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RE: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Is it just me?

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  • Richard Swank
    First experience I had in electronics was that new doesn t make it reliable. Just a comment to consider. Interestingly the fires and resultant smoke in the air
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 11, 2008
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      First experience I had in electronics was that new doesn’t make it reliable.  Just a comment to consider.

       

      Interestingly the fires and resultant smoke in the air does impact RF propagation.  Add to that the temperature inversions coming across the bay are wicked during these types of days.  Santa Clara is pretty much across the bay from Sutro and Bruno.  I don’t believe it’s a 50% thing on a properly aligned antenna system however.  Are the VHF and UHF levels down the same amount?  Different antennas so if an antenna moved slightly it could be an indicator.

       

      FYI: Cable companies love problems like this.  Seemingly you have done a great job with the antenna system and it screws you.  Hang in there and don’t give up the ship.


      From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Harry Birmingham
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:57 PM
      To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Is it just me?

       


      I would check all cable connectors/plugs for good
      tight fits, and also inspect the external cabling to
      make sure it is also in good shape.
      --- Nick Sayer <nsayer@...> wrote:

      > I'm pretty sure this is just me, but I'll be damned
      > if I know what's wrong.
      >
      > I have a CM7777, CM4228 and a Y5-7-13. Yesterday,
      > they were all working fine. This
      > morning, everything seems like it's at half
      > strength. Even the analog side seems like it's
      > weaker than it was. Even 54 isn't coming in hardly
      > at all (I live in Santa Clara ).
      I tried
      > unplugging the power supply for the amp, but that
      > made everything disappear the rest of
      > the way. The only thing I can think of is that the
      > recent heat wave killed my amp, but that
      > just doesn't seem likely (it's brand new).
      >
      > I don't know what to check next. Any ideas?
      >
      >
      >
      >

    • Nick Sayer
      ... [...] ... It cleared itself up without me doing anything by the time I checked back later that evening. It hasn t happened again since.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 14, 2008
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        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Sayer" <nsayer@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm pretty sure this is just me, but I'll be damned if I know what's wrong.
        >
        [...]
        >
        > I don't know what to check next. Any ideas?
        >

        It cleared itself up without me doing anything by the time I checked back later that evening.
        It hasn't happened again since.
      • Larry Kenney
        I ve found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately that I thought I d share with the group. I now have six digital tuners - I know, rather
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 14, 2008
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          I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
          that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
          tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
          behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
          PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
          idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
          fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
          You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
          you could get after reading this.

          FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
          Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
          Insignia digital to analog converter box.

          I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
          would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
          on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
          doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
          where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
          I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
          signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
          Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
          them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
          who's in the TV business able to explain this?

          Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
          that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
          could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
          nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
          stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
          on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
          and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
          all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)

          Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
          detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
          channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
          channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
          you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
          that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.

          Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
          the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
          It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
          "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
          7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
          stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
          I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
          and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
          out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
          other receivers.

          I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
          receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
          receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
          bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)

          Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
          PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
          display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
          other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
          display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
          other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
          changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.

          One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
          greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
          good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
          tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.

          I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
          I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.

          Larry
          SF
        • epicurusradium
          Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process! As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent add channels scan on the Sony in BDR ( Bravia
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 14, 2008
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            Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
            As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
            scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
            iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
            get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
            signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
            of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
            on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available stations.

            I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
            week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
            It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
            but to have none at all......

            Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
            watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
            weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
            couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
            as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
            weakening signals some.

            Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
            be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
            if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
            able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
            low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.


            --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
            >
            > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
            > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
            > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
            > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
            > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
            > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
            > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
            > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
            > you could get after reading this.
            >
            > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
            > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
            > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
            >
            > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
            > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
            > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
            > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
            > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
            > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
            > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
            > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
            > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
            > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
            >
            > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
            > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
            > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
            > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
            > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
            > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
            > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
            > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
            >
            > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
            > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
            > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
            > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
            > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
            > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
            >
            > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
            > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
            > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
            > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
            > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
            > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
            > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
            > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
            > out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
            > other receivers.
            >
            > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
            > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
            > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
            > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
            >
            > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
            > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
            > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
            > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
            > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
            > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
            > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
            >
            > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
            > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
            > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
            > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
            >
            > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
            > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
            >
            > Larry
            > SF
            >
          • James E. Flemer
            I also see KGO transmitting their three channels starting on PID 3: 24-3 is 7.1 KGO-HD 24-4 is 7.2 KGO-New 24-5 is 7.3 KGO-Acc Additionally my last scan (2-3
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 14, 2008
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              I also see KGO transmitting their three channels starting on PID 3:

              24-3 is 7.1 KGO-HD
              24-4 is 7.2 KGO-New
              24-5 is 7.3 KGO-Acc

              Additionally my last scan (2-3 weeks ago) showed the following also
              starting on PID 3 ("-3" as Larry denotes it):
              KTVU, KRON, KNTV, KBWB, KCNS, KCSM, KTFK, KFSF, KTLN

              Here is my full channel map (from 2-3 weeks ago):

              +------------+------+------+------+----------+
              | FREQ (MHz) | PHYS | PID | PSIP | CALLSIGN |
              +------------+------+------+------+----------+
              | 725.0000 | 56 | 3 | 2.1 | KTVU-HD |
              | 725.0000 | 56 | 4 | 2.2 | KTVU-SD |
              | 731.0000 | 57 | 3 | 4.1 | KRON-SD |
              | 731.0000 | 57 | 4 | 4.2 | KRON-HD |
              | 731.0000 | 57 | 5 | 4.3 | KRON-SD |
              | 563.0000 | 29 | 1 | 5.1 | KPIX-HD |
              | 533.0000 | 24 | 3 | 7.1 | KGO-HD |
              | 533.0000 | 24 | 4 | 7.2 | KGO-New |
              | 533.0000 | 24 | 5 | 7.3 | KGO-Acc |
              | 569.0000 | 30 | 1 | 9.1 | KQED-HD |
              | 569.0000 | 30 | 2 | 9.2 | LIF/ENC |
              | 569.0000 | 30 | 3 | 9.3 | WORLD |
              | 569.0000 | 30 | 4 | 9.4 | V-ME |
              | 569.0000 | 30 | 5 | 9.5 | KIDS |
              | 207.0000 | 12 | 3 | 11.1 | KNTV-HD |
              | 207.0000 | 12 | 4 | 11.2 | NBC Wea |
              | 503.0000 | 19 | 3 | 20.1 | KBWB-HD |
              | 503.0000 | 19 | 4 | 20.4 | AZTECA |
              | 551.0000 | 27 | 3 | 26.1 | KTSF-D1 |
              | 551.0000 | 27 | 4 | 26.2 | KTSF-D2 |
              | 587.0000 | 33 | 3 | 32.1 | KMTP-DT |
              | 587.0000 | 33 | 4 | 32.2 | WorldCh |
              | 587.0000 | 33 | 5 | 32.4 | WTV |
              | 587.0000 | 33 | 6 | 32.5 | NTD |
              | 623.0000 | 39 | 3 | 38.1 | KCNS-DT |
              | 647.0000 | 43 | 3 | 43.1 | KCSM |
              | 647.0000 | 43 | 4 | 43.2 | KCSMMHz |
              | 647.0000 | 43 | 5 | 43.3 | Jazz-TV |
              | 659.0000 | 45 | 1 | 44.1 | KBCW-HD |
              | 761.0000 | 62 | 3 | 64.1 | KTFK-HD |
              | 593.0000 | 34 | 3 | 66.1 | KFSF DT |
              | 593.0000 | 34 | 4 | 66.2 | KDTV-DT |
              | 671.0000 | 47 | 3 | 68.1 | KTLN-DT |
              +------------+------+------+------+----------+

              I don't actually get strong enough signal to receive all those, in
              some cases I had to leave the tuner on the physical frequency for
              quite a while to get enough frames to build the complete map.

              -James

              On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
              > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
              > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
              > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
              > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
              > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
              > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
              > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
              > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
              > you could get after reading this.
              >
              > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
              > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
              > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
              >
              > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
              > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
              > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
              > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
              > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
              > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
              > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
              > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
              > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
              > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
              >
              > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
              > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
              > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
              > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
              > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
              > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
              > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
              > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
              >
              > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
              > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
              > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
              > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
              > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
              > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
              >
              > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
              > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
              > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
              > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
              > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
              > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
              > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
              > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
              > out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
              > other receivers.
              >
              > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
              > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
              > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
              > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
              >
              > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
              > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
              > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
              > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
              > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
              > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
              > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
              >
              > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
              > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
              > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
              > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
              >
              > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
              > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
              >
              > Larry
              > SF
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Larry Kenney
              I hope you were able to absorb some of what I wrote, epicurusradium. I know I included lots of information. You mentioned KTLN 68.1. That s one of the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 14, 2008
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                I hope you were able to absorb some of what I wrote, epicurusradium.  I know I included lots of information.

                You mentioned KTLN 68.1.  That's one of the stations that has recently become weird here, too. On some of my tuners it comes in fine on 68.1, but on others I get nothing.  The converter box changes 68-1 to 47-1... so somehow it knows where the signal is coming from... but it won't display a picture.

                You must be receiving multipath interference for KBCW 44.1, or the summer atmospheric conditions are messing up the signal for you.  Hopefully, as you say, once we go all digital and the stations go to their permanent digital channels and antennas we'll see good reception from all channels.  Many of the UHF stations have applied for full power of 1000 Kw.   KBCW is one of them.  You don't need to worry about KGO's post transition power.  Their 24 Kw, a 3 Kw increase that was just okayed by the FCC, gives them better coverage than they have now on both channel 7 analog and 24 digital.  VHF channels don't require a lot of power like UHF stations do.  If you get 7 analog okay now, you should get 7 digital after the change.

                Larry
                SF

                - - -


                On Jul 14, 2008, at 7:55 PM, epicurusradium wrote:

                Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process! 
                As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available stations.

                I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                but to have none at all......

                Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                weakening signals some. 

                Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.


              • Richard Swank
                It s my uneducated understanding of MPeg that the sub-channels 1 and 2 in MPeg are for use by the satellite s use of Mpeg. Therefore almost all broadcasters
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 15, 2008
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                  It’s my uneducated understanding of MPeg that the sub-channels 1 and 2 in MPeg are for use by the satellite’s use of Mpeg.  Therefore almost all broadcasters use sub-channels 3 4 5 and so on.  From my stream analyzer observances of the local off-air channels not all locals honor this concept.  It may be a function of their encoder’s setup or the encoder manufactures I do not know.  PSIP of course corrects for most of these variances but if you are using a tuner that doesn’t use PSIP information you will find most main channels on ch-3 but the ones not honoring this concept do begin on ch-1.

                   

                  I do not know if this concept is suppose to be written in stone and being ignored or just a function of held over (pre-DTV) long term familiarity by Mpeg engineers.

                   


                  From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Larry Kenney
                  Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:41 PM
                  To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] PSIP Craziness???

                   

                  I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                  that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                  tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                  behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                  PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                  idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                  fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                  You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                  you could get after reading this.

                  FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                  Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                  Insignia digital to analog converter box.

                  I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                  would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                  on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                  doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                  where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                  I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                  signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                  Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                  them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                  who's in the TV business able to explain this?

                  Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                  that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                  could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo , but I get a
                  nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                  stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                  on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                  and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                  all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)

                  Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                  detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                  channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                  channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                  you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                  that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.

                  Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                  the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                  It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                  "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                  7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                  stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                  I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                  and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                  out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                  other receivers.

                  I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                  receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                  receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                  bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)

                  Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                  PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                  display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                  other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                  display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                  other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                  changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.

                  One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                  greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                  good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                  tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.

                  I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                  I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.

                  Larry
                  SF

                • epicurusradium
                  ... (snip) You don t need to worry about KGO s post transition power. Their 24 Kw, a 3 Kw increase that was just okayed by the FCC, gives them better coverage
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 15, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                    >
                    (snip)
                    You don't need to worry about KGO's post transition power. Their 24
                    Kw, a 3 Kw increase that was just okayed by the FCC, gives them better
                    coverage than they have now on both channel 7 analog and 24 digital.
                    VHF channels don't require a lot of power like UHF stations do. If
                    you get 7 analog okay now, you should get 7 digital after the change.

                    >
                    ..................................................................
                    I UNDERSTAND THE power vs propagation difference between UHF & VHF (in
                    general) but my point here was that NBC11 digital 12 is now running
                    100kw, so how is 24kw on VHF 7 going to be enough to even equal the ss
                    now received on ch 12 ??

                    I believe that there is a rule/natural law that it takes a quadrupling
                    of transmitting power to double the signal strength at the receiving
                    antenna.

                    Are you (or the FCC or whoever) saying that the frequency/wavelength
                    difference between VHF ch 7 and VHF ch 12 is such that only 1/4 the
                    power is needed for the same reception for ch7 as that of ch 12? I
                    find that hard to believe,,, but anyway with a certain proportion of
                    viewers using indoor antennas (usually 'rabbit ears' dipole for vhf
                    and generally a more sophisticated array for the UHF part of the
                    antenna) somewhat more power, proportionally, would be required for
                    equal results on all channels (balancing the lower loss on vhf with
                    the higher gain uhf element(s,)plus the higher xmitter pwr.

                    OH well, we will just have to wait and see.....
                    I am pleased that 44 may get a full gigawatt. That plus the presumably
                    higher antenna position on the tower should finally allow me to enjoy
                    the programing on this network in hi def digital!
                    ...........................


                    > I hope you were able to absorb some of what I wrote, epicurusradium.
                    > I know I included lots of information.
                    >
                    > You mentioned KTLN 68.1. That's one of the stations that has
                    > recently become weird here, too. On some of my tuners it comes in
                    > fine on 68.1, but on others I get nothing. The converter box changes
                    > 68-1 to 47-1... so somehow it knows where the signal is coming
                    > from... but it won't display a picture.
                    >
                    > You must be receiving multipath interference for KBCW 44.1, or the
                    > summer atmospheric conditions are messing up the signal for you.
                    > Hopefully, as you say, once we go all digital and the stations go to
                    > their permanent digital channels and antennas we'll see good
                    > reception from all channels. Many of the UHF stations have applied
                    > for full power of 1000 Kw. KBCW is one of them. You don't need to
                    > worry about KGO's post transition power. Their 24 Kw, a 3 Kw
                    > increase that was just okayed by the FCC, gives them better coverage
                    > than they have now on both channel 7 analog and 24 digital. VHF
                    > channels don't require a lot of power like UHF stations do. If you
                    > get 7 analog okay now, you should get 7 digital after the change.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    > SF
                    >
                    > - - -
                    >
                    >
                    > On Jul 14, 2008, at 7:55 PM, epicurusradium wrote:
                    >
                    > > Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                    > > As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                    > > scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                    > > iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                    > > get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                    > > signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                    > > of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                    > > on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available
                    > > stations.
                    > >
                    > > I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                    > > week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                    > > It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                    > > but to have none at all......
                    > >
                    > > Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                    > > watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                    > > weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                    > > couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                    > > as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                    > > weakening signals some.
                    > >
                    > > Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                    > > be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                    > > if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                    > > able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                    > > low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.
                    > >
                    >
                  • epicurusradium
                    Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process! As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent add channels scan on the Sony in BDR ( Bravia
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 15, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                      As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                      scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                      iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                      get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                      signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                      of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                      on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available stations.

                      I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                      week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                      It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                      but to have none at all......

                      Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                      watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                      weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                      couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                      as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                      weakening signals some.

                      Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                      be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                      if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                      able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                      low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.


                      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                      > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                      > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                      > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                      > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                      > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                      > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                      > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                      > you could get after reading this.
                      >
                      > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                      > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                      > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                      >
                      > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                      > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                      > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                      > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                      > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                      > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                      > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                      > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                      > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                      > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                      >
                      > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                      > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                      > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
                      > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                      > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                      > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                      > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                      > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                      >
                      > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                      > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                      > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                      > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                      > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                      > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                      >
                      > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                      > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                      > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                      > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                      > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                      > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                      > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                      > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                      > out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                      > other receivers.
                      >
                      > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                      > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                      > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                      > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                      >
                      > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                      > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                      > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                      > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                      > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                      > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                      > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                      >
                      > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                      > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                      > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                      > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                      >
                      > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                      > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                      >
                      > Larry
                      > SF
                      >
                    • epicurusradium
                      Sorry for the repeat post - don t exactly know how that happened - editing confusion....... ... stations. ... good ... converting ... receiver ... at ... of
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 15, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sorry for the repeat post - don't exactly know how that happened -
                        editing confusion.......

                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "epicurusradium" <gene9@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                        > As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                        > scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                        > iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                        > get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                        > signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                        > of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                        > on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available
                        stations.
                        >
                        > I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                        > week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                        > It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                        > but to have none at all......
                        >
                        > Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                        > watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                        > weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                        > couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                        > as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                        > weakening signals some.
                        >
                        > Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                        > be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                        > if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                        > able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                        > low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                        > > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                        > > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                        > > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                        > > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                        > > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                        > > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                        > > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                        > > you could get after reading this.
                        > >
                        > > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                        > > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                        > > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                        > >
                        > > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                        > > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                        > > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                        > > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                        > > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                        > > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a
                        good
                        > > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                        > > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP
                        converting
                        > > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                        > > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                        > >
                        > > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4
                        receiver
                        > > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                        > > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
                        > > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                        > > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                        > > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                        > > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal
                        at
                        > > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                        > >
                        > > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                        > > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                        > > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                        > > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some
                        of
                        > > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                        > > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                        > >
                        > > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received
                        with
                        > > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                        > > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                        > > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                        > > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                        > > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter,
                        but
                        > > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                        > > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                        > > out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of
                        the
                        > > other receivers.
                        > >
                        > > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                        > > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                        > > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                        > > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                        > >
                        > > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                        > > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                        > > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                        > > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                        > > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                        > > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                        > > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                        > >
                        > > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                        > > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                        > > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                        > > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                        > >
                        > > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                        > > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                        > >
                        > > Larry
                        > > SF
                        > >
                        >
                      • Richard Swank
                        KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in Northern California. We were able to maximize our power even above the NTSC replication as a
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 15, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment

                          KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in Northern California .  We were able to maximize our power even above the NTSC replication as a result.  This was necessary to provide city grade coverage in San Jose which is our city of license or we could not have moved to Bruno from Loma. We do have a slight pattern pull-in in the direction of Chico from Bruno however as there is another channel 12 there.  I suspect KGO will be fine in replicating their analog coverage post 2009.  If you get ch-7 now you will probably be able to get ch-7 off of the same antenna post 2009.

                           

                          KNTV was unlucky somewhat as we are the only VHF DTV channel in the market as we speak.  It seems the vendors tended to ignore the fact that DTV is both VHF and UHF and built many quote “DTV antennas” that were UHF in design.  Of course these antennas put us at a disadvantage as far as gain is concerned.  So many viewers in the area have had to do dual antennas to get us solidly.  We sort of paved the way for KGO to go VHF in DTV.  Salinas Monterey on the other hand will be mostly VHF DTV post 2009.

                           

                          It’s semi-funny in a way but most of the translators that fill coverage gaps in the analog world are UHF.  I suspect in the DTV world most of the translators that fill in coverage gaps will be low power VHF DTV transmitters (maybe some will be low band) as a majority of the DTV stations will be UHF post 2009.  This means of course not many channels in this band (UHF) will be interference free for translator use.

                           

                          The FCC by the way is one of the government agencies that are proficient in my opinion.  This addition of DTV and the transition to no analog is probably one of the largest undertakings they have faced.  Thank god they used engineering logic and not political logic as they proceeded through it.  There will be bumps in this whole thing but engineers have a way of working through those if left alone.

                           


                          From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of epicurusradium
                          Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:37 PM
                          To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???

                           

                          Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                          As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                          scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                          iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                          get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                          signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                          of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                          on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available stations.

                          I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                          week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                          It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                          but to have none at all......

                          Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                          watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                          weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                          couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                          as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                          weakening signals some.

                          Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                          be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                          if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                          able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                          low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.

                          --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                          > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                          > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                          > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                          > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                          > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                          > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                          > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                          > you could get after reading this.
                          >
                          > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                          > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                          > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                          >
                          > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                          > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                          > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                          > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                          > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                          > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                          > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found
                          "No
                          > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                          > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                          > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                          >
                          > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                          > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                          > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from
                          w:st="on">Mt. Diablo , but I get a
                          > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four
                          w:st="on">Sacramento
                          > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                          > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                          > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                          > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                          >
                          > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                          > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                          > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                          > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                          > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                          > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                          >
                          > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                          > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                          > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                          > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects
                          7-1,
                          > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                          > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                          > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                          > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                          > out of Santa Rosa
                          on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                          > other receivers.
                          >
                          > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                          > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                          > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                          > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                          >
                          > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                          > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                          > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On
                          my
                          > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                          > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                          > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                          > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                          >
                          > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                          > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                          > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                          > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                          >
                          > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                          > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                          >
                          > Larry
                          > SF
                          >

                        • Ron Economos
                          It s a bit of a history lesson. The original 1995 ATSC specification used the program paradigm where the base_PID = program number
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            It's a bit of a history lesson. The original 1995 ATSC specification used
                            the "program paradigm" where the base_PID = program number << 4
                            and individual PID's are defined like so:

                            PMT_PID = base_PID + 0
                            Video_PID = base_PID + 1
                            PCR_PID = base_PID + 1 (same as video)
                            Audio_PID = base_PID + 4

                            So for program 1, the PID's would be 0x10, 0x11 and 0x14.

                            Then along came DVB-T, which uses PID's in the range 0x10 to
                            0x1F for SI (System Information). Since the ATSC committee
                            believes that ATSC is an international standard (clearly debatable),
                            the use of PID's 0x10 thru 0x1F was prohibited. The ATSC standard
                            was changed to avoid PID's below 0x20.

                            Then along came the Japanese ARIB standard, which uses PID's in the
                            range 0x20 to 0x2F for SI (System Information). The ATSC standard
                            was changed again to avoid PID's below 0x30. This is where it stands
                            today.

                            The "program paradigm" is no longer in effect, but many older encoders
                            had that pretty much hard coded. So to get PID's in the 0x30 to 0x3F
                            range, the Program Number must be set to 3. However, it's not an ATSC
                            or FCC requirement. You can use Program Number 1 as long as the PID's
                            are 0x30 or above. This is what KPIX-DT uses today.

                            When KNTV-DT upgraded to Harmonic encoders after the Olympics, the
                            Program Numbers and PID's were replicated from the previous Harris
                            encoder (that followed the "program paradigm"). It wasn't necessary, but
                            it still works fine.

                            In reality, there's no reason to use any particular PID or Program Number
                            (except what's reserved in MPEG-2, PSIP and PID's ending in 0x47 should
                            be avoided to prevent sync byte emulation). All PID's can be found from the
                            PAT and PMT tables, so as long as the PSIP matches, there will not be
                            any problems. An ATSC station could use Program Number 600, PID
                            0x10f9 for PMT, 0x1533 for video/PCR and 0x4ab for audio and it
                            would still work (although older receivers may say the the sub-channel
                            is -600).

                            Ron

                            Richard Swank wrote:

                            It’s my uneducated understanding of MPeg that the sub-channels 1 and 2 in MPeg are for use by the satellite’s use of Mpeg.  Therefore almost all broadcasters use sub-channels 3 4 5 and so on.  From my stream analyzer observances of the local off-air channels not all locals honor this concept.  It may be a function of their encoder’s setup or the encoder manufactures I do not know.  PSIP of course corrects for most of these variances but if you are using a tuner that doesn’t use PSIP information you will find most main channels on ch-3 but the ones not honoring this concept do begin on ch-1.

                             

                            I do not know if this concept is suppose to be written in stone and being ignored or just a function of held over (pre-DTV) long term familiarity by Mpeg engineers.

                             


                            From: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Larry Kenney
                            Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:41 PM
                            To: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                            Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] PSIP Craziness???

                             

                            I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                            that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                            tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                            behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                            PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                            idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                            fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                            You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                            you could get after reading this.

                            FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                            Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                            Insignia digital to analog converter box.

                            I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                            would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                            on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                            doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                            where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                            I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                            signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                            Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                            them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                            who's in the TV business able to explain this?

                            Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                            that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                            could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo , but I get a
                            nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                            stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                            on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                            and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                            all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)

                            Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                            detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                            channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                            channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                            you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                            that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.

                            Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                            the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                            It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                            "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                            7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                            stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                            I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                            and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                            out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                            other receivers.

                            I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                            receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                            receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                            bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)

                            Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                            PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                            display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                            other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                            display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                            other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                            changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.

                            One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                            greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                            good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                            tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.

                            I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                            I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.

                            Larry
                            SF


                          • Ron Economos
                            The free space path loss equation is: 32.44 + 20log(d) + 20log(f) with d in kilometers and f in MHz. The center frequency for KNTV-DT on channel 12 is 207
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The "free space" path loss equation is:

                              32.44 + 20log(d) + 20log(f)

                              with d in kilometers and f in MHz.

                              The center frequency for KNTV-DT on channel 12 is 207 MHz

                              The center frequency for the future KGO-DT on channel 7 is 177 MHz

                              The antenna factor loss at 207 MHz is 46.32 dB

                              The antenna factor loss at 177 MHz is 44.96 dB

                              The difference is 1.36 dB. If KGO-DT and KNTV-DT
                              were at the same transmitter location, then KGO-DT would
                              have to run 75.38 kW to match KNTV-DT's 103.1 kW.

                              At 24 kW, KGO-DT would be 5 dB down from KNTV-DT.

                              In the real world, KNTV-DT delivers a huge signal to many
                              parts of the Bay Area. When I measured the signal level
                              of KNTV-DT in Milpitas, it was 50 dB or so above the
                              TOV (Threshold of Visible errors). As Richard suggests,
                              KGO-DT will have a big signal on channel 7 even at 24 kW.

                              Ron


                              Richard Swank wrote:

                              KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in Northern California .  We were able to maximize our power even above the NTSC replication as a result.  This was necessary to provide city grade coverage in San Jose which is our city of license or we could not have moved to Bruno from Loma. We do have a slight pattern pull-in in the direction of Chico from Bruno however as there is another channel 12 there.  I suspect KGO will be fine in replicating their analog coverage post 2009.  If you get ch-7 now you will probably be able to get ch-7 off of the same antenna post 2009.

                               

                              KNTV was unlucky somewhat as we are the only VHF DTV channel in the market as we speak.  It seems the vendors tended to ignore the fact that DTV is both VHF and UHF and built many quote “DTV antennas” that were UHF in design.  Of course these antennas put us at a disadvantage as far as gain is concerned.  So many viewers in the area have had to do dual antennas to get us solidly.  We sort of paved the way for KGO to go VHF in DTV.  Salinas Monterey on the other hand will be mostly VHF DTV post 2009.

                               

                              It’s semi-funny in a way but most of the translators that fill coverage gaps in the analog world are UHF.  I suspect in the DTV world most of the translators that fill in coverage gaps will be low power VHF DTV transmitters (maybe some will be low band) as a majority of the DTV stations will be UHF post 2009.  This means of course not many channels in this band (UHF) will be interference free for translator use.

                               

                              The FCC by the way is one of the government agencies that are proficient in my opinion.  This addition of DTV and the transition to no analog is probably one of the largest undertakings they have faced.  Thank god they used engineering logic and not political logic as they proceeded through it.  There will be bumps in this whole thing but engineers have a way of working through those if left alone.

                               


                              From: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of epicurusradium
                              Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:37 PM
                              To: HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???

                               

                              Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                              As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                              scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                              iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                              get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                              signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                              of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                              on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available stations.

                              I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                              week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                              It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                              but to have none at all......

                              Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                              watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                              weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                              couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                              as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                              weakening signals some.

                              Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                              be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                              if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                              able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                              low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.

                              --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                              > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                              > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                              > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                              > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                              > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                              > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                              > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                              > you could get after reading this.
                              >
                              > FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                              > Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                              > Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                              >
                              > I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                              > would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                              > on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                              > doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                              > where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                              > I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                              > signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                              > Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                              > them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                              > who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                              >
                              > Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                              > that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                              > could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo , but I get a
                              > nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                              > stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                              > on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                              > and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                              > all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                              >
                              > Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                              > detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                              > channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                              > channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                              > you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                              > that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                              >
                              > Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                              > the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                              > It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                              > "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                              > 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                              > stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                              > I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                              > and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                              > out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                              > other receivers.
                              >
                              > I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                              > receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                              > receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                              > bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                              >
                              > Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                              > PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                              > display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                              > other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                              > display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                              > other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                              > changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                              >
                              > One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                              > greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                              > good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                              > tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                              >
                              > I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                              > I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                              >
                              > Larry
                              > SF
                              >


                            • epicurusradium
                              ... Excellent technical response to PART of the issue, but my secondary point was/is that for those folks not having the biggest and best outdoor antenna, the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Ron Economos <w6rz@...> wrote:

                                Excellent technical response to PART of the issue, but my secondary
                                point was/is that for those folks not having the biggest and best
                                outdoor antenna, the reception on some/many antennas, particularly
                                good indoor antennas, is such that the VHF portion ie rabbit ears, is
                                quite a bit less than the UHF part. Example; the several versions of
                                the 'silver sensor' 7 element LPDA with single element dipole (rabbit
                                ears).

                                It is my contention, based on personal experience, that on average,
                                actual reception is better on the UHF stations than on those on the
                                vhf band. Therefore, even allowing for the afore mentioned general
                                advantage in propagation of the lower frequencies it is still smart to
                                use the maximum power allowed for vhf, ie 100kw. That to me is
                                reasonable and makes good sense.

                                The 2 indoor antennas which I currently have, and base this on, are
                                the Terk HDTVi (with aux low noise amp) and the Winegard
                                'Sharpshooter' SS-3000, which last is, in spite of built in amp, lousy
                                on all vhf stations in this area. With the Wineguard I get several UHF
                                Sutro tower digital stations and Mt San Bruno also, acceptably -- but
                                NO usable reception on any of those operating on vhf - analog or digital.


                                >
                                > The "free space" path loss equation is:
                                >
                                > 32.44 + 20log(d) + 20log(f)
                                >
                                > with d in kilometers and f in MHz.
                                >
                                > The center frequency for KNTV-DT on channel 12 is 207 MHz
                                >
                                > The center frequency for the future KGO-DT on channel 7 is 177 MHz
                                >
                                > The antenna factor loss at 207 MHz is 46.32 dB
                                >
                                > The antenna factor loss at 177 MHz is 44.96 dB
                                >
                                > The difference is 1.36 dB. If KGO-DT and KNTV-DT
                                > were at the same transmitter location, then KGO-DT would
                                > have to run 75.38 kW to match KNTV-DT's 103.1 kW.
                                >
                                > At 24 kW, KGO-DT would be 5 dB down from KNTV-DT.
                                >
                                > In the real world, KNTV-DT delivers a huge signal to many
                                > parts of the Bay Area. When I measured the signal level
                                > of KNTV-DT in Milpitas, it was 50 dB or so above the
                                > TOV (Threshold of Visible errors). As Richard suggests,
                                > KGO-DT will have a big signal on channel 7 even at 24 kW.
                                >
                                > Ron
                                >
                                >
                                > Richard Swank wrote:
                                >
                                > > KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in
                                > > Northern California. We were able to maximize our power even above
                                > > the NTSC replication as a result. This was necessary to provide city
                                > > grade coverage in San Jose which is our city of license or we could
                                > > not have moved to Bruno from Loma. We do have a slight pattern
                                pull-in
                                > > in the direction of Chico from Bruno however as there is another
                                > > channel 12 there. I suspect KGO will be fine in replicating their
                                > > analog coverage post 2009. If you get ch-7 now you will probably be
                                > > able to get ch-7 off of the same antenna post 2009.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > KNTV was unlucky somewhat as we are the only VHF DTV channel in the
                                > > market as we speak. It seems the vendors tended to ignore the fact
                                > > that DTV is both VHF and UHF and built many quote "DTV antennas" that
                                > > were UHF in design. Of course these antennas put us at a
                                disadvantage
                                > > as far as gain is concerned. So many viewers in the area have had to
                                > > do dual antennas to get us solidly. We sort of paved the way for KGO
                                > > to go VHF in DTV. Salinas Monterey on the other hand will be mostly
                                > > VHF DTV post 2009.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > It's semi-funny in a way but most of the translators that fill
                                > > coverage gaps in the analog world are UHF. I suspect in the DTV
                                world
                                > > most of the translators that fill in coverage gaps will be low power
                                > > VHF DTV transmitters (maybe some will be low band) as a majority of
                                > > the DTV stations will be UHF post 2009. This means of course not
                                many
                                > > channels in this band (UHF) will be interference free for
                                translator use.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > The FCC by the way is one of the government agencies that are
                                > > proficient in my opinion. This addition of DTV and the transition to
                                > > no analog is probably one of the largest undertakings they have
                                > > faced. Thank god they used engineering logic and not political logic
                                > > as they proceeded through it. There will be bumps in this whole
                                thing
                                > > but engineers have a way of working through those if left alone.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > *From:* HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *epicurusradium
                                > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:37 PM
                                > > *To:* HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > *Subject:* [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                                > > As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                                > > scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                                > > iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                                > > get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                                > > signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                                > > of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                                > > on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available
                                stations.
                                > >
                                > > I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least a
                                > > week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                                > > It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                                > > but to have none at all......
                                > >
                                > > Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                                > > watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                                > > weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                                > > couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                                > > as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                                > > weakening signals some.
                                > >
                                > > Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas will
                                > > be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                                > > if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                                > > able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                                > > low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.
                                > >
                                > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>, Larry Kenney <Larry@> wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >> I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                                > >> that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                                > >> tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                                > >> behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                                > >> PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                                > >> idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                                > >> fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                                > >> You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                                > >> you could get after reading this.
                                > >>
                                > >> FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622, Hi-
                                > >> Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                                > >> Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                                > >>
                                > >> I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                                > >> would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                                > >> on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                                > >> doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                                > >> where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                                > >> I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a good
                                > >> signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                                > >> Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP converting
                                > >> them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                                > >> who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                                > >>
                                > >> Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4 receiver
                                > >> that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                                > >> could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
                                > >> nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                                > >> stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL 40
                                > >> on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                                > >> and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal at
                                > >> all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                                > >>
                                > >> Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver to
                                > >> detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                                > >> channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                                > >> channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                                > >> you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                                > >> that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                                > >>
                                > >> Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received with
                                > >> the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                                > >> It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting the
                                > >> "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                                > >> 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                                > >> stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter, but
                                > >> I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                                > >> and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                                > >> out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                                > >> other receivers.
                                > >>
                                > >> I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                                > >> receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                                > >> receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                                > >> bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                                > >>
                                > >> Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                                > >> PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                                > >> display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                                > >> other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                                > >> display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                                > >> other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                                > >> changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                                > >>
                                > >> One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                                > >> greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                                > >> good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                                > >> tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                                > >>
                                > >> I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest and
                                > >> I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                                > >>
                                > >> Larry
                                > >> SF
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Larry Kenney
                                The restrictions imposed by the FCC on a station s power level for digital take several things into consideration, things like the height of the antenna,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  The restrictions imposed by the FCC on a station's power level for digital take several things into consideration, things like the height of the antenna, on-channel and co-channel interference, the channel used, and lots more.

                                  KNTV was very lucky to get their 103 kW at 1237 feet HAAT, as Richard pointed out yesterday.  Someone on one of the AVS groups noted that it was in the top 10 stations for power on VHF in the entire country. 

                                  KGO's newly approved power of 24 kW at 1686 feet is also considered to be very good.  The coverage of their digital signal on channel 7 will exceed the coverage they now have on channel 7 with their analog signal and on channel 24 with their digital signal.    

                                  The FCC does NOT take into consideration the poor design of indoor antennas when setting power levels.  

                                  Most of the VHF stations across the country are being authorized ERP levels at much lower levels than what we have.  Here are a few examples (power in Kw ERP):
                                  In New York City with antenna at approx 1325' HAAT:
                                  7 - 3.2
                                  11 - 7.5
                                  13 - 9.3
                                  In Los Angeles - approx 3100' HAAT (Mt. Wilson)
                                  7 - 13.2
                                  9 - 12
                                  11 - 15
                                  13 - 14.1
                                  In Chicago - approx 1500' HAAT (Hancock and Sears Towers)
                                  7 - 3.2
                                  10 - 14.5
                                  12 - 8
                                  In Philadelphia - approx 900' HAAT
                                  9 - 3.2
                                  12 - 9.9
                                  In Dallas - approx 1500' HAAT
                                  8 - 30
                                  9 - 13
                                  11 - 23

                                  So you can see that we did very well to get the power levels we have for 7 and 12.

                                  Larry
                                  SF

                                  - - -

                                  On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:46 AM, epicurusradium wrote:

                                  --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Economos <w6rz@...> wrote:

                                  Excellent technical response to PART of the issue, but my secondary
                                  point was/is that for those folks not having the biggest and best
                                  outdoor antenna, the reception on some/many antennas, particularly
                                  good indoor antennas, is such that the VHF portion ie rabbit ears, is
                                  quite a bit less than the UHF part. Example; the several versions of
                                  the 'silver sensor' 7 element LPDA with single element dipole (rabbit
                                  ears).

                                  It is my contention, based on personal experience, that on average,
                                  actual reception is better on the UHF stations than on those on the
                                  vhf band. Therefore, even allowing for the afore mentioned general
                                  advantage in propagation of the lower frequencies it is still smart to
                                  use the maximum power allowed for vhf, ie 100kw. That to me is
                                  reasonable and makes good sense.

                                  The 2 indoor antennas which I currently have, and base this on, are
                                  the Terk HDTVi (with aux low noise amp) and the Winegard
                                  'Sharpshooter' SS-3000, which last is, in spite of built in amp, lousy
                                  on all vhf stations in this area. With the Wineguard I get several UHF
                                  Sutro tower digital stations and Mt San Bruno also, acceptably -- but
                                  NO usable reception on any of those operating on vhf - analog or digital.


                                • Richard Swank
                                  There are a lot of technical specifications that goes into the maximum power a station is allowed. There are a number of markets in Northern California and a
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
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                                    There are a lot of technical specifications that goes into the maximum power a station is allowed.  There are a number of markets in Northern California and a stations power is somewhat limited by the stations in the other markets as well as their own.  KGO has I’m sure maximized their future DTV power to the point that it meets the co-channel and adjacent channel limits in Northern California .  They can not just up their power as the governing agency i.e. FCC will not allow it.  By the way I believe the FCC bases their calculations for over the air reception ability on an antenna 30’ high with a gain of 6db.  So if you have less than this you very well might not be able to use over-the-air for reception.  Distant indoor antenna reception i.e. rabbit ears is pie in the sky desire and not a true reality.  Manufactures of the DTV indoor antennas in general did not build in very good VHF gain or ability.  A single element dipole has unity gain or none it gives you exactly whatever level the Rf is where it is used.  If you must use an indoor antenna then one should be acquired that has gain in both UHF and VHF spectrums.  The amount of Rf at your location is probably about the same for the UHF and VHF stations despite what you think.  Your antenna is different in UHF and VHF gain would be my guess as to the difference you are experiencing in your ability to receive all channels.

                                     


                                    From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of epicurusradium
                                    Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:46 AM
                                    To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???

                                     

                                    --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com, Ron Economos <w6rz@...> wrote:

                                    Excellent technical response to PART of the issue, but my secondary
                                    point was/is that for those folks not having the biggest and best
                                    outdoor antenna, the reception on some/many antennas, particularly
                                    good indoor antennas, is such that the VHF portion ie rabbit ears, is
                                    quite a bit less than the UHF part. Example; the several versions of
                                    the 'silver sensor' 7 element LPDA with single element dipole (rabbit
                                    ears).

                                    It is my contention, based on personal experience, that on average,
                                    actual reception is better on the UHF stations than on those on the
                                    vhf band. Therefore, even allowing for the afore mentioned general
                                    advantage in propagation of the lower frequencies it is still smart to
                                    use the maximum power allowed for vhf, ie 100kw. That to me is
                                    reasonable and makes good sense.

                                    The 2 indoor antennas which I currently have, and base this on, are
                                    the Terk HDTVi (with aux low noise amp) and the Winegard
                                    'Sharpshooter' SS-3000, which last is, in spite of built in amp, lousy
                                    on all vhf stations in this area. With the Wineguard I get several UHF
                                    Sutro tower digital stations and Mt San Bruno also, acceptably -- but
                                    NO usable reception on any of those operating on vhf - analog or digital.

                                    >
                                    > The "free space" path loss equation is:
                                    >
                                    > 32.44 + 20log(d) + 20log(f)
                                    >
                                    > with d in kilometers and f in MHz.
                                    >
                                    > The center frequency for KNTV-DT on channel 12 is 207 MHz
                                    >
                                    > The center frequency for the future KGO-DT on channel 7 is 177 MHz
                                    >
                                    > The antenna factor loss at 207 MHz is 46.32 dB
                                    >
                                    > The antenna factor loss at 177 MHz is 44.96 dB
                                    >
                                    > The difference is 1.36 dB. If KGO-DT and KNTV-DT
                                    > were at the same transmitter location, then KGO-DT would
                                    > have to run 75.38 kW to match KNTV-DT's 103.1 kW.
                                    >
                                    > At 24 kW, KGO-DT would be 5 dB down from KNTV-DT.
                                    >
                                    > In the real world, KNTV-DT delivers a huge signal to many
                                    > parts of the Bay Area. When I measured the signal level
                                    > of KNTV-DT in Milpitas ,
                                    it was 50 dB or so above the
                                    > TOV (Threshold of Visible errors). As Richard suggests,
                                    > KGO-DT will have a big signal on channel 7 even at 24 kW.
                                    >
                                    > Ron
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Richard Swank wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in
                                    > > Northern California . We were able to
                                    maximize our power even above
                                    > > the NTSC replication as a result. This was necessary to provide city
                                    > > grade coverage in San Jose
                                    which is our city of license or we could
                                    > > not have moved to Bruno from Loma. We do have a slight pattern
                                    pull-in
                                    > > in the direction of Chico
                                    from Bruno however as there is another
                                    > > channel 12 there. I suspect KGO will be fine in replicating their
                                    > > analog coverage post 2009. If you get ch-7 now you will probably be
                                    > > able to get ch-7 off of the same antenna post 2009.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > KNTV was unlucky somewhat as we are the only VHF DTV channel in the
                                    > > market as we speak. It seems the vendors tended to ignore the fact
                                    > > that DTV is both VHF and UHF and built many quote "DTV
                                    antennas" that
                                    > > were UHF in design. Of course these antennas put us at a
                                    disadvantage
                                    > > as far as gain is concerned. So many viewers in the area have had to
                                    > > do dual antennas to get us solidly. We sort of paved the way for KGO
                                    > > to go VHF in DTV. Salinas Monterey on the other hand will be mostly
                                    > > VHF DTV post 2009.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > It's semi-funny in a way but most of the translators that fill
                                    > > coverage gaps in the analog world are UHF. I suspect in the DTV
                                    world
                                    > > most of the translators that fill in coverage gaps will be low power
                                    > > VHF DTV transmitters (maybe some will be low band) as a majority of
                                    > > the DTV stations will be UHF post 2009. This means of course not
                                    many
                                    > > channels in this band (UHF) will be interference free for
                                    translator use.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > The FCC by the way is one of the government agencies that are
                                    > > proficient in my opinion. This addition of DTV and the transition to
                                    > > no analog is probably one of the largest undertakings they have
                                    > > faced. Thank god they used engineering logic and not political logic
                                    > > as they proceeded through it. There will be bumps in this whole
                                    thing
                                    > > but engineers have a way of working through those if left alone.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                                    > >
                                    > > *From:* HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com]
                                    *On Behalf Of *epicurusradium
                                    > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:37 PM
                                    > > *To:* HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > *Subject:* [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                                    > > As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                                    > > scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                                    > > iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                                    > > get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                                    > > signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been true
                                    > > of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a pic/sound
                                    > > on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available
                                    stations.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at least
                                    a
                                    > > week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot which.
                                    > > It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                                    > > but to have none at all......
                                    > >
                                    > > Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                                    > > watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is also
                                    > > weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                                    > > couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe it is
                                    > > as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                                    > > weakening signals some.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital antennas
                                    will
                                    > > be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                                    > > if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may not be
                                    > > able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                                    > > low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ yahoogroups. com
                                    > > <mailto:HDTV- in-SFbay% 40yahoogroups. com>, Larry
                                    Kenney <Larry@> wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems
                                    lately
                                    > >> that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                                    > >> tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                                    > >> behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations
                                    are
                                    > >> PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                                    > >> idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                                    > >> fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting,
                                    too.
                                    > >> You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't
                                    think
                                    > >> you could get after reading this.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish ViP622,
                                    Hi-
                                    > >> Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                                    > >> Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer
                                    tuner
                                    > >> would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main
                                    channel
                                    > >> on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                                    > >> doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                                    > >> where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees
                                    fit.)
                                    > >> I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got a
                                    good
                                    > >> signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that
                                    found "No
                                    > >> Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP
                                    converting
                                    > >> them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                                    > >> who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4
                                    receiver
                                    > >> that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                                    > >> could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from
                                    w:st="on">Mt. Diablo , but I get a
                                    > >> nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four
                                    w:st="on">Sacramento
                                    > >> stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4, KTXL
                                    40
                                    > >> on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on
                                    35-1
                                    > >> and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no signal
                                    at
                                    > >> all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the receiver
                                    to
                                    > >> detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the
                                    proper
                                    > >> channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                                    > >> channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some
                                    of
                                    > >> you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                                    > >> that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results received
                                    with
                                    > >> the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently
                                    bought.
                                    > >> It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of inputting
                                    the
                                    > >> "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it
                                    detects 7-1,
                                    > >> 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                                    > >> stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning meter,
                                    but
                                    > >> I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                                    > >> and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get
                                    KFTY
                                    > >> out of Santa Rosa
                                    on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any of the
                                    > >> other receivers.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                                    > >> receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my
                                    other
                                    > >> receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                                    > >> bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect
                                    are
                                    > >> PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4
                                    doesn't
                                    > >> display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks
                                    fine. On my
                                    > >> other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will
                                    not
                                    > >> display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on
                                    the
                                    > >> other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                                    > >> changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                                    > >> greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere
                                    as
                                    > >> good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                                    > >> tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I hope some of you have found this information to be of interest
                                    and
                                    > >> I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Larry
                                    > >> SF
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >

                                  • minakami
                                    Quite a bit of info. I would suspect that some of the DTV receivers are incorrectly handling PSIP. They may be making assumptions about how the PAT, PMT, and
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Quite a bit of info. I would suspect that some of the DTV receivers are
                                      incorrectly handling PSIP. They may be making assumptions about how the
                                      PAT, PMT, and actual program pids have been set up. It is also possible
                                      that some broadcasters are now including TVCTs, which some receivers
                                      may be using but not others. If you can get a solid picture, then its
                                      unlikely that stability of the SI data is what's causing you problems.
                                      I started the HD projects at TiVo in 2002, and ATSC tuning was
                                      something we paid a bit of attention to (in particular managing minor
                                      numbers, and trying to reconcile them with program guide data we were
                                      getting from our provider). While finding subchannels is rather easy,
                                      figuring out what they should be called isn't always so straightforward.

                                      However you've piqued my interest and I'll see if I can spend a some
                                      time analysing the SI of some of the channels you mention.

                                      --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kenney <Larry@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems lately
                                      > that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                                      > tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                                      > behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                                      > PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                                      > idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                                      > fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                                      > You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't think
                                      > you could get after reading this.
                                      >...
                                    • epicurusradium
                                      ... (response inside, down a bit) ... maximum power ... California ... future DTV ... limits ... governing ... AS I NOTED many weeks ago regarding the miserly
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Swank" <rswank@...> wrote:
                                        (response inside, down a bit)
                                        >
                                        > There are a lot of technical specifications that goes into the
                                        maximum power
                                        > a station is allowed. There are a number of markets in Northern
                                        California
                                        > and a stations power is somewhat limited by the stations in the other
                                        > markets as well as their own. KGO has I'm sure maximized their
                                        future DTV
                                        > power to the point that it meets the co-channel and adjacent channel
                                        limits
                                        > in Northern California. They can not just up their power as the
                                        governing
                                        > agency i.e. FCC will not allow it.

                                        AS I NOTED many weeks ago regarding the miserly number of channels
                                        left to us after the sell off of most of the TV spectrum there is not
                                        now enough space to allow for the large overlapping market in the
                                        greater bay area/Sacramento/Monterey Bay Area - a fact which you
                                        apparently do acknowledge here. I never claimed it was not the fault
                                        of the broadcasters - except possibly in not fighting harder for
                                        retention of a bit more of the spectrum space.

                                        I suppose we should all accept the domination of subscription
                                        cable/satellite service for what once was to be free (paid for by
                                        commercials and PSAs) and/or just forget about TV if we happen not to
                                        live in our own home, ie have to rent and cannot afford the high cable
                                        service prices.

                                        (more below)

                                        >
                                        By the way I believe the FCC bases their
                                        > calculations for over the air reception ability on an antenna 30'
                                        high with
                                        > a gain of 6db. So if you have less than this you very well might not be
                                        > able to use over-the-air for reception. Distant indoor antenna
                                        reception
                                        > i.e. rabbit ears is pie in the sky desire and not a true reality.
                                        > Manufactures of the DTV indoor antennas in general did not build in very
                                        > good VHF gain or ability. A single element dipole has unity gain or
                                        none it
                                        > gives you exactly whatever level the Rf is where it is used. If you
                                        must
                                        > use an indoor antenna then one should be acquired that has gain in
                                        both UHF
                                        > and VHF spectrums.

                                        I AND I ASSUME, many others would gladly acquire (a) better designed
                                        indoor antenna(s) if such were available. I currently have the best
                                        that is out there according to all reviews I know of.

                                        I did write Winegard suggesting improvement to their well rated
                                        Sharpshooter SS-3000 ie modification of the basic design to increase
                                        raw gain by reducing bandwidth to cover only the remaining channels
                                        and increasing the gain of the built in amplifier to ~20db while
                                        maintaining the <1db internal noise they claim now. The 'silver
                                        sensor' 7 element LPDA could also benefit by this same reduction of
                                        bandwidth plus the replacement of the single element dipole (rabbit
                                        ears) with a 3 element LPDA for high band VHF - which should be of
                                        manageable size and acceptable performance. Other designs must be
                                        possible, I am not an engineer and cannot design and/or build it myself!

                                        (more below)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        The amount of Rf at your location is probably about the
                                        > same for the UHF and VHF stations despite what you think. Your
                                        antenna is
                                        > different in UHF and VHF gain would be my guess as to the difference
                                        you are
                                        > experiencing in your ability to receive all channels.

                                        OF COURSE I agree that more should be done in providing more choice in
                                        compact design higher performance antennas. Maybe this will be
                                        done.... if they don't simply assume there is insufficient market.
                                        Seems to me that forces in high places would rather just push everyone
                                        to pay for cable and the hell with broadcast TV....or just go read a
                                        book.


                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > _____
                                        >
                                        > From: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com]
                                        > On Behalf Of epicurusradium
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 10:46 AM
                                        > To: HDTV-in-SFbay@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com, Ron Economos <w6rz@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Excellent technical response to PART of the issue, but my secondary
                                        > point was/is that for those folks not having the biggest and best
                                        > outdoor antenna, the reception on some/many antennas, particularly
                                        > good indoor antennas, is such that the VHF portion ie rabbit ears, is
                                        > quite a bit less than the UHF part. Example; the several versions of
                                        > the 'silver sensor' 7 element LPDA with single element dipole (rabbit
                                        > ears).
                                        >
                                        > It is my contention, based on personal experience, that on average,
                                        > actual reception is better on the UHF stations than on those on the
                                        > vhf band. Therefore, even allowing for the afore mentioned general
                                        > advantage in propagation of the lower frequencies it is still smart to
                                        > use the maximum power allowed for vhf, ie 100kw. That to me is
                                        > reasonable and makes good sense.
                                        >
                                        > The 2 indoor antennas which I currently have, and base this on, are
                                        > the Terk HDTVi (with aux low noise amp) and the Winegard
                                        > 'Sharpshooter' SS-3000, which last is, in spite of built in amp, lousy
                                        > on all vhf stations in this area. With the Wineguard I get several UHF
                                        > Sutro tower digital stations and Mt San Bruno also, acceptably -- but
                                        > NO usable reception on any of those operating on vhf - analog or
                                        digital.
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > The "free space" path loss equation is:
                                        > >
                                        > > 32.44 + 20log(d) + 20log(f)
                                        > >
                                        > > with d in kilometers and f in MHz.
                                        > >
                                        > > The center frequency for KNTV-DT on channel 12 is 207 MHz
                                        > >
                                        > > The center frequency for the future KGO-DT on channel 7 is 177 MHz
                                        > >
                                        > > The antenna factor loss at 207 MHz is 46.32 dB
                                        > >
                                        > > The antenna factor loss at 177 MHz is 44.96 dB
                                        > >
                                        > > The difference is 1.36 dB. If KGO-DT and KNTV-DT
                                        > > were at the same transmitter location, then KGO-DT would
                                        > > have to run 75.38 kW to match KNTV-DT's 103.1 kW.
                                        > >
                                        > > At 24 kW, KGO-DT would be 5 dB down from KNTV-DT.
                                        > >
                                        > > In the real world, KNTV-DT delivers a huge signal to many
                                        > > parts of the Bay Area. When I measured the signal level
                                        > > of KNTV-DT in Milpitas, it was 50 dB or so above the
                                        > > TOV (Threshold of Visible errors). As Richard suggests,
                                        > > KGO-DT will have a big signal on channel 7 even at 24 kW.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ron
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Richard Swank wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > KNTV was lucky in some aspects as ch-12 was an open channel in
                                        > > > Northern California. We were able to maximize our power even above
                                        > > > the NTSC replication as a result. This was necessary to provide
                                        city
                                        > > > grade coverage in San Jose which is our city of license or we could
                                        > > > not have moved to Bruno from Loma. We do have a slight pattern
                                        > pull-in
                                        > > > in the direction of Chico from Bruno however as there is another
                                        > > > channel 12 there. I suspect KGO will be fine in replicating their
                                        > > > analog coverage post 2009. If you get ch-7 now you will probably be
                                        > > > able to get ch-7 off of the same antenna post 2009.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > KNTV was unlucky somewhat as we are the only VHF DTV channel in the
                                        > > > market as we speak. It seems the vendors tended to ignore the fact
                                        > > > that DTV is both VHF and UHF and built many quote "DTV antennas"
                                        that
                                        > > > were UHF in design. Of course these antennas put us at a
                                        > disadvantage
                                        > > > as far as gain is concerned. So many viewers in the area have
                                        had to
                                        > > > do dual antennas to get us solidly. We sort of paved the way for
                                        KGO
                                        > > > to go VHF in DTV. Salinas Monterey on the other hand will be mostly
                                        > > > VHF DTV post 2009.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > It's semi-funny in a way but most of the translators that fill
                                        > > > coverage gaps in the analog world are UHF. I suspect in the DTV
                                        > world
                                        > > > most of the translators that fill in coverage gaps will be low
                                        power
                                        > > > VHF DTV transmitters (maybe some will be low band) as a majority of
                                        > > > the DTV stations will be UHF post 2009. This means of course not
                                        > many
                                        > > > channels in this band (UHF) will be interference free for
                                        > translator use.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The FCC by the way is one of the government agencies that are
                                        > > > proficient in my opinion. This addition of DTV and the
                                        transition to
                                        > > > no analog is probably one of the largest undertakings they have
                                        > > > faced. Thank god they used engineering logic and not political
                                        logic
                                        > > > as they proceeded through it. There will be bumps in this whole
                                        > thing
                                        > > > but engineers have a way of working through those if left alone.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > > >
                                        > > > *From:* HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > [mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *epicurusradium
                                        > > > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:37 PM
                                        > > > *To:* HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > *Subject:* [HDTV-in-SFbay] Re: PSIP Craziness???
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Wow, too much data for my little brain fully process!
                                        > > > As I mentioned somewhere above, a relatively recent 'add channels'
                                        > > > scan on the Sony in BDR ('Bravia' KDL-23S2010) added a second
                                        > > > iteration of KTLN 68.1 down on it's actual channel 47.1 I can never
                                        > > > get a pic on this station's digital signal but there has been enough
                                        > > > signal to log it on the digital station list. That has also been
                                        true
                                        > > > of some stations on both of my sets....rarely if ever get a
                                        pic/sound
                                        > > > on some but they do get logged in the tuner's list of available
                                        > stations.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have noticed that ch 36 has displayed NO program info for at
                                        least a
                                        > > > week now. Just noticed another station doing the same - forgot
                                        which.
                                        > > > It's bad enough when there is only minimal info on current program,
                                        > > > but to have none at all......
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Another frustration is KBCW 44.1 - almost never enough signal to be
                                        > > > watchable so I have been watching the analog 44 signal, which is
                                        also
                                        > > > weak, but at least I can follow the program dialog, although last
                                        > > > couple of weeks there has been a lot of fading there too. Maybe
                                        it is
                                        > > > as Richard Swank says; the smoke particles in the air now are
                                        > > > weakening signals some.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hopefully when the changeover happens in Feb the digital
                                        antennas will
                                        > > > be moved up to top of the towers and that will help some..... though
                                        > > > if info on line is correct ABC 7 will only have 21kw and I may
                                        not be
                                        > > > able to get it without a better antenna. I don't understand why the
                                        > > > low power, when NBC 11 (vhf 12) has 100kw.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In HDTV-in-SFbay@ <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > <mailto:HDTV-in-SFbay%40yahoogroups.com>, Larry Kenney <Larry@>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> I've found some rather interesting digital reception problems
                                        lately
                                        > > >> that I thought I'd share with the group. I now have six digital
                                        > > >> tuners - I know, rather outlandish, but it's a hobby - and they all
                                        > > >> behave quite differently, so I suspect some of these situations are
                                        > > >> PSIP related. This post is mainly for those interested in the
                                        > > >> idiosyncracies of digital reception, something I find very
                                        > > >> fascinating, but the rest of you might find this interesting, too.
                                        > > >> You might also be able to receive some new channels you didn't
                                        think
                                        > > >> you could get after reading this.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> FYI, my receivers consist of a Sony XBR2, Sony XBR4, Dish
                                        ViP622, Hi-
                                        > > >> Pix computer card, Win_TV 950 USB stick on my laptop, and a new
                                        > > >> Insignia digital to analog converter box.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> I noticed the first problem a while back. My Hi-Pix computer tuner
                                        > > >> would no longer find KGO on 24-1 or 24-2. It found the main channel
                                        > > >> on 24-3, the next on 24-4 and the weather on 24-5. (This tuner
                                        > > >> doesn't use the PSIP information at all. It has a built-in table
                                        > > >> where the user can assign virtual channel numbers as he sees fit.)
                                        > > >> I then tried tuning to 24-1 on some of my other tuners and got
                                        a good
                                        > > >> signal on some and "No Signal" on others. The ones that found "No
                                        > > >> Signal" on 24-1 found KGO on 24-3, -4 and -5 with the PSIP
                                        converting
                                        > > >> them to 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. What's up with this weirdness? Anyone
                                        > > >> who's in the TV business able to explain this?
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Since that time I've found five new channels on my Sony XBR4
                                        receiver
                                        > > >> that I've never received before by tuning to the -3 position! I
                                        > > >> could never receive channel 62-1, KTFK from Mt. Diablo, but I get a
                                        > > >> nice picture on 62-3 now. The same goes for four Sacramento
                                        > > >> stations: KVIE 6 on 53-3, -4 and -5, KXTV 10 on 61-3 and -4,
                                        KTXL 40
                                        > > >> on 55-3, and KQCA 58 on 46-3. I have been receiving KCRA 3 on 35-1
                                        > > >> and -2, and KMAX 31 on 21-1 for quite some time. (I get no
                                        signal at
                                        > > >> all from KOVR on 25, by the way.)
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Could it be that the signal is not strong enough for the
                                        receiver to
                                        > > >> detect the PSIP information and change these stations to the proper
                                        > > >> channel, yet strong enough to display a picture on the transmitter
                                        > > >> channel? Why am I receiving the stations on -3 and not -1? Some of
                                        > > >> you might try tuning to -3 for some of the more distance stations
                                        > > >> that you don't get with a scan to see if you receive them.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Reinforcing the PSIP detection suspicion is the results
                                        received with
                                        > > >> the new Insignia digital to analog converter box I recently bought.
                                        > > >> It has a very sensitive receiver, but it has no way of
                                        inputting the
                                        > > >> "-3" for a channel when tuning. You tune to 24 and it detects 7-1,
                                        > > >> 7-2 and 7-3, for example. When I tune to some of the weaker
                                        > > >> stations, like 46, 55, and 61, I see signals on the tuning
                                        meter, but
                                        > > >> I don't get any picture. However, on 53 it found 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3
                                        > > >> and on 62 it found 64-1, something the Sony didn't. I also get KFTY
                                        > > >> out of Santa Rosa on the converter box on 54-1, but not on any
                                        of the
                                        > > >> other receivers.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> I've also found that the Insignia converter box is excellent in
                                        > > >> receiving signals at much lower signal levels than any of my other
                                        > > >> receivers, and it handles multipath problems extremely well. Too
                                        > > >> bad it's the one that outputs an analog picture! :)
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Here are a couple of other interesting problems that I suspect are
                                        > > >> PSIP related. On two out of my five tuners, Azteca on 20-4 doesn't
                                        > > >> display now. It says "No Signal", but 20-1 KBWB looks fine. On my
                                        > > >> other three tuners 20-4 is fine. On two of my tuners KTLN will not
                                        > > >> display a picture, despite a strong signal, while it's fine on the
                                        > > >> other receivers. On the converter box, if you tune to 68-1 it
                                        > > >> changes to 47-1, but it doesn't show a picture.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> One last point... the sensitivity of the various tuners varies
                                        > > >> greatly. The tuner in the old Sony XBR2 (2001 model) is nowhere as
                                        > > >> good as the one in the new XBR4 (2007 model) and the two computer
                                        > > >> tuners are very poor at tuning in weaker stations.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> I hope some of you have found this information to be of
                                        interest and
                                        > > >> I hope some of you find some new stations on those -3 channels.
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >> Larry
                                        > > >> SF
                                        > > >>
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Larry Kenney
                                        Thanks, Ron, for the explanation of why most stations use Program 3, but not all of them. Very interesting!
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 16, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Ron, for the explanation of why most stations use Program 3, but not all of them.  Very interesting!

                                          On Jul 16, 2008, at 3:31 AM, Ron Economos wrote:

                                          It's a bit of a history lesson. The original 1995 ATSC specification used
                                          the "program paradigm" where the base_PID = program number << 4
                                          and individual PID's are defined like so:  (snip)


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