Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Spindle runout issue

Expand Messages
  • Eric
    John, 0.01 mm = 0.0004 = pretty darned good in my book for a US$500 mill-drill It s been 14 years since I last had to make anything with a tolerance measured
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 9, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      John,

      0.01 mm = 0.0004" = pretty darned good in my book for a US$500 mill-drill

      It's been 14 years since I last had to make anything with a tolerance
      measured below 0.005" = 0.127 mm

      They were stand-off pads on electrodes in a device similar to a vacuum
      tube, and had to be true and identical to within 0.0001". Our
      machinist and I spent a lot of hours using a large knee mill, then
      hand lapping using a polishing wheel set up for preparing
      metallographic samples for the microscope to get those buggers dialed in

      Even with the end mill runout of 0.06 mm = 0.0024", you are using a
      tool which is more accurate than most people outside of the optics
      business ever need.

      That said, are you polishing lenses or making lens-mounts? I don't
      want to sound flip if you are one of the people who actually needs
      tolerances down in the 0.0001" range...

      Last time I checked my work, with some care in setting up the
      workpiece on the table (the tricks of properly holding tiny workpieces
      have cost me more than a couple of parts as I re-learn this trade), I
      was able to hold tolerances less than 0.010" with my HF version of the
      SIEG X2 - typically to within 0.004" = 0.1 mm

      It all comes down to what you need for your finished product.

      You may want to consider buying a blank collet to fit your holder, and
      turn it - or get a shop to turn - the ID & OD to tighter tolerances
      than what came from the factory in a collet set from India or China.
      This assumes that your collet holder is also true...

      Hope that this helps!

      Eric

      --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "johnkanbear" <johnkannet@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi all, I just bought a mini mill last week and found out that there is
      > about 0.01mm runout inside the MT3 taper, and got about
      > 0.06mm with the 16mm end mill mounted at a collect adapter. is it
      > normal? Thanks!
      >
    • johnkanbear
      Hi Eric, First of all thanks for your reply, I did the wrong calculation between inch and mm before and I saw the drill bit swing while holding at the drill
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 14, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Eric,

        First of all thanks for your reply, I did the wrong calculation
        between inch and mm before and I saw the drill bit swing while
        holding at the drill chuck also the surface of workpiece still quite
        rough after surfacing so I think it had problem.

        Anyway I just replaced the main spindle bearing from the china brand
        (may be difference from yours since I bought the mill from Hong
        Kong) one to the NSK one (class 5), I did the test again and quite
        satisify with the result. There is about 3 times improvement now I
        got only 0.02mm even tested with the 16mm end mill holding in the
        end-mill adaptor like before.

        John

        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eanderson@...> wrote:
        >
        > John,
        >
        > 0.01 mm = 0.0004" = pretty darned good in my book for a US$500
        mill-drill
        >
        > It's been 14 years since I last had to make anything with a
        tolerance
        > measured below 0.005" = 0.127 mm
        >
        > They were stand-off pads on electrodes in a device similar to a
        vacuum
        > tube, and had to be true and identical to within 0.0001". Our
        > machinist and I spent a lot of hours using a large knee mill, then
        > hand lapping using a polishing wheel set up for preparing
        > metallographic samples for the microscope to get those buggers
        dialed in
        >
        > Even with the end mill runout of 0.06 mm = 0.0024", you are using a
        > tool which is more accurate than most people outside of the optics
        > business ever need.
        >
        > That said, are you polishing lenses or making lens-mounts? I don't
        > want to sound flip if you are one of the people who actually needs
        > tolerances down in the 0.0001" range...
        >
        > Last time I checked my work, with some care in setting up the
        > workpiece on the table (the tricks of properly holding tiny
        workpieces
        > have cost me more than a couple of parts as I re-learn this
        trade), I
        > was able to hold tolerances less than 0.010" with my HF version of
        the
        > SIEG X2 - typically to within 0.004" = 0.1 mm
        >
        > It all comes down to what you need for your finished product.
        >
        > You may want to consider buying a blank collet to fit your holder,
        and
        > turn it - or get a shop to turn - the ID & OD to tighter tolerances
        > than what came from the factory in a collet set from India or
        China.
        > This assumes that your collet holder is also true...
        >
        > Hope that this helps!
        >
        > Eric
        >
        > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "johnkanbear" <johnkannet@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi all, I just bought a mini mill last week and found out that
        there is
        > > about 0.01mm runout inside the MT3 taper, and got about
        > > 0.06mm with the 16mm end mill mounted at a collect adapter. is
        it
        > > normal? Thanks!
        > >
        >
      • Eric
        John, Now you have me wondering... I bought my mill from Harbor Freight Tools - usually the cheapest importer of these things... So, I d be pleasantly
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 14, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          John,

          Now you have me wondering... I bought my mill from Harbor Freight
          Tools - usually the cheapest importer of these things... So, I'd be
          pleasantly surprised to find anything other than the low-end Chinese
          bearings in my mill.

          OTOH - I'm getting very nice finishes on aluminum parts, so I'm not
          too concerned, just curious...

          0.02 mm = 0.0008" should be OK for almost anything you'd like to do
          with this machine.

          Happy Milling!

          Eric

          --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "johnkanbear" <johnkannet@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Eric,
          >
          > First of all thanks for your reply, I did the wrong calculation
          > between inch and mm before and I saw the drill bit swing while
          > holding at the drill chuck also the surface of workpiece still quite
          > rough after surfacing so I think it had problem.
          >
          > Anyway I just replaced the main spindle bearing from the china brand
          > (may be difference from yours since I bought the mill from Hong
          > Kong) one to the NSK one (class 5), I did the test again and quite
          > satisify with the result. There is about 3 times improvement now I
          > got only 0.02mm even tested with the 16mm end mill holding in the
          > end-mill adaptor like before.
          >
          > John
          >
          > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eanderson@> wrote:
          > >
          > > John,
          > >
          > > 0.01 mm = 0.0004" = pretty darned good in my book for a US$500
          > mill-drill



          > > This assumes that your collet holder is also true...
          > >
          > > Hope that this helps!
          > >
          > > Eric
          > >
          > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "johnkanbear" <johnkannet@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi all, I just bought a mini mill last week and found out that
          > there is
          > > > about 0.01mm runout inside the MT3 taper, and got about
          > > > 0.06mm with the 16mm end mill mounted at a collect adapter. is
          > it
          > > > normal? Thanks!
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Radish
          ... quite ... brand ... Hi to All, I see that this subject of Spindle Runout has raised it s head once again and that certain persons are worried about the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 15, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            > Hi Eric,
            >
            > First of all thanks for your reply, I did the wrong calculation
            > between inch and mm before and I saw the drill bit swing while
            > holding at the drill chuck also the surface of workpiece still
            quite
            > rough after surfacing so I think it had problem.
            >
            > Anyway I just replaced the main spindle bearing from the china
            brand
            > (may be difference from yours since I bought the mill from Hong
            > Kong) one to the NSK one (class 5), I did the test again and quite
            > satisify with the result. There is about 3 times improvement now I
            > got only 0.02mm even tested with the 16mm end mill holding in the
            > end-mill adaptor like before.
            >
            > John

            Hi to All, I see that this subject of Spindle Runout has raised it's
            head once again and that certain persons are worried about the
            spindle runout that they "seem" to have.
            If a 500 dollar machine has runout of 0.01mm or, 0.0004 thou, I would
            say that's pretty bloody good value for money.
            So, why complain about it and bother to change the chinese bearings
            that are fitted to it from new, with more chinese made bearings and
            then say how good it is after all this mucking around.
            If anybody has ever bothered to check what the runout figures for a
            brand new Bridgeport mill are stated, then why complain about their
            500 dollar purchase not being up to scratch.
            I do own one of these 500 buck cheapies, but I bought it for what the
            machine was intended to do, for hobby work, not for the making of
            bits for NASA.
            If these persons want perfection in a machine, I suggest that they go
            spend 50,000 bucks and get some machine that has zero runout.
            I know that this will get up some persons nose, but that's the way
            that I see it.

            regards radish
          • Edward ward
            Radish wrote: Hi Eric, ... quite ... brand ... Hi to All, I see that this subject of Spindle Runout has raised it s head once
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 15, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Radish <radish1us@...> wrote:
              > Hi Eric,
              >
              > First of all thanks for your reply, I did the wrong calculation
              > between inch and mm before and I saw the drill bit swing while
              > holding at the drill chuck also the surface of workpiece still
              quite
              > rough after surfacing so I think it had problem.
              >
              > Anyway I just replaced the main spindle bearing from the china
              brand
              > (may be difference from yours since I bought the mill from Hong
              > Kong) one to the NSK one (class 5), I
              did the test again and quite
              > satisify with the result. There is about 3 times improvement now I
              > got only 0.02mm even tested with the 16mm end mill holding in the
              > end-mill adaptor like before.
              >
              > John

              Hi to All, I see that this subject of Spindle Runout has raised it's
              head once again and that certain persons are worried about the
              spindle runout that they "seem" to have.
              If a 500 dollar machine has runout of 0.01mm or, 0.0004 thou, I would
              say that's pretty bloody good value for money.
              So, why complain about it and bother to change the chinese bearings
              that are fitted to it from new, with more chinese made bearings and
              then say how good it is after all this mucking around.
              If anybody has ever bothered to check what the runout figures for a
              brand new Bridgeport mill are stated, then why complain about their
              500 dollar purchase not being up to scratch.
              I do own one of these 500 buck cheapies, but I bought it for what the
              machine was intended to do, for hobby work, not for the making of
              bits for NASA.
              If these persons want perfection in a machine, I suggest that they go
              spend 50,000 bucks and get some machine that has zero runout.
              I know that this will get up some persons nose, but that's the way
              that I see it.

              regards radish

              Because many of us machinists are perfectionists who strive to make perfect things and  to perfect that which is not.  


              See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
            • Radish
              ... perfect things and to perfect that which is not. ... Got to wonder that if this is so, or, as another member on this board once stated, are you ACTUALLY
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 15, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                >
                > Because many of us machinists are perfectionists who strive to make
                perfect things and to perfect that which is not.
                >

                Got to wonder that if this is so, or, as another member on this board
                once stated, are you ACTUALLY improving this machine , or, " are you
                really just polishing a TURD ".


                HHMMMmmmm, makes me wonder.

                This machine WAS made for the hobby market, why not just use it as a
                hobby machine, splitting the thou into tenths, is no longer a hobby,
                but actually an obsession.
                I try to achieve a dimension to the thou, at work, but at home, whilst
                making models to a dimension within about five thou is generally quite
                acceptable.
                If anybody is after a tenth of a thou, while doing work on these
                machines, perhaps they would be better off getting a job as a
                toolmaker, who attempts to achieve a tenth of a thou, but is quite
                happy, if he can just split the thou to the recommended tolerance that
                the drawing calls for.
                By the way, the machines that the toolmaker uses, do just happen to
                cost a little bit more that 500 bucks each.

                Just a bit more food for thought!!!!!.


                regards radish
              • Edward ward
                With the column supported front,and back, z axis feed screw mod,anti-bachlash nuts, adjustable air spring for head support, and bronze moly impregnated gibs,
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 16, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  With the column supported front,and back, z axis feed screw mod,anti-bachlash nuts,
                  adjustable air spring for head support, and bronze moly impregnated gibs, with an internaly gauged runout of .00025  I would hardly call my machine a turd. Also this machine will help me make that 50,000 dollars for that new machine.
                  Radish <radish1us@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Because many of us machinists are perfectionists who strive to make
                  perfect things and to perfect that which is not.
                  >

                  Got to wonder that if this is so, or, as another member on this board
                  once stated, are you ACTUALLY improving this machine , or, " are you
                  really just polishing a TURD ".

                  HHMMMmmmm, makes me wonder.

                  This machine WAS made for the hobby market, why not just use it as a
                  hobby machine, splitting the thou into tenths, is no longer a hobby,
                  but actually an obsession.
                  I try to achieve a dimension to the thou, at work, but at home, whilst
                  making models to a dimension within about five thou is generally quite
                  acceptable.
                  If anybody is after a tenth of a thou, while doing work on these
                  machines, perhaps they would be better off getting a job as a
                  toolmaker, who attempts to achieve a tenth of a thou, but is quite
                  happy, if he can just split the thou to the recommended tolerance that
                  the drawing calls for.
                  By the way, the machines that the toolmaker uses, do just happen to
                  cost a little bit more that 500 bucks each.

                  Just a bit more food for thought!!!!! .

                  regards radish



                  How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

                • Radish
                  ... mod,anti-bachlash nuts, ... gibs, with an internaly gauged runout of .00025 I would hardly call my machine a turd. Also this machine will help me make
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 16, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Edward ward <qunungnauraq@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > With the column supported front,and back, z axis feed screw
                    mod,anti-bachlash nuts,
                    > adjustable air spring for head support, and bronze moly impregnated
                    gibs, with an internaly gauged runout of .00025 I would hardly call
                    my machine a turd. Also this machine will help me make that 50,000
                    dollars for that new machine.


                    OOOOpps, forgot "ALL ABOUT" - all - of these other expensive mods
                    that others have decided to accomplish, wonder if it would have been
                    more time saving and LESS expensive, to have bought a bigger machine
                    in the first place, that does not require all this mucking around.

                    AAaahhh well, back out to the shed with my 500 buck special and
                    suppose I'll now have more time for the models, without having to do
                    with all these extra bits and bobs, that seem to be needed for this
                    chinese el-cheapo turd, that does all that I ask of it.

                    regards radish
                  • Jack
                    There s two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them costs $50,000 in actual money. Many of us have chosen the other way...it s called sweat equity -
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 17, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them costs
                      $50,000 in actual money.

                      Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat equity' -
                      what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we polish our
                      turds until they shine.

                      And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had to do the
                      work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could pay off
                      that $50,000 credit card.
                      Jack



                      > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Edward ward <qunungnauraq@>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > I would hardly call
                      > my machine a turd. Also this machine will help me make that 50,000
                      > dollars for that new machine.
                      >
                    • loud3803
                      I don t see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to make their machine as accurate as possible I think that s great! I myself am making a sterling hot
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 18, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to make
                        their machine as accurate as possible I think that's great!
                        I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the tolerances of which
                        are measured in the very low thousanths. The greater the degree of
                        accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance of my engines.

                        Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them very usefull.

                        Louis


                        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jacktarr68@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them costs
                        > $50,000 in actual money.
                        >
                        > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat equity' -
                        > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we polish our
                        > turds until they shine.
                        >
                        > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had to do
                        the
                        > work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could pay off
                        > that $50,000 credit card.
                        > Jack
                        >
                      • Dave
                        Be sure to post some pictures of your Stirling when your done. I m making the patterns so I can cast most of the parts for a horizontal Stirling. Thought it
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 18, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Be sure to post some pictures of your Stirling when your done. I'm
                          making the patterns so I can cast most of the parts for a horizontal
                          Stirling. Thought it might look good if I kept the old world look to
                          it.


                          --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "loud3803" <loud3803@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to make
                          > their machine as accurate as possible I think that's great!
                          > I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the tolerances of
                          which
                          > are measured in the very low thousanths. The greater the degree of
                          > accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance of my engines.
                          >
                          > Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them very usefull.
                          >
                          > Louis
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jacktarr68@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them
                          costs
                          > > $50,000 in actual money.
                          > >
                          > > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat
                          equity' -
                          > > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we polish
                          our
                          > > turds until they shine.
                          > >
                          > > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had to
                          do
                          > the
                          > > work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could pay
                          off
                          > > that $50,000 credit card.
                          > > Jack
                          > >
                          >
                        • Jack
                          No fuss at all - just a meeting of opposite opinions With a mill and a lathe and perhaps a casting setup, you should be able to make anything - including a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 18, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            No fuss at all - just a meeting of opposite opinions

                            With a mill and a lathe and perhaps a casting setup, you should be
                            able to make anything - including a better lathe or mill. Provided
                            the inaccuracies of the machine are known, you can 'work around' them
                            to produce better accuracy in your product.

                            Remember - starting from no machines at all, people have developed
                            all the accuracy we can get. Early, highly inaccurate machines were
                            used to produce newer more accurate machines, which themselves were
                            used to produce the next generation and so forth, until we have those
                            $50,000 machines that can be used to engrave your initials on a gnats
                            eyelash.

                            Some people want to do high-precision work. Others want to do
                            interesting stuff that needs little precision. These two requirements
                            don't actually clash.
                            Jack





                            --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "loud3803" <loud3803@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to make
                            > their machine as accurate as possible I think that's great!
                            > I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the tolerances of
                            which
                            > are measured in the very low thousanths. The greater the degree of
                            > accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance of my engines.
                            >
                            > Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them very usefull.
                            >
                            > Louis
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jacktarr68@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them costs
                            > > $50,000 in actual money.
                            > >
                            > > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat
                            equity' -
                            > > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we polish
                            our
                            > > turds until they shine.
                            > >
                            > > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had to do
                            > the
                            > > work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could pay off
                            > > that $50,000 credit card.
                            > > Jack
                            > >
                            >
                          • steveh8861
                            I m also building a horizontal stirling at the moment. I have a few pics posted at the HSM forum in this thread-
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 18, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm also building a horizontal stirling at the moment.
                              I have a few pics posted at the HSM forum in this thread-
                              http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=19922

                              I have made many very nice parts on my mini mill and now that it is
                              cnc'd it is a quite capable little buggersnot turd of a machine.
                              I think a lot of members and that includes me, are or were pretty new
                              to machining when they bought a mini mill. Working on and improving
                              the machine is a great way to learn.

                              Some of it is just in ones personality. I can't look at a lawn mower
                              without trying to modify it to be better. Infact and I'm going off on
                              a tangent now, I was messing with adding nitro methane in my leaf blower.
                              Very cool experiment,ha ha!
                              I have decided after I finish this engine I am going to CNC my new X3
                              mill( bigger and better turd) and put some more time and effort into
                              polishing and modifying the rest of my imported turd collection.
                              Steve- the turd polisher.




                              -
                              -- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Be sure to post some pictures of your Stirling when your done. I'm
                              > making the patterns so I can cast most of the parts for a horizontal
                              > Stirling. Thought it might look good if I kept the old world look to
                              > it.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "loud3803" <loud3803@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to make
                              > > their machine as accurate as possible I think that's great!
                              > > I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the tolerances of
                              > which
                              > > are measured in the very low thousanths. The greater the degree of
                              > > accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance of my engines.
                              > >
                              > > Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them very usefull.
                              > >
                              > > Louis
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jacktarr68@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them
                              > costs
                              > > > $50,000 in actual money.
                              > > >
                              > > > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat
                              > equity' -
                              > > > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we polish
                              > our
                              > > > turds until they shine.
                              > > >
                              > > > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had to
                              > do
                              > > the
                              > > > work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could pay
                              > off
                              > > > that $50,000 credit card.
                              > > > Jack
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Barry Young
                              Hi Jack: Ummmm, actually, that aint the case. Some of the very first machines were just as accurate and precise as the manual machines we have today. Since the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 19, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Jack:

                                Ummmm, actually, that aint the case. Some of the very
                                first machines were just as accurate and precise as
                                the manual machines we have today. Since the change
                                from wooden frames to cast iron prior to the
                                industrial revolution people like Henry Maudslay,
                                Jesse Ramsden and James Naysmyth were building
                                exceedingly accurate machines right at the beginning.
                                It would be much more accurate to say the wonderful
                                machines these people and people like them made
                                cranked out the crappy machines.

                                I would like to recommend a book to everyone. English
                                & American Tool Builders, by Joseph Wickham Roe
                                available at:

                                http://www.mjdtools.com/books/126257.htm

                                It is truly a fascinating read for anyone interested
                                in machine tool history. I made my apprentices read it
                                when I was teaching shop theory for the National
                                Tooling and Machining Association. They hated it, but
                                years later when I run into them in some machine shop
                                I work in, they tell me they learned more during the
                                machine tool history section of the classes than any
                                other.

                                Maudslay in particular was a precision freak. He made
                                a bench micrometer he called "the Lord Chancellor"
                                prior to the year 1815 which would measure to .0001
                                inch. This was at a time when most machine endeavors
                                measured to "a 64th".

                                OK, nuff said.

                                Barry Young
                                Young Camera Company

                                --- Jack <jacktarr68@...> wrote:

                                > No fuss at all - just a meeting of opposite opinions
                                >
                                > With a mill and a lathe and perhaps a casting setup,
                                > you should be
                                > able to make anything - including a better lathe or
                                > mill. Provided
                                > the inaccuracies of the machine are known, you can
                                > 'work around' them
                                > to produce better accuracy in your product.
                                >
                                > Remember - starting from no machines at all, people
                                > have developed
                                > all the accuracy we can get. Early, highly
                                > inaccurate machines were
                                > used to produce newer more accurate machines, which
                                > themselves were
                                > used to produce the next generation and so forth,
                                > until we have those
                                > $50,000 machines that can be used to engrave your
                                > initials on a gnats
                                > eyelash.
                                >
                                > Some people want to do high-precision work. Others
                                > want to do
                                > interesting stuff that needs little precision. These
                                > two requirements
                                > don't actually clash.
                                > Jack
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "loud3803"
                                > <loud3803@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a
                                > person wants to make
                                > > their machine as accurate as possible I think
                                > that's great!
                                > > I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the
                                > tolerances of
                                > which
                                > > are measured in the very low thousanths. The
                                > greater the degree of
                                > > accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance
                                > of my engines.
                                > >
                                > > Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them
                                > very usefull.
                                > >
                                > > Louis
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack"
                                > <jacktarr68@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only
                                > one of them costs
                                > > > $50,000 in actual money.
                                > > >
                                > > > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's
                                > called 'sweat
                                > equity' -
                                > > > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in
                                > WORK, and we polish
                                > our
                                > > > turds until they shine.
                                > > >
                                > > > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his
                                > machine STILL had to do
                                > > the
                                > > > work...he just chose to do it some place else so
                                > he could pay off
                                > > > that $50,000 credit card.
                                > > > Jack
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                > GrizHFMinimill-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                http://mail.yahoo.com
                              • Dave
                                Nice job, looks like we re building the same engine. I m casting as many pieces as I can, for a more turn of the century look. ... new ... mower ... on ...
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 19, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Nice job, looks like we're building the same engine. I'm casting as
                                  many pieces as I can, for a more "turn of the century" look.


                                  --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "steveh8861" <steveh8861@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I'm also building a horizontal stirling at the moment.
                                  > I have a few pics posted at the HSM forum in this thread-
                                  > http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=19922
                                  >
                                  > I have made many very nice parts on my mini mill and now that it is
                                  > cnc'd it is a quite capable little buggersnot turd of a machine.
                                  > I think a lot of members and that includes me, are or were pretty
                                  new
                                  > to machining when they bought a mini mill. Working on and improving
                                  > the machine is a great way to learn.
                                  >
                                  > Some of it is just in ones personality. I can't look at a lawn
                                  mower
                                  > without trying to modify it to be better. Infact and I'm going off
                                  on
                                  > a tangent now, I was messing with adding nitro methane in my leaf
                                  blower.
                                  > Very cool experiment,ha ha!
                                  > I have decided after I finish this engine I am going to CNC my new
                                  X3
                                  > mill( bigger and better turd) and put some more time and effort
                                  into
                                  > polishing and modifying the rest of my imported turd collection.
                                  > Steve- the turd polisher.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -
                                  > -- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Be sure to post some pictures of your Stirling when your done.
                                  I'm
                                  > > making the patterns so I can cast most of the parts for a
                                  horizontal
                                  > > Stirling. Thought it might look good if I kept the old world
                                  look to
                                  > > it.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "loud3803" <loud3803@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I don't see what all the fuss is about, if a person wants to
                                  make
                                  > > > their machine as accurate as possible I think that's great!
                                  > > > I myself am making a sterling hot air engine the tolerances
                                  of
                                  > > which
                                  > > > are measured in the very low thousanths. The greater the
                                  degree of
                                  > > > accuracy on my "turd" the better the performance of my engines.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Keep posting turd upgrades, some of us find them very
                                  usefull.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Louis
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Jack" <jacktarr68@>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > There's two ways to get a $50,000 machine. Only one of them
                                  > > costs
                                  > > > > $50,000 in actual money.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Many of us have chosen the other way...it's called 'sweat
                                  > > equity' -
                                  > > > > what we didn't put up as money, we put up in WORK, and we
                                  polish
                                  > > our
                                  > > > > turds until they shine.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > And even the guy who paid $50,000 for his machine STILL had
                                  to
                                  > > do
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > work...he just chose to do it some place else so he could
                                  pay
                                  > > off
                                  > > > > that $50,000 credit card.
                                  > > > > Jack
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Jack
                                  That s the kind of improvement I was talking about. And the change from oiled wood bearings to steel ball and roller bearings and the change from hand-cranked
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 19, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    That's the kind of improvement I was talking about.

                                    And the change from oiled wood bearings to steel ball and roller
                                    bearings and the change from hand-cranked and treadle to water-wheel,
                                    and the change from cat-head to scroll chuck, and the invention of
                                    the cranked X-Y and learning how to get rid of the backlash and the
                                    runout. None of which happened in any short period of time.

                                    If you started by building a hand-cranked lathe with wooden bed,
                                    oiled wood bearings, cathead and no X-Y, you could still use it to
                                    make a better lathe.

                                    The VERY first lathe (now THERE was an invention to rival the wheel
                                    and fire!)- would have been lucky to be able to cut 'accurately'
                                    within a quarter inch!

                                    And our cheap crappy machines today are only crappy by modern
                                    standards and then only until they are corrected. What we buy from
                                    Jet or HF et al is, in essence, an unfinished machine, and many of us
                                    get great pleasure from finishing the job started by the manufacturer.

                                    Which is, of course, where we got going on this aspect of the topic.
                                    Jack




                                    --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young <barryjyoung@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jack:
                                    >
                                    > Since the change from wooden frames to cast iron prior to the
                                    > industrial revolution
                                  • Barry Young
                                    OK Jack, fair enough. I agree. A pole lathe would not be a precision instrument. Barry ... http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/RUTolB/TM ...
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 20, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      OK Jack, fair enough. I agree. A pole lathe would not
                                      be a precision instrument.

                                      Barry



                                      --- Jack <jacktarr68@...> wrote:

                                      > That's the kind of improvement I was talking about.
                                      >
                                      > And the change from oiled wood bearings to steel
                                      > ball and roller
                                      > bearings and the change from hand-cranked and
                                      > treadle to water-wheel,
                                      > and the change from cat-head to scroll chuck, and
                                      > the invention of
                                      > the cranked X-Y and learning how to get rid of the
                                      > backlash and the
                                      > runout. None of which happened in any short period
                                      > of time.
                                      >
                                      > If you started by building a hand-cranked lathe with
                                      > wooden bed,
                                      > oiled wood bearings, cathead and no X-Y, you could
                                      > still use it to
                                      > make a better lathe.
                                      >
                                      > The VERY first lathe (now THERE was an invention to
                                      > rival the wheel
                                      > and fire!)- would have been lucky to be able to cut
                                      > 'accurately'
                                      > within a quarter inch!
                                      >
                                      > And our cheap crappy machines today are only crappy
                                      > by modern
                                      > standards and then only until they are corrected.
                                      > What we buy from
                                      > Jet or HF et al is, in essence, an unfinished
                                      > machine, and many of us
                                      > get great pleasure from finishing the job started by
                                      > the manufacturer.
                                      >
                                      > Which is, of course, where we got going on this
                                      > aspect of the topic.
                                      > Jack
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young
                                      > <barryjyoung@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Jack:
                                      > >
                                      > > Since the change from wooden frames to cast iron
                                      > prior to the
                                      > > industrial revolution
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > --------------------~-->
                                      > See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
                                      >
                                      http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/RUTolB/TM
                                      >
                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > GrizHFMinimill-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    • pb10k
                                      OK Jack, fair enough. I agree. A pole lathe would not be a precision instrument. Barry Barry: I m kinda tempted to build a great wheel lathe. Really! But how
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 20, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        "OK Jack, fair enough. I agree. A pole lathe would not be a precision
                                        instrument. Barry"

                                        Barry:
                                        I'm kinda tempted to build a great wheel lathe. Really!
                                        But how do I convince the neighbors that it's fun to turn that thing
                                        while I stand there and do my work? LOL
                                        But back on topic:
                                        how many of us would have purchased an X2 if we thought something
                                        better was available? I would have probably purchased something else.
                                        But.....
                                        I didn't see anything else in the size/weight or R-8 spindle.
                                        AND
                                        ther is this group and the photos of what all you wizards do to
                                        improve these rough iron kits is a big plus to anyone considering a
                                        purchase.
                                        Percy B.



                                        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young <barryjyoung@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > OK Jack, fair enough. I agree. A pole lathe would not
                                        > be a precision instrument.
                                        >
                                        > Barry
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- Jack <jacktarr68@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > That's the kind of improvement I was talking about.
                                        > >
                                        > > And the change from oiled wood bearings to steel
                                        > > ball and roller
                                        > > bearings and the change from hand-cranked and
                                        > > treadle to water-wheel,
                                        > > and the change from cat-head to scroll chuck, and
                                        > > the invention of
                                        > > the cranked X-Y and learning how to get rid of the
                                        > > backlash and the
                                        > > runout. None of which happened in any short period
                                        > > of time.
                                        > >
                                        > > If you started by building a hand-cranked lathe with
                                        > > wooden bed,
                                        > > oiled wood bearings, cathead and no X-Y, you could
                                        > > still use it to
                                        > > make a better lathe.
                                        > >
                                        > > The VERY first lathe (now THERE was an invention to
                                        > > rival the wheel
                                        > > and fire!)- would have been lucky to be able to cut
                                        > > 'accurately'
                                        > > within a quarter inch!
                                        > >
                                        > > And our cheap crappy machines today are only crappy
                                        > > by modern
                                        > > standards and then only until they are corrected.
                                        > > What we buy from
                                        > > Jet or HF et al is, in essence, an unfinished
                                        > > machine, and many of us
                                        > > get great pleasure from finishing the job started by
                                        > > the manufacturer.
                                        > >
                                        > > Which is, of course, where we got going on this
                                        > > aspect of the topic.
                                        > > Jack
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young
                                        > > <barryjyoung@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi Jack:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Since the change from wooden frames to cast iron
                                        > > prior to the
                                        > > > industrial revolution
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                        > > --------------------~-->
                                        > > See what's inside the new Yahoo! Groups email.
                                        > >
                                        > http://us.click.yahoo.com/2pRQfA/bOaOAA/yQLSAA/RUTolB/TM
                                        > >
                                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        ~->
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > GrizHFMinimill-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        >
                                      • wildemone
                                        ... I have to agree that between this group and the mini-mill & 9x20 lathe yahoo groups and especially the Cletus Berkley manuals [hint: we need one for the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 21, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > But back on topic:
                                          > how many of us would have purchased an X2 if we thought something
                                          > better was available? I would have probably purchased something else.
                                          > But.....
                                          > I didn't see anything else in the size/weight or R-8 spindle.
                                          > AND there is this group and the photos of what all you wizards do to
                                          > improve these rough iron kits is a big plus to anyone considering a
                                          > purchase.
                                          > Percy B.

                                          I have to agree that between this group and the mini-mill & 9x20 lathe
                                          yahoo groups and especially the Cletus Berkley manuals [hint: we need
                                          one for the mill!] I feel like I have a doctorate degree in metals.
                                          The experience & knowledge of the members together with their
                                          willingness to explain over & over is truly valuable. The machines I
                                          bought both came locally from Harbor Freight and both were built
                                          better than a lot of members got just a few years ago. For me they are
                                          hobby tools not wage-earning and I certainly do not have infinite shop
                                          space for professional [big]iron. These are just right and a lot of
                                          fun!
                                          William Fisher
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.