Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Australia: Power workers oppose NSW Labor government's privatisation bid

Expand Messages
  • Michael Berrell
    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/powe-f27_prn.shtml [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 26, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/powe-f27_prn.shtml

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • duroyan fertl
      While I know that the nuts at WSWS go to extremes in not differentiating between ANY of the other parties (having split their preferences 3 ways - ALP, Green
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 26, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        While I know that the nuts at WSWS go to extremes in not differentiating between ANY of the other parties (having split their preferences 3 ways - ALP, Green and Coalition - at the last Federal election) I do wonder if perhaps it might have warped their brains slightly.

        The article that Michael posted a link to contains this wonder:

        "Opening Tuesday’s rally, Unions NSW assistant secretary Mark Thistlethwaite declared there were 15 state Labor MPs on the platform and commended them for their “courage” in “opposing” Iemma and Costa. Their supposed opposition, however, has more in common with concerns over the future loss of seats. Public opposition to the privatisation of state electricity is running at 64 percent and Iemma’s approval rating is at a 10-year low."

        They mean, of course, MATT Thistlethwaite, of Unions NSW, and AWU, and former NSW Young Labor prez.
        MARK Thistlethwaite was a candidate for One Nation, ten years ago:
        http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/feature_stories/article_218.asp?s=1

        Duroyan

        Michael Berrell <dennyben@...> wrote:
        http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/feb2008/powe-f27_prn.shtml

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        *********************************************
        Duroyan Fertl
        State Convenor, NSW Socialist Alliance
        (02) 9690 1977/ 0403 919 377
        For the millions, not the millionaires!
        http://www.socialist-alliance.org

        Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

        ---------------------------------
        Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • bobgould987
        The so-called World Socialist Web Site quite a few years ago took a dramatic turn to the right and now attacks all socialists, attacks the working class and
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 27, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          The so-called World Socialist Web Site quite a few years ago took a
          dramatic turn to the right and now attacks all socialists, attacks the
          working class and all its organisations, and in practice peddles the
          ideology of the bourgeoisie. Current bourgeois ideology concerning the
          labour movement is absolutely clear: unions are outdated, no use to
          workers, and workers should give unions away. That point of view of
          the ruling class took a terrible beating in the recent federal
          election, and a good thing, too.

          The World Anti-socialist Web Site peddles basically the same story:
          unions are out of date and workers should leave them, the only
          political task is the totally metaphysical idea that the workers can
          be persuaded to directly construct the World Socialist Web Site
          Revolutionary Party by means of the web.

          http://tinyurl.com/2baa5y
        • Michael Berrell
          Unfortuneately I can t open the link but I suspect I get a serve. Once again I ask what action will be taken by the rank and file of the ALP if this
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 27, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Unfortuneately I can't open the link but I suspect I get a serve.

            Once again I ask what action will be taken by the rank and file of the ALP if this privatisation goes ahead. What action will be taken if Iemma and Costa ignore the state conference in May. Will Bob put his money where his mouth is and move for the expulsion of Iemma, Costa and any other MP who votes for the privatisation in defiance of the party's platform?


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bobgould987
            To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:11 AM
            Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Australia: Power workers oppose NSW Labor government's privatisation bid


            The so-called World Socialist Web Site quite a few years ago took a
            dramatic turn to the right and now attacks all socialists, attacks the
            working class and all its organisations, and in practice peddles the
            ideology of the bourgeoisie. Current bourgeois ideology concerning the
            labour movement is absolutely clear: unions are outdated, no use to
            workers, and workers should give unions away. That point of view of
            the ruling class took a terrible beating in the recent federal
            election, and a good thing, too.

            The World Anti-socialist Web Site peddles basically the same story:
            unions are out of date and workers should leave them, the only
            political task is the totally metaphysical idea that the workers can
            be persuaded to directly construct the World Socialist Web Site
            Revolutionary Party by means of the web.

            http://tinyurl.com/2baa5y






            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 4:34 PM


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ed Lewis
            Michael, if the tinyurl link doesn t work, the link to the front page is here: http://ozleft.wordpress.com/ Perhaps you could bookmark it. At the bottom of the
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 27, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Michael, if the tinyurl link doesn't work, the link to the front page
              is here: http://ozleft.wordpress.com/ Perhaps you could bookmark it.
              At the bottom of the front page are hotlinks where you can sign up for
              RSS feeds for new posts and/or comments.
            • Michael Berrell
              Yes I looked it up from Ozleft. I didn t get a mention. I m very disappointed. Bob s seems to think that Iemma and Costa will eventually be forced to backdown
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 27, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes I looked it up from Ozleft.

                I didn't get a mention. I'm very disappointed.

                Bob's seems to think that Iemma and Costa will eventually be forced to backdown on this. There's no indication of this. The only way I can see it being defeated is if there is a revolt in caucus or a revolt by Labor MPs on the floor of parliament. Even then I feel Iemma and Costa will attempt to have it passed with the support of the opposition. That would be absolutely disastrous.

                The Libs have been curiously quiet on this. I believe they support the privatisation. If Farrell had any political he'd come out and oppose it. That would really turn the heat up on Iemma and effectively drive a wedge between Labor and the Greens.

                Whatever transpires I can't see how Labor can possibly be competitive at the next state election with Iemma and Costa in their current positions. Whatever happens they have to go.

                The situation is every bit as serious as the one in Queensland in 1957 where the premier and a majority of the parliamentary party refused to implement policy in accordance with party platform.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ed Lewis
                To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 1:54 PM
                Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Australia: Power workers oppose NSW Labor government's privatisation bid


                Michael, if the tinyurl link doesn't work, the link to the front page
                is here: http://ozleft.wordpress.com/ Perhaps you could bookmark it.
                At the bottom of the front page are hotlinks where you can sign up for
                RSS feeds for new posts and/or comments.






                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 4:34 PM


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bobgould987
                Pseudo-leftists join the anti-union chorus Michael Berrell keeps asking his idiot question, on the Green Left discussion list, demanding some kind statement
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Pseudo-leftists join the anti-union chorus

                  Michael Berrell keeps asking his idiot question, on the Green Left
                  discussion list, demanding some kind statement from me as to whether
                  members of the Labor Party should campaign for the expulsion of Costa
                  and Iemma if they don't carry out policy.

                  More...This is humbug and pure demagogy from Berrell, who makes no
                  secret of his sympathy for the right-wing, twilight zone,
                  ex-Trotskyists of the World Socialist Web Site. The WSWS says people
                  in the trade unions and the Labor Party campaigning to defeat the
                  electricity privatisation are in some secret way fighting to defend it.

                  Berrell's oh-so-leftist contribution to the struggle against
                  electricity privatisation is to demand that we move more or less
                  immediately to demand the expulsion of Costa and the premier. At this
                  stage of the battle, that pseudo-demand from Berrell is a diversion
                  and a disruption, insofar as anyone takes any notice of a chameleon
                  who support the twilight zone ex-Trotskyists at the same time as
                  distancing himself from them a bit.

                  Full: http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/antiunionchorus/
                • Michael Berrell
                  Well I finally caught Bob s attention. Bob tries to establish a link between myself and Mark Aarons. Well I certainly have no time for Aarons. As I understand
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well I finally caught Bob's attention.

                    Bob tries to establish a link between myself and Mark Aarons. Well I certainly have no time for Aarons. As I understand it Aarons is ex-CPA who following the demise of the USSR has moved rapidly to the right and now advocates Neo-Liberalism and is actively hostile to Marxism. Aarons wrote a number of articles last year attacking Fretilin in East Timor for its so called links to Marxism. If aything there are clear parallels between Aarons and Michael Costa both of whom have moved from the far left to the right.

                    All I've said is that it's all very well to move motions opposing the privatisation of electricity in NSW I should imagine every ALP branch in the state has done so. I think a figure was given in 1997 that 95% of all branches in NSW opposed privatisation. I'm just wondering who the 5% of branches were who supported it!

                    Push will come to shove of course if and when Iemma and Costa push ahead with privatisation in defiance of the will of nearly all rank and file members of the ALP and the party platform. Then we will have a situation analogous to the situation in Queensland where the Premier Vince Gair was ultimately expelled from the party.

                    That question will arise when and if the privatisation proceeds in defiance of the party platform. Bob and I seem to be in agreement on that.

                    Bob seems to be resorting to a bit of 'red baiting' by ridiculing my association with the World Socialist Web Site. Listmembers would be well aware that while I support many positions of the WSWS I also have some profound political differences with the WSWS and I'm not shy in putting those differences forward on this list or elsewhere when the need arises.


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: bobgould987
                    To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:09 AM
                    Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Australia: Power workers oppose NSW Labor government's privatisation bid


                    Pseudo-leftists join the anti-union chorus

                    Michael Berrell keeps asking his idiot question, on the Green Left
                    discussion list, demanding some kind statement from me as to whether
                    members of the Labor Party should campaign for the expulsion of Costa
                    and Iemma if they don't carry out policy.

                    More...This is humbug and pure demagogy from Berrell, who makes no
                    secret of his sympathy for the right-wing, twilight zone,
                    ex-Trotskyists of the World Socialist Web Site. The WSWS says people
                    in the trade unions and the Labor Party campaigning to defeat the
                    electricity privatisation are in some secret way fighting to defend it.

                    Berrell's oh-so-leftist contribution to the struggle against
                    electricity privatisation is to demand that we move more or less
                    immediately to demand the expulsion of Costa and the premier. At this
                    stage of the battle, that pseudo-demand from Berrell is a diversion
                    and a disruption, insofar as anyone takes any notice of a chameleon
                    who support the twilight zone ex-Trotskyists at the same time as
                    distancing himself from them a bit.

                    Full: http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/antiunionchorus/






                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1302 - Release Date: 2/27/2008 4:34 PM


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ed Lewis
                    Norm Dixon, the Green Left cut-and-paster, seems to be a bit slow off the mark this morning. I would have thought this article in the Sydney Morning Herald
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Norm Dixon, the Green Left cut-and-paster, seems to be a bit slow off
                      the mark this morning.

                      I would have thought this article in the Sydney Morning Herald would
                      be of considerable interest. http://tinyurl.com/39deww

                      ALP Left ready to fight Costa

                      Andrew West
                      February 29, 2008
                      Advertisement

                      IEMMA Government MPs are on the brink of rebellion after one of the
                      Labor Party's most senior figures endorsed the right of ALP
                      politicians to vote in Parliament against the planned privatisation of
                      the state's electricity industry.

                      Luke Foley, the party's assistant general secretary who leads the Left
                      faction, has told his MPs that if the Treasurer, Michael Costa,
                      introduced privatisation bills before the issue is debated at the ALP
                      conference in May, the Government would be breaching an agreement with
                      unions.

                      Mr Foley declined to comment to the Herald, but three MPs, two union
                      leaders and several delegates present at the Left's annual general
                      meeting on Monday night have confirmed he made the statement.

                      Mr Foley reportedly told the meeting: "A commitment was given that no
                      legislation would be introduced prior to the party conference. If
                      privatisation legislation is introduced prior to the conference, then
                      MPs would be within the their rights to tell caucus that they would
                      not vote for it when it came before Parliament."

                      Mr Foley was responding to a question from the Sydney bookseller Bob
                      Gould, one of 250 members at the gathering in the Haymarket auditorium
                      of the Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Workers Union. Another
                      Left member, the Sydney solicitor James Shaw, said Mr Foley was even
                      more explicit, arguing that loyalty to party policy, which opposes
                      power privatisation, was more important than the rule demanding caucus
                      members vote together in Parliament.

                      etc
                    • glparramatta
                      Clearly, not as quick as our resident ``Green Laborite troll!
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Clearly, not as quick as our resident ``Green'' Laborite troll!

                        --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Lewis" <ozleft@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Norm Dixon, the Green Left cut-and-paster, seems to be a bit slow off
                        > the mark this morning.
                        >
                      • bobgould987
                        Brother Berrell, Now that we ve got each other s attention, I would raise a number of important questions with you. You say it s unfair of me to lump you with
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Brother Berrell,

                          Now that we've got each other's attention, I would raise a number of
                          important questions with you.

                          You say it's unfair of me to lump you with the twilight zoners of the
                          WSWS despite the fact that you constantly tout their website on the
                          Green Left list. You say you have some serious differences with the
                          WSWS and you cite a disagreement about Fretilin.

                          What I attacked the WSWS about wasn't Fretilin, as you well know. I
                          discussed at length the WSWS's increasingly right-wing standpoint on
                          the organised workers movement.

                          In particular, do you disagree with the WSWS's now longstanding
                          proposition that workers should leave the trade unions and that the
                          unions are now reactionary institutions?

                          Do you disagree with the WSWS's proposition that Labor, the Liberals
                          and the Greens are all equal instruments of the bourgeoisie and
                          therefore it is appropriate to advocate an equal distribution of
                          preferences to these parties? In my view that involves crossing the
                          class line to support the Liberals.

                          Do you disagree with the WSWS's proposition, in the right-wing leaflet
                          that they distributed at the mass protest against privatisation, that
                          privatisation will inevitably be victorious on this occasion?

                          Do you disagree with the WSWS's constant, and unexplained, proposition
                          that all the forces struggling against the privatisation are in some
                          mysterious way actually doing Costa's work to sell the privatisation?

                          Do you agree that the union officials who mobilised their members and
                          organised buses to bring them to the protest actually doing that to
                          support the privatisation, as the twilight zone right-wing cranks say?

                          Full response:

                          http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/antiunionchorus/#comment-264
                        • Michael Berrell
                          First let s cut the name calling. It s undignified to repeatedly refer to the WSWS as Twilight Zoners that s puerile. Its bizarre to refer to them as in any
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 28, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            First let's cut the name calling.

                            It's undignified to repeatedly refer to the WSWS as "Twilight Zoners" that's puerile.

                            Its bizarre to refer to them as in any way "Right Wing". Their errors stem from an uncompromising ultra left wing ant-capitalism. In fact this uncompromising stand is one of the things that attracts me to the outfit.

                            Bob you of all people are well aware that I have significant political differences with the WSWS on a wide range of issues. I've argued with you about Stalinism, I supported and still do the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, my understanding of why the Soviet Union ultimately failed is quite different. I wrote a lengthy piece on the list last week on my attitude towards Castro and Cuba which again was quite different to the WSWS attitude.

                            You were present at the public meeting where I questioned Nick Beams from the floor about SEP preferencing. I wrote to Peter Boyle verify it with him after the Federal Election and told him that I voted for the Socialist Alliance in the Senate because I couldn't be bothered numbering all the squares. If I were to vote for a SEP candidate I would number all the squares because I disagree with the preferencing policy.

                            So to depict me as an uncritical propagandist for the WSWS is quite wrong.

                            The difference over Fretilin by the way was not with the WSWS but with Mark Aarons.

                            I have never advocated drumming the unions out of the ALP.

                            To the question at hand. Passing a motion opposing the privatisation of the state's electricity assets at a public meeting deserves no special kudos. Such a motion would have been passed at every branch of the ALP in the state as the first order of business after this matter came up. I know it was passed unanimously at the Harbord branch of the ALP. Its no secret that the privatisation of electricity is opposed by an overwhelming majority of rank and file ALP members. Probably in the order of over 85% perhaps even well over 90%.

                            That's not in question. What is in question is what will happen if Iemma and Costa push ahead with the privatisation in the face of the overwhelming opposition of the rank and file of the ALP and in direct violation of the party platform. Since we know that there is overwhelming opposition to the privatisation within the rank and file we know that any move to ratify it at the conference in May will be a stitch up. In any case Costa has expressly stated that he will ignore any decision made at the May conference. Isn't this in itself a violation of the party platform.

                            In any case if the party doesn't move on Iemma and Costa then the electorate certainly will. The lesson of history has demostrated that when the ALP is out of step with the wishes of its rank and file it is inevitably flogged at the polls. This was the lesson from the debacle in NSW in 1988, Federally in 1996 and will be again in 2011 if this is allowed to proceed.







                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: bobgould987
                            To: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:53 PM
                            Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Australia: Power workers oppose NSW Labor government's privatisation bid


                            Brother Berrell,

                            Now that we've got each other's attention, I would raise a number of
                            important questions with you.

                            You say it's unfair of me to lump you with the twilight zoners of the
                            WSWS despite the fact that you constantly tout their website on the
                            Green Left list. You say you have some serious differences with the
                            WSWS and you cite a disagreement about Fretilin.

                            What I attacked the WSWS about wasn't Fretilin, as you well know. I
                            discussed at length the WSWS's increasingly right-wing standpoint on
                            the organised workers movement.

                            In particular, do you disagree with the WSWS's now longstanding
                            proposition that workers should leave the trade unions and that the
                            unions are now reactionary institutions?

                            Do you disagree with the WSWS's proposition that Labor, the Liberals
                            and the Greens are all equal instruments of the bourgeoisie and
                            therefore it is appropriate to advocate an equal distribution of
                            preferences to these parties? In my view that involves crossing the
                            class line to support the Liberals.

                            Do you disagree with the WSWS's proposition, in the right-wing leaflet
                            that they distributed at the mass protest against privatisation, that
                            privatisation will inevitably be victorious on this occasion?

                            Do you disagree with the WSWS's constant, and unexplained, proposition
                            that all the forces struggling against the privatisation are in some
                            mysterious way actually doing Costa's work to sell the privatisation?

                            Do you agree that the union officials who mobilised their members and
                            organised buses to bring them to the protest actually doing that to
                            support the privatisation, as the twilight zone right-wing cranks say?

                            Full response:

                            http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/02/29/antiunionchorus/#comment-264






                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                            No virus found in this incoming message.
                            Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                            Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1303 - Release Date: 2/28/2008 12:14 PM


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • bobgould987
                            Why I have absolutely no intention of getting out a leaflet calling for the expulsion of Costa and Iemma at this stage in the struggle against electricity
                            Message 13 of 13 , Mar 1 8:31 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Why I have absolutely no intention of getting out a leaflet calling
                              for the expulsion of Costa and Iemma at this stage in the struggle
                              against electricity privatisation

                              The web is a stamping ground for adventurers, trolls and demagogues
                              who hide behind their anonymity. Some people have sound reasons for
                              choosing pseudonyms on the web, like job considerations etc. It would
                              be bad web etiquette to out people indiscriminately for this kind of
                              reason. Having said that, I don't take terribly seriously people on
                              the web who strike demagogic poses sheltering behind anonymity.

                              http://ozleft.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/leafletsdemandsand/
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.