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Re: Which option will local stations take in the DTV delay?

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  • wilfsdad1965
    i think you are missing the point of my rant (deliberately or accidentally). news is not biased to the left or the right, it is biased towards the stations
    Message 1 of 34 , Feb 4, 2009
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      i think you are missing the point of my rant (deliberately or
      accidentally). news is not biased to the left or the right, it is
      biased towards the stations target audience, like any other program.
      in the case of pbs it is to the left, everywhere else it is to the
      right, but not because of the journalists, but because of market
      research/segmentation whatever you want to call it. if you think
      everybody except fox news is left leaning, it means you are leaning
      more to the right than you think, not the other way around.
      it is just as applicable to radio. i think talk radio is an
      abomination, i don't care which way it leans. polemic and inflamatory
      speech masquerading as 'journalism'.

      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@...> wrote:
      >
      > Everything you just wrote here is also applicable to radio as well so
      > it seems to me the question is moot that there is no (pure)
      > information/news medium. Clearly (to anyone who is not limited to the
      > alphabet soup of TV outlets for their their news) there IS deliberate
      > bias in ALL news reporting, both left and right leaning. It just
      > happens that presently most is slanted left.
      >
      > Unless your news sources include the items reported on by talk radio
      > hosts as well as internet news sites, you are not getting much of
      > anything the purveyors of network news don't want emphasized. It is
      > every thinking persons duty to sift out the chaff or flack from both
      > sides and there by come to know the truth (or as much of it as is
      > available anywhere).
      >
      > The fact that reporters in presidential 'news' conferences ask mostly
      > softball questions to avoid being placed on a black list and thus not
      > be called on next time is an unfortunate fact of life - which can only
      > be remedied by having ALL agree to ask the difficult questions --
      > which would be predicated on total objectivity by each 'journalist'.
      >
      > In case you missed that too, "public radio/TV stations are not any
      > more objective than any others simply because their subscriber base is
      > mostly left of center. Simple fact of life - artists and those who
      > most support them are almost always liberals - which is OK with me as
      > long as I have ALL points of view available from which to choose (or
      > perhaps synthesize).
      >
      > - end of rant in response to rant :-) ~ epicurusradium.
      >
      >
      > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "wilfsdad1965"
      > <wilfsdad1965@> wrote:
      > >
      > > your reasoning is flawed. TV has ALWAYS been an entertainment medium,
      > > and that includes the news. if ktvu/kron/kpix et al reported REAL
      > > world news everybody would switch off and not buy products advertised
      > > during the program, because they would be so appalled and depressed at
      > > the state of our state/nation/world. why do you think they lead with a
      > > story like 'rain in the bay area' when it rains?
      > > jeez, why do you think it was called Kraft playhouse theater back in
      > > the day, or why rod serling shilled for the tobacco industry.
      > > Sponsors run television.
      > > as for a liberal bias in mainstream news journalism? you really think
      > > journalists make the news? i bet you think DJ's play only records they
      > > like too. did you watch fox news on election night, it was like a
      > > wake, hilarious. newscasters are just mouthpieces for sponsors and if
      > > they don't stay on message, there are plenty lining up to take their
      > > place.
      > > ever wondered why the prez (whoever it is) is tossed up easy questions
      > > at his press conference? because if you ask too many difficult
      > > questions you are denied access, your raised hand is ignored, and that
      > > makes you useless as a reporter. so the washington bureau
      > > correspondants have to go along with it, or they're out of a job. it
      > > should of course be the other way around, the prez should answer the
      > > difficult questions or he is out of a job.
      > > how about fox 5 news in vegas who have mcdonalds ice tea on their
      > > desks in blatant product placement.
      > > what i'd like to see is a little warning box come up on the screen
      > > when the segment we are watching is payola and not real news.
      > > ask the late bill hicks why his last Letterman appearance which
      > > included a joke making fun of pro lifers was cut from broadcast,
      > > whilst a pro life advert appeared during said show.
      > > PBS is now hardly any different, the adverts come in the form of
      > > underwriting at the end or beginning of shows. and most of the stuff
      > > they buy is british sitcoms, comedy, drama, as opposed to american.
      > > KALW rang me up after i stopped my membership a few years back. when
      > > asked what would make me return i told them "get rid of your adverts
      > > and go back to being a public radio station".
      > > end of rant.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > :-)
      > > > Well Allen, as a FORMER lifelong liberal Democrat (for 40+ yrs) I
      > > > agree that it is totally political - as is just about everything the
      > > > D's and R's do. As for the rest of your 'cult of the personality'
      > > > message - just wait and see.
      > > >
      > > > Someone above said (sorry forgot name/ID) TV is only an
      entertainment
      > > > medium. I agree in part, TV is as it now exists is mostly an
      > > > entertainment medium. The 'news' it does provide, except for
      local, is
      > > > only that which those in the 'journalism'/news 'profession' want
      shown
      > > > (that which does not fit the 'liberal' agenda is quickly swept under
      > > > the rug, if it is covered at all. PBS is somewhat different in
      that it
      > > > is educational in part but of course is also slanted way left
      > > > politically. The problem here as with most, is that we get what we
      > > > deserve in the larger sense.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Allen Edwards
      > > > <allen.edwards@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I am a life long Democrat and this thing is totally political and
      > > > > STUPID. It is designed to put the transition past the first 100
      > days
      > > > > so as not to have 6 million pissed of people distracting from
      > all the
      > > > > good things Obama is going to do for the country. I should add, 6
      > > > > million dumb ass pissed off people. My apologies to any dumb ass
      > > > > stupid people I may have offended. Now, if moving the DTV
      > transition
      > > > > allows us to get out of Iraq, get peace in the Middle East,
      get the
      > > > > economy back on track, and fix global warming, I am all for
      it. So,
      > > > > like Bush says, history will be the judge and we won't know
      until we
      > > > > are all dead.
      > > > >
      > > > > Allen
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 4:44 PM, naturalcat <naturalcat@> wrote:
      > > > > > i think the key was the "optional" component which was an escape
      > > > > > clause for anyone opposing the bill. however, as others here
      have
      > > > > > pointed out, it's not so optional b/c channel changes need to be
      > > > > > coordinated in wide swaths of area. i'm disappointed with the
      > > > > > decision, but it seems to be an unstoppable snowball at this
      > point.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Link Perry <link.perry@>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >> Well, since the bill passed the Senate unanimously, I don't
      > see how
      > > > > > you lay
      > > > > >> blame fully on the Dems. If it passed that way in the
      Senate, you
      > > > > > can be
      > > > > >> sure it will sail through the House.
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >> Link
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >> On 1/27/09, epicurusradium <gene9@> wrote:
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> > I wonder also,, if we still had a Republican administration
      > (with
      > > > > > all
      > > > > >> > it's faults) whether this nonsense would be happening? The
      > party
      > > > > > now
      > > > > >> > in power is notorious for pandering to a constituency that
      > > > > > chronically
      > > > > >> > expects government to solve all their problems for
      > them..... 'for
      > > > > > free'.
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd"
      <allen.edwards@>
      > > > > > wrote:
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> > > Looks like we will get an optional delay for the DTV
      > > tramsition.
      > > > > >> > > Stupid stupid decision, imho, but that is beside the point.
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> > > What I am wondering is will the stations keep to their
      > schedule
      > > > > > and
      > > > > >> > > switch over on Feb 17, or will they delay? Can they even
      > > > > > switch? I
      > > > > >> > > mean, can some stations move to their new frequency
      locations
      > > > > > while
      > > > > >> > > other analog stations stay put. Can they switch to the full
      > > > > > power DTV
      > > > > >> > > transmissions while the analog stations are still
      there? Who
      > > > > > is going
      > > > > >> > > to coordinate this hodge podge station by station
      transition?
      > > > > > Are
      > > > > >> > > stations going to have to coordinate with each other
      > region by
      > > > > > region?
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> > > I know some people on this list work at local stations. Can
      > > > > > you share
      > > > > >> > > the thinking of your station on this optional switch?
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> > > What are customers going to think if stations switch even
      > > > > > though being
      > > > > >> > > told by news stories that there was a delay? Did I read
      that
      > > > > > there is
      > > > > >> > > a bribe in the legislation to keep stations from switching
      > > > > > (bribe is
      > > > > >> > > the wrong word, I think it is covering their costs).
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> > > Allen
      > > > > >> > >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> > ------------------------------------
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >> >
      > > > > >>
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • wilfsdad1965
      I m not sure that the free market we have here is any better, do you? It s not even a free market if the banks come whining with the begging bowl when
      Message 34 of 34 , Feb 13, 2009
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        I'm not sure that the 'free market' we have here is any better, do
        you? It's not even a 'free market' if the banks come whining with the
        begging bowl when things get tough. i bet they won't give any back
        when they start to rake in huge profits again.
        My 401k is now a 101k.



        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@...> wrote:
        >
        > LOL ROF! "a guy like obama is a 'wet' conservative meaning he's
        > center right. not one democrat would be considered left leaning by
        > anybody in the uk or europe."
        >
        > Oh,oh, I had no idea! Did not realize quite how far Europe has sunk
        > into socialism. Well anyway ya all better get used to it. They have
        > already put socialized medicine into the porkulus (scuse me stimulus)
        > bill.
        > http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs#
        >
        > just say know ~
        > epicurusradium
        >
        > (My last response to this)
        >
        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "wilfsdad1965"
        > <wilfsdad1965@> wrote:
        > >
        > > i'm a registered independant, and from the UK originally, where
        > > quality journalism did not pander to market segments like it does here
        > > (although unfortunately that's changing there now too). so i can see
        > > with an outsiders view as to how far left or right the usa (in
        > > general) is. a guy like obama is a 'wet' conservative meaning he's
        > > center right. not one democrat would be considered left leaning by
        > > anybody in the uk or europe. but that's probably a whole different can
        > > of worms.
        > > both sides left and right think news is biased against them, and this
        > > discussion we're having is proof of that. that says more about the
        > > human ability to complain rather than congratulate than anything else.
        > > just remember if news does not relate to it's target audience they
        > > watch something else instead, that's why stations show the news they
        > > do, not some hidden liberal or conservative agenda on behalf of the
        > > journos or producers.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Sorry Wilfsdad but it is you who has missed the point. What
        planet are
        > > > you living on anyway?
        > > >
        > > > What is assumed (by you and more than a few others)to be the center
        > > > mainstream, now is actually tilted significantly to the left. The
        > > > Democrat party of today is a far different animal from the
        Democratic
        > > > Party of 40-50 years ago. President Obama when still a senator was
        > > > known to be the farthest left member of that body -- which in
        2006-09
        > > > is saying a lot!
        > > >
        > > > Target audience? Why do you think all of the liberal newspapers are
        > > > going under? Remember Air America? Dull, boring and perhaps worst of
        > > > all, irrelevant, even to a skewed consensus reality.
        > > >
        > > > Hell, even with the minimal left social engineering of the 1940's
        > > > through '60s I was way out there on left field myself. Guess it goes
        > > > to the saying that:
        > > >
        > > > "If at 20 you are not a liberal you have no heart,
        > > > if at 50 you are not conservative you have no brain."
        > > > .....Or something like that.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "wilfsdad1965"
        > > > <wilfsdad1965@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > i think you are missing the point of my rant (deliberately or
        > > > > accidentally). news is not biased to the left or the right, it is
        > > > > biased towards the stations target audience, like any other
        program.
        > > > > in the case of pbs it is to the left, everywhere else it is to the
        > > > > right, but not because of the journalists, but because of market
        > > > > research/segmentation whatever you want to call it. if you think
        > > > > everybody except fox news is left leaning, it means you are
        leaning
        > > > > more to the right than you think, not the other way around.
        > > > > it is just as applicable to radio. i think talk radio is an
        > > > > abomination, i don't care which way it leans. polemic and
        > inflamatory
        > > > > speech masquerading as 'journalism'.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@>
        > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Everything you just wrote here is also applicable to radio as
        > > well so
        > > > > > it seems to me the question is moot that there is no (pure)
        > > > > > information/news medium. Clearly (to anyone who is not limited
        > > to the
        > > > > > alphabet soup of TV outlets for their their news) there IS
        > > deliberate
        > > > > > bias in ALL news reporting, both left and right leaning. It just
        > > > > > happens that presently most is slanted left.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Unless your news sources include the items reported on by talk
        > radio
        > > > > > hosts as well as internet news sites, you are not getting
        much of
        > > > > > anything the purveyors of network news don't want emphasized.
        > It is
        > > > > > every thinking persons duty to sift out the chaff or flack
        > from both
        > > > > > sides and there by come to know the truth (or as much of it
        as is
        > > > > > available anywhere).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > The fact that reporters in presidential 'news' conferences ask
        > > mostly
        > > > > > softball questions to avoid being placed on a black list and
        > > thus not
        > > > > > be called on next time is an unfortunate fact of life - which
        > > can only
        > > > > > be remedied by having ALL agree to ask the difficult
        questions --
        > > > > > which would be predicated on total objectivity by each
        > > 'journalist'.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > In case you missed that too, "public radio/TV stations are
        not any
        > > > > > more objective than any others simply because their subscriber
        > > base is
        > > > > > mostly left of center. Simple fact of life - artists and
        those who
        > > > > > most support them are almost always liberals - which is OK with
        > > me as
        > > > > > long as I have ALL points of view available from which to
        > choose (or
        > > > > > perhaps synthesize).
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - end of rant in response to rant :-) ~ epicurusradium.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "wilfsdad1965"
        > > > > > <wilfsdad1965@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > your reasoning is flawed. TV has ALWAYS been an entertainment
        > > > medium,
        > > > > > > and that includes the news. if ktvu/kron/kpix et al reported
        > REAL
        > > > > > > world news everybody would switch off and not buy products
        > > > advertised
        > > > > > > during the program, because they would be so appalled and
        > > > depressed at
        > > > > > > the state of our state/nation/world. why do you think they
        lead
        > > > with a
        > > > > > > story like 'rain in the bay area' when it rains?
        > > > > > > jeez, why do you think it was called Kraft playhouse theater
        > > back in
        > > > > > > the day, or why rod serling shilled for the tobacco industry.
        > > > > > > Sponsors run television.
        > > > > > > as for a liberal bias in mainstream news journalism? you
        really
        > > > think
        > > > > > > journalists make the news? i bet you think DJ's play only
        > > > records they
        > > > > > > like too. did you watch fox news on election night, it was
        > like a
        > > > > > > wake, hilarious. newscasters are just mouthpieces for sponsors
        > > > and if
        > > > > > > they don't stay on message, there are plenty lining up to take
        > > their
        > > > > > > place.
        > > > > > > ever wondered why the prez (whoever it is) is tossed up easy
        > > > questions
        > > > > > > at his press conference? because if you ask too many difficult
        > > > > > > questions you are denied access, your raised hand is ignored,
        > > > and that
        > > > > > > makes you useless as a reporter. so the washington bureau
        > > > > > > correspondants have to go along with it, or they're out of a
        > > job. it
        > > > > > > should of course be the other way around, the prez should
        > > answer the
        > > > > > > difficult questions or he is out of a job.
        > > > > > > how about fox 5 news in vegas who have mcdonalds ice tea on
        > their
        > > > > > > desks in blatant product placement.
        > > > > > > what i'd like to see is a little warning box come up on the
        > screen
        > > > > > > when the segment we are watching is payola and not real news.
        > > > > > > ask the late bill hicks why his last Letterman appearance
        which
        > > > > > > included a joke making fun of pro lifers was cut from
        broadcast,
        > > > > > > whilst a pro life advert appeared during said show.
        > > > > > > PBS is now hardly any different, the adverts come in the
        form of
        > > > > > > underwriting at the end or beginning of shows. and most of the
        > > stuff
        > > > > > > they buy is british sitcoms, comedy, drama, as opposed to
        > > american.
        > > > > > > KALW rang me up after i stopped my membership a few years
        > > back. when
        > > > > > > asked what would make me return i told them "get rid of your
        > > adverts
        > > > > > > and go back to being a public radio station".
        > > > > > > end of rant.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium"
        <gene9@>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > :-)
        > > > > > > > Well Allen, as a FORMER lifelong liberal Democrat (for 40+
        > > yrs) I
        > > > > > > > agree that it is totally political - as is just about
        > > > everything the
        > > > > > > > D's and R's do. As for the rest of your 'cult of the
        > > personality'
        > > > > > > > message - just wait and see.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Someone above said (sorry forgot name/ID) TV is only an
        > > > > entertainment
        > > > > > > > medium. I agree in part, TV is as it now exists is mostly an
        > > > > > > > entertainment medium. The 'news' it does provide, except for
        > > > > local, is
        > > > > > > > only that which those in the 'journalism'/news
        > 'profession' want
        > > > > shown
        > > > > > > > (that which does not fit the 'liberal' agenda is quickly
        swept
        > > > under
        > > > > > > > the rug, if it is covered at all. PBS is somewhat
        different in
        > > > > that it
        > > > > > > > is educational in part but of course is also slanted way
        left
        > > > > > > > politically. The problem here as with most, is that we get
        > > what we
        > > > > > > > deserve in the larger sense.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Allen Edwards
        > > > > > > > <allen.edwards@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > I am a life long Democrat and this thing is totally
        > > > political and
        > > > > > > > > STUPID. It is designed to put the transition past the
        > > first 100
        > > > > > days
        > > > > > > > > so as not to have 6 million pissed of people distracting
        > from
        > > > > > all the
        > > > > > > > > good things Obama is going to do for the country. I
        should
        > > > add, 6
        > > > > > > > > million dumb ass pissed off people. My apologies to any
        > > > dumb ass
        > > > > > > > > stupid people I may have offended. Now, if moving the DTV
        > > > > > transition
        > > > > > > > > allows us to get out of Iraq, get peace in the Middle
        East,
        > > > > get the
        > > > > > > > > economy back on track, and fix global warming, I am
        all for
        > > > > it. So,
        > > > > > > > > like Bush says, history will be the judge and we won't
        know
        > > > > until we
        > > > > > > > > are all dead.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Allen
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 4:44 PM, naturalcat <naturalcat@>
        > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > i think the key was the "optional" component which
        was an
        > > > escape
        > > > > > > > > > clause for anyone opposing the bill. however, as
        > others here
        > > > > have
        > > > > > > > > > pointed out, it's not so optional b/c channel
        changes need
        > > > to be
        > > > > > > > > > coordinated in wide swaths of area. i'm disappointed
        > > with the
        > > > > > > > > > decision, but it seems to be an unstoppable snowball
        > at this
        > > > > > point.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Link Perry
        > > <link.perry@>
        > > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> Well, since the bill passed the Senate unanimously, I
        > don't
        > > > > > see how
        > > > > > > > > > you lay
        > > > > > > > > >> blame fully on the Dems. If it passed that way in the
        > > > > Senate, you
        > > > > > > > > > can be
        > > > > > > > > >> sure it will sail through the House.
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> Link
        > > > > > > > > >>
        > > > > > > > > >> On 1/27/09, epicurusradium <gene9@> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> > I wonder also,, if we still had a Republican
        > > administration
        > > > > > (with
        > > > > > > > > > all
        > > > > > > > > >> > it's faults) whether this nonsense would be
        > > happening? The
        > > > > > party
        > > > > > > > > > now
        > > > > > > > > >> > in power is notorious for pandering to a constituency
        > > that
        > > > > > > > > > chronically
        > > > > > > > > >> > expects government to solve all their problems for
        > > > > > them..... 'for
        > > > > > > > > > free'.
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd"
        > > > > <allen.edwards@>
        > > > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> > > Looks like we will get an optional delay for
        the DTV
        > > > > > > tramsition.
        > > > > > > > > >> > > Stupid stupid decision, imho, but that is
        beside the
        > > > point.
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> > > What I am wondering is will the stations keep to
        > their
        > > > > > schedule
        > > > > > > > > > and
        > > > > > > > > >> > > switch over on Feb 17, or will they delay? Can they
        > > even
        > > > > > > > > > switch? I
        > > > > > > > > >> > > mean, can some stations move to their new frequency
        > > > > locations
        > > > > > > > > > while
        > > > > > > > > >> > > other analog stations stay put. Can they switch to
        > > > the full
        > > > > > > > > > power DTV
        > > > > > > > > >> > > transmissions while the analog stations are still
        > > > > there? Who
        > > > > > > > > > is going
        > > > > > > > > >> > > to coordinate this hodge podge station by station
        > > > > transition?
        > > > > > > > > > Are
        > > > > > > > > >> > > stations going to have to coordinate with each
        other
        > > > > > region by
        > > > > > > > > > region?
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> > > I know some people on this list work at local
        > > > stations. Can
        > > > > > > > > > you share
        > > > > > > > > >> > > the thinking of your station on this optional
        switch?
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> > > What are customers going to think if stations
        > > switch even
        > > > > > > > > > though being
        > > > > > > > > >> > > told by news stories that there was a delay? Did
        > I read
        > > > > that
        > > > > > > > > > there is
        > > > > > > > > >> > > a bribe in the legislation to keep stations from
        > > > switching
        > > > > > > > > > (bribe is
        > > > > > > > > >> > > the wrong word, I think it is covering their
        costs).
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> > > Allen
        > > > > > > > > >> > >
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> >
        > > > > > > > > >> > ------------------------------------
        > > > > > > > > >> >
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