Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto

Expand Messages
  • Richard Swank
    On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-scan or it will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished. This allows you to scan
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 1 7:30 AM

      On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-scan or it will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished.  This allows you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles without deleting prior acquired channels.


      From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of y158897571
      Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto

       

      I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper degrees
      towards San Bruno . I get the analog signal fine and get every other
      digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or 11.3.
      Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now nothing.
      When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it up
      anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other stations on
      that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital ones for
      KNTV?

    • xhpspd
      Try manually tuning to channel 12. That will tell you if it is a scan problem or a Rx problem. If you still cannot get it, then something is blocking your
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1 9:28 AM
        Try manually tuning to channel 12. That will tell you if it is a scan
        problem or a Rx problem. If you still cannot get it, then something
        is blocking your VHF signals. This is the only VHF channel at this
        time. I get it fine in Palo Alto.

        Allen


        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper degrees
        > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every other
        > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
        11.3.
        > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
        nothing.
        > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it up
        > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other stations
        on
        > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital ones
        for
        > KNTV?
        >
      • y158897571
        The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a pixalated image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it disappeared from the channel lineup
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 1 10:48 AM
          The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a pixalated
          image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it
          disappeared from the channel lineup so there is nothing to delete now.


          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-scan
          or it
          > will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished. This
          allows
          > you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles without
          deleting
          > prior acquired channels.
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
          SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
          > On Behalf Of y158897571
          > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
          > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto
          >
          >
          >
          > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper degrees
          > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every other
          > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
          11.3.
          > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
          nothing.
          > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it up
          > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other stations
          on
          > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital ones
          for
          > KNTV?
          >
        • y158897571
          Nothing on channel 12. I don t understand how it can be a VHF reception problem as I get their and everyone elses VHF analog signal fine. I thought that meant
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 1 10:52 AM
            Nothing on channel 12. I don't understand how it can be a VHF
            reception problem as I get their and everyone elses VHF analog signal
            fine. I thought that meant I should get each stations digital signal
            fine as well?

            --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Try manually tuning to channel 12. That will tell you if it is a
            scan
            > problem or a Rx problem. If you still cannot get it, then
            something
            > is blocking your VHF signals. This is the only VHF channel at this
            > time. I get it fine in Palo Alto.
            >
            > Allen
            >
            >
            > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper
            degrees
            > > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every
            other
            > > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
            > 11.3.
            > > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
            > nothing.
            > > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it
            up
            > > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other
            stations
            > on
            > > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital
            ones
            > for
            > > KNTV?
            > >
            >
          • xhpspd
            You can also hook up an analog TV and see if 11 comes in OK. If you can t get digital 12, then there must be something in your antenna lead in that is
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 1 12:11 PM
              You can also hook up an analog TV and see if 11 comes in OK. If you
              can't get digital 12, then there must be something in your antenna
              lead in that is blocking VHF.

              Allen



              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a pixalated
              > image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it
              > disappeared from the channel lineup so there is nothing to delete
              now.
              >
              >
              > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-scan
              > or it
              > > will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished.
              This
              > allows
              > > you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles without
              > deleting
              > > prior acquired channels.
              > >
              > > _____
              > >
              > > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
              > SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On Behalf Of y158897571
              > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
              > > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
              Alto
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper degrees
              > > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every
              other
              > > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
              > 11.3.
              > > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
              > nothing.
              > > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it up
              > > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other stations
              > on
              > > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital
              ones
              > for
              > > KNTV?
              > >
              >
            • y158897571
              This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11 come in fine. I am confused,
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 1 12:28 PM
                This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the
                converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11 come
                in fine.

                I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that was
                blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be able to
                get their analog channel 11?

                --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > You can also hook up an analog TV and see if 11 comes in OK. If
                you
                > can't get digital 12, then there must be something in your antenna
                > lead in that is blocking VHF.
                >
                > Allen
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a pixalated
                > > image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it
                > > disappeared from the channel lineup so there is nothing to delete
                > now.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-
                scan
                > > or it
                > > > will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished.
                > This
                > > allows
                > > > you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles without
                > > deleting
                > > > prior acquired channels.
                > > >
                > > > _____
                > > >
                > > > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
                > > SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On Behalf Of y158897571
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
                > > > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                > Alto
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper
                degrees
                > > > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every
                > other
                > > > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
                > > 11.3.
                > > > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
                > > nothing.
                > > > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it
                up
                > > > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other
                stations
                > > on
                > > > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital
                > ones
                > > for
                > > > KNTV?
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • xhpspd
                So, what happens when you manually tune the converter box to channel 12? Allen ... delete ... or ... it
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 1 12:30 PM
                  So, what happens when you manually tune the converter box to channel
                  12?

                  Allen


                  --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the
                  > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11 come
                  > in fine.
                  >
                  > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that was
                  > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be able to
                  > get their analog channel 11?
                  >
                  > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > You can also hook up an analog TV and see if 11 comes in OK. If
                  > you
                  > > can't get digital 12, then there must be something in your antenna
                  > > lead in that is blocking VHF.
                  > >
                  > > Allen
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a pixalated
                  > > > image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it
                  > > > disappeared from the channel lineup so there is nothing to
                  delete
                  > > now.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to re-
                  > scan
                  > > > or it
                  > > > > will over look that channel when the re-scan is accomplished.
                  > > This
                  > > > allows
                  > > > > you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles without
                  > > > deleting
                  > > > > prior acquired channels.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > _____
                  > > > >
                  > > > > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
                  > > > SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > > On Behalf Of y158897571
                  > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
                  > > > > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                  > > Alto
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper
                  > degrees
                  > > > > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every
                  > > other
                  > > > > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2
                  or
                  > > > 11.3.
                  > > > > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
                  > > > nothing.
                  > > > > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick
                  it
                  > up
                  > > > > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other
                  > stations
                  > > > on
                  > > > > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital
                  > > ones
                  > > > for
                  > > > > KNTV?
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • y158897571
                  It will not tune into channel 12, just jumps back to previous channel. ... channel ... come ... was ... to ... If ... antenna ... ... pixalated
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 1 12:38 PM
                    It will not tune into channel 12, just jumps back to previous channel.

                    --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > So, what happens when you manually tune the converter box to
                    channel
                    > 12?
                    >
                    > Allen
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the
                    > > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11
                    come
                    > > in fine.
                    > >
                    > > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that
                    was
                    > > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be able
                    to
                    > > get their analog channel 11?
                    > >
                    > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > You can also hook up an analog TV and see if 11 comes in OK.
                    If
                    > > you
                    > > > can't get digital 12, then there must be something in your
                    antenna
                    > > > lead in that is blocking VHF.
                    > > >
                    > > > Allen
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571"
                    <y158897571@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The converter I have is a RCA DTA800. It did receive a
                    pixalated
                    > > > > image once, then I rescanned it without deleting it and it
                    > > > > disappeared from the channel lineup so there is nothing to
                    > delete
                    > > > now.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank"
                    <rswank@>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On most receivers you must first delete a channel prior to
                    re-
                    > > scan
                    > > > > or it
                    > > > > > will over look that channel when the re-scan is
                    accomplished.
                    > > > This
                    > > > > allows
                    > > > > > you to scan multiple different antenna pointing angles
                    without
                    > > > > deleting
                    > > > > > prior acquired channels.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > _____
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
                    > > > > SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > > > On Behalf Of y158897571
                    > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
                    > > > > > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in
                    Palo
                    > > > Alto
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper
                    > > degrees
                    > > > > > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get
                    every
                    > > > other
                    > > > > > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1,
                    11.2
                    > or
                    > > > > 11.3.
                    > > > > > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but
                    now
                    > > > > nothing.
                    > > > > > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even
                    pick
                    > it
                    > > up
                    > > > > > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other
                    > > stations
                    > > > > on
                    > > > > > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the
                    digital
                    > > > ones
                    > > > > for
                    > > > > > KNTV?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Nick Sayer
                    ... Yes and no. There s nothing fundamentally different about the antenna that would change reception for analog vs. digital, but one issue that I find for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 1 1:25 PM
                      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the
                      > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11 come
                      > in fine.
                      >
                      > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that was
                      > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be able to
                      > get their analog channel 11?
                      >

                      Yes and no.

                      There's nothing fundamentally different about the antenna that would change reception
                      for analog vs. digital, but one issue that I find for folks unaccustomed to DTV is how
                      "good" is a good analog picture. Lots of people have fairly low expectations and give much
                      higher grades to crappy analog pictures.

                      I helped a friend-of-a-friend add a CECB to their analog TV. They have a big log-periodic
                      antenna 50 feet up. Not kidding. Big, big mast. The problem is that the rotator is broken
                      and stuck pointing at Monument Peak. With that antenna, KNTV-DT does not come in at
                      all. I gave them my old CM 3016, put it on a temporary 5 foot mast in the back yard, but
                      pointed it in the right direction, and it gets everything perfectly. I'm going to help them
                      put it on a tripod mount on the roof and take down their old, huge monster one of these
                      weekends. Either that, or I'm going to find out how to troubleshoot that rotator. Not sure
                      which.

                      So, the picture you get from KNTV's analog... How much snow is there? I'm going to
                      presume none, since you're closer to Mt. San Bruno than I am, and I don't have any.

                      Any ghosts?

                      Multipath is the biggest enemy of DTV, and I suspect that you are closer to the western
                      mountains than I am. If you see any ghosts in your picture, then try rotating your antenna
                      to eliminate them.
                    • y158897571
                      ... come ... was ... to ... would change reception ... unaccustomed to DTV is how ... expectations and give much ... have a big log-periodic ... the rotator is
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 1 2:20 PM
                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sayer" <nsayer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without the
                        > > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11
                        come
                        > > in fine.
                        > >
                        > > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that
                        was
                        > > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be able
                        to
                        > > get their analog channel 11?
                        > >
                        >
                        > Yes and no.
                        >
                        > There's nothing fundamentally different about the antenna that
                        would change reception
                        > for analog vs. digital, but one issue that I find for folks
                        unaccustomed to DTV is how
                        > "good" is a good analog picture. Lots of people have fairly low
                        expectations and give much
                        > higher grades to crappy analog pictures.
                        >
                        > I helped a friend-of-a-friend add a CECB to their analog TV. They
                        have a big log-periodic
                        > antenna 50 feet up. Not kidding. Big, big mast. The problem is that
                        the rotator is broken
                        > and stuck pointing at Monument Peak. With that antenna, KNTV-DT
                        does not come in at
                        > all. I gave them my old CM 3016, put it on a temporary 5 foot mast
                        in the back yard, but
                        > pointed it in the right direction, and it gets everything
                        perfectly. I'm going to help them
                        > put it on a tripod mount on the roof and take down their old, huge
                        monster one of these
                        > weekends. Either that, or I'm going to find out how to troubleshoot
                        that rotator. Not sure
                        > which.
                        >
                        > So, the picture you get from KNTV's analog... How much snow is
                        there? I'm going to
                        > presume none, since you're closer to Mt. San Bruno than I am, and I
                        don't have any.
                        >
                        > Any ghosts?
                        >
                        > Multipath is the biggest enemy of DTV, and I suspect that you are
                        closer to the western
                        > mountains than I am. If you see any ghosts in your picture, then
                        try rotating your antenna
                        > to eliminate them.
                        >

                        I don't see any noticeable snow or ghosts on the analog channel 11. I
                        would not say it is perfect but would have thought it was good enough
                        to get at least a weak digital signal. Problem is I don't think there
                        are any other VHF high band channels broadcast from that tower I
                        could compare it to.

                        As far as alignment, I used a compass and the degree readings from
                        tvfool.com (which was 303 degrees from where I am) to align it so
                        that should be ok. I guess it would not hurt to try adjusting it a
                        bit left or right to see if it improves any.
                      • xhpspd
                        Still, what do you get with channel 12? I didn t look at your 330 degree calculation but did you allow for the magnetic vs true north deviation? Allen ... the
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 1 2:34 PM
                          Still, what do you get with channel 12?

                          I didn't look at your 330 degree calculation but did you allow for the
                          magnetic vs true north deviation?

                          Allen


                          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sayer" <nsayer@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without
                          the
                          > > > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel 11
                          > come
                          > > > in fine.
                          > > >
                          > > > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna that
                          > was
                          > > > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be
                          able
                          > to
                          > > > get their analog channel 11?
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > Yes and no.
                          > >
                          > > There's nothing fundamentally different about the antenna that
                          > would change reception
                          > > for analog vs. digital, but one issue that I find for folks
                          > unaccustomed to DTV is how
                          > > "good" is a good analog picture. Lots of people have fairly low
                          > expectations and give much
                          > > higher grades to crappy analog pictures.
                          > >
                          > > I helped a friend-of-a-friend add a CECB to their analog TV. They
                          > have a big log-periodic
                          > > antenna 50 feet up. Not kidding. Big, big mast. The problem is
                          that
                          > the rotator is broken
                          > > and stuck pointing at Monument Peak. With that antenna, KNTV-DT
                          > does not come in at
                          > > all. I gave them my old CM 3016, put it on a temporary 5 foot mast
                          > in the back yard, but
                          > > pointed it in the right direction, and it gets everything
                          > perfectly. I'm going to help them
                          > > put it on a tripod mount on the roof and take down their old, huge
                          > monster one of these
                          > > weekends. Either that, or I'm going to find out how to
                          troubleshoot
                          > that rotator. Not sure
                          > > which.
                          > >
                          > > So, the picture you get from KNTV's analog... How much snow is
                          > there? I'm going to
                          > > presume none, since you're closer to Mt. San Bruno than I am, and
                          I
                          > don't have any.
                          > >
                          > > Any ghosts?
                          > >
                          > > Multipath is the biggest enemy of DTV, and I suspect that you are
                          > closer to the western
                          > > mountains than I am. If you see any ghosts in your picture, then
                          > try rotating your antenna
                          > > to eliminate them.
                          > >
                          >
                          > I don't see any noticeable snow or ghosts on the analog channel 11.
                          I
                          > would not say it is perfect but would have thought it was good
                          enough
                          > to get at least a weak digital signal. Problem is I don't think
                          there
                          > are any other VHF high band channels broadcast from that tower I
                          > could compare it to.
                          >
                          > As far as alignment, I used a compass and the degree readings from
                          > tvfool.com (which was 303 degrees from where I am) to align it so
                          > that should be ok. I guess it would not hurt to try adjusting it a
                          > bit left or right to see if it improves any.
                          >
                        • Stephen H. Fischer
                          These days a rotor might be your best friend. The last two winters, I have had to change the direction my 4-Bay UHF antenna inside my attic was pointed 360
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 1 2:36 PM

                            These days a rotor might be your best friend.

                            The last two winters, I have had to change the direction my 4-Bay UHF antenna inside my attic was pointed 360 Degrees trying to pick up a signal that could be decoded on channel 30.

                            The direction was not constant and all over the compass, many times 180 degrees away from Sutro which "does not compute". Some times rotating the antenna produced no lock in any direction.

                            Right now, it is pointed to the south of Sutro and this has proven to allow reception of 30 and the other desired stations without needing to rotate the antenna all summer. KMTP-DT is not being received but I expect to receive it when I rotate my antenna soon.

                            This winter my antenna will need to be pointed closer to Sutro to get most of the stations but the problem of 30 will make me rotate the antenna often.

                            NCPB's KTEH transmitter will be a backup for KQEDs one and I have a different antenna pointed to the North currently for 50 and 36. It should be pointed to the North East! This antenna is connected to a second antenna connection.

                            I have added a HDHR with two tuners and thus two additional antenna connections. One tuner is reserved for another amplified antenna to try and get a lock on channel 30 this winter.

                            My VHF antenna inside my attic, installed ~1972, is tied up with string so of course it cannot rotate. It provided a good picture for all the VHF analog stations and does well on 12.

                            But I had difficulty with my HD Radio until I moved the splitter for it directly to the VHF antenna feed. Two many splitters in series was cutting the signal down too much.

                            The VHF antenna does not have a amplifier like the UHF antenna does. I have noted that the signal strength reported by HDHR is just strong enough for 12. I am thinking about adding a amplifier to the VHF antenna but going up into the attic will be a problem for me.

                            -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Pointing a directional antenna directly at Bruno may not be the best option for you. Rotate it all around the compass to try and get a lock.

                            Consider getting a Zenith DTT901 with another convert box coupon. If a friend has one, borrow it. Or the Insignia equivalent.

                            You may need the best tuner available!

                            Connect directly to the VHF antenna with no splitters and good cable, RG6 recommended.

                            To stay OTA will perhaps require some more money to be spent, but compared to the cost of cable for a year or two, perhaps a better investment.

                            SHF

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
                            Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto

                            I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper degrees
                            towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every other
                            digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or 11.3.
                            Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now nothing.
                            When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it up
                            anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other stations on
                            that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital ones for
                            KNTV?

                          • y158897571
                            With this converter box when you enter a channel number that it does not receive any signal for it will try for less than a second to tune into it and then if
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 1 2:44 PM
                              With this converter box when you enter a channel number that it does
                              not receive any signal for it will try for less than a second to tune
                              into it and then if it does not get it it goes back to the previous
                              channel so what one sees when one does this is like the original
                              channel just got reentered.

                              It is 303 degrees from here and yes I used the magnetic north reading
                              since I am using a compass to align it.

                              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "xhpspd" <allen.edwards@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Still, what do you get with channel 12?
                              >
                              > I didn't look at your 330 degree calculation but did you allow for
                              the
                              > magnetic vs true north deviation?
                              >
                              > Allen
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571" <y158897571@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sayer" <nsayer@>
                              wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "y158897571"
                              <y158897571@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This is an analog TV thus the use of a converter box. Without
                              > the
                              > > > > converter box all the analog VHF stations, including channel
                              11
                              > > come
                              > > > > in fine.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I am confused, if there was something wrong with my antenna
                              that
                              > > was
                              > > > > blocking this stations VHF digital channel wouldn't I not be
                              > able
                              > > to
                              > > > > get their analog channel 11?
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes and no.
                              > > >
                              > > > There's nothing fundamentally different about the antenna that
                              > > would change reception
                              > > > for analog vs. digital, but one issue that I find for folks
                              > > unaccustomed to DTV is how
                              > > > "good" is a good analog picture. Lots of people have fairly low
                              > > expectations and give much
                              > > > higher grades to crappy analog pictures.
                              > > >
                              > > > I helped a friend-of-a-friend add a CECB to their analog TV.
                              They
                              > > have a big log-periodic
                              > > > antenna 50 feet up. Not kidding. Big, big mast. The problem is
                              > that
                              > > the rotator is broken
                              > > > and stuck pointing at Monument Peak. With that antenna, KNTV-DT
                              > > does not come in at
                              > > > all. I gave them my old CM 3016, put it on a temporary 5 foot
                              mast
                              > > in the back yard, but
                              > > > pointed it in the right direction, and it gets everything
                              > > perfectly. I'm going to help them
                              > > > put it on a tripod mount on the roof and take down their old,
                              huge
                              > > monster one of these
                              > > > weekends. Either that, or I'm going to find out how to
                              > troubleshoot
                              > > that rotator. Not sure
                              > > > which.
                              > > >
                              > > > So, the picture you get from KNTV's analog... How much snow is
                              > > there? I'm going to
                              > > > presume none, since you're closer to Mt. San Bruno than I am,
                              and
                              > I
                              > > don't have any.
                              > > >
                              > > > Any ghosts?
                              > > >
                              > > > Multipath is the biggest enemy of DTV, and I suspect that you
                              are
                              > > closer to the western
                              > > > mountains than I am. If you see any ghosts in your picture,
                              then
                              > > try rotating your antenna
                              > > > to eliminate them.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > I don't see any noticeable snow or ghosts on the analog channel
                              11.
                              > I
                              > > would not say it is perfect but would have thought it was good
                              > enough
                              > > to get at least a weak digital signal. Problem is I don't think
                              > there
                              > > are any other VHF high band channels broadcast from that tower I
                              > > could compare it to.
                              > >
                              > > As far as alignment, I used a compass and the degree readings
                              from
                              > > tvfool.com (which was 303 degrees from where I am) to align it so
                              > > that should be ok. I guess it would not hurt to try adjusting it
                              a
                              > > bit left or right to see if it improves any.
                              > >
                              >
                            • y158897571
                              Thanks for the suggestions. I ll start by trying some different alignments. ... UHF antenna inside my attic was pointed 360 Degrees trying to pick up a signal
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 1 3:12 PM
                                Thanks for the suggestions. I'll start by trying some different
                                alignments.

                                --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen H. Fischer"
                                <SFischer1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > These days a rotor might be your best friend.
                                >
                                > The last two winters, I have had to change the direction my 4-Bay
                                UHF antenna inside my attic was pointed 360 Degrees trying to pick up
                                a signal that could be decoded on channel 30.
                                >
                                > The direction was not constant and all over the compass, many times
                                180 degrees away from Sutro which "does not compute". Some times
                                rotating the antenna produced no lock in any direction.
                                >
                                > Right now, it is pointed to the south of Sutro and this has proven
                                to allow reception of 30 and the other desired stations without
                                needing to rotate the antenna all summer. KMTP-DT is not being
                                received but I expect to receive it when I rotate my antenna soon.
                                >
                                > This winter my antenna will need to be pointed closer to Sutro to
                                get most of the stations but the problem of 30 will make me rotate
                                the antenna often.
                                >
                                > NCPB's KTEH transmitter will be a backup for KQEDs one and I have a
                                different antenna pointed to the North currently for 50 and 36. It
                                should be pointed to the North East! This antenna is connected to a
                                second antenna connection.
                                >
                                > I have added a HDHR with two tuners and thus two additional antenna
                                connections. One tuner is reserved for another amplified antenna to
                                try and get a lock on channel 30 this winter.
                                >
                                > My VHF antenna inside my attic, installed ~1972, is tied up with
                                string so of course it cannot rotate. It provided a good picture for
                                all the VHF analog stations and does well on 12.
                                >
                                > But I had difficulty with my HD Radio until I moved the splitter
                                for it directly to the VHF antenna feed. Two many splitters in series
                                was cutting the signal down too much.
                                >
                                > The VHF antenna does not have a amplifier like the UHF antenna
                                does. I have noted that the signal strength reported by HDHR is just
                                strong enough for 12. I am thinking about adding a amplifier to the
                                VHF antenna but going up into the attic will be a problem for me.
                                >
                                > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                ---------------
                                >
                                > Pointing a directional antenna directly at Bruno may not be the
                                best option for you. Rotate it all around the compass to try and get
                                a lock.
                                >
                                > Consider getting a Zenith DTT901 with another convert box coupon.
                                If a friend has one, borrow it. Or the Insignia equivalent. You may
                                need the best tuner available!
                                >
                                > Connect directly to the VHF antenna with no splitters and good
                                cable, RG6 recommended.
                                >
                                > To stay OTA will perhaps require some more money to be spent, but
                                compared to the cost of cable for a year or two, perhaps a better
                                investment.
                                >
                                > SHF
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                >
                                > From: y158897571
                                > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:17 PM
                                > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                                Alto
                                >
                                >
                                > I have a roof VHF/UHF antenna I have aligned at the proper
                                degrees
                                > towards San Bruno. I get the analog signal fine and get every
                                other
                                > digital signal possible including 26 & 65 but not 11.1, 11.2 or
                                11.3.
                                > Couple times I got a weak signal and pixelated image but now
                                nothing.
                                > When I do a rescan on my converter box it does not even pick it
                                up
                                > anymore. Anyone have any ideas on why I can get the other
                                stations on
                                > that tower fine and the analog signal fine but not the digital
                                ones for
                                > KNTV?
                                >
                                >
                                > .
                                >
                              • fanemec
                                I notice the same thing today in the hills above Saratoga. I used to get them just fine, but now none. I have good signal strength with my HD TiVo, but I was
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 2 1:42 AM
                                  I notice the same thing today in the hills above Saratoga. I used to
                                  get them just fine, but now none. I have good signal strength with my
                                  HD TiVo, but I was informed they added 11-3 to the lineup, so I'm
                                  rescanning the channels. That fixed it, now I'm good again.
                                • Swank, Richard (NBC Universal, KNTV)
                                  I m including an article regarding DTV reception that everyone might find interesting or I hope so. A Downside to Digital TV By ROY FURCHGOTT Published: April
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 2 2:59 AM
                                    I'm including an article regarding DTV reception that everyone might find interesting or I hope so.
                                     
                                    A Downside to Digital TV
                                    By ROY FURCHGOTT
                                    Published: April 24, 2008

                                    MIKE DUFFY wanted to be ready to switch from over-the-air analog TV broadcasts to an all-digital signal that will occur across the country next February. His Chattanooga, Tenn., hilltop home was nearly in the line of sight to a nearby TV station antenna and he had never had a problem getting analog TV signals.

                                    He assumed he would have no difficulty with digital signals. So he hooked up a digital converter box to his old TV and attached the rabbit-ears antenna he had always used. His new digital picture was sharp and detailed — for as long as he remained sitting in his chair.

                                    When he stood up the picture would deteriorate into blocky images or disappear completely. “It did seem to be affected by the position of people in the room.” he said.

                                    Mr. Duffy had discovered that over-the-air digital signals behave differently from analog signals. That won’t matter to most Americans come the switchover. They either own a digital TV or get their signal through cable or satellite. But 17 million households have an analog TV that receives its signals over the air — 13 million of them use a rabbit-ear antenna. That means that not only do they have to buy a digital converter box; they may have to buy a new antenna. An additional 18 million homes have TVs that get over-the-air signals, but the residents have other TVs that are connected to cable or satellite services.

                                    Estimates from a computer simulation run by Centris, a market research firm in Los Angeles, found that more than nine million households that now get programming over the air could lose one or more stations they now receive. Although digital broadcasts will provide a superior picture and more channels than old analog broadcasts, digital reception is more easily blocked by hills, trees and buildings than analog reception. Furthermore, analog degrades gradually, with the picture displaying snow or ghosts (image echoes) as the signal becomes weaker. But the digital signal stays uniformly crisp until the signal gets weak; then the picture suddenly drops out, a phenomenon that engineers call the “cliff effect.”

                                    An antenna is a simple device, an assembly of metal rods that turns electromagnetic waves into electrical currents. They come in various sizes and styles because the length of the rods are designed to catch particular frequencies.

                                    “The bigger the antenna, the more bars, the better at receiving a weaker signal,” said Dave Wilson, director of technology and standards for the Consumer Electronics Association. “The main reason for most of the different shapes is that many times you want the antenna to not just convert the electrical field, but to amplify a weak signal, or ignore an interfering signal.”

                                    For a simple device, the antenna has generated a lot of misinformation. For example, you may hear about digital antenna or HDTV antenna. But you do not need an HDTV antenna to get digital high-definition signals. Digital HD is broadcast on the same UHF and VHF frequencies as analog TV. The antennas need not be different. A special antenna is not required to receive the new channels from a station. If your antenna gets the local PBS channel, for example, it will get all the digital subchannels.

                                    For those locations suffering the cliff effect, a new antenna is needed to pull the signals in. For TV reception on UHF and VHF frequencies, an indoor antenna like rabbit ears may work if the signal is very strong. A weaker signal may require a disc-shaped outdoor antenna that receives signals from all directions. An even weaker signal will require a V-shaped outdoor antenna, perhaps with a motor to point it directly at each broadcast signal tower.

                                    Before buying an antenna, buy the converter box and attach it to your old antenna and to your TV. You may get all of the stations you want. (The boxes are available at electronics stores. You can get a coupon for a $40 discount at dtv2009.gov, but don’t wait too long; there is a limited supply of them.)

                                    As Mr. Duffy found, picking the right antenna can require some experimentation. After the rabbit ears, he tried different receivers and antennas in different locations. He graduated from a $25 indoor antenna that didn’t solve the problem to a $30 outdoor antenna with a 40-inch boom mounted on the garage.

                                    Reception is now good, he said, but not perfect, which has him thinking about a rotating antenna or a signal amplifier. The Consumer Electronics Association and the National Association of Broadcasters sponsor a Web site to help people through the process, antennaweb.org. The site uses software that determines which aerial you need based on your location relative to station antennas. It also advises you where to point it.

                                    Also check antennaweb.org to make sure your antenna suits the post-February frequency. Some digital stations that are now available may move from UHF to VHF after February 2009. At the site, click on the “choose antenna” button, then fill in your street address. You don’t have to fill out the name and phone number fields to get accurate results, and if you don’t want to receive marketing materials or surveys, make sure to uncheck the permission boxes below your address.

                                    You can get a more exact recommendation if you get your latitude and longitude from a G.P.S. device. Or you can look it up on Google Earth (earth.google.com) or Virtual Earth microsoft.com/virtualearth). Enter that data by clicking on the word “options” near the bottom of the address screen.

                                    The site organizes types of antenna by a color code, from yellow for low-strength multidirectional antennas to violet for large directional antennas that may also need an amplifier to pull in weak signals. The electronics association is encouraging antenna makers to use the color code as a guide on their packaging.

                                    It is easier finding the right spot for an antenna. “The best placement is outside on a mast as high up as possible,” said Mr. Wilson. Make sure the antenna is properly grounded. (Another suggestion: make the switch before the February changeover; it is not good to walk on an icy roof.)

                                    Not a do-it-yourselfer? Antennaweb links to techhome.com, which can locate an installer in your area. But buyer beware, though the installers are on the association Web site, they aren’t required to be certified, bonded or experienced to get on the list.

                                    If the available antenna placement is less than perfect, sometimes a signal amplifier can boost a signal sufficiently to make up the difference. An amplifier, which sells for about $60, is also useful if the cable connecting the TV and the antenna is longer than 20 feet, or if more than one TV is using the same antenna through a splitter, which weakens the signal.

                                    But you can get too much of a good thing. “More signal is not always helpful. It is possible to overload the receiver with signal so it won’t work,” Mr. Wilson said. Also make sure the amplifier boosts the specific frequency range you want amplified, he said.

                                    Some homeowner associations may have restrictions against rooftop antennas, but if the neighbors object you can quote Section 207 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. The act broadly says that no one can keep an owner or renter from the “installation, maintenance or use” of an antenna. In rare cases, the kind of antenna and where it is placed may be restricted.

                                    If the neighbors never talk to you again, be content that at least you’ll have your TV with its bright and clear digital signal — whether you stay in your chair or not.

                                     

                                  • Louis R Briones
                                    Reception issues seem to be the problem when one s live in an apartment or Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter site.2. then
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 2 10:14 AM
                                      Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an apartment or
                                      Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter site.2.
                                      then there is the cost of the three providers raising their prices, making
                                      it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to have any
                                      kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given this fact?
                                      It would seem that the government would have found a better way with this
                                      reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier solution, finding
                                      something in the law enforcing the apartment associations alike to install
                                      some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed income
                                      would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air reception of the
                                      local channels within their given area.
                                    • Nick Sayer
                                      ... That s the big one. A lot of guest bedroom and kids room TVs are going to be the big losers come February. ... No it isn t. The photons behave the same
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 2 11:00 AM
                                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Swank, Richard (NBC Universal, KNTV)"
                                        <Richard.Swank@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > An additional
                                        > 18 million homes have TVs that get over-the-air signals, but the
                                        > residents have other TVs that are connected to cable or satellite
                                        > services.

                                        That's the big one. A lot of guest bedroom and kids' room TVs are going to be the big
                                        losers come February.

                                        > Although digital broadcasts will provide a superior picture
                                        > and more channels than old analog broadcasts, digital reception is more
                                        > easily blocked by hills, trees and buildings than analog reception.

                                        No it isn't. The photons behave the same regardless of how they're modulated. It's just
                                        that...

                                        > Furthermore, analog degrades gradually, with the picture displaying snow
                                        > or ghosts (image echoes) as the signal becomes weaker. But the digital
                                        > signal stays uniformly crisp until the signal gets weak; then the
                                        > picture suddenly drops out, a phenomenon that engineers call the "cliff
                                        > effect."

                                        Ding ding ding.

                                        Add to this the fact that a lot of OTA viewers are rather *accustomed* to imperfect analog
                                        reception, which won't be good enough for a digital lock. Those folks will be blown away
                                        by digital picture quality, but will complain bitterly about how comparatively difficult it is
                                        to get a digital lock.

                                        Of course, historically, TV was never intended to be received in most cases with indoor
                                        antennas. Everybody has heard or seen a joke about playing "antenna twister" with a pair
                                        of rabbit ears to try find the magic set of reflections to optimize the picture. "Now try it
                                        with your left arm holding the antenna at a 45 degree angle and your right hand on your
                                        left butt-cheek."

                                        Bah.

                                        > As Mr. Duffy found, picking the right antenna can require some
                                        > experimentation. After the rabbit ears, he tried different receivers and
                                        > antennas in different locations. He graduated from a $25 indoor antenna
                                        > that didn't solve the problem to a $30 outdoor antenna with a 40-inch
                                        > boom mounted on the garage.

                                        Color me shocked. :)

                                        >
                                        > Some homeowner associations may have restrictions against rooftop
                                        > antennas, but if the neighbors object you can quote Section 207 of the
                                        > Telecommunications Act of 1996. The act broadly says that no one can
                                        > keep an owner or renter from the "installation, maintenance or use" of
                                        > an antenna. In rare cases, the kind of antenna and where it is placed
                                        > may be restricted.

                                        This is the big bit of good news. Homeowner's associations and deed restrictions for years
                                        have been a big problem. Cable companies used to make deals with property developers to
                                        pre-wire the tracts for cable for free in return for antenna restrictions on the properties.
                                        With the advent of digital broadcasting, it's particularly important that that trend was cut
                                        off at the knees.
                                      • Nick Sayer
                                        ... Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner s associations cannot prevent you from doing so. Google FCC OTARD . ... Surprise! They did!
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 2 11:02 AM
                                          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an apartment or
                                          > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter site.2.
                                          > then there is the cost of the three providers raising their prices, making
                                          > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to have any
                                          > kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given this fact?

                                          Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot prevent you from doing
                                          so. Google "FCC OTARD".

                                          > It would seem that the government would have found a better way with this
                                          > reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier solution, finding
                                          > something in the law enforcing the apartment associations alike to install
                                          > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed income
                                          > would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air reception of the
                                          > local channels within their given area.

                                          Surprise! They did!
                                        • Stephen H. Fischer
                                          ... They are within their rights to control what is attached to common property. I have seen several dishes moved around because of this. Or just disappear.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 2 12:08 PM
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: Nick Sayer
                                            > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                            >Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an apartment
                                            >> or
                                            >> Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter site.2.
                                            >> then there is the cost of the three providers raising their prices,
                                            >> making
                                            >> it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to have any
                                            >> kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given this fact?
                                            >
                                            > Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot prevent
                                            > you from doing
                                            > so. Google "FCC OTARD".

                                            They are within their rights to control what is attached to common property.

                                            I have seen several dishes moved around because of this. Or just disappear.

                                            But then, several are attached in places that are rare looking like the HOC
                                            has worked to find a better place and finally accepted the attachment to
                                            their property.

                                            I put my VHF and UHF antennas inside my attic ~1972 because of the
                                            restrictions.

                                            >
                                            >> It would seem that the government would have found a better way with this
                                            >> reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier solution, finding
                                            >> something in the law enforcing the apartment associations alike to
                                            >> install
                                            >> some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed income
                                            >> would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air reception of the
                                            >> local channels within their given area.
                                            >
                                            > Surprise! They did!

                                            Our world is not being built for persons with low incomes.

                                            Especially here in Silicon Valley.


                                            I shutter at many of the TV commercials, three services for less than $100.

                                            That's $1,200 per year.

                                            I spent ~ $500 buying equipment for the MetoFI "free" Internet which
                                            closed down recently. I could not get a reliable connection as I was
                                            equal distance from three light poles. I really tried hard. The available
                                            equipment only at the end started to be good enough, but even a loan
                                            from MetroFI of the "final" equipment solution did not work for me.

                                            I have spent almost $2,000 to receive "free" OTA DTV so far.

                                            This winter I will have difficulty receiving KQED-DT and also
                                            KTVU-DT at times based on the last two winters.

                                            And when it rains, you do not want to know.

                                            I am trying too hard again. But then, if you could know how
                                            extremely well my HTPC works during the summer, you would
                                            understand why I am continuing.

                                            SHF
                                          • Richard Swank
                                            Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or safety issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or county official to declare
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 2 3:21 PM

                                              Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or safety issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or county official to declare that.  It might require or be best to have a building permit if everyone gets to fighting over the installation.  I believe there is a restriction on tower height or a height that a permit is required if exceeded.  I’m no expert on this however,


                                              From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Nick Sayer
                                              Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                              To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo Alto

                                               

                                              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@ ...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an apartment or
                                              > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter site.2.
                                              > then there is the cost of the three providers raising their prices, making
                                              > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to have any
                                              > kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given this fact?

                                              Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot prevent you from doing
                                              so. Google "FCC OTARD".

                                              > It would seem that the government would have found a better way with this
                                              > reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier solution, finding
                                              > something in the law enforcing the apartment associations alike to install
                                              > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed income
                                              > would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air reception of the
                                              > local channels within their given area.

                                              Surprise! They did!

                                            • Herold Finkelmeyer
                                              I ve been reading this thread with interest. It seems to me that the FCC rule protects home-owners (and even some home-renters) who want to put up an antenna,
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 2 3:53 PM
                                                I've been reading this thread with interest.

                                                It seems to me that the FCC rule protects home-owners (and even some
                                                home-renters) who want to put up an antenna, but I fail to see what it
                                                does for people in my situation. I live in an apartment; the only space
                                                that isn't shared is inside my apartment. So where am I to put up a
                                                decent antenna? I suppose I could put one up inside, but that would
                                                take up half my apartment.

                                                Cable and satellite aren't reasonable options, either. I watch so
                                                little TV regularly, I'm not going to pay $15/mo (or more) just to
                                                watch a dozen episodes of the Simpsons each year.

                                                I really doubt the FCC rule that's been mentioned would let me climb on
                                                the roof of the apartment building I'm in to put up an antenna. And the
                                                closest thing I have to a balcony is the common walkway in front.

                                                Anyone have any good suggestions besides downloading the shows via p2p
                                                (which is basically stealing)?





                                                On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:21:56 -0700
                                                "Richard Swank" <rswank@...> wrote:

                                                > Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or
                                                > safety issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or
                                                > county official to declare that. It might require or be best to have
                                                > a building permit if everyone gets to fighting over the
                                                > installation. I believe there is a restriction on tower height or a
                                                > height that a permit is required if exceeded. I'm no expert on this
                                                > however,
                                                >
                                                > _____
                                                >
                                                > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                > [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nick Sayer
                                                > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                                > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                                                > Alto
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                > yahoogroups.com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an
                                                > > apartment or
                                                >
                                                > > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter
                                                > > site.2. then there is the cost of the three providers raising their
                                                > > prices, making
                                                >
                                                > > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to
                                                > > have any kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given
                                                > > this fact?
                                                >
                                                > Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot
                                                > prevent you from doing
                                                > so. Google "FCC OTARD".
                                                >
                                                > > It would seem that the government would have found a better way
                                                > > with this reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier
                                                > > solution, finding something in the law enforcing the apartment
                                                > > associations alike to install
                                                >
                                                > > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed
                                                > > income would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air
                                                > > reception of the local channels within their given area.
                                                >
                                                > Surprise! They did!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Richard Swank
                                                Most broadcasters stream the programs to their web site or someplace else reachable via a link on that site. For NBC programs go to nbc11.com and find the
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Oct 2 4:35 PM

                                                  Most broadcasters stream the programs to their web site or someplace else reachable via a link on that site.  For NBC programs go to nbc11.com and find the link to streamed programs.  Nbc.com likewise has this feature.

                                                   

                                                  You are correct this FCC ruling bans home owners associations from disallowing unit owner’s a means of getting safe television off-air.  Renters are a different category I believe.  To put it bluntly I believe they felt if you were unhappy with your options you could move to a place that would suit your needs and economy.  If your landlord isn’t willing to supply you an economical means of off-air television that is probably the only choice you have unless an indoor antenna works for you.


                                                  From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Herold Finkelmeyer
                                                  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 3:54 PM
                                                  To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Antenna Rules

                                                   

                                                  I've been reading this thread with interest.

                                                  It seems to me that the FCC rule protects home-owners (and even some
                                                  home-renters) who want to put up an antenna, but I fail to see what it
                                                  does for people in my situation. I live in an apartment; the only space
                                                  that isn't shared is inside my apartment. So where am I to put up a
                                                  decent antenna? I suppose I could put one up inside, but that would
                                                  take up half my apartment.

                                                  Cable and satellite aren't reasonable options, either. I watch so
                                                  little TV regularly, I'm not going to pay $15/mo (or more) just to
                                                  watch a dozen episodes of the Simpsons each year.

                                                  I really doubt the FCC rule that's been mentioned would let me climb on
                                                  the roof of the apartment building I'm in to put up an antenna. And the
                                                  closest thing I have to a balcony is the common walkway in front.

                                                  Anyone have any good suggestions besides downloading the shows via p2p
                                                  (which is basically stealing)?

                                                  On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:21:56 -0700
                                                  "Richard Swank" <rswank@razzolink. com> wrote:

                                                  > Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or
                                                  > safety issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or
                                                  > county official to declare that. It might require or be best to have
                                                  > a building permit if everyone gets to fighting over the
                                                  > installation. I believe there is a restriction on tower height or a
                                                  > height that a permit is required if exceeded. I'm no expert on this
                                                  > however,
                                                  >
                                                  > _____
                                                  >
                                                  > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com]
                                                  On Behalf Of Nick Sayer
                                                  > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                                  > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                                                  > Alto
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV- in-SFbay% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                                  > yahoogroups. com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@ ...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an
                                                  > > apartment or
                                                  >
                                                  > > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter
                                                  > > site.2. then there is the cost of the three providers raising their
                                                  > > prices, making
                                                  >
                                                  > > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to
                                                  > > have any kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given
                                                  > > this fact?
                                                  >
                                                  > Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot
                                                  > prevent you from doing
                                                  > so. Google "FCC OTARD".
                                                  >
                                                  > > It would seem that the government would have found a better way
                                                  > > with this reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier
                                                  > > solution, finding something in the law enforcing the apartment
                                                  > > associations alike to install
                                                  >
                                                  > > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed
                                                  > > income would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air
                                                  > > reception of the local channels within their given area.
                                                  >
                                                  > Surprise! They did!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                • Louis R Briones
                                                  What I find that is a bother to me is the fact the small dish providers, along with Cable providers have the right to mislead the general public as to the ways
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Oct 2 4:52 PM
                                                    What I find that is a bother to me is the fact the small dish providers,
                                                    along with Cable providers have the right to mislead the general public as
                                                    to the ways they are delivering the local broadcast TV stations, depending
                                                    on the area that one lives, knowing very well the the local broadcast
                                                    television is not being directly sent to one's receiving device whatever it
                                                    might be. I say this as mention by the following message below
                                                    "C-Band quality is superior to any other viable delivery method. Almost all
                                                    Cable, DirecTV, and Dish Net channels originate from the C-Band Backbone,
                                                    the very same C-Band Master Broadcasts we enjoy first generation. Little
                                                    dish and cable bandwidth limitations force providers to compress "the crap"
                                                    out of the unadulterated C-Band master broadcast, before sending them to
                                                    their "Pizza Pan" Satellites, and cable headends. Over compression causes
                                                    channels to become fuzzy and colors are washed out. They save by delivering
                                                    compressed "sardine TV". Why pay more for over compressed 3rd generation
                                                    washed out TV?"
                                                    Then you keep hearing in the news of the prices going up three times a year
                                                    with false advertisement of Turbo boost HD. What is the meaning of Turbo
                                                    boost HD, when it doesn't not make any different as to the way the small
                                                    dish receiver is performing in the first place. The quality of the picture
                                                    and the sound is still going to remain the same, with a 2 to 3 second delay,
                                                    by the time the signal reaches one's home receiving device. then there is
                                                    the fact of the poor quality with the sound and knowing with these small
                                                    dish providers and your local cable operator, can not seem to give you as to
                                                    what audio bit rate they are using.
                                                    What I find interesting is that your local Network TV stations has a much
                                                    better quality with respect to the picture and sound and also with their
                                                    audio bit rate having a much higher quality.
                                                    I agree with the person who has posted the fact as his sound reason for not
                                                    paying for a broadcast TV stations when the local TV stations is free in the
                                                    first place, and it is not right for one being forced to pay to view a local
                                                    broadcast TV station also outline here in this message.
                                                  • Richard Swank
                                                    If all you watch is local television I would suggest never ever go third party delivery. There are however 400+ non local television channels that are
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Oct 2 8:02 PM

                                                      If all you watch is local television I would suggest never ever go third party delivery.  There are however 400+ non local television channels that are available via the third party delivery method and not available via local broadcasters.  The choice is yours.  Of course if you spend enough time watching television to make the cost a break even point I’d suggest you get a hobby as it might be a good idea.

                                                       

                                                      Third party delivery is not a quality issue as far as I’m concerned.  It’s in fact a decision is local broadcast content enough to satisfy the entertainment need?  By the way I’ve been a local broadcaster by occupation for 40+ years.

                                                       


                                                      From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Louis R Briones
                                                      Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 4:53 PM
                                                      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Antenna Rules

                                                       

                                                      What I find that is a bother to me is the fact the small dish providers,
                                                      along with Cable providers have the right to mislead the general public as
                                                      to the ways they are delivering the local broadcast TV stations, depending
                                                      on the area that one lives, knowing very well the the local broadcast
                                                      television is not being directly sent to one's receiving device whatever it
                                                      might be. I say this as mention by the following message below
                                                      "C-Band quality is superior to any other viable delivery method. Almost all
                                                      Cable, DirecTV, and Dish Net channels originate from the C-Band Backbone,
                                                      the very same C-Band Master Broadcasts we enjoy first generation. Little
                                                      dish and cable bandwidth limitations force providers to compress "the crap"
                                                      out of the unadulterated C-Band master broadcast, before sending them to
                                                      their "Pizza Pan" Satellites, and cable headends. Over compression causes
                                                      channels to become fuzzy and colors are washed out. They save by delivering
                                                      compressed "sardine TV". Why pay more for over compressed 3rd generation
                                                      washed out TV?"
                                                      Then you keep hearing in the news of the prices going up three times a year
                                                      with false advertisement of Turbo boost HD. What is the meaning of Turbo
                                                      boost HD, when it doesn't not make any different as to the way the small
                                                      dish receiver is performing in the first place. The quality of the picture
                                                      and the sound is still going to remain the same, with a 2 to 3 second delay,
                                                      by the time the signal reaches one's home receiving device. then there is
                                                      the fact of the poor quality with the sound and knowing with these small
                                                      dish providers and your local cable operator, can not seem to give you as to
                                                      what audio bit rate they are using.
                                                      What I find interesting is that your local Network TV stations has a much
                                                      better quality with respect to the picture and sound and also with their
                                                      audio bit rate having a much higher quality.
                                                      I agree with the person who has posted the fact as his sound reason for not
                                                      paying for a broadcast TV stations when the local TV stations is free in the
                                                      first place, and it is not right for one being forced to pay to view a local
                                                      broadcast TV station also outline here in this message.

                                                    • xhpspd
                                                      http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html This is a really nice rule. When I fought my city years ago regarding a long wire HAM antenna, contract law was not
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Oct 3 8:51 AM
                                                        http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

                                                        This is a really nice rule. When I fought my city years ago regarding
                                                        a long wire HAM antenna, contract law was not preempted but I see now
                                                        that it is. I won, btw. Good news for OTA viewers.

                                                        You can only put the antenna up in areas you control, however, so the
                                                        roof of your apartment building are still off limits. That would not
                                                        stop me from going up and installing one and waiting to see if anyone
                                                        complained, however... assuming I was prepared to part with the
                                                        antenna if someone took it down.

                                                        Allen


                                                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or
                                                        safety
                                                        > issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or county
                                                        official
                                                        > to declare that. It might require or be best to have a building
                                                        permit if
                                                        > everyone gets to fighting over the installation. I believe there is
                                                        a
                                                        > restriction on tower height or a height that a permit is required if
                                                        > exceeded. I'm no expert on this however,
                                                        >
                                                        > _____
                                                        >
                                                        > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HDTV-in-
                                                        SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
                                                        > On Behalf Of Nick Sayer
                                                        > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                                        > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                                                        Alto
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        > yahoogroups.com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an
                                                        apartment or
                                                        >
                                                        > > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter
                                                        site.2.
                                                        > > then there is the cost of the three providers raising their
                                                        prices, making
                                                        >
                                                        > > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to
                                                        have any
                                                        > > kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given this fact?
                                                        >
                                                        > Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot
                                                        prevent
                                                        > you from doing
                                                        > so. Google "FCC OTARD".
                                                        >
                                                        > > It would seem that the government would have found a better way
                                                        with this
                                                        > > reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier solution,
                                                        finding
                                                        > > something in the law enforcing the apartment associations alike to
                                                        install
                                                        >
                                                        > > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed
                                                        income
                                                        > > would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air reception
                                                        of the
                                                        > > local channels within their given area.
                                                        >
                                                        > Surprise! They did!
                                                        >
                                                      • Allen Edwards
                                                        I would suggest you ask if you can put an antenna on the roof. If a UHF antenna gets the stations you want, they really are not that large. A friend is using
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Oct 3 11:21 PM
                                                          I would suggest you ask if you can put an antenna on the roof. If a
                                                          UHF antenna gets the stations you want, they really are not that
                                                          large. A friend is using an old one of mine and it is about a foot
                                                          long, an inch high, and less than a foot wide. You would mount it to
                                                          a pole on a block of wood and set it on a flat roof of an apartment
                                                          building. You could bring the coax in through a crack in an open
                                                          window. Perhaps a piece of wood with a hole in it could fill the
                                                          otherwise open window. Me, I would just put the thing up there but
                                                          asking is probably the right way to do it.

                                                          Allen


                                                          On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Herold Finkelmeyer <herry@...> wrote:
                                                          > I've been reading this thread with interest.
                                                          >
                                                          > It seems to me that the FCC rule protects home-owners (and even some
                                                          > home-renters) who want to put up an antenna, but I fail to see what it
                                                          > does for people in my situation. I live in an apartment; the only space
                                                          > that isn't shared is inside my apartment. So where am I to put up a
                                                          > decent antenna? I suppose I could put one up inside, but that would
                                                          > take up half my apartment.
                                                          >
                                                          > Cable and satellite aren't reasonable options, either. I watch so
                                                          > little TV regularly, I'm not going to pay $15/mo (or more) just to
                                                          > watch a dozen episodes of the Simpsons each year.
                                                          >
                                                          > I really doubt the FCC rule that's been mentioned would let me climb on
                                                          > the roof of the apartment building I'm in to put up an antenna. And the
                                                          > closest thing I have to a balcony is the common walkway in front.
                                                          >
                                                          > Anyone have any good suggestions besides downloading the shows via p2p
                                                          > (which is basically stealing)?
                                                          >
                                                          > On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:21:56 -0700
                                                          > "Richard Swank" <rswank@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >> Only if the antenna installation is considered a public health or
                                                          >> safety issue can it be prevented and that would require a city or
                                                          >> county official to declare that. It might require or be best to have
                                                          >> a building permit if everyone gets to fighting over the
                                                          >> installation. I believe there is a restriction on tower height or a
                                                          >> height that a permit is required if exceeded. I'm no expert on this
                                                          >> however,
                                                          >>
                                                          >> _____
                                                          >>
                                                          >> From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >> [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nick Sayer
                                                          >> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 11:02 AM
                                                          >> To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >> Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: Can't get KNTV digital signal in Palo
                                                          >> Alto
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >> yahoogroups.com, "Louis R Briones" <cbandman1949@...> wrote:
                                                          >> >
                                                          >> > Reception issues seem to be the problem when one's live in an
                                                          >> > apartment or
                                                          >>
                                                          >> > Home owner, when 20-30 miles away from the television transmitter
                                                          >> > site.2. then there is the cost of the three providers raising their
                                                          >> > prices, making
                                                          >>
                                                          >> > it very difficult for those that are on a fixed income unable to
                                                          >> > have any kind of service. What is one to do in this case, given
                                                          >> > this fact?
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Put up an antenna! Landlords and home owner's associations cannot
                                                          >> prevent you from doing
                                                          >> so. Google "FCC OTARD".
                                                          >>
                                                          >> > It would seem that the government would have found a better way
                                                          >> > with this reception issues with the hope of finding a much easier
                                                          >> > solution, finding something in the law enforcing the apartment
                                                          >> > associations alike to install
                                                          >>
                                                          >> > some kind of receiving antenna so that folks that are on a fixed
                                                          >> > income would have the full benefits to enjoy their over the air
                                                          >> > reception of the local channels within their given area.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Surprise! They did!
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.