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Re: NSW Council election results

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  • ozleft
    Peter Boyle s new class line: proletarian revolution centred on Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutter s Bay, Moore Park, Glebe Point and Pyrmont Point By Bob Gould One of
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 30, 2004
      Peter Boyle's new class line: proletarian revolution centred on
      Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutter's Bay, Moore Park, Glebe Point and Pyrmont
      Point

      By Bob Gould

      One of my closest friends has just been out scrutineering for the
      Labor Party at Villawood, and brought me back an hour ago the updated
      figures progress count for all booths for the councillors' positions
      in the City of Sydney, at the close of counting on Sunday night.

      These figures give some insight into the class forces in play in the
      inner city in the council elections.

      There were 53,026 votes recorded of which 4097 were informal. The
      total formal votes were 48,929. There were six ungrouped candidates,
      who were off the radar, so to speak: Dayley (4), McDermott (12),
      Spanos (37) and Sue Price of the Socialist Alliance (93, or 0.17 of
      the vote).

      Price got 10 votes at the Town Hall, three at Alexandria, one in
      Beaconsfield, none in Chippendale booth one, none in Chippendale
      booth two, none in Darlinghurst booth one, none in Darlinghurst booth
      two, seven in Darlinghurst booth three, none in Erskineville, two in
      Elizabeth Bay, nine in Forest Lodge, two in Glebe booth one, nine in
      Glebe booth 2, six in Glebe booth three, one in Glebe booth four, one
      in Haymarket, none in Millers Point, none in Newtown booth one, 11 in
      Newtown booth two, none in Paddington, none in Pyrmont, three in
      Redfern booth one, three in Redfern booth two, eight in Redfern booth
      three, six in Redfern booth four, none in Rosebery booth one, none in
      Rosebery booth two, none in Rushcutters Bay, none in Surry Hills
      booth one, one Surry Hills booth two, none in Surry Hills booth
      three, three in Surry Hills booth four. Price got two in Ultimo, one
      in Waterloo, none in Wooloomooloo, none in Zetland, no postal votes
      and three pre-poll votes, total 93.

      When you get to the serious forces, Clover Moore got 17,902 (36.6 per
      cent), Labor got 12,113 (24.8 per cent), the Greens got 6804 (13.9
      per cent), the Liberals got 5825 (11.96), Sydney independents got
      1385 (2.8), Matt Laffan 1391 (2.8), Peter Collins 1279 (2.6),
      Democrats 1269 (2.6), Dixie Coulton 815 (1.7).

      There was, in fact, a very distinct class line in these electoral
      results, and the Labor and Green forces are on one side of that class
      and most (although not all) of the Clover Moore vote is on the other
      side of that divide.

      Evidence of that class divide is obvious in even the most cursory
      examination of the geographical voting pattern. Labor beat the Clover
      Moore forces, in most cases overwhelmingly in 10 booths: Beaconsfield
      (a strong blue collar working class area), one Glebe booth (located
      close to the Department of Housing estate), Millers Point (which
      still has a large concentration of public housing), three of the
      Redfern booths (which are in or around Housing Department flats or in
      blue-collar residential areas), the two Rosebery booths (a blue-
      collar residential area), Ultimo and Waterloo (probably the most blue-
      collar residential area in the old South Sydney council).

      There was a second category of booths where Labor and the Greens both
      did very well and where their combined vote beat Clover Moore's vote:
      Sydney Town Hall, the two Chippendale booths, the poorer area of the
      four Darlinghurst booths, Erskineville, the three Glebe booths in the
      south end of Glebe outside the Glebe Estate, Haymarket and Zetland.

      The Greens did very well in Erskineville and the Newtown church
      booth. These booths where Labor and the Greens together outpolled the
      Clover Moore forces are areas where there is still some blue-collar
      housing and where the gentrification is at bottom end, with people
      who work in hospitals, the public service, teaching, etc.

      These areas are inhabited by people who Peter Boyle would describe,
      when he's using theory demagogically, as part of the "labour
      aristocracy".

      The other 13 booths were won by Clover Moore overwhelmingly, and they
      also happen to be the ones that delivered by far the largest chunk of
      the Liberal vote. These booths vote overwhelmingly Liberal in federal
      and state elections.

      These booths are: Darlinghurst one, two and three; Elizabeth Bay,
      Glebe booth four, Paddington, Redfern booth three, Rushcutters Bay,
      Surry Hills one, two, three and four, and Wooloomooloo. Even a
      cursory superimposition of ABS figures on the electoral pattern shows
      that these Clover Moore booths are hotspots of extremely high
      incomes, and ABS figures also show that the Labor-Green majority
      booths are areas of middle incomes, and the Labor-voting booths are
      islands of very low incomes.

      To further demonstrate this point, the two richest areas by far in
      the inner city, Elizabeth Bay and Rushcutters Bay were overwhelmingly
      Clover Moore booths. In Elizabeth Bay, which is an overwhelmingly
      Liberal booth in federal and state elections, Moore got 1336, the
      Liberals got 289, Labor got 306 and the Greens got 251.

      In Rushcutters Bay, Labor got 167, the Greens got 94, the Liberals
      got 188 and Moore got 570. Most voters in Rushcutters Bay and
      Elizabeth Bay don't fall anywhere within Peter Boyle's convoluted,
      artificial construct of a labour aristocracy. Those voters are
      located somewhere in the very high stratosphere, way above any
      notions of labour aristocracies.

      There's little question that class, status and income affected the
      results in the Sydney City elections in a spectacular way.

      The Green vote is by and large drawn from youth and the left-leaning
      section of the new social layers, which incidentally are the section
      of these layers most likely to be in white-collar or professional
      trade unions.

      The Green and Labor vote together fall on one side of a clear class
      divide, and the majority of the Clover Moore vote falls on the other
      side of that class divide. These are the statistical facts about the
      elections in the City of Sydney, and facts are very stubborn things.

      In the last few days, Peter Boyle has suddenly become very
      preoccupied with the issue of developers. That's a very real issue to
      anybody on the left in the inner city. It must be pointed out that
      the number-two on Moore's ticket is a bloke called McInerney, who has
      earned his living for a number of years as a professional consultant
      to developers.

      Now that Moore has achieved the political coup, through energy and
      ingenuity, of being elected mayor of Sydney, with a team of
      supporters behind her, she's now talking about working with
      everybody, and it will be interesting to see how the interplay of
      forces works out. All socialists should be pushing for sensible
      restraints on development, but it's still to be tested what role
      Clover Moore and her associates will play in a lot of those questions.

      The other critical issue will be contracting out council services,
      and Moore quite firmly refused to give me a direct answer on that
      question at the Town Hall meeting. Her political constituency
      contains a lot of people who favour contracting out. That's another
      issue that will have to be fought out in the near future.

      In my view, all politics has an element of class, and the Greens and
      the bulk of the rank and file and middle group of Labor supporters,
      activists and voters fall on one side, and the social forces Clover
      Moore has mobilised in Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutters Bay and the 10
      booths where she got her majority generally fall on the other side of
      that class divide.

      I challenge Peter Boyle, and anyone else who supports his point of
      view, to:

      a) address in detail the demographics reflected in the voting in
      Sydney City.

      b) debate me in the flesh, if he's game, in any arena he chooses.

      GREENS AND LABOR IN MARRICKVILLE AND LEICHHARDT

      There's no question that the Green electoral victory in Marrickville
      and Leichhardt reflected a shift to the left in the population. The
      Greens campaigned hard, and their victory was a result of energetic
      and intelligent campaigning.

      The defeat of the left Labor machine in those two municipalities
      stemmed directly from Labor's political mistakes, particularly their
      rush of blood to the head that caused them to make the anti-
      democratic decision to change from wards of four to wards of three.

      The Labor people of the left in those two areas should reverse their
      course and try, even at this late stage, to make a bloc with the
      Greens, rather than a completely unprincipled bloc with the Liberals.
      For socialists there should be no enemies on the left, particularly
      no permanent enemies.

      Nevertheless, the electoral result in Marrickville was rather
      instructive map of ethnicity and class. The Greens did exceptionally
      well in the northern part of Marrickville, among people I've
      previously described as bottom-end new social layers: nurses,
      teachers, public servants, university workers and youth.

      The Labor stronghold was the southern part of the municipality,
      inhabited by blue-collar workers and recent NESB migrants. Both the
      Labor voters and the Green voters in Marrickville fall on the
      progressive side of any class divide, from which stems the need for a
      realistic united front between Labor and the Greens in Leichhardt and
      Marrickville. Once again: no enemies on the left.

      I'm quite happy to leave to Peter Boyle his un-Marxist and
      unprincipled notion of a class struggle led mainly from Elizabeth Bay
      and Rushcutters Bay. No offence meant to the minority of Green or
      Labor voters or the more progressive Clover Moore voters who live in
      those suburbs. I'm sure they'll understand what I'm getting at,
      because they live there.
    • br3068
      While this analysis of spatial patterns of voting is interesting (as far as it goes), I m not sure what all the point of it is though. Yes Moore got a large
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 30, 2004
        While this analysis of spatial patterns of voting is interesting (as
        far as it goes), I'm not sure what all the point of it is though.

        Yes Moore got a large vote in wealthier areas, but so what? The
        class character of the various political forces is determined by
        their actions. No one disputes that Moore represents middle layers
        and has a bourgeois political program. But so does the ALP and the
        Greens! Yes the former retains a base amongst blue collar and
        migrant workers, but the ALP was and is definitely to the right of
        Moore in terms of its political program, is associated with
        developer's greed and Carr's arrogance etc . That is the real and
        main basis that the left should decide preferences.

        (BTW let's not also make the mistake of completely equating votes in
        localities with the social class of the individual voter: it may
        well be a preponderance of small business people voting Labor in
        Marrickville and some workers for the ALP).

        2. What the data Gould does give suggests is that while Moore's
        support was stronger in the wealthier areas (in part no doubt as the
        Liberals seemed not to run a serious campaign), the vote in less
        wealthy areas was actually split between Moore, the Greens and
        Labor. So Bob is probably right: the layer that is fastest breaking
        with the major parties is tertiary educated and wealthier.

        But so what? On the one hand, it shouldn't faze the left that this
        part of the "aristocracy of labour" is moving more quickly to the
        left than other sections of the class. The reasons for this are
        complicated (quietness of the unions), but it shouldn't worry
        anyone - but the most determined workerist - that the main
        constituency of the left may remain for some time outside of the
        blue collar layers that are depoliticised, divided and absorbed by
        the ALP patronage machine. Tactically, it is far more advantageous
        for the left to relate to any strata of the working class or
        ointermediate layers that is becoming politicised.

        On the other hand, that being said, the vote is actually split
        amongst blue collar workers between Moore, greens and Labor. So a
        layer of blue collar workers (a minority) – which is probably the
        more consciously political, more likely to open to the non-ALP left
        clearly does exist. Again, it is this layer that the left much more
        likely to make gains in.

        If this is "crossing class lines" it is not just the Alliance that
        is doing it, so are the Greens. So are the lefts within the Greens
        (as Ed happily admits). In fact so is just about every activist I
        have talked to/ heard from…

        Except Bob.

        Why? For all his baleful insinuations about how nasty and
        authoritarian the DSP and the ISO are and how all the members are
        zombies etc etc, it is Bob who is the one meekly still follows his
        party's leadership (and the class interests it serves?).

        The machinations of power in the ALP - for all the formal "freedoms"
        its members have - are 100 time worse than the worst excesses of any
        Leninist party. The worst form of how this power operates is how
        activists within inevitably internalise its values.

        Ben Reid



        --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
        wrote:
        > Peter Boyle's new class line: proletarian revolution centred on
        > Elizabeth Bay, Rushcutter's Bay, Moore Park, Glebe Point and
        Pyrmont
        > Point
        >
        > By Bob Gould
        >
        > One of my closest friends has just been out scrutineering for the
        > Labor Party at Villawood, and brought me back an hour ago the
        updated
        > figures progress count for all booths for the councillors'
        positions
        > in the City of Sydney, at the close of counting on Sunday night.
        >
        > These figures give some insight into the class forces in play in
        the
        > inner city in the council elections.
        >
        > There were 53,026 votes recorded of which 4097 were informal. The
        > total formal votes were 48,929. There were six ungrouped
        candidates,
        > who were off the radar, so to speak: Dayley (4), McDermott (12),
        > Spanos (37) and Sue Price of the Socialist Alliance (93, or 0.17
        of
        >
      • Peter Boyle
        ... That certainly isn t how the Greens or their supporters see it. The Greens gave their second preference to Clover Moore. The Greens are campaigning against
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 30, 2004
          Bob Gould wrote:

          > The Green and Labor vote together fall on one side of a clear class
          > divide, and the majority of the Clover Moore vote falls on the other
          > side of that class divide.

          That certainly isn't how the Greens or their supporters see it. The
          Greens gave their second preference to Clover Moore. The Greens are
          campaigning against the NSW ALP for being in the pockets of developers
          (see <www.lee.greens.org.au/campaigns/*donations*/NSWALP.html>).

          I think it would have been preferable if the Clover team had to rely on
          an alliance with the Greens in a Sydney Council administration as this
          would have balanced the more conservative elements of her team. However,
          the Greens' gains in Leichhardt and Marrickville, along with the
          expectations of its thousands of supporters, might serve to help keep
          the Clover administration to its promises.

          This is the real political development here, not Gould's worship of the
          "class-in-itself".

          Peter Boyle
        • ozleft
          DSP leadership drops Marxist analysis in preferencing Clover Moore By Bob Gould Ben Reid adopts a slightly calmer tone than usual towards my recent
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 1, 2004
            DSP leadership drops Marxist analysis in preferencing Clover Moore

            By Bob Gould

            Ben Reid adopts a slightly calmer tone than usual towards my recent
            contributions on the local government elections in NSW, but he can't
            resist the abusive assertion at the end of his piece:

            "For all his baleful insinuations about how nasty and authoritarian
            the DSP and the ISO are and how all the members are zombies etc etc,
            it is Bob who is the one meekly still follows his party's leadership
            (and the class interests it serves?) (sic).

            "The machinations of power in the ALP - for all the formal "freedoms"
            its members have - are 100 times worse than the worst excesses of any
            Leninist party. The worst form of how this power operates is how
            activists within inevitably internalise its values."

            Dr Reid has a real talent for insulting slander. He spelt my name
            right, but everything else in these rather revealing paragraphs is
            wrong.

            I hold a Labor Party ticket and I work for the ALP in elections,
            which is part of the political arrangement if you hold a Labor Party
            ticket. I've spent a large part of my political life fighting against
            right-wing policies of assorted Labor leaderships, right and left
            (while supporting progressive actions of these leaderships), as Dr
            Reid well knows.

            My assorted agitations on socialist issues within and without the
            Labor Party are on the public record for the past 50 years. In
            working for the election of Labor governments I'm like many other
            socialists who choose to conduct their struggles, at the political
            level, partly within the ALP; people such as Martin Kingham, Michelle
            O'Neil, Harry Quick, Carmen Lawrence and many others.

            I'm small potatoes in that company, but I've been doing what I do for
            a very long time, and it doesn't include internalising adaptation to
            Labor leaderships. It's fair to say this also applies to most of the
            6000-7000 people who voted for Carmen Lawrence in last year's ALP
            federal leadership ballot.

            The decision of the DSP and ISO leaderships to pressure the members
            of the Sydney branch of the Socialist Alliance to reverse their
            original decision, and preference Clover Moore over Labor, has a very
            right-wing aspect because more than half the Labor candidates in
            winnable positions on the Labor ticket were left-wingers, and the two
            women have been vocal on the left in the ALP on the two major
            questions of significance in recent times: the Iraq war and refugee
            policy.

            It has just been announced today that the final wash-up in the Sydney
            Council is four Clover Moore candidates, three Labor, one Greens and
            one Liberal. Two of the three Labor councilors, Verity Firth and Tony
            Pooley, are on the left of the ALP. The last elected Clover Moore
            candidate and Tony Pooley beat the second Green for the last two
            positions, and it's not unreasonable to point out that a too-
            uncritical attitude to Clover Moore may have contributed to the
            fourth Moore candidate beating the second Green, which is unfortunate.

            Even on the point that Dr Reid chooses to make primary: his
            proposition that the program of the Clover Moore Community
            Independents was to the left of the Labor program, he's wrong.

            The local Laborites, mainly from the old South Sydney council area,
            are considerably more left wing, on municipal, state and federal
            issues, than Clover Moore's team. In addition to that, internally in
            the ALP, even while it's considerably reduced on the past, there is
            considerable argument and debate on policy.

            The combination of a generally leftist ALP membership in the inner-
            city, and the institutional influence of the trade unions,
            contributes to making the stance of the ALP in the inner city
            considerably more left wing than that of the Clover Moore group.

            The conservative, populist electoral machine that surrounds Clover
            Moore is in no sense a membership organisation, in which anybody
            outside people hand-picked by the charismatic leaders has any input.

            The idea that socialists or left-wingers can have much input into
            Clover Moore's machine is delusional.

            Pressure from the residents, and electoral considerations, will
            possibly keep the Clover Moore councillors honest on matters of
            overdevelopment, but that's about as far as it goes. The problem of
            outsourcing council services is ongoing because of the conservative
            social base of the Moore group, which has no inbuilt input from
            unions, for instance, to exert pressure Clover Moore on the
            outsourcing issue.

            Dr Reid is talking sociological rubbish when he says the Community
            Independents are part of the "labour aristocracy": both the vote, as
            I've demonstrated despite Reid's so-whats, and the team of activists
            around Clover Moore are located, sociologically, well up in the
            stratosphere, above any considerations of "labour aristocracies".

            This fact, and the fact that Dr Reid can repeatedly assert "so what"
            about my careful sociological analysis of elections underlines the
            voodoo, metaphysical, theological function of the Reid-Boyle
            confusionism about "labour aristocracies". Their "labour aristocracy"
            rhetoric only has a convoluted theological objective. They try to
            prove, with little evidence, that the ALP political movement was a
            direct product of their artificial, retrospectively constructed,
            allegedly hegemonic "labour aristocracy" in the 19th century, and
            that this alleged origin is still the major determining factor about
            the ALP.

            This crudification and falsification of Lenin is, for them, a kind of
            voodoo. They're like Christians who've discovered a kind of original
            sin of Laborism. When, however, they are confronted with any serious
            sociological investigation and analysis of current politics, they
            drop this aspect, muttering out of the side of their mouths that, of
            course, the "labour aristocracy" theory only applies to the origins
            of Laborism, and the current sociology of social movements is
            unimportant. All that matters is the "trajectory of movement".

            Dr Reid asserts this in the crudest way possible. For him, in this
            post, who blue collar workers support is unimportant. The motor force
            of social change is the Clover Moore forces down there in Elizabeth
            Bay. He actually says this, indirectly. That approach is a very
            considerable distance from any class-based Marxism.

            Peter Boyle is right on one thing: this kind of question is going to
            come up again, and possibly in other states. The DSP leadership,
            Peter Boyle and Dr Reid have an explicit perspective of permanent
            exposure of Laborism, which is in their cosmology the second party of
            capitalism.

            To that end, they will support almost anyone who isn't a Laborite or
            a Liberal if they can possibly rustle up some half-baked argument for
            doing so.

            Reid and I obviously move in totally different worlds. He says he
            knows no activists who don't loathe the Laborites. Well, I meet a
            wide range of people on the left side of Australian society -- all
            kinds of people. At the moment, possibly a majority of these people
            generally support the Greens as a first preference, although a lot
            support Labor.

            Nevertheless, even the most cursory conversation with anyone on the
            left side of society reveals their main preoccupation at the moment
            is getting rid of the Howard Government. Almost everyone on the left,
            other than the obsessed DSP leadership, takes the view that getting
            rid of Howard involves the exchange of electoral preferences between
            Labor and the Greens, and hopes for an outcome that involves the
            election of a Latham Labor government combined with dramatically
            increased representation for the Greens in the Senate.

            From this very concrete circumstance flows the need for a strategic
            united front around the slogan: "throw out Howard". As well as being
            wrong in principle, preferencing the conservative populist Clover
            Moore cuts sharply across this strategic necessity of ousting Howard.

            Everyone on the left I know, other than the DSP leadership
            obsessives, including a large number of Greens, are enthusiastic and
            encouraged by the vigorous way Latham and the other Laborites have
            stood up to the Howard and media barrage, and asserted that Labor
            would stand by its policy of withdrawing Australian troops from Iraq.
            The only exception to that on the left, that I'm aware of, is the
            extraordinary Peter Boyle, who yapped along at Howard's heels on
            Monday, enthusiastically quoting the Lateline bloke who thought he'd
            discovered a chink in Latham's armour when questioning Labor's
            foreign affairs spokesman, Rudd.

            The main political drama this week has been Latham confronting Howard
            on Iraq and all Boyle can do is join the conservative attacking
            Latham on this question. Some Marxist!

            The DSP leadership is so obsessed with its false construct about
            the "two capitalist parties" that it can't see the wood for the trees
            in labour movement and working-class mass politics.

            The dismal result for the Socialist Alliance candidates in the NSW
            local government elections underlines the total bankruptcy of the DSP
            leadership's false political perspective, which was expressed so
            clearly in the perspectives document adopted by the last DSP
            conference. The DSP leadership has a perspective of building, in the
            medium term, an alternative electoral organisation to labour and the
            Greens.

            Despite the crisis of leadership in the labour movement -- the ALP-
            trade-union continuum -- and in the major leftist electoral formation
            in Australian society, the Green electoral party, building an
            alternative electoral formation in the way the DSP leadership, Boyle
            and Reid sketch out is obviously impossible in the short or medium
            term.

            Despite all the spin Boyle and Reid try to put on political events,
            the crisis of leadership for the foreseeable future will proceed
            through political differentiation within Laborism and within the
            Greens. Marxists with any kind of realism are forced by the weight of
            these objective circumstances to have an orientation to these two
            mass formations.

            It's from this set of objective circumstances that the united front
            slogan necessarily flows. Even small groups of Marxists who choose to
            orient themselves to these two mass currents, without adapting to the
            weaknesses of their leaderships, have the prospect of getting a mass
            audience.

            Sectarian Marxists who spend all their time abusing these mass
            formations can't see the wood for the trees, and condemn themselves
            to isolation.

            Reid also makes the obviously false proposition that the DSP is
            infinitely more democratic than the creaking mass Social Democracy.
            If you believe that, you believe in fairies.

            The Zinovievist structure of the DSP has produced the situation that
            several DSP leaders say privately they disagree with preferencing
            Moore but they don't open their mouths publicly on the question,
            either on the GLW discussion list or in the Socialist Alliance
            discussion.

            People rarely get booted out of the ALP for standing up doggedly
            against leaders on political questions (although they sometimes do
            get thrown out) but it's clearly the case that those in the DSP who
            disagree with preferencing Clover Moore prefer to shut up rather than
            test the discipline of the DSP about any sort of public disagreement.

            I repeat my challenge to Boyle, Dr Reid, or anyone else from the DSP:
            why not have a public debate on this question of preferencing Moore
            and the associated question of strategy for socialists in the coming
            federal elections? I'm willing to debate Peter Boyle and Dr Reid on
            these matters in any forum that they choose.

            PS. I'm waiting with bated breath for a serious analysis from Dr
            Reid, who one presumes knows something about sociology, and Peter
            Boyle, of what actually happened in the NSW local government
            elections. What social forces voted for which parties, and
            particularly an analysis of the vote of the Socialist Alliance.
          • br3068
            Bob, 1. There has been public debate on this list. 2. There has been reasonable level of sociological discussion about the social bases of Moore and the ALP.
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 1, 2004
              Bob,

              1. There has been public debate on this list.
              2. There has been reasonable level of "sociological" discussion
              about the social bases of Moore and the ALP.
              4. Your argument equating Marxism with the position that because
              a "large portion of blue collar workers still support labor so
              should we" is absurd. No one is disputing your numbers: we just
              disagree with where the tactical emphasis of socialist should be.
              3. Your laughable defence of the ALP as super democratic in
              comprarison to the DSP clearly contradicts your earlier assertion
              that you are just a small player fighting the bureacracy in a big
              soup: such assertion are hyper-internalisations of the fake
              democracy of the ALP.
              They speak volumes about the basis of so much of your ramblings
              about "Leninism" that stem from the pre 1914 model of social
              democracy. Honestly just look at the way ALP decisions get rammed
              down the throat of rank and file members!

              Give us a break Bob

              Ben Reid

              (BTW I wonder what Dr Karl Marx would have made of your idiotic
              baiting of me?)


              --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
              wrote:
              > DSP leadership drops Marxist analysis in preferencing Clover Moore
              >
              > By Bob Gould
              >
              > Ben Reid adopts a slightly calmer tone than usual towards my
              recent
              > contributions on the local government elections in NSW, but he
              can't
              > resist the abusive assertion at the end of his piece:
              >
              > "For all his baleful insinuations about how nasty and
              authoritarian
              > the DSP and the ISO are and how all the members are zombies etc
              etc,
              > it is Bob who is the one meekly still follows his party's
              leadership
              > (and the class interests it serves?) (sic).
              >
              > "The machinations of power in the ALP - for all the
              formal "freedoms"
              > its members have - are 100 times worse than the worst excesses of
              any
              > Leninist party. The worst form of how this power operates is how
              > activists within inevitably internalise its values."
              >
              >
            • nobbytob
              ... wrote: [..] ... bob, the builder, or fabricator of lies... you totally get it upside down: we always had almost anonymously decided to put clover moore s
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
                wrote:
                [..]
                > The decision of the DSP and ISO leaderships to pressure the members
                > of the Sydney branch of the Socialist Alliance to reverse their
                > original decision, and preference Clover Moore over Labor [..]

                bob, the builder, or fabricator of lies... you totally get it upside
                down: we always had almost anonymously decided to put clover moore's
                independents ahead of the forced-almagamations-and-other-forced-
                agendas-NSW-ALP. noone pressured us to reverse... yeah what? quite
                the opposite, i got dragged into discussions about rethinking our
                crystal-clear decision to de-preference the NSW ALP machine, which by
                the way, preferenced all conservatives except the liberal (who
                preferenced the ALP, ha!). the leichhardt ALP directly preferenced
                the liberals. doesn't that speak VOLUMES, Bob??? they rightly got
                punished, ie their former voters must have preferred clover moore,
                too, don't you think so, bob?

                your whole "argumentation" is based on these 100% wrong "facts".
                it's really useless to get further bothered by this... rubbish!

                in socialism, Nobby (SA Sydney Central branch committee).
              • ozleft
                By Bob Gould Nobby Tobby accuses me of being a fabricator of lies . Wow. I don t much like being accused of lying by someone who shelters behind a pseudonym
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                  By Bob Gould

                  Nobby Tobby accuses me of being a "fabricator of lies". Wow. I don't
                  much like being accused of lying by someone who shelters behind a
                  pseudonym but then half identifies himself as a member of the Sydney
                  branch executive committee of the Socialist Alliance.

                  As a matter of broad political policy, I don't lie about political
                  events and matters of fact, or anything else for that matter. I
                  sometimes get things wrong, but I don't lie. Nobby Tobby's weird,
                  unpleasant and convoluted post confirms me in my view that I didn't
                  get anything wrong about the sequence of events in the Sydney
                  Socialist Alliance branch.

                  In his very strange post, Nobby Tobby says a decision had been
                  made "anonymously" to preference Clover Moore over the Laborites. It
                  must have been very "anonymous", because my informants told me there
                  was a meeting of the Sydney branch of the Alliance at which, in
                  particular, two members of the ISO spoke strongly in favour of
                  preferencing Labor over Clover Moore and that the understanding at
                  the end of that meeting was that preferencing Labor was the position
                  of the Sydney branch of the Alliance.

                  My further understanding is that there was then a caucus of the ISO,
                  at which the ISO leaders persuaded a majority to support preferencing
                  Clover Moore. After that, one of the ISO people who originally
                  support preferencing Labor, but not both, changed their position.

                  Another meeting of the Sydney branch of the Alliance was then held,
                  which decided to preference Clover Moore, with the ISO member who
                  still favoured preferencing Labor, dissenting.

                  The story gets even more complicated and obscure in this way: at the
                  relatively successful antiwar rally two weeks ago, several leading
                  members of the DSP said to me in private conversation that they
                  opposed the decision to preference Moore.

                  Even Peter Boyle, in discussion, said he had initially favoured
                  preferencing Labor but the trajectory of movement now persuaded him
                  the correct decision was to preference Moore.

                  Nobby Tobby now says it was all unanimous (or "anonymous") all
                  through, and he accuses me, in this spirit, of being a "fabricator of
                  lies".

                  Brother Nobby Tobby seems to be a pretty nasty piece of work,
                  throwing around accusations of fabrication and lying far too easily.
                  If he believes I got it wrong, the obvious way to make his case is to
                  give a frank and honest account of the sequence of events and the
                  alternative lines of argument in the Alliance, the DSP and the ISO.

                  Obviously, Zinovievist organisational arrangements don't allow him to
                  engage in a frank discussion of the events, so he falls back on
                  crude, offensive and inaccurate accusations that I'm lying. If I've
                  got it so wrong, tell us the actual sequence of events that supports
                  your argument, Nobby Tobby.
                • Ambrose Andrews
                  ... So how is sheltering behind a pseudonym relevant? If you re not planning to sue your accusor, or engage in a duel at dawn, then it doesn t matter who it
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                    ozleft wrote:

                    >By Bob Gould
                    >
                    >Nobby Tobby accuses me of being a "fabricator of lies". Wow. I don't
                    >much like being accused of lying by someone who shelters behind a
                    >pseudonym but then half identifies himself as a member of the Sydney
                    >branch executive committee of the Socialist Alliance.
                    >
                    >
                    So how is 'sheltering behind a pseudonym' relevant? If you're not
                    planning to sue your accusor, or engage in a duel at dawn, then it
                    doesn't matter who it is, as long as its a consistent identity, which it
                    is.

                    You clearly do not enjoy being called a 'fabricator of lies'. Would it
                    be more correct to say that you are not averse to making something up,
                    if you don't know the real story?

                    >Obviously, Zinovievist organisational arrangements don't allow him to
                    >engage in a frank discussion of the events, so he falls back on
                    >crude, offensive and inaccurate accusations that I'm lying. If I've
                    >got it so wrong, tell us the actual sequence of events that supports
                    >your argument, Nobby Tobby.
                    >
                    >

                    'If i've got it wrong'.... also known as 'if I've just *made something
                    up*, for purposes of provocation, then the onus is on you to correct
                    me,' (but calling me a liar is out of line).

                    I can make whatever outlandish statements I like on the basis of nothing
                    but my own deeply held prejudices, and its not a lie, its an 'educated'
                    guess... And its their fault anyway for not giving me all the details
                    of their internal discussions (can't imagine why...).

                    -AA.


                    --
                    Ambrose Andrews
                    LPO Box 8274 ANU Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
                    http://www.vrvl.net/~ambrose/
                    +61-415544621
                    CE38 8B79 C0A7 DF4A 4F54 E352 2647 19A1 DB3B F823
                  • ozleft
                    By Ed Lewis ... nothing but my own deeply held prejudices, and its not a lie, its an educated guess... And its their fault anyway for not giving me all the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                      By Ed Lewis

                      Ambrose Andrews wrote:

                      >>I can make whatever outlandish statements I like on the basis of
                      nothing but my own deeply held prejudices, and its not a lie, its
                      an 'educated' guess... And its their fault anyway for not giving me
                      all the details of their internal discussions (can't imagine
                      why...).>>

                      The problem, for you Ambrose, is that Bob Gould's statements don't
                      appear to be outlandish at all. In fact, his intelligence sources
                      seem to be pretty good, including leading members of the DSP.

                      There's no need for Mr Tobby, Peter Boyle or others to give "all the
                      details", since they're pretty much out in the open in an
                      organisation like the Socialist Alliance, despite Zinovievist
                      attempts to keep it all under wraps.

                      A question for Mr Tobby: how can a contested decision be "anonymous"
                      (presumably you mean unanimous)?
                    • Kim B
                      Bob, Perhaps it time you got of your high horse and stop obsessing about the DSP and Socialist Alliance. Firstly, Nobby is his actual name - it is diminutive
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004

                        Bob,

                        Perhaps it time you got of your high horse and stop obsessing about the DSP and Socialist Alliance.

                        Firstly, Nobby is his actual name - it is diminutive of his actual name and yes it the name everyone knows him by in both the DSP and Socialist Alliance but even if it wasn't so what? (I understand Ed Lewis is a non de plume for Stever Painter - if I am wrong then apologies to Steve and Ed,  but if it so what, who cares really, just as so what if someone wants to use a psuedonym when challenge Bob's version of the world). 

                        Secondly, English is not Nobby's first language (and like many people who come from a NESB back ground, no matter how good their english is, they still sometimes get words mixed up). I am guessing he meant to say unanimously rather then anonymously.

                        Thirdly, perhaps you should remember the old adage that "people in glass houses should not throw stones". You seem to delight in casting around names, half truths, unsubstantiated allegations and suppositions (in my previous life as an academic, if any of my students did this in an essay, I would have failed them outright!!!) but should anyone challenge you then suddenly you�re the wounded one. 

                        If anyone is obsessed about an organisation, Bob it is you. You are obsessed about the DSP (and now by default the Socialist Alliance) and your obsessiveness is leading to you to come up with bizarre conspiracy theories to fit your agenda. According to a previous post, supposedly DSP and ISO leaderships pressured the comrades in the SA central branch into preferencing Clover Moore over Labor.

                        Now if the ISO had a caucus of their own comrades to decide what position they wanted to take into the meeting, well then that is entirely their right. However, this does not mean that they somehow pressured non-aligned comrades into voting for Clover Moore, all it means is that they simply put their position up for discussion in the branch meeting, where it would have been discussed and then democratically voted on.

                        I also find it the height of pure arrogance that you feel that some how you can place demands on both the DSP and the SA about our internal discussion and somehow we should all jump to attention and do what you demand.   I have no problem with us discussing you theory about zinovisim and other such stuff but to demand that a SA branch lay out its inner workings regarding a discussion which took place democratically in a branch meeting and which was democratically voted on its beyond the pale.

                        You demand that a public debate take place about a democratic discussion and vote in a particular branch, but Bob, I am yet to see or hear you make the same demands about your own party, the ALP. I am yet to see you demand that the ALP and its membership have a public debate on their rotten sectarian and opportunist position to preference the Liberals in Leichhardt

                        Now, perhaps when you jump up and down about numerous betrayals of class by your supposed working class party, the ALP, in the same manner you jump and down about anything the SA or DSP does that does not fit with you little schemas, then perhaps members of the DSP and SA might feel compelled to answer your every demand, but until that happens, why the hell should we?

                        The long and short of it, however, Bob, is I do not ever recall voting in a DSP meeting or a SA meeting on a motion that says we have to either run everything we do past you or that we are ulitmately answerable to you. Until we do, I feel absolutely under no obligation to answer to you, as I am sure is the case with many of our other members of the DSP or the SA.

                        Secondly, the reason, why most comrades can not be bothered having a debate with you has nothing to do with supposed authoritarianism, its because they are either to busy and judge that they have better things to do with their time and/or just can�t plain be bothered answering windbaggery every two minutes. 

                        I could say more, but I have already wasted 20 minutes of my time which I will never get back but Bob, humility is a great thing and perhaps you should actually learn some occassionally and accept that you are not god, you are not always right and that we all do not have to answer to you.

                        Kim


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                      • kieran latty
                        To start with, i am a bit pissed off at the nature of this exchange. As Bob often does, he has taken a few anecdotes and extrapolated way too far. And as
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                          To start with, i am a bit pissed off at the nature of
                          this exchange.

                          As Bob often does, he has taken a few anecdotes and
                          extrapolated way too far.

                          And as usual, certain people reply to what I see as
                          Bob's timeless application of somewhat sound theory (i
                          obviosly disagree with much, but not all, of what he
                          say;s) with equally timeless and sectarian
                          denunciations of labor.

                          Am I wrong in thinking no one is really engaging with
                          the theoretical questions at hand ?

                          First to clear up a few facts.

                          I was initially against the preferencing of Moore over
                          Lees.

                          The reasons for this initial position was based on our
                          future audience. People who vote Labor or who are in
                          the party are more likely to end up in the Socialist
                          Alliance than those in Moore's camp.

                          This still, in my mind, was a very good reason for
                          considering the preference in Lees.

                          On the other hand, it could be argued that the key
                          campaigns we were involved in had better chance of
                          getting a reception under a Moore mayoralship.

                          It could also be argued that the ALP needed to be
                          punished for its recent shenanigans.

                          Furthermore, whilst Moore was set to get a better vote
                          in richer areas, there was a degree of anecdotal
                          evidence that she would pick up significant votes in
                          depressed areas on a left wing basis.

                          For example, while leafleting in redfern a group of
                          older pensioners in the large public housing estates
                          all said that they were voting for Moore because she
                          listened to them and because she would defend public
                          housing from the developers.

                          Now, the ALP did do better than Moore in these areas,
                          but even in south redfern and Waterloo Moore got alot
                          of votes- near or over 35% of the primary vote (more
                          than the 25% that Bob thought she would get).

                          Clearly, the decision was not an easy one to make.
                          Those who seem to fall too easily on one side seem to
                          me to be not engaging with the issues.

                          Anyway, back to the facts.

                          The first meeting of the Alliance to decide on the
                          topic voted overwhelmingly to preference Moore.

                          I argued against this proposal, arguing for an SA,
                          Greens, then ALP preference run.

                          The meeting did, however, empower the branch executive
                          to be able to revisit the question on the grounds of
                          new evidence- for example, if we found out that Moore
                          had some anti-union plan up her sleeve.

                          After the meeting, i discussed the issue with a number
                          of people, including in the DSP.

                          At this stage, I was still very hard in favour of the
                          ALP ocer Moore.

                          By the time of the next executive meeting, some people
                          had swung closer to my position.

                          We discussed the issues, amd decided to get more
                          evidence about Moore. To this end Susan Price
                          contacted Moore and the ASU to discuss the issues.

                          As the issue was now quite a contentious one, and as a
                          member of the ISO, I raised this issue with other
                          members of the Newtown branch of the ISO, to try and
                          get a better feel for the issue. I have also talked to
                          people in the ALP and even Jack Mundey about the issue
                          (who is hard in favour of Moore.)

                          At that meeting of the ISO, there was a strong view in
                          favour of preferencing Moore over the ALP.

                          I am a comitted member of the ISO, and respect other
                          members ideas and views. By the end of that meeting, i
                          still thought we needed better discussion, and was not
                          clear either way- however, i was not going to advocate
                          a position which was contrary to the ISO caucus.

                          At the next Alliance meeting, we discussed the issue,
                          where most people advocated preferencing Moore.

                          This was on the basis of evidence that Moore had
                          supported unions against Carr's attack on workers
                          compensation, was against contracting out services and
                          supported the last teachers pay claim.

                          One ISO member, who was not at the previouse ISO
                          meeting, strongly opposed the majority decision.

                          I abstained, as i felt the ISO needed to have a better
                          discussion of the issue before we made a formal
                          decision.

                          I stand by the Alliance's decision. Some time down the
                          track we may think it was the wrong thing to do,
                          maybey not- but we were operating on a limited time
                          frame and had to make a decision.

                          I do think we need to discuss this issue further, but
                          to be honest, the current debate has been
                          characterised by too much misinformation, too many
                          attempts to create scandals and too much defenciveness
                          and fire.

                          So Bob, argue your case, but give up on trying to look
                          for "Zinoviest conspiracies"

                          And everyone else, give up the timeless "denounce the
                          ALP" and engage with the issues.

                          Lastly, to put my case on class- I think it is still
                          right to see the ALP as a capitalist workers party-

                          By this, I mean that it attempts to make workers lives
                          a little better under capitalism, and to this end
                          supports capitalism.

                          But it is also a party of the class, in that most
                          workers still vote ALP.

                          If we want to build a party of socialist workers, the
                          socialists (i.e. us) need to be in some way with those
                          workers in order to relate to them.

                          Not tailing them, but also not a million miles away
                          from them either.

                          So when the workers cheer Latham's victory, we cheer
                          to, but we also need to criticise the ALP and point to
                          a better alternative.

                          Now, with this theory, we should be looking at how
                          workers, particularily the most advanced sections,
                          view Moore's victory.

                          If they think it is a step backwards, then maybe we
                          did do the wrong thing.

                          The proof will really be in the pudding though.

                          After a full term of Moore's mayoralship, lets see
                          what she has done and how those same workers view her.

                          Comradely, Kieran Latty.






































































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                        • kieran latty
                          Have a read of this on how to relate to the mainstream left. Comment Don t duck the politics Alex Callinicos draws lessons from the far left s performance in
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                            Have a read of this on how to relate to the mainstream
                            left.

                            Comment

                            Don't duck the politics

                            Alex Callinicos draws lessons from the far left's
                            performance in France's regional elections

                            THE HEADLINE news in France's regional elections was
                            that there was a big swing away from the ruling right
                            to the parties of the "plural left"-the Socialists,
                            Communists, and Greens. But, for the revolutionary
                            left, the story was a different one.

                            The coalition of Lutte Ouvriere (LO) and the Ligue
                            Communiste Revolutionnaire (LCR) won 4.95 percent of
                            the vote in the first round of the elections the
                            weekend before last. This was too low a vote for the
                            slate to go into the second round last Sunday. It's
                            important to get this in proportion. As a share of the
                            national vote, 5 percent isn't bad for open
                            revolutionaries.

                            But two years ago, in the first round of the last
                            presidential elections, the far left candidates won 10
                            percent. Arlette Laguiller of LO and Olivier
                            Besancenot of the LCR each won a higher share of the
                            vote than the candidate of the Communist Party (PCF).

                            This was a historic result given how the PCF has
                            dominated the organised working class in France since
                            the 1930s. This time, however, the PCF won 7.6 percent
                            of the vote. Yet France last May and June was swept by
                            a massive strike wave against the government's attack
                            on pensions. LCR and LO militants played a leading
                            role in the strikes.

                            The reformist left seems to be benefiting from popular
                            bitterness against the right. Of course, parliamentary
                            elections aren't revolutionaries' natural terrain.
                            Activists can lead mass movements but find themselves
                            cut down to size on polling day.

                            Moreover, in April 2002 the official left were in
                            government, implementing neo-liberal policies. The far
                            left-and the Nazi National Front-were able to give a
                            voice to the resulting disillusionment. But, once out
                            of office, the Socialist Party and the PCF have been
                            able to rebuild a degree of credibility. There is an
                            important lesson here.

                            LO and, to a lesser extent, the LCR tend to portray
                            the official left as no different from the right. They
                            did not call on their voters to switch to the
                            Socialists and Communists in the second round of the
                            elections. This stance reflects a failure to recognise
                            the enduring hold of reformism on the workers'
                            movement.

                            Even a party as corrupt and discredited as the French
                            Socialists can, by tacking left rhetorically, act as a
                            vehicle for working class discontent. By putting the
                            parties of the plural left in the same bag as the
                            ruling right, LO and the LCR may have isolated
                            themselves from voters traditionally loyal to the
                            Communists or Socialists. Moreover, the far left
                            campaign focused almost exclusively on economic issues
                            and more particularly the high level of unemployment.
                            Of course, unemployment is hugely important, but
                            revolutionary candidates have to address political
                            questions as well.

                            Opposition to corporate globalisation, imperialism,
                            and war brought huge numbers of young people to the
                            anti-capitalist festival at Larzac last August and the
                            European Social Forum in Paris in November. There are
                            also less positive issues.

                            President Jacques Chirac and his prime minister,
                            Jean-Pierre Raffarin, drove through, with the support
                            of the plural left, the notorious law banning Muslim
                            young women from wearing headscarves in state schools.
                            Seethes Scandalously, LO has supported expelling
                            Muslim school students for wearing headscarves. The
                            LCR is split.

                            Chirac has used the issue to divide the far left and
                            push them onto the defensive. As a result, they have
                            cut themselves off from the largest Muslim population
                            in Europe, which seethes with anger over official
                            racism and the "war on terrorism".

                            I don't make these criticisms with any enthusiasm, for
                            two reasons. First, some of them are also being made
                            by a right wing minority within the LCR. They oppose
                            building a revolutionary alternative to the official
                            left. Instead of a slate with LO, this minority wanted
                            to cosy up with fragments of the reformist parties.

                            Even before the first round had taken place, they
                            started a media campaign calling on the LCR to support
                            the plural left in the second round. There is a real
                            danger that the Ligue will now implode into
                            faction-fighting. Secondly, I can't avoid a feeling of
                            "There but for the grace of god go us." In June
                            Respect will face its own great test in the European
                            and Greater London elections.

                            But to succeed we need to learn from others'
                            successes-and failures. The main morals I draw from
                            the French regional elections are not to underestimate
                            reformism and not to duck the great political
                            questions of the day.

                            * Alex Callinicos is the author of The New Mandarins
                            of American Power (£13.99) and The Revolutionary Ideas
                            of Karl Marx





































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                          • ozleft
                            By Ed Lewis Kim Bullimore may be correct -- or not -- about my name. She is correct that Ed Lewis is a pseudonym. I use a pseudonym because I have a job in the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                              By Ed Lewis

                              Kim Bullimore may be correct -- or not -- about my name. She is
                              correct that Ed Lewis is a pseudonym.

                              I use a pseudonym because I have a job in the private sector. I'd
                              prefer that my real name not be picked up by my employer, or possible
                              future employers, in a Google search. This may not be such a problem
                              for people working in universities or the public service, but I don't
                              work there.

                              Who I am is no mystery to many members of this list, nor is it
                              intended to be.

                              This is not the first time I've been outed on this list. As far as I
                              can remember, no members of the DSP have been treated in this way.
                              Could that be because non-DSP participants in this list are a bit
                              more principled, sensible and respectful about their methods of
                              argument?

                              I'd appreciate it if you and others would respect my right to use a
                              pseudonym, Kim.
                            • Gould's Book Arcade
                              Thanks Kieran, for clearing the air a bit, by attempting to give a more or less comprehensive account of the sequence of events in the Sydney Branch of the
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                                Thanks Kieran, for clearing the air a bit, by attempting to give a more or
                                less comprehensive account of the sequence of events in the Sydney Branch of
                                the Socialist Alliance. I accept your account of events, and will correct
                                any future comment I make on this issue accordingly, using your account of
                                the events as the definitive one in the absence of anyone else's account of
                                the events being as complete and comprehensive as your own. Quite obviously
                                Nobby's account is completely incorrect, by way of omission.

                                I'd still make the following couple of points. Jack Mundey is a courageous
                                fighter on pretty well all class questions and also on many environmental
                                matters. His opinions, however, on such matters as preferencing Moore,
                                however, shouldn't be taken as the last word. Over a very long period of
                                time, Jack has had a very soft spot for Clover Moore, based on common
                                environmental interests, and he doesn't give as much weight as I would, to
                                the very concrete fact that she kept the Greiner Government in power for a
                                number of years with her vote. On the question of outsourcing, Moore has
                                refused to make any direct statement against outsourcing. You say that
                                someone consulted the ASU, but you didn't tell us what response they got
                                from the ASU (MEU). All officials I have spoken to from the ASU (MEU) were
                                strongly in favor of preferencing Lee over Moore, because of Moore's refusal
                                to be explicit about the outsourcing issue.

                                When I spoke to DSP members and leaders at the antiwar demonstration two
                                weeks ago, they were very anxious to point the bone at the ISO as the source
                                of preferencing Clover Moore, and several significant DSPers said to me and
                                others privately that they were opposed to preferencing Moore over Lee,
                                which is why I raise the question of what I call Zinovievism. There is
                                obviously, from your account of events, argument in both the DSP and the ISO
                                on the question. But both groups are obviously bound, in reality, in the
                                Socialist Alliance by the decision made by the leadership of the groups.
                                This gives the decision to preference Clover Moore unstoppable weight inside
                                the Socialist Alliance once the leadership of each group has pronounced in
                                favor. This situation seems to me an almost classic example of Zinovievist
                                arrangements in small socialist groups.


                                Gould's Book Arcade
                                32 King St, Newtown, NSW
                                Ph: 9519-8947
                                Fax: 9550-5924
                                Email: bob@...
                                Web: www.gouldsbooks.com.au
                              • Ambrose Andrews
                                ... Thats quite reasonable. Under most circumstances, I am not in favour of outing list members. (including current circumstances). It is an issue of
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 4, 2004
                                  ozleft [Ed Lewis] wrote:

                                  >I use a pseudonym because I have a job in the private sector. I'd
                                  >prefer that my real name not be picked up by my employer, or possible
                                  >future employers, in a Google search. This may not be such a problem
                                  >for people working in universities or the public service, but I don't
                                  >work there.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Thats quite reasonable. Under most circumstances, I am not in favour of
                                  'outing' list members. (including current circumstances). It is an
                                  issue of democratic rights, as Ed has pointed out. It's also an issue
                                  of a mode of discussion. If someone on the list exhibits lunacy in their
                                  arguments, then that will become obvious to list members over a period
                                  of time, whether or not the person in question has a prior history of
                                  lunacy in another context.

                                  It also tends to distract from the actual debate. Bob (why am i always
                                  going on about Bob?) can hardly resist putting a little potted bio, or
                                  speculative comment about a list contributor before addressing their
                                  comments, such as his odd characterisation of Carl Kenner as a 'DSP
                                  supporter' on an occasion when it suited him. I mean it's not a big
                                  deal, and its a matter of style, but it can be used to muddy the waters.

                                  >This is not the first time I've been outed on this list. As far as I
                                  >can remember, no members of the DSP have been treated in this way.
                                  >Could that be because non-DSP participants in this list are a bit
                                  >more principled, sensible and respectful about their methods of
                                  >argument?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  I think this is a strange argument.

                                  Bob Gould in his inimitable fashion, 'outed' Chris Kerr as being Peter
                                  Boyle. The twist in that instance is that it wasn't technically
                                  'outing' because it wasn't correct... it wasn't true. It was one of
                                  Bob's ahhh... educated stabs in the dark.

                                  In my view this 'principled, sensible and respectful' behaviour from a
                                  non-DSP member doesn't accord with your musings.

                                  Blanket characterisations of DSP members and non-DSP members as the two
                                  fundamental categories of matter are unlikely to hold up against reality.

                                  But yes, I agree with Ed apart from this little twist at the end.

                                  -AA.

                                  --
                                  Ambrose Andrews
                                  LPO Box 8274 ANU Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
                                  http://www.vrvl.net/~ambrose/
                                  +61-415544621
                                  CE38 8B79 C0A7 DF4A 4F54 E352 2647 19A1 DB3B F823
                                • ozleft
                                  By Bob Gould ... Peter Boyle. The twist in that instance is that it wasn t technically outing because it wasn t correct... it wasn t true. It was one of
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 5, 2004
                                    By Bob Gould

                                    Ambrose Andrews wrote:

                                    >>Bob Gould in his inimitable fashion, 'outed' Chris Kerr as being
                                    Peter Boyle. The twist in that instance is that it wasn't
                                    technically 'outing' because it wasn't correct... it wasn't true. It
                                    was one of Bob's ahhh... educated stabs in the dark.>>

                                    Ambrose Andrews alleges that I outed Chris Kerr on this list. As
                                    comrade Ambrose ought to know, that's just not true. I've never outed
                                    anyone on any list.

                                    I did ask some pointed questions about whether Dennis Berrell and
                                    Michael Berrell were the same person, but I gathered that one of
                                    those identities was the man's real name. Dennis Michael Berrell
                                    clarified that to my satisfaction. It's hardly outing anyone to try
                                    to keep track of their real name or dual personalities.

                                    I didn't out Chris Kerr either. I genuinely thought, on the basis of
                                    stylistic similarities in the rather lame satire used by Kerrvert and
                                    Peter Boyle that Kerrvert was a pseudonym for Peter Boyle.

                                    As a result of this confusion on my part, one of Chris Kerr's fellow
                                    DSP members outed him, and I can hardly be blamed for that.

                                    I've never outed anyone, I've just commented wryly a few times on the
                                    barbed way people hiding behind pseudonyms have put the boot into me,
                                    which is a reasonable response.

                                    I hope Ambrose Andrews will withdraw the claim that I outed Chris
                                    Kerr.
                                  • nobbytob
                                    ... my apologies, bob, i didn t know that you have that bad sources of information, resp. that lack of ability to put your pieces together. so liar was a
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 5, 2004
                                      --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "ozleft" <ozleft@y...>
                                      wrote:

                                      > Nobby Tobby accuses me of being a "fabricator of lies". Wow.
                                      > I don't much like being accused of lying by someone who shelters
                                      > behind a pseudonym but then half identifies himself as a member
                                      > of the Sydney branch executive committee of the Socialist Alliance.

                                      my apologies, bob, i didn't know that you have that bad sources
                                      of information, resp. that lack of ability to put your pieces
                                      together. so "liar" was a tiny little bit too much accusation.
                                      as for the allged "pseudonym" - no it isn't, but for reasons
                                      similar though different to ed lewis' i prefer to be just Nobby.


                                      > Nobby Tobby's weird, unpleasant and convoluted post confirms
                                      > me in my view that I didn't get anything wrong about the
                                      > sequence of events in the Sydney Socialist Alliance branch.

                                      and in a later post you wrote

                                      > Quite obviously Nobby's account is completely incorrect,
                                      > by way of omission.

                                      sigh... well, now that kieran "outed" himself - that's why it
                                      was only ALMOST unanimous (and not anymous - although i made
                                      jokes about others making this error, these two words are
                                      phetically much too similar to not type in the wrong one, and
                                      typing is something that you do without much concentration...).
                                      (why do others conclude straight away, that i meant unanimous,
                                      but not you, bob? i though you have an army of "informants" on
                                      the ground ;-)
                                      [note: they are just informants for you, not comrades?]


                                      > there was a meeting of the Sydney branch of the Alliance at
                                      > which, in particular, two members of the ISO spoke strongly
                                      > in favour of preferencing Labor over Clover Moore

                                      no. just one.


                                      > and that the understanding at the end of that meeting was that
                                      > preferencing Labor was the position of the Sydney branch of the
                                      > Alliance.

                                      so does your ALP branch discussions end with "understandings"?
                                      we take votes - or at least straw polls. but then, democracy is
                                      not one of your strengths...

                                      AND YOU ARE DEAD WRONG ON THIS ONE. i told you so, a vote was
                                      taken, and it was almost unanimously against the ALP machine,
                                      reflecting the discussion.


                                      > My further understanding is that there was then a caucus of the
                                      > ISO, at which the ISO leaders persuaded a majority to support
                                      > preferencing Clover Moore.

                                      so what does an ISO meeting have to do with the SA branch?
                                      is this ISO meeting, of which you seem to have quite much
                                      information about, your only proof of leadership pressure
                                      to change <whose?> opinions in favour of clover moore, which
                                      is where the opinions have been anyway?


                                      > Another meeting of the Sydney branch of the Alliance was then held,
                                      > which decided to preference Clover Moore, with the ISO member who
                                      > still favoured preferencing Labor, dissenting.

                                      not "still" - it was (from the accounts of this list) obviously
                                      her first meeting and discussion on this question. you are wrong
                                      in almost every sentence of your account, bob, i hope you realise
                                      that. did you say earlier on "completely incorrect" to my account?
                                      well, i tell you: i was dead right, as i do check my facts before
                                      posting them, and also, i was right in the heart of that decision-
                                      making process, unlike you!


                                      > Nobby Tobby now says it was all unanimous (or "anonymous") all
                                      > through, and he accuses me, in this spirit, of being a "fabricator
                                      > of lies".

                                      well, despite my apologies above, i have to flip back: you ARE
                                      quite obviously a B.liar: "unanimous (or "anonymous") all through"?
                                      well, (1) so you did realise that i meant unanimous - now, i even
                                      call you dishonest! and (2) i clearly said ALMOST unanimous, so
                                      how comes you conclude "all through"? BOB, this is the way your
                                      argumentations work: always deviate a little bit from the truth
                                      to serve you own political interest and die-hard positions - and
                                      that for decades...


                                      > Brother Nobby Tobby seems to be a pretty nasty piece of work,

                                      thanks for that - doesn't bother me, if it comes from you.
                                      i'm not your brother, i am a rank & file socialist, and you are
                                      just a piece in the ALP machine, self-assigend to keep the left
                                      flank (the real socialists) busy with your rantings...
                                      not with me bob, my aim with this is, to once (and for all, when
                                      it comes to me) reveal your methods, and i WILL leave you alone
                                      with that. there's work to be done out there, in the real world.
                                      as others have mentioned before: people prefer to not waste their
                                      time with your crude pieces of mail.


                                      > throwing around accusations of fabrication and lying far too
                                      > easily.

                                      alright, this time i spent more time - read: made it harder for
                                      me - before reconfirming my analysis.


                                      > If he believes I got it wrong, the obvious way to make his case is
                                      to
                                      > give a frank and honest account of the sequence of events and the
                                      > alternative lines of argument in the Alliance, the DSP and the ISO.

                                      can't be bothered. (1) you got the accounts, and (2) i am not
                                      answerable to someone who is hostile to hard-working socialists.
                                      ha! are you seriously demanding all the lines of argument in all
                                      those 3 organisations? i am not even a member of ALL of them...
                                      well, you will even get another one, and you can read it even
                                      online later on - let's see if you know, where you can find the
                                      appropriate source. a hint: it's part of SA's open democracy.


                                      > Obviously, Zinovievist organisational arrangements don't allow him
                                      > to engage in a frank discussion of the events, so he falls back on
                                      > crude, offensive and inaccurate accusations that I'm lying.

                                      dead wrong again here, though not with the latter 3 words.


                                      > But both groups are obviously bound, in reality, in the Socialist
                                      > Alliance by the decision made by the leadership of the groups.

                                      ??? WE are the Sydney Central branch of SA, and WE are the ones,
                                      who analyse and discuss our local politics. this again is a classic
                                      example of - you guessed it - DEMOCRACY!
                                      and hard to comprehend for you, i know...

                                      Nobby.
                                    • Ambrose Andrews
                                      ... Very good. I absolve you. ... Indeed. This genuine belief turned out to have been a mistaken genuine belief. ... I don t think saying Chris Kerr is a
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 5, 2004
                                        ozleft wrote:

                                        > By Bob Gould
                                        >
                                        > Ambrose Andrews wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>> Bob Gould in his inimitable fashion, 'outed' Chris Kerr as being
                                        >>
                                        > Peter Boyle. The twist in that instance is that it wasn't technically
                                        > 'outing' because it wasn't correct... it wasn't true. It was one of
                                        > Bob's ahhh... educated stabs in the dark.>>
                                        >
                                        > Ambrose Andrews alleges that I outed Chris Kerr on this list. As
                                        > comrade Ambrose ought to know, that's just not true. I've never outed
                                        > anyone on any list.
                                        >
                                        > I did ask some pointed questions about whether Dennis Berrell and
                                        > Michael Berrell were the same person, but I gathered that one of those
                                        > identities was the man's real name. Dennis Michael Berrell clarified
                                        > that to my satisfaction. It's hardly outing anyone to try to keep
                                        > track of their real name or dual personalities.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Very good. I absolve you.

                                        > I didn't out Chris Kerr either. I genuinely thought, on the basis of
                                        > stylistic similarities in the rather lame satire used by Kerrvert and
                                        > Peter Boyle that Kerrvert was a pseudonym for Peter Boyle.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Indeed. This genuine belief turned out to have been a mistaken genuine
                                        belief.

                                        > As a result of this confusion on my part, one of Chris Kerr's fellow
                                        > DSP members outed him, and I can hardly be blamed for that.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        I don't think saying 'Chris Kerr is a real person' qualifies as outing.
                                        Possibly inning.

                                        > I've never outed anyone, I've just commented wryly a few times on the
                                        > barbed way people hiding behind pseudonyms have put the boot into me,
                                        > which is a reasonable response.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Nobby is not a pseudonym.

                                        > I hope Ambrose Andrews will withdraw the claim that I outed Chris Kerr.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        I hereby assert that you failed to 'out' Chris Kerr solely by virtue of
                                        the fact that your genuine belief that he was a pseudonym for Peter
                                        Boyle turned out to be a mistaken belief. Had your belief been
                                        well-founded and correct, you would logically have outed him.

                                        Owing to the fact that he was immune / un-outable / 'in', I can happily
                                        assert that you are not guilty of outing Chris Kerr.

                                        Release the prisoner!

                                        -AA.


                                        --
                                        Ambrose Andrews
                                        LPO Box 8274 ANU Canberra ACT 2601 Australia
                                        http://www.vrvl.net/~ambrose/
                                        +61-415544621
                                        CE38 8B79 C0A7 DF4A 4F54 E352 2647 19A1 DB3B F823
                                      • kieran latty
                                        The claim of Zinovievism is unfounded, particularily in this case. There is no formal ISO position on the Moore issue. Whilst we did discuss the issue, of
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 5, 2004

                                          The claim of Zinovievism is unfounded, particularily in this case.

                                          There is no formal ISO position on the Moore issue.

                                          Whilst we did discuss the issue, of those ISO members present, 2 voted for Moore,  I Abstained.

                                          Individual members were free, and did, express their views on this issue at the meeting of the Alliance.

                                          They are also free to discuss these issues openly, as I have.

                                          However, I do agree with the concept of democratic centralism- if we did have a full discussion and came to a formal decision I would expect other members of the ISO to abide by that decision.

                                          They should still, of course, be allowed to raise disagreements with the aim of changing that position.

                                          Now, i think there are exceptions to this rule.

                                          If the ISO took a completely mad decision, I would have to consider arguing and voting against it openly.

                                          I do not in any way think the Moore decision falls into that catagorie.

                                           

                                           


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