Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Brainless, shameless, moralising rubbish from GLW Paramatta

Expand Messages
  • simon butler
    I think what Bob really wanted to say in his post here is that he fully agrees with DSP members that the article attacking Mike Moore is atrocious. But of
    Message 1 of 22 , May 24, 2004
    • 0 Attachment

      I think what Bob really wanted to say in his post here is that he fully agrees with DSP members that the article attacking Mike Moore is atrocious.

      But of course when you are so embarrassed that a long time member of your own political party (a party you have resolved to defend forever, no matter what it does and regardless of what changes occur in Australian political life) could write and defend such conservative and damaging crap in the public arena then you might draw just the conclusion that the best form of defense in this case is attack. Maybe even frenzied, abusive, hyperbolic attack.

      Bob obviously drew this conclusion. And so now existing commentary on this article is just so much more evidence of the DSP's brainless, shameless moralising and wanton inability to distinguish the ALP leadership from the rank and file. It was a nice try but I don't think you're fooling anyone Bob.

      simon b

       


      Do you Yahoo!?
      Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
    • Duncan.Meerding
      Bob in his contribution forgot to tell us that the Labor Party is not entirely homogonous and although yeah selling alot of michael moore books at the ALP
      Message 2 of 22 , May 24, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Bob in his contribution forgot to tell us that the Labor Party is not entirely homogonous and although yeah selling alot of michael moore books at the ALP conference is interesting, but do you read things that you disagree with bo, just because some body buys a book to read does not mean that they are going to read it. FOr an example i read the liberal crap that is shoved down my throat on the russian revolution, does this mean i agree with it. Or that i read moore and disagree withwhat he says on some things. People often see things or read them just for the fact that they know what they are critiscieing is this point not obvious.
         
        Duncan M

         


        Do you Yahoo!?
        Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger

        Visit http://www.greenleft.org.au


      • alanb1000
        ... know what they are critiscieing is this point not obvious. This is fine, except that it is quite likely that most of the people who were buying these books
        Message 3 of 22 , May 25, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          "Duncan.Meerding" wrote:
          > People often see things or read them just for the fact that they
          know what they are critiscieing is this point not obvious.

          This is fine, except that it is quite likely that most of the people
          who were buying these books were buying them because they thought they
          might find them interesting.

          It is true that the ALP is not homogeneous. That's one of the
          reasons why it is possible to make both sectarian and opportunist
          errors in dealing with it.
        • ozleft
          By Bob Gould Most of the comments on my post of last night are deliberately insulting and show up in bold relief the underlying political outlook of the DSP
          Message 4 of 22 , May 25, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            By Bob Gould

            Most of the comments on my post of last night are deliberately
            insulting and show up in bold relief the underlying political outlook
            of the DSP leadership.

            Lordludd deliberately insults me by asserting that I'm trying to get
            the right-winger, Nolan, to sue him. How stupid can you get? I was
            simply trying to help Brother Ludd by pointing out the danger, both to
            himself and the Green Left list, of recklessly throwing around
            thoughtless rhetoric about scabs, particularly against an industrial
            lawyer.

            In this context, my concern for the interests of the Green Left list,
            which from time to time I find a useful platform, and even for the
            dopey Lordludd, is genuine.

            A leftist of my acquaintance once had to pull up stakes and move
            states to escape a libel writ from a right wing union official who he
            had rather unwisely called a scab. A rank and file leftist ironworkers
            union leader in Newcastle, with whom I was acquainted, had to sell his
            house when he lost a libel case against a right-wing union official.

            In the overheated, politically hysterical, atmosphere generated by the
            DSP leadership in the DSP ranks these considerations don't seem to
            rate at all. Despite the obvious political disagreements I have with
            the DSP leadership I'm genuinely shaken by how little attention they
            seem to pay to these kinds of questions, in pursuit of their mistaken,
            sectarian political line.

            At the very least, the moderator of the list should declare a
            moratorium on language about scabs, applied to living individuals. I
            have no intention of drawing Mr Nolan's attention to this craziness on
            the GLW list, but if he's a normal, opinionated pundit, as he seems to
            be, he's likely to Google his own name from time to time to see what
            people say about him.

            Lordludd, GLParamatta and others are behaving very recklessly indeed,
            and my purpose in raising the question is to draw attention to how
            reckless this rhetoric is to the other 300-odd participants in this list.

            All concerned should knock off crazy rhetoric about scabs.

            My other purpose, obviously, is to raise very sharply the vicious
            sectarianism towards the ranks of the labour movement displayed in
            GLParamatta's header, and the lack of a sense of proportion and
            judgment. The attempt is made, and continued by Lordludd and Simon
            Butler, to associate Laborites in general with the reactionary views
            of Nolan, in pursuit of the DSP's bankrupt schema about Labor being
            one of the two capitalist parties, ignoring the social location and
            social base of the ALP.

            GLParamatta's timing is unfortunate, from his point of view. Today's
            Sydney Morning Herald polls seems to show a rather substantial
            electoral swing to Labor, and the pollsters, in trying to explain it,
            associate the swing with Labor's opposition to the Iraq war.

            The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the
            war, but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as well. Only a
            minority of Liberal voters are opposed, although the number of antiwar
            Liberals has increased.

            I'm struck forcibly by the fact that no-one on the GLW list has even
            mentioned today's poll. DSP leadership supporters are usually very
            quick to draw attention to polls showing increased opposition to the
            Iraq war, but it seems this poll, which shows the overwhelming
            correlation between voting Labor and opposing the war, is to be
            ignored -- because it might sow illusions in Laborism, perhaps.

            This poll underlines the class and political division between the Tory
            right and the Labor-Green left in Australian society.

            The DSP leadership can't cope with this phenomenon, because it doesn't
            fit their schema, and they're driven to exactly the same device as the
            right-wing Murdoch newspapers, of holding up an isolated right-winger,
            called Nolan, as somehow representative of Laborism, despite all
            evidence to the contrary, in things like the statements of Labor
            leaders against the Iraq war and today's polls.

            Duncan Meerding insults the Laborites who bought Moore's books at the
            ALP state conference, saying they probably didn't read them. What a
            dope this man is! In my experience as a bookseller everybody who buys
            Michael Moore reads him, including Laborites, because he's so funny
            and effective.

            The ruling classes of the US and Australia are positively apopleptic
            about Michael Moore, witness P.P. McGuiness's similar assault to Nolan
            on him this morning in the Sydney Morning Herald. (McGuiness's attack
            doesn't rate a mention on the Green Left list, but then McGuiness
            can't be as easily fitted into Laborism as Nolan. Incidentally, GLW
            website participants only have the Australian's word for it about
            Nolan's Labor Party membership. Nolan may be trading on past
            associations, and may not even be a current ALP member, but none of
            that's of any interest on the GLW list. Anything goes if you want to
            kick the Laborites.)

            From a socialist point of view, this DSP leadership sectarianism is
            monumentally stupid. There is a very substantial polarisation in
            Australian society building as the federal elections approach. The
            hopes of the Labor-Green left side of Australian society are now
            heavily invested in the prospect of the Labor-Green side defeating the
            Liberals electorally, with the inevitable prospect of a Green balance
            of power in the Senate.

            The possibility of defeating the Liberals is the central axis of
            current Australian politics, and even in a secondary way of world
            politics. The election of a Labor government that withdraws Australian
            troops from Iraq will be a very major blow to imperialism. Even the
            dopiest political observers can see this, and that's driving the
            reactionary side of Australian politics off its tree. In this
            situation, all the DSP leadership can think to do is grasp at straws,
            in this instance Mr Nolan, to try to create an impression that
            Laborites in general support the Iraq war.

            The DSP leadership is the only group of people in Australian society
            who hold this eccentric view, and the ruthless, reckless and
            inaccurate way their prosecute this view tends to cut them off from
            the whole left of Australian society, which has other things on its
            mind, in particular defeating the Liberals in the elections.

            If there's a material crisis in the DSP, which is now pretty public,
            it has everything to do with the DSP leadership's dead-end sectarian
            political line towards the workers movement and the coming federal
            elections.
          • alanb1000
            ... Don t tease us Bob. Tell us about this crisis. Or is this just another figment of your imagination?
            Message 5 of 22 , May 25, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Bob Gould wrote:
              > If there's a material crisis in the DSP, which is now pretty public,
              > it has everything to do with the DSP leadership's dead-end sectarian
              > political line towards the workers movement and the coming federal
              > elections.

              Don't tease us Bob. Tell us about this crisis.

              Or is this just another figment of your imagination?
            • Duncan.Meerding
              Just to clarify something for bob gould as he should re read my original reply. I did not say that they did not read them I said that people read things and
              Message 6 of 22 , May 25, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Just to clarify something for bob gould as he should re read my original
                reply. I did not say that they did not read them I said that people read
                things and may not nececerilly adree with the politics inside of it.
                Before you say someone is a dope readn posts properly as not to
                embarrass your self.
                And just because labour voters are anti war, does not mean that Labor is
                an effective fighting force within the left movements especially the ant
                war movement. From my out look it seems as if labours idea of movwement
                work is to divide them. You just have to look at the ant war coalition
                in Perth and Sydney to see a direct example of this.
                DSP sectariansism, yeah that's why we are in the process of unification
                with other left parties.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: ozleft [mailto:ozleft@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:18 PM
                To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Brainless, shameless, moralising
                rubbish from GLW Paramatta

                By Bob Gould

                Most of the comments on my post of last night are deliberately insulting
                and show up in bold relief the underlying political outlook of the DSP
                leadership.

                Lordludd deliberately insults me by asserting that I'm trying to get the
                right-winger, Nolan, to sue him. How stupid can you get? I was simply
                trying to help Brother Ludd by pointing out the danger, both to himself
                and the Green Left list, of recklessly throwing around thoughtless
                rhetoric about scabs, particularly against an industrial lawyer.

                In this context, my concern for the interests of the Green Left list,
                which from time to time I find a useful platform, and even for the dopey
                Lordludd, is genuine.

                A leftist of my acquaintance once had to pull up stakes and move states
                to escape a libel writ from a right wing union official who he had
                rather unwisely called a scab. A rank and file leftist ironworkers union
                leader in Newcastle, with whom I was acquainted, had to sell his house
                when he lost a libel case against a right-wing union official.

                In the overheated, politically hysterical, atmosphere generated by the
                DSP leadership in the DSP ranks these considerations don't seem to rate
                at all. Despite the obvious political disagreements I have with the DSP
                leadership I'm genuinely shaken by how little attention they seem to pay
                to these kinds of questions, in pursuit of their mistaken, sectarian
                political line.

                At the very least, the moderator of the list should declare a moratorium
                on language about scabs, applied to living individuals. I have no
                intention of drawing Mr Nolan's attention to this craziness on the GLW
                list, but if he's a normal, opinionated pundit, as he seems to be, he's
                likely to Google his own name from time to time to see what people say
                about him.

                Lordludd, GLParamatta and others are behaving very recklessly indeed,
                and my purpose in raising the question is to draw attention to how
                reckless this rhetoric is to the other 300-odd participants in this
                list.

                All concerned should knock off crazy rhetoric about scabs.

                My other purpose, obviously, is to raise very sharply the vicious
                sectarianism towards the ranks of the labour movement displayed in
                GLParamatta's header, and the lack of a sense of proportion and
                judgment. The attempt is made, and continued by Lordludd and Simon
                Butler, to associate Laborites in general with the reactionary views of
                Nolan, in pursuit of the DSP's bankrupt schema about Labor being one of
                the two capitalist parties, ignoring the social location and social base
                of the ALP.

                GLParamatta's timing is unfortunate, from his point of view. Today's
                Sydney Morning Herald polls seems to show a rather substantial electoral
                swing to Labor, and the pollsters, in trying to explain it, associate
                the swing with Labor's opposition to the Iraq war.

                The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the war,
                but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as well. Only a minority of
                Liberal voters are opposed, although the number of antiwar Liberals has
                increased.

                I'm struck forcibly by the fact that no-one on the GLW list has even
                mentioned today's poll. DSP leadership supporters are usually very quick
                to draw attention to polls showing increased opposition to the Iraq war,
                but it seems this poll, which shows the overwhelming correlation between
                voting Labor and opposing the war, is to be ignored -- because it might
                sow illusions in Laborism, perhaps.

                This poll underlines the class and political division between the Tory
                right and the Labor-Green left in Australian society.

                The DSP leadership can't cope with this phenomenon, because it doesn't
                fit their schema, and they're driven to exactly the same device as the
                right-wing Murdoch newspapers, of holding up an isolated right-winger,
                called Nolan, as somehow representative of Laborism, despite all
                evidence to the contrary, in things like the statements of Labor leaders
                against the Iraq war and today's polls.

                Duncan Meerding insults the Laborites who bought Moore's books at the
                ALP state conference, saying they probably didn't read them. What a dope
                this man is! In my experience as a bookseller everybody who buys Michael
                Moore reads him, including Laborites, because he's so funny and
                effective.

                The ruling classes of the US and Australia are positively apopleptic
                about Michael Moore, witness P.P. McGuiness's similar assault to Nolan
                on him this morning in the Sydney Morning Herald. (McGuiness's attack
                doesn't rate a mention on the Green Left list, but then McGuiness can't
                be as easily fitted into Laborism as Nolan. Incidentally, GLW website
                participants only have the Australian's word for it about Nolan's Labor
                Party membership. Nolan may be trading on past associations, and may not
                even be a current ALP member, but none of that's of any interest on the
                GLW list. Anything goes if you want to kick the Laborites.)

                From a socialist point of view, this DSP leadership sectarianism is
                monumentally stupid. There is a very substantial polarisation in
                Australian society building as the federal elections approach. The hopes
                of the Labor-Green left side of Australian society are now heavily
                invested in the prospect of the Labor-Green side defeating the Liberals
                electorally, with the inevitable prospect of a Green balance of power in
                the Senate.

                The possibility of defeating the Liberals is the central axis of current
                Australian politics, and even in a secondary way of world politics. The
                election of a Labor government that withdraws Australian troops from
                Iraq will be a very major blow to imperialism. Even the dopiest
                political observers can see this, and that's driving the reactionary
                side of Australian politics off its tree. In this situation, all the DSP
                leadership can think to do is grasp at straws, in this instance Mr
                Nolan, to try to create an impression that Laborites in general support
                the Iraq war.

                The DSP leadership is the only group of people in Australian society who
                hold this eccentric view, and the ruthless, reckless and inaccurate way
                their prosecute this view tends to cut them off from the whole left of
                Australian society, which has other things on its mind, in particular
                defeating the Liberals in the elections.

                If there's a material crisis in the DSP, which is now pretty public, it
                has everything to do with the DSP leadership's dead-end sectarian
                political line towards the workers movement and the coming federal
                elections.




                ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
                Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
                http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/KlSolB/TM
                --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

                Visit http://www.greenleft.org.au
                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Duncan.Meerding
                I agree with alan b analisis here, but what does michael moore argue, True liberalism to the core. ... From: alanb1000 [mailto:neilgodfrey@dodo.com.au] Sent:
                Message 7 of 22 , May 25, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  I agree with alan b analisis here, but what does michael moore argue,
                  True liberalism to the core.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: alanb1000 [mailto:neilgodfrey@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, 25 May 2004 10:02 PM
                  To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Brainless, shameless, moralising
                  rubbish from GLW Paramatta

                  "Duncan.Meerding" wrote:
                  > People often see things or read them just for the fact that they
                  know what they are critiscieing is this point not obvious.

                  This is fine, except that it is quite likely that most of the people
                  who were buying these books were buying them because they thought they
                  might find them interesting.

                  It is true that the ALP is not homogeneous. That's one of the
                  reasons why it is possible to make both sectarian and opportunist
                  errors in dealing with it.




                  Visit http://www.greenleft.org.au
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • renegardner2000
                  ... Perhaps this is what Bob Gould is referring to. I saw it the other day. Don t know whether the circulars are genuine.
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >>Don't tease us Bob. Tell us about this crisis.>>

                    Perhaps this is what Bob Gould is referring to. I saw it the other
                    day. Don't know whether the circulars are genuine.
                    http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=41641&group=webcast

                    Rene
                  • alanb1000
                    ... http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=41641&group=webcast ... Hmm. OK, that makes sense. Unfortunately problems like this are pretty inevitable
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      "renegardner2000" wrote:
                      > Perhaps this is what Bob Gould is referring to. I saw it the other
                      > day. Don't know whether the circulars are genuine.
                      >
                      http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=41641&group=webcast
                      >

                      Hmm. OK, that makes sense.

                      Unfortunately problems like this are pretty inevitable results of
                      turns like the DSP has made to the SA.

                      The DSP has turned their attention away from recruiting and
                      fundraising for the DSP. This means that if their membership and
                      income haven't already dropped, it will in the near future.

                      There are probably also some political problems about what norms of
                      political activity their members should be guided by. The pace of
                      activity in the SA is undoubtedly slower. That will be reflected in
                      other levels of committment as well.

                      To put it simply: DSP members, and particularly DSP organisers, have
                      been busy elsewhere, and haven't been paying attention to their own
                      organisation.

                      This is predictable.

                      It is also a bad thing, since it will impact on Green Left Weekly (and
                      the SA, but I'm not an SA member).

                      I'm sure that Green Left would benefit from any spare cash anyone has
                      lying around...
                    • Nick Fredman
                      The gleeful way infantile anarchist types spread internal documents of left groups around on lists like the various Indymedia sites when they manage to filch
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The gleeful way infantile anarchist types spread internal documents
                        of left groups around on lists like the various Indymedia sites when
                        they manage to filch them (oh how clever and radical they must be) is
                        quite tiresome and completely unproductive, as the fairly typical
                        discussion in the link given by renegardne shows. Bob Gould to his
                        discredit plays this game too, though not in as juvenile and useless
                        a way as the arrogant and smug "libertarians" who litter Indymedia
                        lists. What Bon shares with these dilettantes though is using every
                        skerrick of internal information to bolster their criticisms,
                        regardless of evidence and even logic.

                        If there is current financial problems in the DSP, it defies all
                        logic that this would have anything to do with what Bob claims as
                        crazy sectarianism towards the ALP, as Bob has repeatedly told us the
                        DSP committed this original sin back in 1984. It is also very hard to
                        see, as the person on Indymedia claims, how a frank appraisal of a
                        difficult financial situation, put in a context of complex political
                        tactics, has anything to do with "obscuring political difficulties".
                        The rest of this discussion is at the same political level as that of
                        anarchists who write naughty things on socialist posters.

                        Enough with the sad titillation to be gained from peeking at internal
                        newsletters, unless they make a real political point, and let's have
                        some political discussion.
                        --
                      • glparramatta
                        One constructive thing list members and GLW readers can do -- financial crisis or not -- is to make a decent donation to ensure that GLW and this list
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One constructive thing list members and GLW readers can do --
                          financial crisis or not -- is to make a decent donation to ensure that
                          GLW and this list continues. Perhaps Bob Gould could lead by example,
                          since this list provides him such a ``useful forum''.

                          Go to http://www.greenleft.org.au/fogl.htm and fill in the form.

                          Norm (aka Brainless, Shameless, Moralising Rubbish -- it's amazing how
                          many conclusions you can draw from one simple subject line)

                          --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, Nick Fredman <sra@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > The gleeful way infantile anarchist types spread internal documents
                          > of left groups around on lists like the various Indymedia sites when
                          > they manage to filch them
                          >
                          > If there is current financial problems in the DSP, it defies all
                          > logic that this would have anything to do with what Bob claims as
                          > crazy sectarianism towards the ALP, as Bob has repeatedly told us the
                          > DSP committed this original sin back in 1984.
                          >
                          > Enough with the sad titillation to be gained from peeking at internal
                          > newsletters, unless they make a real political point, and let's have
                          > some political discussion.
                          > --
                        • Michael Karadjis
                          Nick Fredman ... It made me feel a little sheltered when I read the commentary of the libertarians in their discussion of the
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            "Nick Fredman" <sra@...>
                            wrote:
                            > The gleeful way infantile anarchist types spread internal documents
                            > of left groups around on lists like the various Indymedia sites when
                            > they manage to filch them (oh how clever and radical they must be) is
                            > quite tiresome and completely unproductive, as the fairly typical
                            > discussion in the link given by renegardne shows. >
                            > The rest of this discussion is at the same political level as that of
                            > anarchists who write naughty things on socialist posters.

                            It made me feel a little 'sheltered' when I read the commentary of the
                            "libertarians" in their "discussion" of the documents, because I was
                            actually surprised to find people seeing themselves as "left" in some sense
                            writing such amazingly infantile stuff.

                            It reminds Nick of anarchists who write naughty things on socialist posters,
                            but it reminded me more of kids who draw pictures of dicks on toilet walls.
                            Like, I get around, but I suppose there are certain quarters I've been lucky
                            enough to largelyy miss. Maybe these guys are the "national anarchists"?
                            MK
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit http://www.greenleft.org.au
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • ozleft
                            ... internal newsletters, unless they make a real political point, and let s have some political discussion. Which political discussion would that be, Nick?
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >>Enough with the sad titillation to be gained from peeking at
                              internal newsletters, unless they make a real political point, and
                              let's have some political discussion.>>

                              Which political discussion would that be, Nick? Calling Jim Nolan a
                              scab or Peter Garrett scum?

                              Perhaps the problem with this list, which styles itself a discussion
                              forum on material that appears in Green Left Weekly, is that there's
                              not much politics in GLW. It's mainly rather sterile propaganda.

                              When political discussion does threaten to break out here, it's
                              usually drowned very quickly in ignorant abuse. Even the lengthy
                              discussion between Mike Karadjis and others eventually choked on abuse.

                              It reminds me a bit of something I read recently about a small town in
                              Victoria in 1879: "The family have gone to one of the three chapels,
                              the one that accommodates the 'Bible Christians'. The other two are
                              the 'Independents' and the 'Calvinistic Methodists'. The members of
                              each expect to enter heaven, and from there look down at the other
                              two." (Diary of a Welsh Swagman, Joseph Jenkins).

                              You seem to be very down on the libertarians, Nick. Perhaps you should
                              have a look at your own sect's practice.

                              Ed Lewis
                            • Nick Fredman
                              ... I called Peter Garret a preening, monomaniacal rock star, which is possibly abusive, if undoubtably true, but take no responsibility for what anybody else
                              Message 14 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Ed ironically says:

                                >Which political discussion would that be, Nick? Calling Jim Nolan a
                                >scab or Peter Garrett scum?

                                I called Peter Garret a preening, monomaniacal rock star, which is
                                possibly abusive, if undoubtably true, but take no responsibility for
                                what anybody else calls anybody else. I totally agreed with the
                                comments made by the moderator about the unacceptable use of terms
                                like scum and scab on this by various people, including DSP members.
                                However if all you got from Mike's careful and detailed refutation of
                                the long-running lies about the DSP's involvement in the Nuclear
                                Disarmament Party was his offhand use off the word scum, I think you
                                rather missed the point. And if you can't find any politics in Green
                                Left, I really wonder about your powers of comprehension, as the
                                politics therein is presumably why 10 000 people or so read it each
                                week. When you do find some politics in GLW maybe you could tell us
                                what you find disagreeable about it, in a little more detail than
                                dismissing the whole thing as "sterile propaganda", and giving us a
                                very unoriginal parable about churches. Apologies in advance if you
                                feel at all abused.
                                --
                              • br3068
                                I think people could gain from dropping some of the sanctimonious attitude of the list. So what: people call each other names every now and again. In the cases
                                Message 15 of 22 , May 26, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I think people could gain from dropping some of the sanctimonious
                                  attitude of the list. So what: people call each other names every
                                  now and again. In the cases of Nolan and Garrett it is justified.
                                  Debates get heated: get over it. If Ed (aka Steve Painter) hate GL
                                  so much, why does he still hang around?

                                  Ben

                                  --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > >>Enough with the sad titillation to be gained from peeking at
                                  > internal newsletters, unless they make a real political point, and
                                  > let's have some political discussion.>>
                                  >
                                  > Which political discussion would that be, Nick? Calling Jim Nolan a
                                  > scab or Peter Garrett scum?
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps the problem with this list, which styles itself a
                                  discussion
                                  > forum on material that appears in Green Left Weekly, is that
                                  there's
                                  > not much politics in GLW. It's mainly rather sterile propaganda.
                                  >
                                  > When political discussion does threaten to break out here, it's
                                  > usually drowned very quickly in ignorant abuse. Even the lengthy
                                  > discussion between Mike Karadjis and others eventually choked on
                                  abuse.
                                  >
                                  > It reminds me a bit of something I read recently about a small
                                  town in
                                  > Victoria in 1879: "The family have gone to one of the three
                                  chapels,
                                  > the one that accommodates the 'Bible Christians'. The other two are
                                  > the 'Independents' and the 'Calvinistic Methodists'. The members of
                                  > each expect to enter heaven, and from there look down at the other
                                  > two." (Diary of a Welsh Swagman, Joseph Jenkins).
                                  >
                                  > You seem to be very down on the libertarians, Nick. Perhaps you
                                  should
                                  > have a look at your own sect's practice.
                                  >
                                  > Ed Lewis
                                • duroyan fertl
                                  ozleft wrote: The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the war, but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as
                                  Message 16 of 22 , May 27, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    ozleft <ozleft@...> wrote:

                                    "The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the war, but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as well. Only a minority of Liberal voters are opposed, although the number of antiwar Liberals has increased."

                                    "I'm struck forcibly by the fact that no-one on the GLW list has even mentioned today's poll. DSP leadership supporters are usually very quick to draw attention to polls showing increased opposition to the Iraq war, but it seems this poll, which shows the overwhelming correlation between voting Labor and opposing the war, is to be ignored -- because it might sow illusions in Laborism, perhaps."
                                    A bit paranoid, don't you think Bob? Why should the DSP "hide" information that the majority of the population supports the position we have held since before the war began? That's simply ludicrous.
                                     
                                    The correlation is not strictly between labor voters and those opposed to the war. Rather, it's a matter of an increase in the number of labor voters who are consciously opposed to the war.
                                    There is a lot to be welcomed in this fact, but let's not get sidetracked. Here we have an attack on the DSP (and, by implication and insinuation, the Socialist Alliance too) that appears to be deliberately disingenuous.
                                    Bob, you wouldn't be trying to obscure the fact that 100% of the DSP is opposed to the war, and a majority of the Socialist Alliance is too? After all, this is the position that many members of the labor party are moving towards, even much of the leadership. Are you trying to sow disillusion in the DSP? Or ... 
                                     
                                     
                                    And why single out the DSP members on this list for an admonishing over not mentioning every poll that comes out? (There's, what, about half a dozen every day now?) What about the Greens on this list, or the other affilliates to SA; or other laborites such as yourself? Surely the figures are pretty relevant to them?

                                    "The DSP leadership can't cope with this phenomenon, because it doesn't fit their schema, and they're driven to exactly the same device as the right-wing Murdoch newspapers, of holding up an isolated right-winger, called Nolan, as somehow representative of Laborism, despite all
                                    evidence to the contrary, in things like the statements of Labor
                                    leaders against the Iraq war and today's polls."

                                    as

                                    "From a socialist point of view, this DSP leadership sectarianism is monumentally stupid. There is a very substantial polarisation in
                                    Australian society building as the federal elections approach. The
                                    hopes of the Labor-Green left side of Australian society are now
                                    heavily invested in the prospect of the Labor-Green side defeating the Liberals electorally, with the inevitable prospect of a Green balance of power in the Senate."

                                    "The possibility of defeating the Liberals is the central axis of
                                    current Australian politics, and even in a secondary way of world
                                    politics. The election of a Labor government that withdraws Australian
                                    troops from Iraq will be a very major blow to imperialism. Even the
                                    dopiest political observers can see this, and that's driving the
                                    reactionary side of Australian politics off its tree. In this
                                    situation, all the DSP leadership can think to do is grasp at straws,
                                    in this instance Mr Nolan, to try to create an impression that
                                    Laborites in general support the Iraq war."

                                    "The DSP leadership is the only group of people in Australian society
                                    who hold this eccentric view, and the ruthless, reckless and
                                    inaccurate way their prosecute this view tends to cut them off from
                                    the whole left of Australian society, which has other things on its
                                    mind, in particular defeating the Liberals in the elections."



                                    Proletarios de todos los paises y pueblos oprimidos, unios!!!
                                    Venceremos!!!



                                    Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.

                                  • ozleft
                                    ... I haven t followed Garrett s musical career, so I don t know much about that, but hasn t it been a while since he was any sort of rock star? Garrett has
                                    Message 17 of 22 , May 27, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Nick Fredman wrote:

                                      >>I called Peter Garret a preening, monomaniacal rock star>>

                                      I haven't followed Garrett's musical career, so I don't know much
                                      about that, but hasn't it been a while since he was any sort of rock
                                      star? Garrett has been generally okay in speaking out on environmental
                                      questions, and that's more than most musicians do. I agree with him on
                                      some things and not on others, which in my view puts him in the same
                                      category as about 18 million other Australians. I don't understand why
                                      he qualifies as scum in the eyes of some DSP members and supporters,
                                      even given his role in the NDP split.

                                      >>Green Left ... the politics therein is presumably why 10 000 people
                                      or so read it each week.>>

                                      I've seen the boasting about website hits. If GLW really had 10,000
                                      regular readers I doubt that the DSP would be having its worst-ever
                                      financial crisis. Lay off the snake oil. Selling it is one thing,
                                      drinking it yourself is another.

                                      >>giving us a very unoriginal parable about churches.>>

                                      The point is, Nick, there's nothing at all original about narrowness
                                      and intolerance. Defender of the faith Ben Reid is a case in point.

                                      As for Mike Karadjis, I'll defer to his superior knowledge of drawings
                                      on dunny walls.
                                    • lordludd66
                                      Hi Bob, Thanks for the valuable free legal advice - I suppose that is one good thing about the A.L.P. these days - plenty of lawyers. You ll be relieved to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , May 27, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Bob,
                                        Thanks for the valuable free legal advice - I suppose that
                                        is one good thing about the A.L.P. these days - plenty of lawyers.
                                        You'll be relieved to know that I don't own a house (and like most
                                        never will) so your concern about me having to sell up,while
                                        appreciated,is misplaced.
                                        Perhaps if Nolan really is only masqeurading as an A.L.P. member
                                        you should sue HIM (is that possible?) - it's certainly the
                                        impression he gives -

                                        "Regime Change for Saddam

                                        by Jim Nolan

                                        Disclosure: I am a Sydney barrister and labor lawyer who first
                                        joined the ALP in the mid sixties and was active in the anti-Vietnam
                                        movement and anti-Springbok South Africa movement in Brisbane. For
                                        the last fourteen years I've been a barrister appearing mainly for
                                        trade unions."

                                        http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/17/1042520770007.html

                                        What he says is important - the anti-Vietnam,anti-Springbok
                                        campaigns were important - but we are in a different era where left
                                        posturing is no longer enough and the "leftists" of the
                                        60s/70s,having cut themselves a nice comfortable career niche,are
                                        using these "credentials" to back so-called "humanitarian wars"
                                        a.k.a. a new (and particularly brutal) Imperialism.
                                        There's a similar movement in Britain where the leading spokesman
                                        put up by the Blairite New Labour Party for their wars is Peter
                                        Hain - an anti-appartheid "hero".There though they expel anti-war
                                        members - like George Galloway - the A.L.P. might have more
                                        credibility if they were to similarly expel Nolan ( or are they
                                        afraid he might sue?).
                                        I'll leave you to the spat with the D.S.P. and look forward to
                                        reading the piece you get published in The Age refuting Nolan,
                                        Comradely

                                        BiLL
                                        --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > By Bob Gould
                                        >
                                        > Most of the comments on my post of last night are deliberately
                                        > insulting and show up in bold relief the underlying political
                                        outlook
                                        > of the DSP leadership.
                                        >
                                        > Lordludd deliberately insults me by asserting that I'm trying to
                                        get
                                        > the right-winger, Nolan, to sue him. How stupid can you get? I was
                                        > simply trying to help Brother Ludd by pointing out the danger,
                                        both to
                                        > himself and the Green Left list, of recklessly throwing around
                                        > thoughtless rhetoric about scabs, particularly against an
                                        industrial
                                        > lawyer.
                                        >
                                        > In this context, my concern for the interests of the Green Left
                                        list,
                                        > which from time to time I find a useful platform, and even for the
                                        > dopey Lordludd, is genuine.
                                        >
                                        > A leftist of my acquaintance once had to pull up stakes and move
                                        > states to escape a libel writ from a right wing union official who
                                        he
                                        > had rather unwisely called a scab. A rank and file leftist
                                        ironworkers
                                        > union leader in Newcastle, with whom I was acquainted, had to sell
                                        his
                                        > house when he lost a libel case against a right-wing union
                                        official.
                                        >
                                        > In the overheated, politically hysterical, atmosphere generated by
                                        the
                                        > DSP leadership in the DSP ranks these considerations don't seem to
                                        > rate at all. Despite the obvious political disagreements I have
                                        with
                                        > the DSP leadership I'm genuinely shaken by how little attention
                                        they
                                        > seem to pay to these kinds of questions, in pursuit of their
                                        mistaken,
                                        > sectarian political line.
                                        >
                                        > At the very least, the moderator of the list should declare a
                                        > moratorium on language about scabs, applied to living individuals.
                                        I
                                        > have no intention of drawing Mr Nolan's attention to this
                                        craziness on
                                        > the GLW list, but if he's a normal, opinionated pundit, as he
                                        seems to
                                        > be, he's likely to Google his own name from time to time to see
                                        what
                                        > people say about him.
                                        >
                                        > Lordludd, GLParamatta and others are behaving very recklessly
                                        indeed,
                                        > and my purpose in raising the question is to draw attention to how
                                        > reckless this rhetoric is to the other 300-odd participants in
                                        this list.
                                        >
                                        > All concerned should knock off crazy rhetoric about scabs.
                                        >
                                        > My other purpose, obviously, is to raise very sharply the vicious
                                        > sectarianism towards the ranks of the labour movement displayed in
                                        > GLParamatta's header, and the lack of a sense of proportion and
                                        > judgment. The attempt is made, and continued by Lordludd and Simon
                                        > Butler, to associate Laborites in general with the reactionary
                                        views
                                        > of Nolan, in pursuit of the DSP's bankrupt schema about Labor being
                                        > one of the two capitalist parties, ignoring the social location and
                                        > social base of the ALP.
                                        >
                                        > GLParamatta's timing is unfortunate, from his point of view.
                                        Today's
                                        > Sydney Morning Herald polls seems to show a rather substantial
                                        > electoral swing to Labor, and the pollsters, in trying to explain
                                        it,
                                        > associate the swing with Labor's opposition to the Iraq war.
                                        >
                                        > The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the
                                        > war, but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as well. Only a
                                        > minority of Liberal voters are opposed, although the number of
                                        antiwar
                                        > Liberals has increased.
                                        >
                                        > I'm struck forcibly by the fact that no-one on the GLW list has
                                        even
                                        > mentioned today's poll. DSP leadership supporters are usually very
                                        > quick to draw attention to polls showing increased opposition to
                                        the
                                        > Iraq war, but it seems this poll, which shows the overwhelming
                                        > correlation between voting Labor and opposing the war, is to be
                                        > ignored -- because it might sow illusions in Laborism, perhaps.
                                        >
                                        > This poll underlines the class and political division between the
                                        Tory
                                        > right and the Labor-Green left in Australian society.
                                        >
                                        > The DSP leadership can't cope with this phenomenon, because it
                                        doesn't
                                        > fit their schema, and they're driven to exactly the same device as
                                        the
                                        > right-wing Murdoch newspapers, of holding up an isolated right-
                                        winger,
                                        > called Nolan, as somehow representative of Laborism, despite all
                                        > evidence to the contrary, in things like the statements of Labor
                                        > leaders against the Iraq war and today's polls.
                                        >
                                        > Duncan Meerding insults the Laborites who bought Moore's books at
                                        the
                                        > ALP state conference, saying they probably didn't read them. What a
                                        > dope this man is! In my experience as a bookseller everybody who
                                        buys
                                        > Michael Moore reads him, including Laborites, because he's so funny
                                        > and effective.
                                        >
                                        > The ruling classes of the US and Australia are positively
                                        apopleptic
                                        > about Michael Moore, witness P.P. McGuiness's similar assault to
                                        Nolan
                                        > on him this morning in the Sydney Morning Herald. (McGuiness's
                                        attack
                                        > doesn't rate a mention on the Green Left list, but then McGuiness
                                        > can't be as easily fitted into Laborism as Nolan. Incidentally, GLW
                                        > website participants only have the Australian's word for it about
                                        > Nolan's Labor Party membership. Nolan may be trading on past
                                        > associations, and may not even be a current ALP member, but none of
                                        > that's of any interest on the GLW list. Anything goes if you want
                                        to
                                        > kick the Laborites.)
                                        >
                                        > From a socialist point of view, this DSP leadership sectarianism is
                                        > monumentally stupid. There is a very substantial polarisation in
                                        > Australian society building as the federal elections approach. The
                                        > hopes of the Labor-Green left side of Australian society are now
                                        > heavily invested in the prospect of the Labor-Green side defeating
                                        the
                                        > Liberals electorally, with the inevitable prospect of a Green
                                        balance
                                        > of power in the Senate.
                                        >
                                        > The possibility of defeating the Liberals is the central axis of
                                        > current Australian politics, and even in a secondary way of world
                                        > politics. The election of a Labor government that withdraws
                                        Australian
                                        > troops from Iraq will be a very major blow to imperialism. Even the
                                        > dopiest political observers can see this, and that's driving the
                                        > reactionary side of Australian politics off its tree. In this
                                        > situation, all the DSP leadership can think to do is grasp at
                                        straws,
                                        > in this instance Mr Nolan, to try to create an impression that
                                        > Laborites in general support the Iraq war.
                                        >
                                        > The DSP leadership is the only group of people in Australian
                                        society
                                        > who hold this eccentric view, and the ruthless, reckless and
                                        > inaccurate way their prosecute this view tends to cut them off from
                                        > the whole left of Australian society, which has other things on its
                                        > mind, in particular defeating the Liberals in the elections.
                                        >
                                        > If there's a material crisis in the DSP, which is now pretty
                                        public,
                                        > it has everything to do with the DSP leadership's dead-end
                                        sectarian
                                        > political line towards the workers movement and the coming federal
                                        > elections.
                                      • Michael Karadjis
                                        ... Come on Ed, chill out a llittle, that was a reference to some pretty hostile and incoherent scribbblings, what s the big deal about giving it back a
                                        Message 19 of 22 , May 27, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          ozleft" <ozleft@...> wrote:

                                          > As for Mike Karadjis, I'll defer to his superior knowledge of drawings
                                          > on dunny walls.

                                          Come on Ed, chill out a llittle, that was a reference to some pretty hostile
                                          and incoherent scribbblings, what's the big deal about giving it back a
                                          little?

                                          As the author of the word 'scum', I'm not sure what Ed is so worked up
                                          about, it had little to do with the rest of the post, which you don't
                                          mention whether you agree with or not, given you were also a participant at
                                          the time.

                                          Yeh, it wasn't the most political term to use, but hey you were around,
                                          obviously you've changed your views on the SWPs involvement, but I doubt
                                          you've changed your views on Garret's role. Instead of the unfortunate word
                                          'scum', do you think, referring to his actions then, that 'red-baiter', or
                                          more correctly, 'willing tool of Murdoch mass media red-baiting' would be
                                          more appropriate?

                                          The point is, the reference was made to someone who pretty clearly stood
                                          with the enemy camp in a major media red-baiting campaign at that time as
                                          part of destroying his own organisation. I made no personal reference or
                                          insult or abuse to the SP comrades who I was arguing against who had sent
                                          along the usual shopping llist of half a dozen old-time slanders. In fact I
                                          completely agree with the moderator re not using terms of abuse against
                                          others on the list, and unless someone is using pretty hostile and abusive
                                          language towards me, in which case I give it back good, I never use that
                                          that language against others I am arguing against.

                                          We can all go a bit overboard in our reactions, so let's not be too holy
                                          about all that. For example, if Bob had a problem with glparramatta's 'scab'
                                          heading re Nolan, he could have simple replied in pristine comradely
                                          tones, rather than sending a heading "brainless, shameless, moralising
                                          rubbish" and calling lordludd "dopey" etc. I mean, I'm not knocking Bob for
                                          that, I guess that's just how he felt at the time, the point is that the use
                                          of provocative language in overreactions happens and is not the property of
                                          only one group.

                                          BTW, you claim most discussion is "usually drowned very quickly in ignorant
                                          abuse" and you say that "Even the lengthy discussion between Mike Karadjis
                                          and others eventually choked on abuse." For the record, the person I was
                                          debating the longest, John Steppling, quit the liist when the moderator
                                          ended the discussion, and there was no mutual abuse between me and John, in
                                          fact I sent him a note encouraging him to stay on the list, he replied and
                                          thanked me, and we have occasionally maintained a comradely off-line
                                          discussion on the topic, he doesn't abuse me, I don't abuse him, really
                                          simple. Also you followed the month-long Marxmail discussion on that topic,
                                          where I was the only DSPer involved, I think you wiill agree it was a
                                          highly political discussion which did not degenerate into personal abuse
                                          (except one guy who told me I make him puke, and Louis correctly foorced him
                                          to apologise).

                                          On the other hand, if someone wiith a relentless personal hostility towards
                                          me constantly calls me "hack", "slimy", "sleazy", "the left hand of
                                          imperialism", because he disagrees with my opinions, and puts my name up as
                                          a "holocaust revisionist" in a subject heading which can now be found if you
                                          google those words, wiith my name next to Irving's, well, yeh, I get a
                                          liittle cross, so would you.

                                          Anyway, I agree with Nick and strongly disagree with Ben that it would be
                                          good to hear more of your views in discussions on the list,

                                          comradely
                                          MK
                                        • Sol Salbe
                                          ... pretty hostile ... back a ... Dear Michael (and others who drew the same conclusion), As far I can tell as an observer OzLeft is used by both Bob Gould and
                                          Message 20 of 22 , May 28, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Karadjis"
                                            <mkaradjis@t...> wrote:
                                            > ozleft" <ozleft@y...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Come on Ed, chill out a llittle, that was a reference to some
                                            pretty hostile
                                            > and incoherent scribbblings, what's the big deal about giving it
                                            back a
                                            > little?

                                            Dear Michael (and others who drew the same conclusion),

                                            As far I can tell as an observer OzLeft is used by both Bob Gould and
                                            Ed Lewis. That last one didn't have anyone's name on it. So how did
                                            you figure it was Ed? Word anlysis, some stylistic quirk that I can't
                                            tell or some other code?

                                            You may well be right, but you can you telll us how you worked it out?

                                            "Sceptic" Sol
                                          • ozleft
                                            ... and Ed Lewis. That last one didn t have anyone s name on it. So how did you figure it was Ed? Word anlysis, some stylistic quirk that I can t tell or some
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 28, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Sol wrote:

                                              >>As far I can tell as an observer OzLeft is used by both Bob Gould
                                              and Ed Lewis. That last one didn't have anyone's name on it. So how
                                              did you figure it was Ed? Word anlysis, some stylistic quirk that I
                                              can't tell or some other code?>>

                                              You're right Sol. Bob, myself and sometimes one or two others post
                                              from Ozleft. There's no code, just continuity between the posts ...
                                              and Bob's posts are rarely as brief as mine :-).

                                              Sorry I forgot to sign the last one.

                                              Ed
                                            • bairn@iinet.com.au
                                              That wasn t the same glpara that was keen to debate with the fascist? I m with Bob Gould on this one. I was catching up on some of the digests when I saw his
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 29, 2004
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                That wasn't the same glpara that was keen to debate with the fascist?

                                                I'm with Bob Gould on this one. I was catching up on some of the digests
                                                when I saw his and the other posts, read the minutes of the SA conference
                                                and had moved on to the GLW page and read Sue B's article on Craig
                                                Johnston. It was great to read about one of the best trade unionists
                                                avoiding jail

                                                At the end of it there was a report on, the reports in The Age about the
                                                court case. Mind you, no mention given to what the workers on the picket
                                                line at The Age were saying about Craig, no just the managements approved
                                                views, this in the GREEN Left weekly, "...The Age reported that the ALP,
                                                the ACTU and the AMWU national leadership have attacked
                                                Johnston...". There are then quotes from Cameron and from a class enemy,
                                                the CEO of the Australian Industry Group no less.

                                                So what's the point, guilt by association. This is extremely similar to
                                                the point being made about the DSP's raising of issues with the ALP in
                                                Sydney. It's a mantra instead of an analysis.

                                                I have little doubt about the ALP and the hold of reformism on the class;
                                                and yes I agree with Workers Power that the move to the Greens is not a
                                                left ward trend, a minority view within the SA I understand. I will, as I
                                                always have, be putting the ALP 2nd on my card after the SA and will be
                                                recommending that ALP voters do likewise. Mind you the SA's policy of
                                                preferencing the Greens ahead of the ALP doesn't make this an easy win. I
                                                don't just think this is correct position for the SA, I actually think it
                                                would see the primary vote for the SA increase.

                                                I don't have these views because I have the slightest doubt that the ALP
                                                will not, if elected, wage the war on the working class, in a different
                                                manner to the Coalition but with no less ferocity. Rather because I will
                                                welcome the contradictions the illusions of the "workers party" victory,
                                                the ALP could achieve. It would see an increase in militancy where more
                                                workers would feel more confident. Their just demands that "their" party,
                                                "their" government treat them the same as the Coalition treated its class
                                                would reverberate,

                                                The ALP would at best be forced to do nothing to stop workers clawing back
                                                some of the losses, suffered under Howard, thus allowing a real defence
                                                against the bosses attacks. At best they could be forced to remove some of
                                                the most flagrant attacks on workers rights and civil liberties, allowing
                                                the defensive struggles to move to the offensive for an advance of these
                                                rights and liberties.

                                                I disagree with the view on reformism put forward by the SA, exemplified by
                                                a key SA, Nat Exec member Chris Cain, when he says: "We don't see ourselves
                                                as any lunatic left-wing Trots or whatever they call them ... We're just a
                                                little bit left of the so-called Labor Party at the moment because we
                                                consider them to have moved right." That's an attitude to reformism which
                                                calls for a preference to the Greens because it will tell the ALP off. Now
                                                I think I understand where the subject line for this thread came from.

                                                There would be victories, revolutionaries would have more opportunities to
                                                be directly involved with militant workers whilst they were taking
                                                action. There will also be losses but not, in the early days of an ALP
                                                government, losses without a fight. If groups of workers take up the fight
                                                back and there is no organisation capable of broadening those struggles, of
                                                linking those struggles then the class will be in poor state to maintain
                                                its momentum after the ALP has consolidated and implements its strategies
                                                to weaken and fragment workers from each other.

                                                I thought I understood Marxists and reformism, maybe I do or maybe many on
                                                this list do and I'm just suckered by the reformists and their apologists
                                                amongst us, I don't think so.

                                                As I understand them I don't agree with Bob Gould and the other comrades
                                                from ozleft but their arguments certainly have more grasp of the
                                                real-politik and less of the moralising which seems to typify their opponents.

                                                DavidS
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.