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S x2 ptoblem

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  • superc_53
    I used my SX2 for some endmill work 3 weeks ago. It worked perfect. Today I decided to flycut a slab. I switched heads and turned it on. It ran at speed
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
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      I used my SX2 for some endmill work 3 weeks ago.  It worked perfect.  Today I decided to flycut a slab.  I switched heads and turned it on.  It ran at speed (with the flycutter not yet in contact with the metal) for a few seconds, then stopped with a clunk and the fault light came on.  I'm like what?  A few seconds later the fault light goes out by itself and the head begins turning at speed again, runs a few seconds, then Clunk and it stops again and the fault light comes on and it all repeats again.  Over and over.  I tried taking the flycutter off and running it with nothing in it, but exactly  the same behavior.  So it ain't about the tool head.  Has anyone had this happen before?  Is it in the fan belt or what?  Yeah I know I need to start ripping things apart, but I am hoping someone has been there, done that and can point me in a good direction.  Pulley, bearings, motor?  Assistance requested.
    • gerry waclawiak
      I ve got the older X2 with 2 speed and gear drive but on both types the control board protects itself and the motor from current overload by tripping and
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
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        I've got the older X2 with 2 speed and gear drive but on both types the control board protects itself and the motor from current overload by tripping and showing the amber light.

        The board is generally pretty reliable so suspect a mechanical cause. It's obviously not cutter load related so I would look at a spindle obstruction (locking pin?) or bad bearings on the spindle or motor

        Gerry W
        Leeds UK ________________________________
        > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
        > From: superc_53@...
        > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:09:45 -0700
        > Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] S x2 ptoblem
        >
        >
        >
        > I used my SX2 for some endmill work 3 weeks ago. It worked perfect.
        > Today I decided to flycut a slab. I switched heads and turned it on.
        > It ran at speed (with the flycutter not yet in contact with the metal)
        > for a few seconds, then stopped with a clunk and the fault light came
        > on. I'm like what? A few seconds later the fault light goes out by
        > itself and the head begins turning at speed again, runs a few seconds,
        > then Clunk and it stops again and the fault light comes on and it all
        > repeats again. Over and over. I tried taking the flycutter off and
        > running it with nothing in it, but exactly the same behavior. So it
        > ain't about the tool head. Has anyone had this happen before? Is it
        > in the fan belt or what? Yeah I know I need to start ripping things
        > apart, but I am hoping someone has been there, done that and can point
        > me in a good direction. Pulley, bearings, motor? Assistance
        > requested.
        >
        >
      • Chris Wood
        It’s probably not mechanical, but be sure the spindle turns freely. There is a good chance there is a loose connection. Open both control boxes and be sure
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
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          It’s probably not mechanical, but be sure the spindle turns freely.

           

          There is a good chance there is a loose connection. Open both control boxes and be sure all the plugs are fully inserted and the screw terminals are tight.

           

          Regards,

           

          Chris Wood
          LittleMachineShop.com

          The premier source of tooling, parts, and accessories for bench top machinists.
          396 W. Washington Blvd. #500, Pasadena, CA 91103
          (800)981-9663 * Fax (626)797-7934

           

           

           

          From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of superc_53@...
          Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:10 AM
          To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] S x2 ptoblem

           

           

          I used my SX2 for some endmill work 3 weeks ago.  It worked perfect.  Today I decided to flycut a slab.  I switched heads and turned it on.  It ran at speed (with the flycutter not yet in contact with the metal) for a few seconds, then stopped with a clunk and the fault light came on.  I'm like what?  A few seconds later the fault light goes out by itself and the head begins turning at speed again, runs a few seconds, then Clunk and it stops again and the fault light comes on and it all repeats again.  Over and over.  I tried taking the flycutter off and running it with nothing in it, but exactly  the same behavior.  So it ain't about the tool head.  Has anyone had this happen before?  Is it in the fan belt or what?  Yeah I know I need to start ripping things apart, but I am hoping someone has been there, done that and can point me in a good direction.  Pulley, bearings, motor?  Assistance requested.

        • superc_53
          Okay. Problem solved and I feel really dumb. Middle of the day I went back down to the mill and got my tools and turned it on one last time. Concept was to
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
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            Okay.  Problem solved and I feel really dumb.

            Middle of the day I went back down to the mill and got my tools and turned it on one last time.  Concept was to put one hand on the spindle end and the other on the motor housing and see if I could detect which one vibrated first as an alternative to disassembling everything. 

            Kind of surprised when nothing unusual happened.  The spindle spun very nicely with no clunks whatsoever.  So, I stopped everything and put the end mill back in and tried again.  Flawless operation.

            All thoughts of totally disassembling the spindle head and motor housing now went on hold while I went and got a cup of coffee and pondered the discrepant behavior.

            Something was different between yesterday and today and the last time the mill ran perfectly before.

            The last time was also night time just like last night.  It ran fine then, but not last night.  Today it runs fine again.  Only difference I could think of was last night I..   Oh!  I wonder if?    Last night was cold so I plugged the 50K BTU torpedo heater into the same wall outlet to heat the basement up while I milled.  Today the basement is already warm, so the heater is not sharing the wall socket.

            I started the mill and plugged the heater into the wall socket.  The heater started and a few seconds later the mill went CLUNK and the fault light came on and the mill stopped.  Then a few seconds later the fault light went out and the spindle began spinning again.   About 4 seconds later, CLUNK and the mill stopped again and the fault light came on.

            I unplugged the kerosene heater and the mill ran just fine.  The outlet is a 20 amp GFI box.

            I was thinking it was about current, but when I plugged in my watt/amp meter I see the SX2 actually uses way less than 500 watts.  Varying the speed varies the current load but it never passed 3 amps draw even at maximum 2500 speed.  Likewise the kerosene heater uses only about 1.4 amps.  Nevertheless the two devices somehow conflict when on the same line. 

            Resolution?  I plugged the kerosene heater into a different wall outlet.
            I will leave it to brainier folks than me to figure out why the two devices are incompatible when on the same outlet box.  All I care about is the mill works and I have no need to take it apart.






             
          • Quan hd
            My name Quan, I live in Hanoi, Vietnam. I bought Chinese mini mill XD9512 (X2 clone one)from Nov 2013 and 2 months ago my mill had same behaviors as your. I
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 28, 2014
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              My name Quan, I live in Hanoi, Vietnam. I bought Chinese mini mill XD9512 (X2 clone one)from Nov 2013 and 2 months ago my mill had same behaviors as your. I paid 4 days to troubleshoot and the cause of these behaviors was not reliable contact of normal open (NO) contacts of relay on the KZGS230-EMI board (see picture). Solution was simple: remove relay cover and clean NO contacts by fine sandpaper. Hope this will help you.

            • Quan hd
              Resend the picture have been truncated On Friday, March 28, 2014 3:18 PM, Quan hd wrote: My name Quan, I live in Hanoi, Vietnam. I bought
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 28, 2014
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              Resend the picture have been truncated



              On Friday, March 28, 2014 3:18 PM, Quan hd <quan_h_d@...> wrote:
              My name Quan, I live in Hanoi, Vietnam. I bought Chinese mini mill XD9512 (X2 clone one)from Nov 2013 and 2 months ago my mill had same behaviors as your. I paid 4 days to troubleshoot and the cause of these behaviors was not reliable contact of normal open (NO) contacts of relay on the KZGS230-EMI board (see picture). Solution was simple: remove relay cover and clean NO contacts by fine sandpaper. Hope this will help you.


              Best Regards

              Quan


              On Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:22 PM, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:
              I've got the older X2 with 2 speed and gear drive but on both types the control board protects itself and the motor from current overload by tripping and showing the amber light.

              The board is generally pretty reliable so suspect a mechanical cause. It's obviously not cutter load related so I would look at a spindle obstruction (locking pin?) or bad bearings on the spindle or motor

              Gerry W
              Leeds UK ________________________________

              > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
              > From: superc_53@...
              > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 08:09:45 -0700
              > Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] S x2 ptoblem



              > I used my SX2 for some endmill work 3 weeks ago.  It worked perfect. 
              > Today I decided to flycut a slab.  I switched heads and turned it on. 
              > It ran at speed (with the flycutter not yet in contact with the metal) 
              > for a few seconds, then stopped with a clunk and the fault light came 
              > on.  I'm like what?  A few seconds later the fault light goes out by 
              > itself and the head begins turning at speed again, runs a few seconds, 
              > then Clunk and it stops again and the fault light comes on and it all 
              > repeats again.  Over and over.  I tried taking the flycutter off and 
              > running it with nothing in it, but exactly  the same behavior.  So it 
              > ain't about the tool head.  Has anyone had this happen before?  Is it 
              > in the fan belt or what?  Yeah I know I need to start ripping things 
              > apart, but I am hoping someone has been there, done that and can point 
              > me in a good direction.  Pulley, bearings, motor?  Assistance 
              > requested.


              >                         

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            • gerry waclawiak
              Glad you sorted things out. I would never have thought of something like that causing a problem Gerry W Leeds UK________________________________
              Message 7 of 10 , Mar 28, 2014
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                Glad you sorted things out. I would never have thought of something like that causing a problem

                Gerry W
                Leeds UK________________________________
                > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                > From: superc_53@...
                > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:05:55 -0700
                > Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: S x2 ptoblem
                >
                >
                >
                > Okay. Problem solved and I feel really dumb.
                >
                > Middle of the day I went back down to the mill and got my tools and
                > turned it on one last time. Concept was to put one hand on the spindle
                > end and the other on the motor housing and see if I could detect which
                > one vibrated first as an alternative to disassembling everything.
                >
                > Kind of surprised when nothing unusual happened. The spindle spun very
                > nicely with no clunks whatsoever. So, I stopped everything and put the
                > end mill back in and tried again. Flawless operation.
                >
                > All thoughts of totally disassembling the spindle head and motor
                > housing now went on hold while I went and got a cup of coffee and
                > pondered the discrepant behavior.
                > [https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo71.gif%5d
                > Something was different between yesterday and today and the last time
                > the mill ran perfectly before.
                >
                > The last time was also night time just like last night. It ran fine
                > then, but not last night. Today it runs fine again. Only difference I
                > could think of was last night I.. Oh! I wonder if? Last night was
                > cold so I plugged the 50K BTU torpedo heater into the same wall outlet
                > to heat the basement up while I milled. Today the basement is already
                > warm, so the heater is not sharing the wall socket.
                >
                > I started the mill and plugged the heater into the wall socket. The
                > heater started and a few seconds later the mill went CLUNK and the
                > fault light came on and the mill stopped. Then a few seconds later the
                > fault light went out and the spindle began spinning again. About 4
                > seconds later, CLUNK and the mill stopped again and the fault light
                > came on.
                >
                > I unplugged the kerosene heater and the mill ran just fine. The outlet
                > is a 20 amp GFI box.
                >
                > I was thinking it was about current, but when I plugged in my watt/amp
                > meter I see the SX2 actually uses way less than 500 watts. Varying the
                > speed varies the current load but it never passed 3 amps draw even at
                > maximum 2500 speed. Likewise the kerosene heater uses only about 1.4
                > amps. Nevertheless the two devices somehow conflict when on the same
                > line.
                >
                > Resolution? I plugged the kerosene heater into a different wall outlet.
                > I will leave it to brainier folks than me to figure out why the two
                > devices are incompatible when on the same outlet box. All I care about
                > is the mill works and I have no need to take it apart.
                >
                > [https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo1.gif%5d
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Robert Furmanak
                Hello, Does your heater have a continuous ignition? If so, they can put out a considerable amount of electrical interference. That is my guess as to the source
                Message 8 of 10 , Mar 28, 2014
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                  Hello,

                  Does your heater have a continuous ignition? If so, they can put out a
                  considerable amount of electrical interference. That is my guess as to the
                  source of your problem.

                  Regards,

                  Robert


                  > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: superc_53@...
                  > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:05:55 -0700
                  > Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: S x2 ptoblem
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Okay. Problem solved and I feel really dumb.
                  >
                  > Middle of the day I went back down to the mill and got my tools and
                  > turned it on one last time. Concept was to put one hand on the spindle
                  > end and the other on the motor housing and see if I could detect which
                  > one vibrated first as an alternative to disassembling everything.
                  >
                  > Kind of surprised when nothing unusual happened. The spindle spun very
                  > nicely with no clunks whatsoever. So, I stopped everything and put the
                  > end mill back in and tried again. Flawless operation.
                  >
                  > All thoughts of totally disassembling the spindle head and motor
                  > housing now went on hold while I went and got a cup of coffee and
                  > pondered the discrepant behavior.
                  > [https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo71.gif%5d
                  > Something was different between yesterday and today and the last time
                  > the mill ran perfectly before.
                  >
                  > The last time was also night time just like last night. It ran fine
                  > then, but not last night. Today it runs fine again. Only difference I
                  > could think of was last night I.. Oh! I wonder if? Last night was
                  > cold so I plugged the 50K BTU torpedo heater into the same wall outlet
                  > to heat the basement up while I milled. Today the basement is already
                  > warm, so the heater is not sharing the wall socket.
                  >
                  > I started the mill and plugged the heater into the wall socket. The
                  > heater started and a few seconds later the mill went CLUNK and the
                  > fault light came on and the mill stopped. Then a few seconds later the
                  > fault light went out and the spindle began spinning again. About 4
                  > seconds later, CLUNK and the mill stopped again and the fault light
                  > came on.
                  >
                  > I unplugged the kerosene heater and the mill ran just fine. The outlet
                  > is a 20 amp GFI box.
                  >
                  > I was thinking it was about current, but when I plugged in my watt/amp
                  > meter I see the SX2 actually uses way less than 500 watts. Varying the
                  > speed varies the current load but it never passed 3 amps draw even at
                  > maximum 2500 speed. Likewise the kerosene heater uses only about 1.4
                  > amps. Nevertheless the two devices somehow conflict when on the same
                  > line.
                  >
                  > Resolution? I plugged the kerosene heater into a different wall outlet.
                  > I will leave it to brainier folks than me to figure out why the two
                  > devices are incompatible when on the same outlet box. All I care about
                  > is the mill works and I have no need to take it apart.
                  >
                  > [https://s.yimg.com/ok/u/assets/img/emoticons/emo1.gif%5d
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  ------------------------------------

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                • markkimball2000
                  That s not something to kick yourself for. Intermittent problems can be the very devil to figure out -- so I say, well done! . Your observation, hypothesis
                  Message 9 of 10 , Mar 29, 2014
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                    That's not something to kick yourself for.  Intermittent problems can be the very devil to figure out -- so I say, "well done!".  Your observation, hypothesis and testing of that hypothesis were spot on.

                    When something becomes obvious (in hindsight) you can be pretty sure you've nailed it.  And I bet you don't forget it, either :)

                    Mark
                  • superc_53
                    Thanks guys. Yes the heater has a constant ignition sparker. Also has a continualously running pump. Yeah I arrived at the same conclusion. The mill s
                    Message 10 of 10 , Mar 29, 2014
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                      Thanks guys.  Yes the heater has a constant ignition sparker.  Also has a continualously running pump.  Yeah I arrived at the same conclusion.  The mill's circuit board is probably expecting either a sine or a square wave, and here is this pesky heater throwing out harmonic sawtooth waves. 

                      Both devices work perfectly as designed to do. 

                      Problem is they are 40 years apart in technology and utterly incompatible on the same electric line.  Really I think I am lucky the PCB in the Mill was designed to fault instead of going pfffft and emitting a very brief cloud of smoke as it died.
                       
                      There are only two good solutions, one of which I found.  Move the heater to a different circuit entirely.  The other would be to place an isolation transformer between the mill and everything else.  Those are expensive and have their own issues.

                      Plugging the heater into another wall circuit was the cheapest and fastest solution.

                      The mill works perfectly now.
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