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Had a Micro, going Mini

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  • corelokt308win
    I had a micro mill, wasn t much impressed. Very hard to turn the adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept overheating and shutting off, then stripped an
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 31, 2008
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      I had a micro mill, wasn't much impressed. Very hard to turn the
      adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept overheating and shutting
      off, then stripped an axis adjustment bolt.
      Brought it back as I bought the warranty with it, and traded it toward
      a Mini mill as I see a lot of support for them on the net, and lots of
      retro fits.
      My question is: What after-market, or retro-fits and mods do you all
      recommend for one of these?
    • Dave Mucha
      ... #1 is the belt drive. Probably the first near requirement. The spring loaded spindle lock is something you can make. also, if you are good in that area, a
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 31, 2008
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        --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "corelokt308win"
        <corelokt308win@...> wrote:
        >
        > I had a micro mill, wasn't much impressed. Very hard to turn the
        > adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept overheating and shutting
        > off, then stripped an axis adjustment bolt.
        > Brought it back as I bought the warranty with it, and traded it toward
        > a Mini mill as I see a lot of support for them on the net, and lots of
        > retro fits.
        > My question is: What after-market, or retro-fits and mods do you all
        > recommend for one of these?
        >


        #1 is the belt drive. Probably the first near requirement.

        The spring loaded spindle lock is something you can make.

        also, if you are good in that area, a power feed would be very helpful.

        Dave
      • Barry Young
        In order: 1. Belt drive. 2. R-8 spindle if yours is Morse taper. 3. CNC control 4. Much much larger custom made machine frame. 5. If none of that satisfies, I
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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          In order:

          1. Belt drive.
          2. R-8 spindle if yours is Morse taper.
          3. CNC control
          4. Much much larger custom made machine frame.
          5. If none of that satisfies, I suggest a 50 taper
          Mori Seiki as a replacement. Of course this is a tad
          spendy at $300,000.00

          Barry


          --- corelokt308win <corelokt308win@...> wrote:

          > I had a micro mill, wasn't much impressed. Very
          > hard to turn the
          > adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept
          > overheating and shutting
          > off, then stripped an axis adjustment bolt.
          > Brought it back as I bought the warranty with it,
          > and traded it toward
          > a Mini mill as I see a lot of support for them on
          > the net, and lots of
          > retro fits.
          > My question is: What after-market, or retro-fits
          > and mods do you all
          > recommend for one of these?
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > (Yahoo! ID required)
          >
          > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
          http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
        • moparado
          Barry, i think you re 1/2 way serious! LOL! Why not just start out with a Bridgeport? The BASIC somewhat necessary mods IMO are as mentioned the belt drive
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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            Barry, i think you're 1/2 way serious! LOL!
            Why not just start out with a Bridgeport?

            The BASIC somewhat necessary mods IMO are as mentioned the belt drive
            conversion and the air spring kit. The air spring kit will allow
            considerably more Z axis spindle travel especially down at the table
            end. Both of these kits can be purchased from LMS for around $150. No
            brainers far as i'm concerned.
            -Ken

            -------------------------
            Barry Young <barryjyoung@...> wrote:
            > In order:
            >
            > 1. Belt drive.
            > 2. R-8 spindle if yours is Morse taper.
            > 3. CNC control
            > 4. Much much larger custom made machine frame.
            > 5. If none of that satisfies, I suggest a 50 taper
            > Mori Seiki as a replacement. Of course this is a tad
            > spendy at $300,000.00
            >
            > Barry
            >
            >
            > --- corelokt308win <corelokt308win@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I had a micro mill, wasn't much impressed. Very
            > > hard to turn the
            > > adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept
            > > overheating and shutting
            > > off, then stripped an axis adjustment bolt.
            > > Brought it back as I bought the warranty with it,
            > > and traded it toward
            > > a Mini mill as I see a lot of support for them on
            > > the net, and lots of
            > > retro fits.
            > > My question is: What after-market, or retro-fits
            > > and mods do you all
            > > recommend for one of these?
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > > (Yahoo! ID required)
            > >
            > > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            ______________
            > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of
            Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
            > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
            >
          • Dave Mucha
            I think I would add a column fill for stabilization, and possibly a plate mount to allow for screw adjustment of the column tilt. Dave
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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              I think I would add a column fill for stabilization, and possibly a
              plate mount to allow for screw adjustment of the column tilt.

              Dave
            • Barry Young
              Hi Ken: I am serious. I am 3/4 of the way down that list myself. When I set out on the adventure of creating a machine shop, I decided I would make all of the
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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                Hi Ken:

                I am serious. I am 3/4 of the way down that list
                myself.

                When I set out on the adventure of creating a machine
                shop, I decided I would make all of the machines pay
                for themselves. I started by buying a 9x12 metal lathe
                that had been ever so slightly damaged in shipping. I
                wrote many magazine articles using the lathe for
                illustrations and also took in side jobs. The lathe
                paid for itself more than twelve times over. I used
                that money to buy the minimill and that has also
                brought back maybe 5 times its cost so far. Using all
                this money that the machines have generated I have
                built a small shop in my garage that is pretty fully
                equipped. The next step on my list is to buy a large
                new milling machine, probably a Mori Seiki or
                Matsuura. Before that happens though, I have to make
                enough with the tools I have to pay for a home and
                some dirt.

                So yeah, I am serious.

                We have spent the last week re-wiring the CNC mill
                with the minimill head. Each of the more than 150
                wires now has crimped, soldered and heat shrinked
                terminals on each end. Whew! I am so sick of wiring
                that if the toaster somehow becomes unplugged, it is
                going to stay that way.

                Barry

                --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:

                > Barry, i think you're 1/2 way serious! LOL!
                > Why not just start out with a Bridgeport?
                >
                > The BASIC somewhat necessary mods IMO are as
                > mentioned the belt drive
                > conversion and the air spring kit. The air spring
                > kit will allow
                > considerably more Z axis spindle travel especially
                > down at the table
                > end. Both of these kits can be purchased from LMS
                > for around $150. No
                > brainers far as i'm concerned.
                > -Ken
                >
                > -------------------------
                > Barry Young <barryjyoung@...> wrote:
                > > In order:
                > >
                > > 1. Belt drive.
                > > 2. R-8 spindle if yours is Morse taper.
                > > 3. CNC control
                > > 4. Much much larger custom made machine frame.
                > > 5. If none of that satisfies, I suggest a 50 taper
                > > Mori Seiki as a replacement. Of course this is a
                > tad
                > > spendy at $300,000.00
                > >
                > > Barry
                > >
                > >
                > > --- corelokt308win <corelokt308win@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > I had a micro mill, wasn't much impressed. Very
                > > > hard to turn the
                > > > adjustments, not very rigid. Finally it kept
                > > > overheating and shutting
                > > > off, then stripped an axis adjustment bolt.
                > > > Brought it back as I bought the warranty with
                > it,
                > > > and traded it toward
                > > > a Mini mill as I see a lot of support for them
                > on
                > > > the net, and lots of
                > > > retro fits.
                > > > My question is: What after-market, or
                > retro-fits
                > > > and mods do you all
                > > > recommend for one of these?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > > (Yahoo! ID required)
                > > >
                > > >
                > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                > ______________
                > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you
                > one month of
                > Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                > > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
                > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >



                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
              • moparado
                Howdy Barry, Well i was only 1/4 the way off! I sorta admire you guys who actually make money with these machines! So far my machines have had a definite
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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                  Howdy Barry,
                  Well i was only 1/4 the way off!

                  I sorta admire you guys who actually make money with these machines!
                  So far my machines have had a definite negative cash flow considering
                  the mods, vises, tooling, etc. Sure i fabricated numerous personal
                  projects i couldn't have done otherwise but no money in the wallet.

                  If you don't mind me asking, did your machines initially pay for
                  themselves by contract jobs or your camera making venture?
                  One of these days i'm gonna get enough motivational steam up to
                  actually try and sell some kind of unique product on eBay and see
                  what happens.

                  Far as the wiring, that reminds me of when i had to build a large
                  prototype mini-computer printed circuit board back in the early 80's.
                  Around 100 IC chips and each pin on them dam 100 chips had to be wire
                  wrapped with 30 ga. wire to other pins and connectors. These were the
                  days before LSIC's! No thanks..never again.
                  Maybe if all else fails, we both could get a job with the local
                  MaBell. On second thought, Nahh! I'm enjoying my early, early
                  retirement too much.
                  -Ken

                  -------------------------
                  Barry Young <barryjyoung@...> wrote:
                  Hi Ken:
                  I am serious. I am 3/4 of the way down that list
                  myself....

                  The lathe paid for itself more than twelve times over. I used
                  that money to buy the minimill and that has also
                  brought back maybe 5 times its cost so far....
                  So yeah, I am serious....

                  Each of the more than 150
                  wires now has crimped, soldered and heat shrinked
                  terminals on each end. Whew! I am so sick of wiring
                  that if the toaster somehow becomes unplugged, it is
                  going to stay that way.
                  >
                  > Barry
                  >
                  > --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Barry, i think you're 1/2 way serious! LOL!
                  > > Why not just start out with a Bridgeport?
                  > >
                  > > The BASIC somewhat necessary mods IMO are as
                  > > mentioned the belt drive
                  > > conversion and the air spring kit. The air spring
                  > > kit will allow
                  > > considerably more Z axis spindle travel especially
                  > > down at the table
                  > > end. Both of these kits can be purchased from LMS
                  > > for around $150. No
                  > > brainers far as i'm concerned.
                  > > -Ken
                  > >
                  > > -------------------------
                  > > Barry Young <barryjyoung@> wrote:
                  > > > In order:
                  > > >
                  > > > 1. Belt drive.
                  > > > 2. R-8 spindle if yours is Morse taper.
                  > > > 3. CNC control
                  > > > 4. Much much larger custom made machine frame.
                  > > > 5. If none of that satisfies, I suggest a 50 taper
                  > > > Mori Seiki as a replacement. Of course this is a
                  > > tad
                  > > > spendy at $300,000.00
                  > > >
                  > > > Barry
                • Brian Pitt
                  ... or split the difference and go for the the Haas MiniMill ;) Brian -- Nemo me impune lacesset
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 1, 2008
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                    On Tuesday 01 April 2008 02:48, Barry Young wrote:
                    > If none of that satisfies, I suggest a 50 taper
                    > Mori Seiki as a replacement. Of course this is a tad
                    > spendy at $300,000.00

                    or split the difference and go for the the Haas MiniMill ;)

                    Brian
                    --
                    "Nemo me impune lacesset"
                  • Dave Mucha
                    ... If I had the room, I d spend the the $1,000 or $2,000 for a used Bridgeport.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                      --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "moparado" <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Barry, i think you're 1/2 way serious! LOL!
                      > Why not just start out with a Bridgeport?
                      >

                      If I had the room, I'd spend the the $1,000 or $2,000 for a used
                      Bridgeport.
                    • corelokt308win
                      What is a plate mount to allow for screw adjustment of the column tilt. Also, what is a spring loaded spindle mount? I m clear on the rest of the suggested
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                        What is a plate mount to allow for screw adjustment of the column tilt.

                        Also, what is a spring loaded spindle mount?

                        I'm clear on the rest of the suggested mods, and familiar with LMS and
                        all their goodies.

                        I'll be using this for a small gunsmithing repair business.
                        I've nowhere near the room for a bridgeport.
                        Thanks all.
                      • Sebastian Kuzminsky
                        ... I think that refers to this: There are many variations on this idea
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                          corelokt308win wrote:
                          > Also, what is a spring loaded spindle mount?

                          I think that refers to this:
                          <http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2258&category=>

                          There are many variations on this idea floating around.


                          --
                          Sebastian Kuzminsky
                          If you need a machine today and don't buy it,
                          tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it. -- Henry Ford
                        • John Pitkin
                          That s funny... I thought it refers to this http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php? ProductID=2352&category= JP ... ProductID=2258&category=
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                            That's funny... I thought it refers to this

                            http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
                            ProductID=2352&category=

                            JP

                            --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > corelokt308win wrote:
                            > > Also, what is a spring loaded spindle mount?
                            >
                            > I think that refers to this:
                            > <http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
                            ProductID=2258&category=>
                            >
                            > There are many variations on this idea floating around.
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Sebastian Kuzminsky
                            > If you need a machine today and don't buy it,
                            > tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it. -- Henry Ford
                            >
                          • moparado
                            I ve got the room, namely a 50 X 70 steel-sided/aluminum-roofed pole barn complete with an industrial concrete floor. Its a home for my tractors/implements,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                              I've got the room, namely a 50' X 70' steel-sided/aluminum-roofed pole
                              barn complete with an industrial concrete floor. Its a home for my
                              tractors/implements, ATV, my pickup, welding equipment, sand blasting
                              cabinets, woodworking shop and other various ascundry junk.
                              But right now at least i couldn't justify a full sized mill or lathe as
                              i've been using the mini's only a few times a month if that much.
                              -Ken

                              --------------------------------
                              "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...> wrote:
                              If I had the room, I'd spend the the $1,000 or $2,000 for a used
                              Bridgeport.
                              >

                              > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "moparado" <kenwm2@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Barry, i think you're 1/2 way serious! LOL!
                              > > Why not just start out with a Bridgeport?
                              > >
                            • Dave Mucha
                              and, I was thinking the recent lower plate with a bolt on riser. If you put a 1/2 plate on the bottom of the mill that is some inches wider, you can bolt on
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 2, 2008
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                                and, I was thinking the recent lower plate with a bolt on riser.

                                If you put a 1/2" plate on the bottom of the mill that is some inches
                                wider, you can bolt on out-riggers. then with screws on the
                                outriggers, you can position the column to be vertical by screw
                                adjustment.

                                I like the idea of some sort of rear brace to stop the column from
                                tilting either forward or back, wish I had room for that.





                                --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "John Pitkin"
                                <cedarcreekranch@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > That's funny... I thought it refers to this
                                >
                                > http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
                                > ProductID=2352&category=
                                >
                                > JP
                                >
                                > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Sebastian Kuzminsky <seb@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > corelokt308win wrote:
                                > > > Also, what is a spring loaded spindle mount?
                                > >
                                > > I think that refers to this:
                                > > <http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?
                                > ProductID=2258&category=>
                                > >
                                > > There are many variations on this idea floating around.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --
                                > > Sebastian Kuzminsky
                                > > If you need a machine today and don't buy it,
                                > > tomorrow you will have paid for it and not have it. -- Henry Ford
                                > >
                                >
                              • Barry Young
                                Hi Ken: The early projects that paid me money were odd and limited in income. I made some guitar parts for some local garage bands, repaired a friends tripod,
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 3, 2008
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                                  Hi Ken:

                                  The early projects that paid me money were odd and
                                  limited in income.

                                  I made some guitar parts for some local garage bands,
                                  repaired a friends tripod, made some aluminum stand
                                  offs for a local custom furniture maker, and deburred
                                  about 3000 bushings for an employer.

                                  One thing I did that paid well was to make replacement
                                  screws for Stanley #45 and #55 combination planes.
                                  These screws are an odd pitch which Stanley did on
                                  purpose so you would have to buy them from Stanley. I
                                  bought 12L14 steel which is an absolute dream to
                                  machine. I found a die somewhere with the odd pitch
                                  and held it in the tailstock. I built a back toolpost
                                  and mounted a parting tool. rounding the heads and
                                  cutting the screwdriver slot were done as secondary
                                  operations. The head rounding was done in the lathe
                                  with a tapped spud and form tool. The screw slotting
                                  was with another tapped block mounted to the cross
                                  slide. This setup allowed me to make these short
                                  screws at more than 40 per hour. I was able to sell
                                  1000 of them for $2 each to a guy who was the go to
                                  guy for such things at the time.

                                  A magazine article of 2000 words with photos back then
                                  paid around 300 bucks in one of the big amateur
                                  machining magazines and about fifty bucks for one of
                                  the loacal trade mags. I wrote two regular columns for
                                  about five years.

                                  Those activities paid for my equipment. So far I have
                                  sold no photo equipment at all. Our first product
                                  comes on line next month. The last four years have
                                  been spent designing and tooling up for camera
                                  products. The 60 inch CNC minimill was also built for
                                  this project. Now I just have to fine tune the
                                  processes enough to where I can hire some people to
                                  run parts while I continue design and product
                                  development. Expectations are that the camera company
                                  will generate enough money to purchase a home with a
                                  large shop without a mortgage. We will see.

                                  Good luck on your ebay item.

                                  Barry


                                  --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:

                                  > Howdy Barry,
                                  > Well i was only 1/4 the way off!
                                  >
                                  > I sorta admire you guys who actually make money with
                                  > these machines!
                                  > So far my machines have had a definite negative cash
                                  > flow considering
                                  > the mods, vises, tooling, etc. Sure i fabricated
                                  > numerous personal
                                  > projects i couldn't have done otherwise but no money
                                  > in the wallet.
                                  >
                                  > If you don't mind me asking, did your machines
                                  > initially pay for
                                  > themselves by contract jobs or your camera making
                                  > venture?
                                  > One of these days i'm gonna get enough motivational
                                  > steam up to
                                  > actually try and sell some kind of unique product on
                                  > eBay and see
                                  > what happens.
                                  >
                                  > Far as the wiring, that reminds me of when i had to
                                  > build a large
                                  > prototype mini-computer printed circuit board back
                                  > in the early 80's.
                                  > Around 100 IC chips and each pin on them dam 100
                                  > chips had to be wire
                                  > wrapped with 30 ga. wire to other pins and
                                  > connectors. These were the
                                  > days before LSIC's! No thanks..never again.
                                  > Maybe if all else fails, we both could get a job
                                  > with the local
                                  > MaBell. On second thought, Nahh! I'm enjoying my
                                  > early, early
                                  > retirement too much.
                                  > -Ken
                                  >



                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                  You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                  http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                • moparado
                                  Barry thanks for the reply. Odd and limited contract jobs are probably the safest and best way to get started. As far as producing a product, the way i see it
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 3, 2008
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                                    Barry thanks for the reply.
                                    Odd and limited contract jobs are probably the safest and best way to
                                    get started.
                                    As far as producing a product, the way i see it these days its got to
                                    be unique and intended probably for a niche market or else if the big
                                    boys sniff big money to be made they'll copy it and make it cheaper.
                                    Your camera venture and those Stanley screws seem to fall in that
                                    category.

                                    On the other hand who knows, if one comes up with a 100mpg carberator
                                    maybe the big OIL boys will just buy the rights to it or just maybe a
                                    dirt nap could be involved!

                                    Good Luck on your camera business.
                                    -Ken

                                    ---------------------
                                    --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young <barryjyoung@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Hi Ken:
                                    >
                                    > The early projects that paid me money were odd and
                                    > limited in income.
                                    >
                                    > I made some guitar parts for some local garage bands,
                                    > repaired a friends tripod, made some aluminum stand
                                    > offs for a local custom furniture maker, and deburred
                                    > about 3000 bushings for an employer.
                                    >
                                    > One thing I did that paid well was to make replacement
                                    > screws for Stanley #45 and #55 combination planes.
                                    > These screws are an odd pitch which Stanley did on
                                    > purpose so you would have to buy them from Stanley. I
                                    > bought 12L14 steel which is an absolute dream to
                                    > machine. I found a die somewhere with the odd pitch
                                    > and held it in the tailstock. I built a back toolpost
                                    > and mounted a parting tool. rounding the heads and
                                    > cutting the screwdriver slot were done as secondary
                                    > operations. The head rounding was done in the lathe
                                    > with a tapped spud and form tool. The screw slotting
                                    > was with another tapped block mounted to the cross
                                    > slide. This setup allowed me to make these short
                                    > screws at more than 40 per hour. I was able to sell
                                    > 1000 of them for $2 each to a guy who was the go to
                                    > guy for such things at the time.
                                    >
                                    > A magazine article of 2000 words with photos back then
                                    > paid around 300 bucks in one of the big amateur
                                    > machining magazines and about fifty bucks for one of
                                    > the loacal trade mags. I wrote two regular columns for
                                    > about five years.
                                    >
                                    > Those activities paid for my equipment. So far I have
                                    > sold no photo equipment at all. Our first product
                                    > comes on line next month. The last four years have
                                    > been spent designing and tooling up for camera
                                    > products. The 60 inch CNC minimill was also built for
                                    > this project. Now I just have to fine tune the
                                    > processes enough to where I can hire some people to
                                    > run parts while I continue design and product
                                    > development. Expectations are that the camera company
                                    > will generate enough money to purchase a home with a
                                    > large shop without a mortgage. We will see.
                                    >
                                    > Good luck on your ebay item.
                                    >
                                    > Barry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Howdy Barry,
                                    > > Well i was only 1/4 the way off!
                                    > >
                                    > > I sorta admire you guys who actually make money with
                                    > > these machines!
                                    > > So far my machines have had a definite negative cash
                                    > > flow considering
                                    > > the mods, vises, tooling, etc. Sure i fabricated
                                    > > numerous personal
                                    > > projects i couldn't have done otherwise but no money
                                    > > in the wallet.
                                    > >
                                    > > If you don't mind me asking, did your machines
                                    > > initially pay for
                                    > > themselves by contract jobs or your camera making
                                    > > venture?
                                    > > One of these days i'm gonna get enough motivational
                                    > > steam up to
                                    > > actually try and sell some kind of unique product on
                                    > > eBay and see
                                    > > what happens.
                                    > >
                                    > > Far as the wiring, that reminds me of when i had to
                                    > > build a large
                                    > > prototype mini-computer printed circuit board back
                                    > > in the early 80's.
                                    > > Around 100 IC chips and each pin on them dam 100
                                    > > chips had to be wire
                                    > > wrapped with 30 ga. wire to other pins and
                                    > > connectors. These were the
                                    > > days before LSIC's! No thanks..never again.
                                    > > Maybe if all else fails, we both could get a job
                                    > > with the local
                                    > > MaBell. On second thought, Nahh! I'm enjoying my
                                    > > early, early
                                    > > retirement too much.
                                    > > -Ken
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ______________________________________________________________________
                                    ______________
                                    > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of
                                    Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                    > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                    >
                                  • Barry Young
                                    Hi Ken: Um,,,if you invent a 100mpg carb and GM offers you a million bucks, take the offer, it is one you can t refuse. Leave the gun, take the canoli. Barry
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 3, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Ken:

                                      Um,,,if you invent a 100mpg carb and GM offers you a
                                      million bucks, take the offer, it is one you can't
                                      refuse.

                                      Leave the gun, take the canoli.

                                      Barry


                                      --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:

                                      > Barry thanks for the reply.
                                      > Odd and limited contract jobs are probably the
                                      > safest and best way to
                                      > get started.
                                      > As far as producing a product, the way i see it
                                      > these days its got to
                                      > be unique and intended probably for a niche market
                                      > or else if the big
                                      > boys sniff big money to be made they'll copy it and
                                      > make it cheaper.
                                      > Your camera venture and those Stanley screws seem to
                                      > fall in that
                                      > category.
                                      >
                                      > On the other hand who knows, if one comes up with a
                                      > 100mpg carberator
                                      > maybe the big OIL boys will just buy the rights to
                                      > it or just maybe a
                                      > dirt nap could be involved!
                                      >
                                      > Good Luck on your camera business.
                                      > -Ken
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------
                                      > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young
                                      > <barryjyoung@...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > Hi Ken:
                                      > >
                                      > > The early projects that paid me money were odd and
                                      > > limited in income.
                                      > >
                                      > > I made some guitar parts for some local garage
                                      > bands,
                                      > > repaired a friends tripod, made some aluminum
                                      > stand
                                      > > offs for a local custom furniture maker, and
                                      > deburred
                                      > > about 3000 bushings for an employer.
                                      > >
                                      > > One thing I did that paid well was to make
                                      > replacement
                                      > > screws for Stanley #45 and #55 combination planes.
                                      > > These screws are an odd pitch which Stanley did on
                                      > > purpose so you would have to buy them from
                                      > Stanley. I
                                      > > bought 12L14 steel which is an absolute dream to
                                      > > machine. I found a die somewhere with the odd
                                      > pitch
                                      > > and held it in the tailstock. I built a back
                                      > toolpost
                                      > > and mounted a parting tool. rounding the heads and
                                      > > cutting the screwdriver slot were done as
                                      > secondary
                                      > > operations. The head rounding was done in the
                                      > lathe
                                      > > with a tapped spud and form tool. The screw
                                      > slotting
                                      > > was with another tapped block mounted to the
                                      > cross
                                      > > slide. This setup allowed me to make these short
                                      > > screws at more than 40 per hour. I was able to
                                      > sell
                                      > > 1000 of them for $2 each to a guy who was the go
                                      > to
                                      > > guy for such things at the time.
                                      > >
                                      > > A magazine article of 2000 words with photos back
                                      > then
                                      > > paid around 300 bucks in one of the big amateur
                                      > > machining magazines and about fifty bucks for one
                                      > of
                                      > > the loacal trade mags. I wrote two regular columns
                                      > for
                                      > > about five years.
                                      > >
                                      > > Those activities paid for my equipment. So far I
                                      > have
                                      > > sold no photo equipment at all. Our first product
                                      > > comes on line next month. The last four years have
                                      > > been spent designing and tooling up for camera
                                      > > products. The 60 inch CNC minimill was also built
                                      > for
                                      > > this project. Now I just have to fine tune the
                                      > > processes enough to where I can hire some people
                                      > to
                                      > > run parts while I continue design and product
                                      > > development. Expectations are that the camera
                                      > company
                                      > > will generate enough money to purchase a home with
                                      > a
                                      > > large shop without a mortgage. We will see.
                                      > >
                                      > > Good luck on your ebay item.
                                      > >
                                      > > Barry
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Howdy Barry,
                                      > > > Well i was only 1/4 the way off!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I sorta admire you guys who actually make money
                                      > with
                                      > > > these machines!
                                      > > > So far my machines have had a definite negative
                                      > cash
                                      > > > flow considering
                                      > > > the mods, vises, tooling, etc. Sure i fabricated
                                      > > > numerous personal
                                      > > > projects i couldn't have done otherwise but no
                                      > money
                                      > > > in the wallet.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > If you don't mind me asking, did your machines
                                      > > > initially pay for
                                      > > > themselves by contract jobs or your camera
                                      > making
                                      > > > venture?
                                      > > > One of these days i'm gonna get enough
                                      > motivational
                                      > > > steam up to
                                      > > > actually try and sell some kind of unique
                                      > product on
                                      > > > eBay and see
                                      > > > what happens.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Far as the wiring, that reminds me of when i had
                                      > to
                                      > > > build a large
                                      > > > prototype mini-computer printed circuit board
                                      > back
                                      > > > in the early 80's.
                                      > > > Around 100 IC chips and each pin on them dam 100
                                      > > > chips had to be wire
                                      > > > wrapped with 30 ga. wire to other pins and
                                      > > > connectors. These were the
                                      > > > days before LSIC's! No thanks..never again.
                                      > > > Maybe if all else fails, we both could get a job
                                      > > > with the local
                                      > > > MaBell. On second thought, Nahh! I'm enjoying my
                                      > > > early, early
                                      > > > retirement too much.
                                      > > > -Ken
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      ______________________________________________________________________
                                      > ______________
                                      > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you
                                      > one month of
                                      > Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                      > > http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                      >
                                      > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                      You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                      http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                    • Barry Young
                                      Yes, it cleared them up fine. Thank you. Now we can get back to machining. Barry ...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                        Yes, it cleared them up fine. Thank you. Now we can
                                        get back to machining.



                                        Barry


                                        --- k1hop <k1hop@...> wrote:

                                        > It's a matter of semantics... and imprecise
                                        > language:
                                        >
                                        > If you are talking the efficiency "OF THE HEATER
                                        > ITSELF" you are
                                        > correct. But if (like most practical people think)
                                        > you are talking
                                        > the efficiency "OF THE HOUSE WARMING SYSTEM" (for
                                        > example) then
                                        > anything that doesn't go toward the intended purpose
                                        > is a loss, and
                                        > efficiency suffers.
                                        >
                                        > I believe your physics professor was trying to make
                                        > a somewhat
                                        > philosophical point, and he's right when you
                                        > consider the "system"
                                        > he's defining the efficiency of. But, practical
                                        > engineered solutions
                                        > to real problems are talking different systems, not
                                        > the entire heater
                                        > as a whole.
                                        >
                                        > Hope that helps to clear things somewhat.
                                        >
                                        > Russ K1HOP
                                        > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, Barry Young
                                        > <barryjyoung@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hey Druid:
                                        > >
                                        > > So if I try to heat my house by putting a 150 watt
                                        > > heater in my garage is the heater less efficient
                                        > > simply because I am a moron? No. The users plans
                                        > in no
                                        > > way affect the efficiency of a heater.
                                        > >
                                        > > You put in 500 watts of electrical energy, 500
                                        > watts
                                        > > of heat energy come out. That is 100% efficiency.
                                        > > Where is the waste? If you do not get 500 watts of
                                        > > heat energy or some other type of energy out,
                                        > where
                                        > > exactly does the waste go? I agree, there will be
                                        > some
                                        > > energy that is emitted in the form of light, but
                                        > that
                                        > > is the only thing I can think of that would in any
                                        > way
                                        > > limit a heaters efficiency.
                                        > >
                                        > > Barry
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                        >
                                        > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                        http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                      • Barry Young
                                        And now back to machining. This thread is dead. Barry Young ... ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 5, 2008
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                                          And now back to machining. This thread is dead.

                                          Barry Young


                                          --- yenomon70 <yenomon70@...> wrote:

                                          > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "moparado"
                                          > <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                                          > Hi Ken RIGHT ON
                                          >
                                          > How about running for president. GRAB THOSE BALLS
                                          > You sound like me and my sermons
                                          > Thanks for that little bit of REALITY
                                          > Bob
                                          >
                                          > > Mike,
                                          > > Bingo!!
                                          > > Electric motors are extremely efficient compared
                                          > to IC engines.
                                          > > Electric propelled cars are in our future once the
                                          > battery issue
                                          > > undergoes a quantum leap in technology or in the
                                          > least until the
                                          > > government releases their top secret energy
                                          > technologies.
                                          > >
                                          > > The current problem with electric or hybrid autos
                                          > is that charging
                                          > > the batteries is inefficient. The initial charging
                                          > current has to
                                          > > come from somewhere. Where, why the local power
                                          > company which of
                                          > > course is most likely coal or gas fired.
                                          > >
                                          > > The only way i see around this whole energy
                                          > problem with current
                                          > > technology is to replace some of these ancient
                                          > coal/fuel fired
                                          > power
                                          > > plants with nuclear. France gets something like
                                          > 80% of their
                                          > > electrical power from nuclear reactors.
                                          > > By the way what ever happend to fusion nuclear
                                          > research? It was in
                                          > > the news a few years ago and now NOTHING! Not
                                          > until every last
                                          > penny
                                          > > is made from the last drop of crude will we see
                                          > new 'miracle'
                                          > energy
                                          > > technologies emerge. Reasons to invade soverign
                                          > nations to steal
                                          > > their wealth via transnational corporations?
                                          > >
                                          > > What this country needs now more than ever is
                                          > strong leadership
                                          > like
                                          > > a President who will take the bull by the balls
                                          > and declare an
                                          > > intense national priority research effort not
                                          > unlike President
                                          > > Kennedy's man on the moon program to get us off
                                          > foreign oil
                                          > > dependency.
                                          > > Ain't gonna happen though! Too much crude reserves
                                          > owned by Big
                                          > Oil.
                                          > > Future profits to be made from all that black gold
                                          > still
                                          > underground.
                                          > > Money in the bank so to speak. Reasons for future
                                          > wars to be had
                                          > > enriching Defense contractors and the Haliburtons
                                          > of the world from
                                          > > our tax dollars. Remember President Eisenhowers
                                          > farewell speech
                                          > > regarding his warning of the military industrial
                                          > complex?
                                          > >
                                          > > More borrowed money to fund these wars which
                                          > enrich the Fed.
                                          > Reserve
                                          > > Bank, a privately owned bank no less! Our nat'l
                                          > debt stands at over
                                          > > NINE TRILLION dollars and every April 15 we have
                                          > to pay the Fed
                                          > > Reserve Bank around 400 Billion dollars in
                                          > interest for that
                                          > > staggering and increasingly irreversible debt.
                                          > > Yep a large percentage of our Federal Tax Dollars
                                          > goes just to pay
                                          > > the interest on the Nat'l Debt. 400 Billion of our
                                          > hard earned Tax
                                          > > Dollars for all practical purposes down the
                                          > toilet!
                                          > > Ever hear any of these Presidental candidates talk
                                          > about any this?
                                          > Of
                                          > > course not! They're all in on it! Thats why they
                                          > are the candidates.
                                          > >
                                          > > Don't get me going on fuel prices!! Its all BS!!
                                          > Its no accident
                                          > fuel
                                          > > prices rose after the so called Iraqi War. Its all
                                          > part of the
                                          > grand
                                          > > plan.
                                          > >
                                          > > Conspiracies? You bet! Just open your eyes and
                                          > comprehend whats
                                          > > actually happening around you.
                                          > >
                                          > > Sorry about the rants, but dammit we all better
                                          > wake up!!
                                          > > -Ken
                                          > >
                                          > > --------------------------------------------
                                          > > "upand_at_them" <upand_at_them@> wrote:
                                          > > > No, it doesn't make sense that "we should be
                                          > able to get
                                          > something
                                          > > like 50% of the energy".
                                          > > > Not that it won't ever be done, but your 90%
                                          > efficient heater is
                                          > > > producing HEAT, the least useful form of energy.
                                          > Car engines are
                                          > > > pretty good at producing heat too. What they
                                          > aren't efficient at
                                          > > doing is producing USEFUL, MECHANICAL energy.
                                          > > > Mike
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Dave
                                          > Mucha" <dave_mucha@>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > > theorys are fun, but since we only really get
                                          > about 30%
                                          > > efficiency out
                                          > > > > of a gallon of gas, there is a LOT or energy
                                          > wasted.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > It only makes sense that we should be able to
                                          > get something
                                          > like
                                          > > 50%
                                          > > > > of the energy.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > My home heater gas or oil is over 90%.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Dave
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                          >
                                          > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >



                                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                          You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                          http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                        • Barry Young
                                          OK, enough politics everyone. Please do not respond to this thread. If you want politics, go to a politics group. Love the message, just not here. Thank you
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 5, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            OK, enough politics everyone. Please do not respond to
                                            this thread.

                                            If you want politics, go to a politics group.

                                            Love the message, just not here.

                                            Thank you

                                            Barry, the tyrant that keeps this group a machining
                                            group.


                                            --- moparado <kenwm2@...> wrote:

                                            > The last President who grabbed any balls was
                                            > President Kennedy. Look
                                            > where he ended up!!! In addition to wanting to
                                            > prevent the Vietnam
                                            > War he also wanted to get rid of the Fed Res. and
                                            > stay on the Gold
                                            > Standard instead the phony fiat money we have today,
                                            > that was the
                                            > last nail in his coffin.
                                            > We had a chance to nominate the only true
                                            > Constitutional patriot for
                                            > the Presidency, Texas Rep. Ron Paul who never voted
                                            > for any
                                            > unConstitutional Bill. He also voted against giving
                                            > the authority to
                                            > invade Iraq on Constitutional grounds. Since the
                                            > current Prez took
                                            > office our Nat'l debt has increased by approx. THREE
                                            > TRILLION dollars!
                                            > And i voted for the guy the first go around.
                                            >
                                            > This November, i'm gonna either sit it out or vote
                                            > Libertarian as i
                                            > ain't gonna vote anymore for the lesser of two
                                            > evils, the hallmark of
                                            > our 'catch22' two party system.
                                            >
                                            > Looks like we Americans are gonna get the government
                                            > we deserve once
                                            > again.
                                            > -Ken
                                            >
                                            > -------------------------
                                            > "yenomon70" <yenomon70@...> wrote:
                                            > > Hi Ken RIGHT ON
                                            > > How about running for president. GRAB THOSE BALLS
                                            > > You sound like me and my sermons
                                            > > Thanks for that little bit of REALITY
                                            > > Bob
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > ----------------------
                                            > >"moparado" <kenwm2@> wrote:
                                            > > > Mike,
                                            > > > Bingo!!
                                            > > > Electric motors are extremely efficient compared
                                            > to IC engines.
                                            > > > Electric propelled cars are in our future once
                                            > the battery issue
                                            > > > undergoes a quantum leap in technology or in the
                                            > least until the
                                            > > > government releases their top secret energy
                                            > technologies.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The current problem with electric or hybrid
                                            > autos is that
                                            > charging
                                            > > > the batteries is inefficient. The initial
                                            > charging current has to
                                            > > > come from somewhere. Where, why the local power
                                            > company which of
                                            > > > course is most likely coal or gas fired.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The only way i see around this whole energy
                                            > problem with current
                                            > > > technology is to replace some of these ancient
                                            > coal/fuel fired
                                            > > power
                                            > > > plants with nuclear. France gets something like
                                            > 80% of their
                                            > > > electrical power from nuclear reactors.
                                            > > > By the way what ever happend to fusion nuclear
                                            > research? It was
                                            > in
                                            > > > the news a few years ago and now NOTHING! Not
                                            > until every last
                                            > > penny
                                            > > > is made from the last drop of crude will we see
                                            > new 'miracle'
                                            > > energy
                                            > > > technologies emerge. Reasons to invade soverign
                                            > nations to steal
                                            > > > their wealth via transnational corporations?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > What this country needs now more than ever is
                                            > strong leadership
                                            > > like
                                            > > > a President who will take the bull by the balls
                                            > and declare an
                                            > > > intense national priority research effort not
                                            > unlike President
                                            > > > Kennedy's man on the moon program to get us off
                                            > foreign oil
                                            > > > dependency.
                                            > > > Ain't gonna happen though! Too much crude
                                            > reserves owned by Big
                                            > > Oil.
                                            > > > Future profits to be made from all that black
                                            > gold still
                                            > > underground.
                                            > > > Money in the bank so to speak. Reasons for
                                            > future wars to be had
                                            > > > enriching Defense contractors and the
                                            > Haliburtons of the world
                                            > from
                                            > > > our tax dollars. Remember President Eisenhowers
                                            > farewell speech
                                            > > > regarding his warning of the military industrial
                                            > complex?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > More borrowed money to fund these wars which
                                            > enrich the Fed.
                                            > > Reserve
                                            > > > Bank, a privately owned bank no less! Our nat'l
                                            > debt stands at
                                            > over
                                            > > > NINE TRILLION dollars and every April 15 we have
                                            > to pay the Fed
                                            > > > Reserve Bank around 400 Billion dollars in
                                            > interest for that
                                            > > > staggering and increasingly irreversible debt.
                                            > > > Yep a large percentage of our Federal Tax
                                            > Dollars goes just to
                                            > pay
                                            > > > the interest on the Nat'l Debt. 400 Billion of
                                            > our hard earned
                                            > Tax
                                            > > > Dollars for all practical purposes down the
                                            > toilet!
                                            > > > Ever hear any of these Presidental candidates
                                            > talk about any
                                            > this?
                                            > > Of
                                            > > > course not! They're all in on it! Thats why they
                                            > are the
                                            > candidates.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Don't get me going on fuel prices!! Its all BS!!
                                            > Its no accident
                                            > > fuel
                                            > > > prices rose after the so called Iraqi War. Its
                                            > all part of the
                                            > > grand
                                            > > > plan.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Conspiracies? You bet! Just open your eyes and
                                            > comprehend whats
                                            > > > actually happening around you.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Sorry about the rants, but dammit we all better
                                            > wake up!!
                                            > > > -Ken
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --------------------------------------------
                                            > > > "upand_at_them" <upand_at_them@> wrote:
                                            > > > > No, it doesn't make sense that "we should be
                                            > able to get
                                            > > something
                                            > > > like 50% of the energy".
                                            > > > > Not that it won't ever be done, but your 90%
                                            > efficient heater
                                            > is
                                            > > > > producing HEAT, the least useful form of
                                            > energy. Car engines
                                            > are
                                            > > > > pretty good at producing heat too. What they
                                            > aren't efficient
                                            > at
                                            > > > doing is producing USEFUL, MECHANICAL energy.
                                            > > > > Mike
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "Dave
                                            > Mucha"
                                            > <dave_mucha@>
                                            > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > theorys are fun, but since we only really
                                            > get about 30%
                                            > > > efficiency out
                                            > > > > > of a gallon of gas, there is a LOT or energy
                                            > wasted.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > It only makes sense that we should be able
                                            > to get something
                                            > > like
                                            > > > 50%
                                            > > > > > of the energy.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > My home heater gas or oil is over 90%.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Dave
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                            >
                                            > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                            You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
                                            http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
                                          • Tony Smith
                                            Ceramic engines have been around for a while. I can t remember why they haven t become popular, but I d assume it s the usual reason - price. I vaguely
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 6, 2008
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                                              Ceramic engines have been around for a while.  I can't remember why they haven't become popular, but I'd assume it's the usual reason - price.  I vaguely recall there being a technical reason, I might have go Google that.
                                               
                                              Tony 
                                              Once we can build ceramic engines we can run them at higher temperatures and radicaly improve combustion efficiency. Using such an engine and a combined cycle poweplant we could recycle waste heat with a high pressure boiler jacket and turbine,also coupled to the exhaust. We also may achieve higher efficiency with an ultrasonic volatizer fuel injection system which will efficiently atomize fuel and crack heavy hydrocarbons giving multi-fuel capability.

                                              upand_at_them <upand_at_them@...> wrote:
                                              The stored energy is stored in the fuel. Some of it may go unburned.

                                              Mike

                                              --- In GrizHFMinimill@ yahoogroups. com, Barry Young <barryjyoung@ ...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi Mike:
                                              >
                                              > Whether the heat goes where you want it or not is not
                                              > a measure of the heaters efficiency. No heat is lost
                                              > just because it is not going where it is wanted.
                                              >
                                              > All of the energy that is used is being converted to
                                              > heat. Where is the waste/inefficiency? If it is lost
                                              > as waste heat it is nevertheless heat.
                                              >
                                              > The law of conservation of energy requires that all
                                              > the energy put into something be either used or stored
                                              > and I am pretty sure your heater isn't storing any
                                              > energy.
                                              >
                                              > Are there any thermodynamics guys out there who can
                                              > chime in? I am way out of my field here and would
                                              > appreciate someone who actually KNOWS straightening
                                              > Mike and I out. Thanks in advance.
                                              >
                                              > Barry
                                            • Barry Young
                                              Again: this is not a political forum, please move back to something machining related. Thank you Barry Young Group Owner. ...
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Apr 6, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Again:

                                                this is not a political forum, please move back to
                                                something machining related. Thank you

                                                Barry Young
                                                Group Owner.


                                                --- Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> wrote:

                                                > --- In GrizHFMinimill@yahoogroups.com, "moparado"
                                                > <kenwm2@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Anyone who doesn't believe in conspiracies just
                                                > take a look at the
                                                > > three knuckle heads running for President! Out of
                                                > 300 million
                                                > > Americans, this is the best we can do?
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > yeah, seems even the mail rooms have lay offs and
                                                > three of those got
                                                > an idea that 'anybody' can run for president.
                                                >
                                                > No presidential material if you put the three
                                                > together !
                                                >
                                                > Dave
                                                > (commenting on the sorry state of affairs, not on
                                                > any party or candidate)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                                                >
                                                > mailto:GrizHFMinimill-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >



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