@...> wrote:
      >
      > > KEFM-LP channel 6 analog, Sacramento, is active for the past week showing a computer screen and their call letters (if you have good eyes). Also playing some Christian rock music. Interesting that they would put an analog channel on the air
      > >
      >
    • Duke And Rat
      I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it s TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed. Why
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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        I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it's TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed.

        Why should this be legal, and Franken FM's illegal?





        BD




        On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:08 PM, nwsayer wrote:

        > It's an insane waste of bandwidth. They're occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence for FM stero standard) of audio. That's just retarded.
        >
        > They really should have reallocated VHF Lo. ATSC hates it and it's far, far too valuable to continue to waste it. Channel 6 should have been added to the bottom of the FM band and channels 2 through 4 used for a new non-government digital land mobile service (Taxi dispatch, UPS/FedEx, et al).
        >
        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Hackler <donh@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >> This is what industry people call a "Franken-FM". It's actual target audience is people listening to the aural carrier on FM radios just below the bottom of the FM band. They will only be able to run this for a while before it is require to convert to digital.
        >>
        >> On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:23 PM, "Bookcollector" <bookcollector@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>> KEFM-LP channel 6 analog, Sacramento, is active for the past week showing a computer screen and their call letters (if you have good eyes). Also playing some Christian rock music. Interesting that they would put an analog channel on the air
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Stephen H. Fischer
        Hi, And what about channel 1, it has eight (8) Radio (Audio Only) streams with five (5) active right now. That s in addition to twelve (12) Video streams which
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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        Hi,
         
        And what about channel 1, it has eight (8) Radio (Audio Only) streams with five (5) active right now.
         
        That's in addition to twelve (12) Video streams which are all active.
         
        KAXT, Virtual Channel One (1) is on RF 42. Twenty (20) total streams.
         
        SHF 
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 2:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: KEFM Channel 6

         

        I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it's TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed.

        Why should this be legal, and Franken FM's illegal?

        BD

        On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:08 PM, nwsayer wrote:

        > It's an insane waste of bandwidth. They're occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence for FM stero standard) of audio. That's just retarded.
        >
        > They really should have reallocated VHF Lo. ATSC hates it and it's far, far too valuable to continue to waste it. Channel 6 should have been added to the bottom of the FM band and channels 2 through 4 used for a new non-government digital land mobile service (Taxi dispatch, UPS/FedEx, et al).
        >
        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Hackler <donh@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >> This is what industry people call a "Franken-FM". It's actual target audience is people listening to the aural carrier on FM radios just below the bottom of the FM band. They will only be able to run this for a while before it is require to convert to digital.
        >>
        >> On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:23 PM, "Bookcollector" <bookcollector@...> wrote:
        >>
        >>> KEFM-LP channel 6 analog, Sacramento, is active for the past week showing a computer screen and their call letters (if you have good eyes). Also playing some Christian rock music. Interesting that they would put an analog channel on the air
        >>>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

      • Don Hackler
        It not illegal, just a waste of a TV license and 6Mhz of spectrum. The KRCB sub channel with the radio station on it is a fairly low bitrate and doesn t use up
        Message 4 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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          It not illegal, just a waste of a TV license and 6Mhz of spectrum.

          The KRCB sub channel with the radio station on it is a fairly low
          bitrate and doesn't use up a large chunk of the TV channel.
          Not sure about KRCB, but I can tell you that KCSM uses about 384Kbits
          for the audio, and about 1Mbit for the video portion.

          On 4/2/2012 2:02 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
          > I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it's TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed.
          >
          > Why should this be legal, and Franken FM's illegal?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > BD
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:08 PM, nwsayer wrote:
          >
          >> It's an insane waste of bandwidth. They're occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence for FM stero standard) of audio. That's just retarded.
          >>
          >> They really should have reallocated VHF Lo. ATSC hates it and it's far, far too valuable to continue to waste it. Channel 6 should have been added to the bottom of the FM band and channels 2 through 4 used for a new non-government digital land mobile service (Taxi dispatch, UPS/FedEx, et al).
          >>
          >> --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Hackler<donh@...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>> This is what industry people call a "Franken-FM". It's actual target audience is people listening to the aural carrier on FM radios just below the bottom of the FM band. They will only be able to run this for a while before it is require to convert to digital.
          >>>
          >>> On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:23 PM, "Bookcollector"<bookcollector@...> wrote:
          >>>
          >>>> KEFM-LP channel 6 analog, Sacramento, is active for the past week showing a computer screen and their call letters (if you have good eyes). Also playing some Christian rock music. Interesting that they would put an analog channel on the air
          >>>>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
        • Don Hackler
          KAXT-CA takes ATSC multicasting to a whole new level.
          Message 5 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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            KAXT-CA takes ATSC multicasting to a whole new level.

            On 4/2/2012 2:33 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:
            Hi,
             
            And what about channel 1, it has eight (8) Radio (Audio Only) streams with five (5) active right now.
             
            That's in addition to twelve (12) Video streams which are all active.
             
            KAXT, Virtual Channel One (1) is on RF 42. Twenty (20) total streams.
             
            SHF 
             


          • Stephen H. Fischer
            Hi, I know that you cannot say much now. But I have noted that the program listings have gone South, I.E. No Sub Titles. I just watched California s Gold
            Message 6 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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              Hi,
               
              I know that you cannot say much now.
               
              But I have noted that the program listings have gone South, I.E. No Sub Titles.
               
              I just watched "California's Gold" that was about "Donuts. The first time I watched it, the particular show was in the title.
               
              Will the station be off the air while equipment is being moved?
               
              SHF
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 3:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: KEFM Channel 6

               

              It not illegal, just a waste of a TV license and 6Mhz of spectrum.

              The KRCB sub channel with the radio station on it is a fairly low
              bitrate and doesn't use up a large chunk of the TV channel.
              Not sure about KRCB, but I can tell you that KCSM uses about 384Kbits
              for the audio, and about 1Mbit for the video portion.

              On 4/2/2012 2:02 PM, Duke And Rat wrote:
              > I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it's TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed.
              >
              > Why should this be legal, and Franken FM's illegal?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > BD
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Apr 2, 2012, at 12:08 PM, nwsayer wrote:
              >
              >> It's an insane waste of bandwidth. They're occupying a 6 MHz channel to transmit the equivalent of, oh, I dunno, 96 kbps or so worth (using a codec equivalence for FM stero standard) of audio. That's just retarded.
              >>
              >> They really should have reallocated VHF Lo. ATSC hates it and it's far, far too valuable to continue to waste it. Channel 6 should have been added to the bottom of the FM band and channels 2 through 4 used for a new non-government digital land mobile service (Taxi dispatch, UPS/FedEx, et al).
              >>
              >> --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Don Hackler<donh@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> This is what industry people call a "Franken-FM". It's actual target audience is people listening to the aural carrier on FM radios just below the bottom of the FM band. They will only be able to run this for a while before it is require to convert to digital.
              >>>
              >>> On Mar 30, 2012, at 5:23 PM, "Bookcollector"<bookcollector@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>>> KEFM-LP channel 6 analog, Sacramento, is active for the past week showing a computer screen and their call letters (if you have good eyes). Also playing some Christian rock music. Interesting that they would put an analog channel on the air
              >>>>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >

            • nwsayer
              Of KRCB s 19 MB/sec ATSC transport stream, perhaps as much as 200 kbps are being used for the simulcast and slide. If the entirety of the rest of the transport
              Message 7 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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                Of KRCB's 19 MB/sec ATSC transport stream, perhaps as much as 200 kbps are being used for the simulcast and slide.

                If the entirety of the rest of the transport stream was filled with NULs, then I'd say you had a point. But, in fact, KRCB is also sending one HD and one SD stream along with it. I'd say they're making a reasonably effective use of the resource.

                --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Duke And Rat <dukenrat@...> wrote:
                >
                > I look at it as similar to our KRCB, which uses one of it's TV channels to re-broadcast their FM station, and uses a one-color drawing as the video feed.
                >
                > Why should this be legal, and Franken FM's illegal?
              • nwsayer
                Just to amplify a bit.... In thinking about it now, I think this is one area that DVB does better than ATSC - it has multiple bandwidth and bitrate
                Message 8 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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                  Just to amplify a bit....

                  In thinking about it now, I think this is one area that DVB does better than ATSC - it has multiple bandwidth and bitrate specifications.

                  In principle, there's no real reason that the band must remain channelized as it is. With digital tuning, it would be fairly simple to sweep the entire band picking up all of the pilots and then look at them to determine their characteristics.

                  With such an arrangement, licensing fees could be related to the amount of bandwidth AND the area to be covered. The Big Boys could have 8 MHz channels and maybe 25+ MB/sec, while the KGOD and home shopping types could get 3 MHz, which is still plenty for a single SD stream. It would also offer far more flexibility in setting up geographic guard spaces. One other benefit would be shrinking up the Channel 37 "dead space" to be just enough to shield the radio astronomers (surely they don't need the whole 6 MHz).

                  But it's too late now.

                  ATSC is almost assuredly going to be the last terrestrial broadcast television standard. TV in the future will be delivered over IP.

                  --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "nwsayer" <nsayer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Of KRCB's 19 MB/sec ATSC transport stream, perhaps as much as 200 kbps are being used for the simulcast and slide.
                  >
                  > If the entirety of the rest of the transport stream was filled with NULs, then I'd say you had a point. But, in fact, KRCB is also sending one HD and one SD stream along with it. I'd say they're making a reasonably effective use of the resource.
                • Don Hackler
                  I m assuming you are talking to me (Don Hackler at KCSM) about the upcoming sale of KCSM TV. ... Not only can I not *say* anything, I don t *know* anything
                  Message 9 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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                    I'm assuming you are talking to me (Don Hackler at KCSM) about the upcoming sale of KCSM TV.

                    On 4/2/2012 3:34 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                    Hi,
                     
                    I know that you cannot say much now.

                    Not only can I not *say* anything, I don't *know* anything other than what has been published on the SMCCD.EDU website.
                    There were a few bidders that submitted proposals and they are listed there: 

                    http://sharepoint.smccd.edu/SiteDirectory/generalservices/Lists/Bid%20Announcements/DispForm.aspx?ID=18

                     
                    But I have noted that the program listings have gone South, I.E. No Sub Titles.
                     
                    I just watched "California's Gold" that was about "Donuts. The first time I watched it, the particular show was in the title.

                    Are you talking about the electronic program guide or the closed captioning?
                    They should both be working.
                    Reports of any thing out of the ordinary are appreciated here:
                    mailto:techissuses@...
                    (The broadcast engineers monitor this address and follow up on things quickly.)

                     
                    Will the station be off the air while equipment is being moved?

                    Hard to say, but there's not much reason to shut it down if/when it is sold.
                    The transmitter will remain at Sutro.  It can't be located anywhere else.

                    Even if the studios are moved, it's not too difficult to keep things running.  Worst case maybe a few hours at a time while critical equipment is relocated.



                  • Stephen H. Fischer
                    Hi, Well you provided a link to information that has not been seen by me before. I am unsure even though you provided it on a public list, if I should post it
                    Message 10 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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                      Hi,

                      Well you provided a link to information that has not been seen by me before.

                      I am unsure even though you provided it on a public list, if I should post it to AVS. There will be a lot of interest there.

                      --------------------

                      The program listing are those provided to Tribune Media Services and then to me via Schedules Direct Service, which I pay a fee for. They have a lot of cable companies they provide listings to also. SD is a very minor customer.

                      I now have listings for 4/12/2012, much further into the future than the electronic program guide you send over the air. Only the next 26 hours is used for scheduling which is downloaded just before the programs are selected.

                       

                      http://www.tribunemediaservices.com/

                      http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

                      http://www.zap2it.com/ is the free online guide.

                      I watch very little live TV, most programs are automatically scheduled and watched at a later date. Programs already viewed are not scheduled again. The current listings for KCSM sometimes do not have episode numbers which are necessary for the process to work.

                      http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=7370557&postcount=1

                       

                      Tribune Media Services is not the only station program listing consolidator.

                      ------------------

                      Thanks for the word on switch over down time.

                      SHF

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 6:15 PM
                      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] KCSM TV -- was Re: KEFM Channel 6

                       

                      I'm assuming you are talking to me (Don Hackler at KCSM) about the upcoming sale of KCSM TV.

                      On 4/2/2012 3:34 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:


                      Hi,
                       
                      I know that you cannot say much now.

                      Not only can I not *say* anything, I don't *know* anything other than what has been published on the SMCCD.EDU website.
                      There were a few bidders that submitted proposals and they are listed there: 

                      http://sharepoint.smccd.edu/SiteDirectory/generalservices/Lists/Bid%20Announcements/DispForm.aspx?ID=18

                       
                      But I have noted that the program listings have gone South, I.E. No Sub Titles.
                       
                      I just watched "California's Gold" that was about "Donuts. The first time I watched it, the particular show was in the title.

                      Are you talking about the electronic program guide or the closed captioning?
                      They should both be working.
                      Reports of any thing out of the ordinary are appreciated here:
                      mailto:techissuses@...
                      (The broadcast engineers monitor this address and follow up on things quickly.)

                       
                      Will the station be off the air while equipment is being moved?

                      Hard to say, but there's not much reason to shut it down if/when it is sold.
                      The transmitter will remain at Sutro.  It can't be located anywhere else.

                      Even if the studios are moved, it's not too difficult to keep things running.  Worst case maybe a few hours at a time while critical equipment is relocated.



                    • Don Hackler
                      Please feel free to post the link. Everything the college district posts there is public information. It s a sale of a major asset by a community college
                      Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2, 2012
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                        Please feel free to post the link.   
                        Everything the college district posts there is public information.
                        It's a sale of a major asset by a community college district and there are strict rules about how it is done and what must be published.
                        When there is any news about the sale it will be published there first.

                        If you don't have the link handy, just go to www.smccd.edu ; find the General Services department and look for Current Bid Announcements.

                        On 4/2/2012 7:42 PM, Stephen H. Fischer wrote:

                        Hi,

                        Well you provided a link to information that has not been seen by me before.

                        I am unsure even though you provided it on a public list, if I should post it to AVS. There will be a lot of interest there.

                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.