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Rotary Table Book or PDF

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  • CLevinski
    Hi, Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it s free, a PDF on rotary tables? Many thanks! Charlie New
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 18, 2013
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      Hi,

      Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it's free, a PDF on rotary tables?

      Many thanks!

      Charlie
      New Jersey, US
    • Alan Reinhart
      Hi Charlie – have you seen this from Sherline? http://www.sherline.com/3700inst.htm From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 18, 2013
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        Hi Charlie – have you seen this from Sherline?

        http://www.sherline.com/3700inst.htm

         

         

         

        From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of clevinski@...
        Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:42 PM
        To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF

         

         

        Hi,

        Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it's free, a PDF on rotary tables?

        Many thanks!

        Charlie
        New Jersey, US

      • Alan Reinhart
        Yet another – few pages but may be helpful: http://www.minitech.com.au/images/PDFs/Rotary%20Table%20Guide.PDF From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 18, 2013
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          Yet another – few pages but may be helpful:

          http://www.minitech.com.au/images/PDFs/Rotary%20Table%20Guide.PDF

           

           

          From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of clevinski@...
          Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:42 PM
          To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF

           

           

          Hi,

          Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it's free, a PDF on rotary tables?

          Many thanks!

          Charlie
          New Jersey, US

        • CLevinski
          Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info. I m having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it s kind of strange, or I
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 18, 2013
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            Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

             

            Each division on the moving dial is 5 minutes (12 divisions between degrees).  But how to read the vernier?  There are + and - six increments, so the total range is dividing the 5 minutes of the main dial into 12 parts, or .4166667 minutes per graduation.  That happens to be 25 seconds per graduation, but that doesn't really help much, does it?  If you get alignment with either of the "60" marks on the vernier, that would be 2.5 minutes.  But what about the others?  And why is the 2.5 minute mark on the vernier labeled "60"? 

            Anyway, I'll figure it out eventually...

            Thanks for the links!

            Charlie
            New Jersey, US
          • Herb Walke
            http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/labs/anatomy_&_physiology/a&p203/circulatory_system/vernier_scale/vernier_scales.htm This may help To:
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 18, 2013
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              http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/labs/anatomy_&_physiology/a&p203/circulatory_system/vernier_scale/vernier_scales.htm

              This may help


              To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
              From: clevinski@...
              Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:10:51 -0700
              Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] RE: Rotary Table Book or PDF

               
              Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

               
              Each division on the moving dial is 5 minutes (12 divisions between degrees).  But how to read the vernier?  There are + and - six increments, so the total range is dividing the 5 minutes of the main dial into 12 parts, or .4166667 minutes per graduation.  That happens to be 25 seconds per graduation, but that doesn't really help much, does it?  If you get alignment with either of the "60" marks on the vernier, that would be 2.5 minutes.  But what about the others?  And why is the 2.5 minute mark on the vernier labeled "60"? 

              Anyway, I'll figure it out eventually...

              Thanks for the links!

              Charlie
              New Jersey, US

            • Malcolm Tulloch
              Hello Alan, Thank you for that link, I too have found it very useful. All the best, Malc. ... Hello Alan, Thank you for that link, I too have found it very
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                Hello Alan,
                Thank you for that link, I too have found it very useful.
                All the best,
                Malc.


                From: Alan Reinhart <avr@...>
                To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 19 September 2013, 2:00
                Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF



                Yet another – few pages but may be helpful:
                 
                 
                From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of clevinski@...
                Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:42 PM
                To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF
                 
                 
                Hi,

                Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it's free, a PDF on rotary tables?

                Many thanks!

                Charlie
                New Jersey, US




              • CLevinski
                Hi, Herb, Thanks for the link, but I have no trouble at all reading a normal vernier scale. What throws me about this one is that... 1. It goes from -60 to +60
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                  Hi, Herb,


                  Thanks for the link, but I have no trouble at all reading a normal vernier scale.  What throws me about this one is that...


                  1. It goes from -60 to +60 with a 0 in the middle.

                  2. The resolution for each graduation seems to be a very odd number.


                  So I can identify the right graduation, but I'm not sure how to interpret it.

                  Thanks,

                  Charlie
                  New Jersey, US
                • Jørgen Neess
                  Thank you for all the informations. This days I am looking for a rotaty table, but I did not understand the upset Jorgen Denmark Sendt fra min iPad
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                    Thank you for all the informations. This days I am looking for a
                    rotaty table, but I did not understand the upset
                    Jorgen Denmark


                    Sendt fra min iPad
                  • Alan Reinhart
                    Charlie – try this link: http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/rotary-table-minutes-seconds-14527/ I’ll send more later – on the phone now… =A.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                      Charlie – try this link:

                       

                      http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/rotary-table-minutes-seconds-14527/

                       

                      I’ll send more later – on the phone now…

                       

                      =A.

                       

                      From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of clevinski@...
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 11:11 PM
                      To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] RE: Rotary Table Book or PDF

                       

                       

                      Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

                       

                      Each division on the moving dial is 5 minutes (12 divisions between degrees).  But how to read the vernier?  There are + and - six increments, so the total range is dividing the 5 minutes of the main dial into 12 parts, or .4166667 minutes per graduation.  That happens to be 25 seconds per graduation, but that doesn't really help much, does it?  If you get alignment with either of the "60" marks on the vernier, that would be 2.5 minutes.  But what about the others?  And why is the 2.5 minute mark on the vernier labeled "60"? 

                      Anyway, I'll figure it out eventually...

                      Thanks for the links!

                      Charlie
                      New Jersey, US

                    • SirJohnOfYork
                      ... Degrees, Minutes, Seconds. The vernier is 10 seconds per increment. Did you or can you get dividing plates with your rotary table? Since I do not work with
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                        On 9/18/2013 11:10 PM, clevinski@... wrote:
                         

                        Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

                         Degrees, Minutes, Seconds. The vernier is 10 seconds per increment.

                         Did you or can you get dividing plates with your rotary table? Since I do not work with astronomy or other applications where minutes and seconds apply, my main consideration is *divisions* like perhaps a 6 hole circle, a 50 division dial or for cutting some number of teeth into a gear blank disk.
                        http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/JSAPP/divide/divhead.html

                         What is the ratio of the internal worm gear on your R/T? Mine does 5 degrees per handcrank revolution (0 thru 4  to 0 again) . There are 360 degrees in a circle so 360 / 5 = 72. My worm gear ration is 72:1. Knowing this I can look at other more expensive rotary tables and find which dividing plates are available for them, as mine only came with one dividing plate.

                         For your degrees/minutes/seconds, I would say simply ignore the minus (left) 60 part of the vernier when cranking clockwise and focus only on the positive (right) +60 increments. 10 second increments means you are going to have to roughly guesstimate anything less than 5 seconds or so. Again, I normally go by divisions not degrees/minutes/seconds so the whole degree/minute dial is usually removed and replaced with a dividing plate.

                         I bought the LMS 2183 kit, back when U.S. dollars were much more valuable than they are now.
                        http://lmscnc.com/2183
                        which is the 1810 precision R/T with dividing plate and a tailstock. You may have some luck with reading the instructions for the R/T:
                        http://www.littlemachineshop.com/instructions/RotaryTable.pdf
                        and perhaps most especially, for the dividing plate that comes with it.
                        http://www.littlemachineshop.com/instructions/1811DividingPlates.pdf

                         Without dividing plate(s) a rotary table is severely limited in use whenever divisions are needed as opposed to degree/minute/second use (and even for degree/minute/second use it is hard to set for less than the nearest whole 10 or maybe 5 second increment).

                         Search online for how easy it is to convert from decimal degrees to degrees/minutes/seconds and vice versa. I could also post more about working out which dividing plate hole circle is needed for whatever division as may be needed, but as usual my post is already turning into a book so I'll stop it here for now. If it turns out your handcrank is 5 degrees per revolution, meaning your R/T is a 72:1 ratio, I can post back with all the bolt hole circles on the standard set of 3 dividing plates sold with the much more expensive units. You can see what hole circles are on the single plate that comes with my unit on the above LMS dividing plate link as well.

                         Cheers,
                         John Z.

                      • SirJohnOfYork
                        I will post this information assuming that any interested readers will know that a dividing plate replaces the degree/minute dial and seconds vernier scale
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                          I will post this information assuming that any interested readers will
                          know that a dividing plate replaces the degree/minute dial and seconds
                          vernier scale under the handle of a typical rotary table, and that they
                          will also understand that there are adjustable sector arms over the
                          dividing plate which can be easily set to select any set number of holes
                          in any selected circle, so doing divisions becomes very quick and easy
                          to do repeatedly.

                          Book Title:
                          Gears And Gear Cutting' by Ivan Law, #17 of the Workshop Practice Series
                          - - - - - Excerpt from Chapter 8, Dividing Heads, page 63 - - - - -
                          The author never likes to have to rely solely on tables or data charts
                          for information as they usually get torn or covered with oil and dirt,
                          making them difficult to read. It is always prudent to be able to work
                          things out for oneself. There is nothing magical about determining the
                          number of holes or which circle to use in the dividing plate, as the
                          following example shows.

                          Supposing that one wishes to cut a gear having 33 teeth using a
                          dividing head with a worm and wheel ratio of 60:1. The first step is to
                          divide the number of divisions required into the worm and wheel ratio -
                          in this case 60 divided by 33. This gives an answer of 1-27/33, which
                          indicates that each division is one complete turn of the handle plus a
                          further addition of 27/33 of a turn. The 27/33 of a turn can be achieved
                          by using 27 holes in a 33-hole circle of the division plate.

                          If a 33-hole circle is available then the problem is solved, but it is
                          unlikely that a 33-hole circle will be on the division plate so the next
                          step is to look at the fraction 27/33 and see if it can be factorized.
                          And the answer is, yes it can as both top and bottom are divisible by 3,
                          resulting in a new fraction of the same value 9/11. If the division
                          plate does not have a 33-hole circle then it certainly will not have an
                          11-hole one but it is most likely to to have a circle that is a multiple
                          of 11 and this will in all probability be a 77-hole circle. If we now
                          return to our 9/11 fraction and multiply both top and bottom by 7 we
                          arrive at 63/77. The division for producing a 33-tooth gear is therefore
                          one complete turn of the handle plus 63 holes on a 77-hole circle of the
                          division plate. Once this example is understood it is a simple matter to
                          substitute any division as required.

                          The occasion may arise when the division plate does not possess a
                          circle with the requisite number of holes. This is a most unlikely
                          occurrence as the plates are carefully planned to give a very wide range
                          of divisions but, if a makeshift division plate has to be made do not
                          worry about positioning the holes to very fine limits as any error in
                          the division plate is not passed on directly to the workpiece, but is
                          divided by the wormwheel ratio so the actual error becomes very tiny indeed.
                          - - End Excerpt - -

                          A lot of people are going to buy the increasingly common 72:1 ratio
                          rotary tables (R/T's) that either do not come with any dividing plates,
                          or in my case, only comes with one dividing plate when more than that
                          would be world's better.

                          With that said, looking around at more expensive R/T's with 72:1
                          ratios, I found that the best ones come with 3 dividing plates, A, B,
                          and C. They have hole circles as follows:
                          A Plate - 15,16,17,18,19,20
                          B Plate - 21,23,27,29,31,33
                          C Plate - 37,39,41,43,47,49

                          Save this message if you have a rotary table that goes 5 degrees per
                          full revolution of the handle. That would be 0 through 4, and then back
                          to 0 again making it 5 degrees. A 72:1 worm wheel ratio. Also, a lot of
                          people are going to have to search way back in memory to when they last
                          had to work in oddball fractions outside of the usual inch system. For
                          folks used to metric that may be an extra long time. :-)

                          To repeat the above 33-tooth gear example on a 72:1 R/T with the above
                          A, B and C dividing plates, that would be:
                          72 divided by 33 = 2.181818182 on the calculator.
                          So you know that is 2 full turns, mark that down and subtract 2 from
                          the reading on your calculator to leave only the decimal portion
                          showing. To turn that decimal remainder into a whole remainder, multiply
                          it by the same divisor just used above, in this case 33.
                          .181818182 X 33 = 6, as in 6/33 of a turn left over. (Always round to
                          nearest whole number when necessary, like when a result shows .999999999
                          round up, or .00000006 then round down, etc,).

                          So each division would be 2 full turns plus 6 holes in the 33 hole
                          circle on plate B. Set up the sector arms so they leave 6 holes open
                          between them and adjust the arm plunger to engage with the holes in the
                          33-hole circle. 2 full turns plus 6 holes, 33 times and done. Using a
                          dividing plate is easy - repetitious but easy - as long as you simply
                          keep track of where you are. Mainly that means don't get side tracked or
                          interrupted to where you forget what you were doing. Turn off the phone,
                          etc. :-)

                          How about making a dial with 40 divisions like on the cross slide of
                          the mini-lathe:
                          72 divided by 40 = 1.8, so there is 1 full turn plus
                          .8 times 40 = 32, as in 32/40 of a turn left over.

                          There is no 40 hole circle, but 32/40 can be factored down by dividing
                          both top and bottom by 2, so 32/40 becomes 16/20. There IS a 20 circle
                          hole on plate A above.
                          So 1 full turn plus 16 holes in the 20 hole circle. Set up the sector
                          arms and have at it, 20 times and done, although in making the dial you
                          would probably make some indicator marks longer than others, like an
                          extra long mark every 10th and medium long every 5th as per most dials.

                          Make up some more divisions to do as practice and you should hopefully
                          find this gets easy pretty fast. If you have an R/T with dividing plates
                          and a table of divisions you can double check your math that way too.

                          Now somebody bright is going to want to do 25, 50 or 100 divisions and
                          quickly find they need a 50 or 25 hole circle. Time to make a new hole
                          circle in another dividing plate! That would be another post, too.
                          Reread the last paragraph in the excerpt above. :-)

                          The two circles in my LMS 1810 rotary table's sole dividing plate are
                          15 and 28. They cover a wide range but skip way more than I'd like. The
                          3 plate set as per above would be much better, along with an additional
                          plate with a 25 hole circle. (There are reasons why 40:1 and 60:1 ratios
                          used to be so much more common. but if people can get little mini-mill
                          sized 72:1 R/T's cheap then all of the above becomes important.)

                          Cheers,
                          John Z.
                        • CLevinski
                          Hi, John, I finally realized that it is what I originally thought; 25 seconds per vernier division. It s just not terribly convenient. No, I didn t get
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                            Hi, John,


                            I finally realized that it is what I originally thought; 25 seconds per vernier division.  It's just not terribly convenient.


                            No, I didn't get dividing plates for it, but I'm planning to make some in the future.


                            The table is a 72:1 ratio (the main crank goes 0-1-2-3-4-0), as does yours.  The difference is how the scale is graduated.  The main scale has only 12 divisions between degrees, making each graduation 5 minutes (300 seconds).  With a vernier with a total of 12 divisions, that makes each vernier division 300 seconds / 12 divisions = 25 seconds /division.


                            I'd appreciate any info you'd like to share on dividing plates, etc.

                            Thanks,

                            Charlie
                            New Jersey, US

                            --- In grizhfminimill@yahoogroups.com, <steelchipper@...> wrote:

                            On 9/18/2013 11:10 PM, clevinski@... wrote:
                             

                            Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

                             Degrees, Minutes, Seconds. The vernier is 10 seconds per increment.

                             Did you or can you get dividing plates with your rotary table? Since I do not work with astronomy or other applications where minutes and seconds apply, my main consideration is *divisions* like perhaps a 6 hole circle, a 50 division dial or for cutting some number of teeth into a gear blank disk.
                            http://www.atmsite.org/contrib/JSAPP/divide/divhead.html

                             What is the ratio of the internal worm gear on your R/T? Mine does 5 degrees per handcrank revolution (0 thru 4  to 0 again) . There are 360 degrees in a circle so 360 / 5 = 72. My worm gear ration is 72:1. Knowing this I can look at other more expensive rotary tables and find which dividing plates are available for them, as mine only came with one dividing plate.

                             For your degrees/minutes/seconds, I would say simply ignore the minus (left) 60 part of the vernier when cranking clockwise and focus only on the positive (right) +60 increments. 10 second increments means you are going to have to roughly guesstimate anything less than 5 seconds or so. Again, I normally go by divisions not degrees/minutes/seconds so the whole degree/minute dial is usually removed and replaced with a dividing plate.

                             I bought the LMS 2183 kit, back when U.S. dollars were much more valuable than they are now.
                            http://lmscnc.com/2183
                            which is the 1810 precision R/T with dividing plate and a tailstock. You may have some luck with reading the instructions for the R/T:
                            http://www.littlemachineshop.com/instructions/RotaryTable.pdf
                            and perhaps most especially, for the dividing plate that comes with it.
                            http://www.littlemachineshop.com/instructions/1811DividingPlates.pdf

                             Without dividing plate(s) a rotary table is severely limited in use whenever divisions are needed as opposed to degree/minute/second use (and even for degree/minute/second use it is hard to set for less than the nearest whole 10 or maybe 5 second increment).

                             Search online for how easy it is to convert from decimal degrees to degrees/minutes/seconds and vice versa. I could also post more about working out which dividing plate hole circle is needed for whatever division as may be needed, but as usual my post is already turning into a book so I'll stop it here for now. If it turns out your handcrank is 5 degrees per revolution, meaning your R/T is a 72:1 ratio, I can post back with all the bolt hole circles on the standard set of 3 dividing plates sold with the much more expensive units. You can see what hole circles are on the single plate that comes with my unit on the above LMS dividing plate link as well.

                             Cheers,
                             John Z.

                          • Barry Young
                            Awesome link Alan Thanks for posting it. Barry Young ________________________________ From: Alan Reinhart To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                              Awesome link Alan

                              Thanks for posting it.

                              Barry Young


                              From: Alan Reinhart <avr@...>
                              To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 5:55 PM
                              Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF



                              Hi Charlie – have you seen this from Sherline?
                               
                               
                               
                              From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of clevinski@...
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:42 PM
                              To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Rotary Table Book or PDF
                               
                               
                              Hi,

                              Besides the LMS document (which IS helpful), does anyone know of a book or, even better because it's free, a PDF on rotary tables?

                              Many thanks!

                              Charlie
                              New Jersey, US




                            • Barry Young
                              Thanks for sharing this great link Herb. Barry Young ________________________________ From: Herb Walke To: Griz MiniMill
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 19, 2013
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                                Thanks for sharing this great link Herb.

                                Barry Young


                                From: Herb Walke <herbwalke@...>
                                To: Griz MiniMill <grizhfminimill@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2013 8:30 PM
                                Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] RE: Rotary Table Book or PDF



                                http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/labs/anatomy_&_physiology/a&p203/circulatory_system/vernier_scale/vernier_scales.htm

                                This may help


                                To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                                From: clevinski@...
                                Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:10:51 -0700
                                Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] RE: Rotary Table Book or PDF

                                 
                                Thanks, Alan... that helps, especially the Sherline info.  I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how to read the vernier on mine; it's kind of strange, or I just don't know how to read it.  You can see the dial here

                                 
                                Each division on the moving dial is 5 minutes (12 divisions between degrees).  But how to read the vernier?  There are + and - six increments, so the total range is dividing the 5 minutes of the main dial into 12 parts, or .4166667 minutes per graduation.  That happens to be 25 seconds per graduation, but that doesn't really help much, does it?  If you get alignment with either of the "60" marks on the vernier, that would be 2.5 minutes.  But what about the others?  And why is the 2.5 minute mark on the vernier labeled "60"? 

                                Anyway, I'll figure it out eventually...

                                Thanks for the links!

                                Charlie
                                New Jersey, US





                              • CLevinski
                                Thanks to everyone who commented, and a special thanks to Sir John for the detailed information on dividing plates! As mentioned above, it looks like my
                                Message 15 of 15 , Sep 20, 2013
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                                  Thanks to everyone who commented, and a special thanks to Sir John for the detailed information on dividing plates!

                                  As mentioned above, it looks like my particular table works out to 25 seconds / vernier division; I just don't know why the vernier is labeled "60..0..60".  I suspect that this vernier is also used on tables where the moving dial is 2 minutes/graduation; in that case, the labeling would mean -60 minutes to +60 minutes.

                                  Thanks,

                                  Charlie
                                  New Jersey, US

                                   

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