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Re: Two Lathes

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  • bonif51
    I agree Rob. In fact, I probably could have written your exact reply! :) I bought the MicroMark 7 x 16 because of the longer 16 inch bed and having used it for
    Message 1 of 23 , May 17, 2013
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      I agree Rob. In fact, I probably could have written your exact reply! :)
      I bought the MicroMark 7 x 16 because of the longer 16 inch bed and having used it for almost a year, can't see ever being satisfied with anything less. For me the extra bed length is the major feature (along with the brushless motor shared with the LMS HiTorque) that really sets this lathe apart from the other 7x variants.
      For me, I also find the true-inch dials are easier to use than the ones on the mill but that was easily solved by adding DRO scales on the solid column mill.

      Robert

      --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Potter" <rob@...> wrote:
      >
      > While I love LMS, bought their HiTorque mill, and continue to buy most of my
      > tooling from them, I opted for the Micro-Mark 7x16 lathe primarily because
      > the bed was longer and the dials are 'true inch'. I've had both machines for
      > over a year now, and I haven't been disappointed in either decision.
      >
      >
      >
      > Rob Potter
      >
      > Portland, Oregon
      >
      >
      >
      > From: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com]
      > On Behalf Of Alan Reinhart
      > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 4:51 AM
      > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Two Lathes
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I've been looking hard at LMS's Hi-Torque mill & lathe, and while I believe
      > their mill is still "King of the Road", it seems Micro-Mark may have a bit
      > of nicer lathe. I'm sure it is yet-another Sieg variation, but does seem to
      > pull together some nice features. (No affiliation with either vendor).
      >
      >
      >
      > Any opinions? :-)
      >
      >
      >
      > LMS 7x12: http://tinyurl.com/b6rvvh4
      >
      >
      >
      > Micro-Mark 7x16: http://tinyurl.com/7oqwrvh
      >
    • gerry waclawiak
      The discussion arose in the context of mini-lathes and tpi not measurement systems generally. AFAIK and all the searches I have done the inch is an inch all
      Message 2 of 23 , May 17, 2013
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        The discussion arose in the context of mini-lathes and tpi not measurement systems generally.

        AFAIK and all the searches I have done the inch is an inch all over the world and standardised at 25.4mm for conversion to metric.

        The fact is that metric is the major global system and in the ascendancy, all others are in decline and the cost of manufacturing these industrially will become less competitive as there will not be the same economies of scale.

        Gerry W
        Leeds UK



        To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
        From: apbarrie@...
        Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:21:06 +1000
        Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

         
        Hi,

        sorry… America has NEVER been in Imperial Measure…. NEVER… they kept the same measure they had when they separated from Britain in 1776 or when ever they set op their own weights an measure cast shortly there after. 

        Imperial measure was brought in in 1827… as an attempt to get back at the Metric measure brought in in 1818 in france, but worked on for a long time earlier… 

        there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon…  (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)

        there was a fascinating article, in a Popular Mechanics issue, I believe from the 1950's, on how the English spies who were trying to get copies of the Metric systems, which had not at that napoleoniec time been standardised… but got it wrong. the english then tried to come up witsh a weights & measure that would be devisable into the metric measure, well the prototypes that the spies brought back, but got it all wrong…  (my grandfather left me Popular Mechanics from 1914 to 1960's.. but sadly all lost in the Ipswich floods of 2011.)

        sorry, of this slight interruption sidelight…

        Regards, Sandy


        On 17/05/2013, at 5:52 PM, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

         

        You will find that the majority of the Chinese Hobby machines are designed as metric machines (as China itself and most of the world work in metric). The threads that you assume to be 16tpi are in fact generally a metric thread of 1.5mm pitch.
        The Imperial market is only a part (and shrinking) part of the market and to pander to this the dials are generally calibrated in close Imperial calibrations (or sometimes dual markings) on the standard to them metric threads. The lathes will generally have a 1mm pitch thread on lead screws and the imperial version marked as 0.040" (actually 0.03937". Mill threads will be 1.5mm pitch and marked 0.060" (0.0591")

        In the US particularly, some vendors have commissioned machines with genuine Imperial screws and dials assume people are prepared to pay a premium for a proper imperial calibrated machine

        Here in the UK we have been notionally metric for 40 odd years and whilst Imperial lingers on (especially true of model engineering where participants tend toward elderly) demand is steadily declining as people brought up in metric enter the hobby. The same is true of many of the old "British Empire" counties as they have generally changed also.

        In the US as long as people are prepared to pay for the privilege Imperial machines will be available but as the world increasingly adopts metric as the common standard you will inevitably have to pay more for that privilege

        Gerry W
        Leeds UK




        To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
        From: phil@...
        Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 03:13:55 +0000
        Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

         


        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Reinhart" <avr@...> wrote:
        >
        > My thoughts exactly!
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm pretty new to this mini-world, and have been wondering what the deal is
        > with the 16 TPI screws in so many of them. At least for the US market
        > (maybe UK as well) how hard would it be to offer the 20 TPI systems?

        16 TPI is not that unusual for Imperial equipment. 20 works out nicer if you're counting turns in 50 thou increments, but a 16 TPI leadscrew gives you 1/16 per turn. For woodworking stuff, you can argue it's handier.

        I have a 1953 Kempsmith horizontal mill (4000 lbs., No. 2, horizontal spindle, etc.) that gives you .125 per rev on the knee. It's awkward if you're trying to creep away using .050 cuts, but nice if you take off 1/8 at a time. I know that's not a mini-mill thing, just illustrating that it's not limited to mini-mills.

        Anyway, get an iGaging or other DRO and you'll never look at the dial again!

        Cheers,
        Phil M




        Sandy Barrie.

        Vintage Graphics.
        ABN  15 182 803 759
        Po Box 425
        Booval
        Qld. 4304
        Australia
        Ph. 61-7-38160341

        kodakery@...

        Honorary Life member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.


      • gerry waclawiak
        I am rather more challenged for space as my workshop is only about 8 x6 , in what we Brits comically call a 3rd bedroom more a cupboard or walk-in wardrobe
        Message 3 of 23 , May 17, 2013
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          I am rather more challenged for space as my workshop is only about 8'x6", in what we Brits comically call a 3rd "bedroom" more a cupboard or walk-in wardrobe in some other countries

          I have managed to cram in a mini lathe, mini mill, 6" vice and 12" multi shear/roll/bender  6"x4" bandsaw and a desk and with a central standing area it all works quite well for one person.

          Larger machinery is definitely not on the agenda !


          Gerry W
          Leeds UK



          > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
          > From: david@...
          > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:17:57 +0059
          > Subject: Re[2]: [GrizHFMinimill] Two Lathes
          >
          > My workshop is about the same size as yours and my 7 sits there a bit lonesome, it has a drill press and bench to keep it company along with many tools. Something like a Colchester Bantham would fit in nicely and be very useful. Can't really justify the expenditure though for the use it would actually get. OTOH my electronics den complete with PCB etching bath in a separate smaller room is a lot bigger 12' * 18', silicon chips tend to get lot in there. very comfortable if cold due to being old stone build.
          >
          >
          > Thursday, May 16, 2013, 8:56:37 PM, you wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > Ah yes again – there is always the cry/lust for “Big Iron”! My
          > > 10’x10’ computer-room, Arduino lab, and soon mini machine shop is
          > > about busting at the seams now – so no big stuff will be here.
          > >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Best regards,
          > David Wiseman
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/
          >
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          > Individual Email | Traditional
          >
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          >
        • Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
          America has started the transition to metric, and it is only a matter of time when it will be completed, see
          Message 4 of 23 , May 17, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            America has started the transition to metric, and it is only a matter of time when it will be completed, see
            <http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/upload/1136a.pdf>
            In 1968 Congress commissioned a study and report, The final report of the study, “A Metric
            America: A Decision Whose Time Has Come,” concluded that the U.S. would eventually join the rest of the world in the use of the metric system of measurement.
            With a majority of the population being numerate, the transition would be uncomplicated.
            Any one old enough and numerate enough to have been through the transition in the UK operates happily in both systems.
            If you do any serious modelling you need to be proficient in both as many old model drawings have to be adapted to metric sized material supplies. Many imperial supplies in the UK, where available, cost much more that the metric equivalent.
            The Chinese have their own weight measurement of the 'jin' but happily adapted to the metric system. 

            Malcolm

            I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
            Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
            The writing is on the wall.

            --- On Fri, 5/17/13, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

            From: gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...>
            Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes
            To: "GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com" <grizhfminimill@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 5:51 PM

             

            The discussion arose in the context of mini-lathes and tpi not measurement systems generally.

            AFAIK and all the searches I have done the inch is an inch all over the world and standardised at 25.4mm for conversion to metric.

            The fact is that metric is the major global system and in the ascendancy, all others are in decline and the cost of manufacturing these industrially will become less competitive as there will not be the same economies of scale.

            Gerry W
            Leeds UK



            To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
            From: apbarrie@...
            Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:21:06 +1000
            Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

             
            Hi,

            sorry… America has NEVER been in Imperial Measure…. NEVER… they kept the same measure they had when they separated from Britain in 1776 or when ever they set op their own weights an measure cast shortly there after. 

            Imperial measure was brought in in 1827… as an attempt to get back at the Metric measure brought in in 1818 in france, but worked on for a long time earlier… 

            there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon…  (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)

            there was a fascinating article, in a Popular Mechanics issue, I believe from the 1950's, on how the English spies who were trying to get copies of the Metric systems, which had not at that napoleoniec time been standardised… but got it wrong. the english then tried to come up witsh a weights & measure that would be devisable into the metric measure, well the prototypes that the spies brought back, but got it all wrong…  (my grandfather left me Popular Mechanics from 1914 to 1960's.. but sadly all lost in the Ipswich floods of 2011.)

            sorry, of this slight interruption sidelight…

            Regards, Sandy


            On 17/05/2013, at 5:52 PM, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

             

            You will find that the majority of the Chinese Hobby machines are designed as metric machines (as China itself and most of the world work in metric). The threads that you assume to be 16tpi are in fact generally a metric thread of 1.5mm pitch.
            The Imperial market is only a part (and shrinking) part of the market and to pander to this the dials are generally calibrated in close Imperial calibrations (or sometimes dual markings) on the standard to them metric threads. The lathes will generally have a 1mm pitch thread on lead screws and the imperial version marked as 0.040" (actually 0.03937". Mill threads will be 1.5mm pitch and marked 0.060" (0.0591")

            In the US particularly, some vendors have commissioned machines with genuine Imperial screws and dials assume people are prepared to pay a premium for a proper imperial calibrated machine

            Here in the UK we have been notionally metric for 40 odd years and whilst Imperial lingers on (especially true of model engineering where participants tend toward elderly) demand is steadily declining as people brought up in metric enter the hobby. The same is true of many of the old "British Empire" counties as they have generally changed also.

            In the US as long as people are prepared to pay for the privilege Imperial machines will be available but as the world increasingly adopts metric as the common standard you will inevitably have to pay more for that privilege

            Gerry W
            Leeds UK




            To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
            From: phil@...
            Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 03:13:55 +0000
            Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

             


            --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Reinhart" <avr@...> wrote:
            >
            > My thoughts exactly!
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm pretty new to this mini-world, and have been wondering what the deal is
            > with the 16 TPI screws in so many of them. At least for the US market
            > (maybe UK as well) how hard would it be to offer the 20 TPI systems?

            16 TPI is not that unusual for Imperial equipment. 20 works out nicer if you're counting turns in 50 thou increments, but a 16 TPI leadscrew gives you 1/16 per turn. For woodworking stuff, you can argue it's handier.

            I have a 1953 Kempsmith horizontal mill (4000 lbs., No. 2, horizontal spindle, etc.) that gives you .125 per rev on the knee. It's awkward if you're trying to creep away using .050 cuts, but nice if you take off 1/8 at a time. I know that's not a mini-mill thing, just illustrating that it's not limited to mini-mills.

            Anyway, get an iGaging or other DRO and you'll never look at the dial again!

            Cheers,
            Phil M




            Sandy Barrie.

            Vintage Graphics.
            ABN  15 182 803 759
            Po Box 425
            Booval
            Qld. 4304
            Australia
            Ph. 61-7-38160341

            kodakery@...

            Honorary Life member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.


          • Goran Hosinsky
            Gerry, it would be nice to see a drawing how you have arranged that workshop. Goran Canary Islands ... Gerry, it would be nice to see a drawing how you have
            Message 5 of 23 , May 17, 2013
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              Gerry, it would be nice to see a drawing how you have arranged that workshop.

              Goran
              Canary Islands
              On 2013-05-17 18:13, gerry waclawiak wrote:
               

              I am rather more challenged for space as my workshop is only about 8'x6", in what we Brits comically call a 3rd "bedroom" more a cupboard or walk-in wardrobe in some other countries

              I have managed to cram in a mini lathe, mini mill, 6" vice and 12" multi shear/roll/bender 
              6"x4" bandsaw and a desk and with a central standing area it all works quite well for one person.

              Larger machinery is definitely not on the agenda !


              Gerry W
              Leeds UK



              > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
              > From: david@...
              > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:17:57 +0059
              > Subject: Re[2]: [GrizHFMinimill] Two Lathes
              >
              > My workshop is about the same size as yours and my 7 sits there a bit lonesome, it has a drill press and bench to keep it company along with many tools. Something like a Colchester Bantham would fit in nicely and be very useful. Can't really justify the expenditure though for the use it would actually get. OTOH my electronics den complete with PCB etching bath in a separate smaller room is a lot bigger 12' * 18', silicon chips tend to get lot in there. very comfortable if cold due to being old stone build.
              >
              >
              > Thursday, May 16, 2013, 8:56:37 PM, you wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Ah yes again – there is always the cry/lust for “Big Iron”! My
              > > 10’x10’ computer-room, Arduino lab, and soon mini machine shop is
              > > about busting at the seams now – so no big stuff will be here.
              > >
              >
              >
              > --
              > Best regards,
              > David Wiseman
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/
              >
              > <*> Your email settings:
              > Individual Email | Traditional
              >
              > <*> To change settings online go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/join
              > (Yahoo! ID required)
              >
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              >

            • gerry waclawiak
              Hi Goran, I ll see if I can send one as a PM over the weekend Gerry W Leeds UK To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com CC: hosinsky@8gh.com From: hosinsky@8gh.com
              Message 6 of 23 , May 17, 2013
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                Hi Goran,

                I'll see if I can send one as a PM over the weekend

                Gerry W
                Leeds UK




                To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                CC: hosinsky@...
                From: hosinsky@...
                Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 21:08:38 +0100
                Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Two Lathes

                 
                Gerry, it would be nice to see a drawing how you have arranged that workshop.

                Goran
                Canary Islands

                On 2013-05-17 18:13, gerry waclawiak wrote:
                 

                I am rather more challenged for space as my workshop is only about 8'x6", in what we Brits comically call a 3rd "bedroom" more a cupboard or walk-in wardrobe in some other countries

                I have managed to cram in a mini lathe, mini mill, 6" vice and 12" multi shear/roll/bender 
                6"x4" bandsaw and a desk and with a central standing area it all works quite well for one person.

                Larger machinery is definitely not on the agenda !


                Gerry W
                Leeds UK



                > To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                > From: david@...
                > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:17:57 +0059
                > Subject: Re[2]: [GrizHFMinimill] Two Lathes
                >
                > My workshop is about the same size as yours and my 7 sits there a bit lonesome, it has a drill press and bench to keep it company along with many tools. Something like a Colchester Bantham would fit in nicely and be very useful. Can't really justify the expenditure though for the use it would actually get. OTOH my electronics den complete with PCB etching bath in a separate smaller room is a lot bigger 12' * 18', silicon chips tend to get lot in there. very comfortable if cold due to being old stone build.
                >
                >
                > Thursday, May 16, 2013, 8:56:37 PM, you wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Ah yes again – there is always the cry/lust for “Big Iron”! My
                > > 10’x10’ computer-room, Arduino lab, and soon mini machine shop is
                > > about busting at the seams now – so no big stuff will be here.
                > >
                >
                >
                > --
                > Best regards,
                > David Wiseman
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/
                >
                > <*> Your email settings:
                > Individual Email | Traditional
                >
                > <*> To change settings online go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/join
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
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                > GrizHFMinimill-digest@yahoogroups.com
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                >
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                > GrizHFMinimill-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >


              • SirJohnOfYork
                In the meantime, American mechanics, professional or back yard, have learned to have full sets of all tooling in both metric and inch. Today s cars STILL have
                Message 7 of 23 , May 17, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                   In the meantime, American mechanics, professional or back yard, have learned to have full sets of all tooling in both metric and inch. Today's cars STILL have a mix of inch and metric hardware. Little by little more metric, but the day does appear to be far off for the need to have inch based tooling to disappear. In a few more generations perhaps. Oh, wait - a lot of people LIKE old cars and actually collect and restore them! Never mind. :-)

                  On 5/17/2013 1:15 PM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
                   

                  America has started the transition to metric, and it is only a matter of time when it will be completed, see
                  <http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/upload/1136a.pdf>
                  In 1968 Congress commissioned a study and report, The final report of the study, “A Metric
                  America: A Decision Whose Time Has Come,” concluded that the U.S. would eventually join the rest of the world in the use of the metric system of measurement.
                  With a majority of the population being numerate, the transition would be uncomplicated.
                  Any one old enough and numerate enough to have been through the transition in the UK operates happily in both systems.
                  If you do any serious modelling you need to be proficient in both as many old model drawings have to be adapted to metric sized material supplies. Many imperial supplies in the UK, where available, cost much more that the metric equivalent.
                  The Chinese have their own weight measurement of the 'jin' but happily adapted to the metric system. 

                  Malcolm

                  I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
                  Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
                  The writing is on the wall.

                  --- On Fri, 5/17/13, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

                  From: gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...>
                  Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes
                  To: "GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com" <grizhfminimill@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 5:51 PM

                   

                  The discussion arose in the context of mini-lathes and tpi not measurement systems generally.

                  AFAIK and all the searches I have done the inch is an inch all over the world and standardised at 25.4mm for conversion to metric.

                  The fact is that metric is the major global system and in the ascendancy, all others are in decline and the cost of manufacturing these industrially will become less competitive as there will not be the same economies of scale.

                  Gerry W
                  Leeds UK



                  To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                  From: apbarrie@...
                  Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:21:06 +1000
                  Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

                   
                  Hi,

                  sorry… America has NEVER been in Imperial Measure…. NEVER… they kept the same measure they had when they separated from Britain in 1776 or when ever they set op their own weights an measure cast shortly there after. 

                  Imperial measure was brought in in 1827… as an attempt to get back at the Metric measure brought in in 1818 in france, but worked on for a long time earlier… 

                  there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon…  (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)

                  there was a fascinating article, in a Popular Mechanics issue, I believe from the 1950's, on how the English spies who were trying to get copies of the Metric systems, which had not at that napoleoniec time been standardised… but got it wrong. the english then tried to come up witsh a weights & measure that would be devisable into the metric measure, well the prototypes that the spies brought back, but got it all wrong…  (my grandfather left me Popular Mechanics from 1914 to 1960's.. but sadly all lost in the Ipswich floods of 2011.)

                  sorry, of this slight interruption sidelight…

                  Regards, Sandy


                  On 17/05/2013, at 5:52 PM, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

                   

                  You will find that the majority of the Chinese Hobby machines are designed as metric machines (as China itself and most of the world work in metric). The threads that you assume to be 16tpi are in fact generally a metric thread of 1.5mm pitch.
                  The Imperial market is only a part (and shrinking) part of the market and to pander to this the dials are generally calibrated in close Imperial calibrations (or sometimes dual markings) on the standard to them metric threads. The lathes will generally have a 1mm pitch thread on lead screws and the imperial version marked as 0.040" (actually 0.03937". Mill threads will be 1.5mm pitch and marked 0.060" (0.0591")

                  In the US particularly, some vendors have commissioned machines with genuine Imperial screws and dials assume people are prepared to pay a premium for a proper imperial calibrated machine

                  Here in the UK we have been notionally metric for 40 odd years and whilst Imperial lingers on (especially true of model engineering where participants tend toward elderly) demand is steadily declining as people brought up in metric enter the hobby. The same is true of many of the old "British Empire" counties as they have generally changed also.

                  In the US as long as people are prepared to pay for the privilege Imperial machines will be available but as the world increasingly adopts metric as the common standard you will inevitably have to pay more for that privilege

                  Gerry W
                  Leeds UK




                  To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                  From: phil@...
                  Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 03:13:55 +0000
                  Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

                   


                  --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Reinhart" <avr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My thoughts exactly!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm pretty new to this mini-world, and have been wondering what the deal is
                  > with the 16 TPI screws in so many of them. At least for the US market
                  > (maybe UK as well) how hard would it be to offer the 20 TPI systems?

                  16 TPI is not that unusual for Imperial equipment. 20 works out nicer if you're counting turns in 50 thou increments, but a 16 TPI leadscrew gives you 1/16 per turn. For woodworking stuff, you can argue it's handier.

                  I have a 1953 Kempsmith horizontal mill (4000 lbs., No. 2, horizontal spindle, etc.) that gives you .125 per rev on the knee. It's awkward if you're trying to creep away using .050 cuts, but nice if you take off 1/8 at a time. I know that's not a mini-mill thing, just illustrating that it's not limited to mini-mills.

                  Anyway, get an iGaging or other DRO and you'll never look at the dial again!

                  Cheers,
                  Phil M




                  Sandy Barrie.

                  Vintage Graphics.
                  ABN  15 182 803 759
                  Po Box 425
                  Booval
                  Qld. 4304
                  Australia
                  Ph. 61-7-38160341

                  kodakery@...

                  Honorary Life member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.



                • Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
                  Old engineering designs were over-engineered and made to last, the parts for some heritage vehicles are less expensive (relatively) now than they were when
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 19, 2013
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                    Old engineering designs were over-engineered and made to last, the parts for some heritage vehicles are less expensive (relatively) now than they were when new, but they are in the bottom of the bathtub price curve.
                    This means that the imperial threaded part will become more difficult to obtain and be more expensive, so stock up now.

                    Old bolts never die, they just rust away.

                    Malcolm

                    I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
                    Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
                    The writing is on the wall.

                    --- On Fri, 5/17/13, SirJohnOfYork <steelchipper@...> wrote:

                    From: SirJohnOfYork <steelchipper@...>
                    Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes
                    To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 9:30 PM

                     

                     In the meantime, American mechanics, professional or back yard, have learned to have full sets of all tooling in both metric and inch. Today's cars STILL have a mix of inch and metric hardware. Little by little more metric, but the day does appear to be far off for the need to have inch based tooling to disappear. In a few more generations perhaps. Oh, wait - a lot of people LIKE old cars and actually collect and restore them! Never mind. :-)

                    On 5/17/2013 1:15 PM, Malcolm Parker-Lisberg wrote:
                     

                    America has started the transition to metric, and it is only a matter of time when it will be completed, see
                    <http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/upload/1136a.pdf>
                    In 1968 Congress commissioned a study and report, The final report of the study, “A Metric
                    America: A Decision Whose Time Has Come,” concluded that the U.S. would eventually join the rest of the world in the use of the metric system of measurement.
                    With a majority of the population being numerate, the transition would be uncomplicated.
                    Any one old enough and numerate enough to have been through the transition in the UK operates happily in both systems.
                    If you do any serious modelling you need to be proficient in both as many old model drawings have to be adapted to metric sized material supplies. Many imperial supplies in the UK, where available, cost much more that the metric equivalent.
                    The Chinese have their own weight measurement of the 'jin' but happily adapted to the metric system. 

                    Malcolm

                    I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!
                    Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
                    The writing is on the wall.

                    --- On Fri, 5/17/13, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

                    From: gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...>
                    Subject: RE: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes
                    To: "GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com" <grizhfminimill@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 5:51 PM

                     

                    The discussion arose in the context of mini-lathes and tpi not measurement systems generally.

                    AFAIK and all the searches I have done the inch is an inch all over the world and standardised at 25.4mm for conversion to metric.

                    The fact is that metric is the major global system and in the ascendancy, all others are in decline and the cost of manufacturing these industrially will become less competitive as there will not be the same economies of scale.

                    Gerry W
                    Leeds UK



                    To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                    From: apbarrie@...
                    Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 19:21:06 +1000
                    Subject: Re: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

                     
                    Hi,

                    sorry… America has NEVER been in Imperial Measure…. NEVER… they kept the same measure they had when they separated from Britain in 1776 or when ever they set op their own weights an measure cast shortly there after. 

                    Imperial measure was brought in in 1827… as an attempt to get back at the Metric measure brought in in 1818 in france, but worked on for a long time earlier… 

                    there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon…  (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)

                    there was a fascinating article, in a Popular Mechanics issue, I believe from the 1950's, on how the English spies who were trying to get copies of the Metric systems, which had not at that napoleoniec time been standardised… but got it wrong. the english then tried to come up witsh a weights & measure that would be devisable into the metric measure, well the prototypes that the spies brought back, but got it all wrong…  (my grandfather left me Popular Mechanics from 1914 to 1960's.. but sadly all lost in the Ipswich floods of 2011.)

                    sorry, of this slight interruption sidelight…

                    Regards, Sandy


                    On 17/05/2013, at 5:52 PM, gerry waclawiak <gerrywac@...> wrote:

                     

                    You will find that the majority of the Chinese Hobby machines are designed as metric machines (as China itself and most of the world work in metric). The threads that you assume to be 16tpi are in fact generally a metric thread of 1.5mm pitch.
                    The Imperial market is only a part (and shrinking) part of the market and to pander to this the dials are generally calibrated in close Imperial calibrations (or sometimes dual markings) on the standard to them metric threads. The lathes will generally have a 1mm pitch thread on lead screws and the imperial version marked as 0.040" (actually 0.03937". Mill threads will be 1.5mm pitch and marked 0.060" (0.0591")

                    In the US particularly, some vendors have commissioned machines with genuine Imperial screws and dials assume people are prepared to pay a premium for a proper imperial calibrated machine

                    Here in the UK we have been notionally metric for 40 odd years and whilst Imperial lingers on (especially true of model engineering where participants tend toward elderly) demand is steadily declining as people brought up in metric enter the hobby. The same is true of many of the old "British Empire" counties as they have generally changed also.

                    In the US as long as people are prepared to pay for the privilege Imperial machines will be available but as the world increasingly adopts metric as the common standard you will inevitably have to pay more for that privilege

                    Gerry W
                    Leeds UK




                    To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                    From: phil@...
                    Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 03:13:55 +0000
                    Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

                     


                    --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Reinhart" <avr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My thoughts exactly!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm pretty new to this mini-world, and have been wondering what the deal is
                    > with the 16 TPI screws in so many of them. At least for the US market
                    > (maybe UK as well) how hard would it be to offer the 20 TPI systems?

                    16 TPI is not that unusual for Imperial equipment. 20 works out nicer if you're counting turns in 50 thou increments, but a 16 TPI leadscrew gives you 1/16 per turn. For woodworking stuff, you can argue it's handier.

                    I have a 1953 Kempsmith horizontal mill (4000 lbs., No. 2, horizontal spindle, etc.) that gives you .125 per rev on the knee. It's awkward if you're trying to creep away using .050 cuts, but nice if you take off 1/8 at a time. I know that's not a mini-mill thing, just illustrating that it's not limited to mini-mills.

                    Anyway, get an iGaging or other DRO and you'll never look at the dial again!

                    Cheers,
                    Phil M




                    Sandy Barrie.

                    Vintage Graphics.
                    ABN  15 182 803 759
                    Po Box 425
                    Booval
                    Qld. 4304
                    Australia
                    Ph. 61-7-38160341

                    kodakery@...

                    Honorary Life member, Australian Institute of Professional Photography.



                  • NastyGash
                    We Yanks use oz Avoirdupois for all but precious metals, etc, where we use oz Troy. I d wager that most Yanks who don t dabble in p.m. don t even know what a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 23, 2013
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                      We Yanks use oz Avoirdupois for all but precious metals, etc, where we use oz Troy. I'd wager that most Yanks who don't dabble in p.m. don't even know what a Troy ounce (or ozt) is; nor what "Avoirdupois" is. To most of us, an "ounce" (weight) is an ounce Avoirdupois.


                      --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, sandybarrie <apbarrie@...> wrote:
                      >

                      > there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon… (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)
                      >
                      >
                    • Barry Young
                      Since the Mendenhall Order on April 5, 1893, the United States has essentially been a metric country. The official definition of an inch is 25.4mm since that
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 23, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Since the Mendenhall Order on April 5, 1893, the United States has essentially been a metric country. The official definition of an inch is 25.4mm since that time. When talking about ounces, one must remember that the measurement could be defining volume or weight. 

                        Just as rods and chains are used in surveying, ounces Troy are used for weights of precious metals, Ounces Avoirdupois are used for most other small weights except in chemistry and pharmacy which uses all metric weights now. Both are parts of the Inch Pound System often incorrectly called "English", "Standard", or even worse "SAE"

                        I would wager that England has also tied their traditional inch/pound measures to metric standards as well. 


                        From: NastyGash <nastygash@...>
                        To: GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2013 7:29 AM
                        Subject: [GrizHFMinimill] Re: Two Lathes

                        We Yanks use oz Avoirdupois for all but precious metals, etc, where we use oz Troy.  I'd wager that most Yanks who don't dabble in p.m. don't even know what a Troy ounce (or ozt) is; nor what "Avoirdupois" is.  To most of us, an "ounce" (weight) is an ounce Avoirdupois.


                        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, sandybarrie <apbarrie@...> wrote:
                        >

                        > there is a difference between the English inch, and the American inch, by only the slightest fraction. not really enough to make much of a difference for any engineer today, but still a difference… but the American Gallon is aprox 20% shorter than the English IMPERIAL gallon…  (The english also brought in Avoirdupois weights… where as the American Kept Troy weights. The english Now only use Troy weights for Gemstones, precious metals & Gunpowder…)
                        >
                        >



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                      • Dick Damian
                        I worked as an engine engineer at Ford Motor company in the 1970 s. Design drawings were in metric many years before my time. If you buy an engine bolt at an
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 24, 2013
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                          I worked as an engine engineer at Ford Motor company in the 1970's. Design drawings were in metric many years before my time.
                          If you buy an engine bolt at an auto parts store, they may specify it in English units, but trust that it was designed and built in metric.

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