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Re: The Institute for the History of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution

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  • bobgould987
    Cyber-entity Raven s personal little Moscow Trial By Bob Gould Several people in the DSP leadership circle keep telling me that cyber-entity Raven is a real
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 4, 2006
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      Cyber-entity Raven's personal little Moscow Trial

      By Bob Gould

      Several people in the DSP leadership circle keep telling me that
      cyber-entity Raven is a real person, and some claim to have met him.

      That's as may be. Perhaps he's a real person who has a legitimate
      reason for preserving his anonymity on the internet. I'm not entirely
      convinced of that, but presuming that he's a real person, not an
      artificially constructed cyber-entity.

      He has now slandered me twice in the most sweeping, derogatory way. A
      few weeks ago he clearly pointed the bone at me as what he called an
      agent provocateur, and in a lengthy post in which he reveals a
      Stalinist view of the events of 1956 he says I'm a dedicated reactionary.

      This all presents me with a certain difficulty. I feel a bit like the
      victims of the Moscow Trials. I'm accused by an anonymous accuser of
      the most repellent actions possible in the workers movement: being an
      agent provocateur and being a dedicated reactionary.

      In the real trials in Stalinist states, those accusations, often also
      by anonymous informants, led very quickly to a bullet in the back of
      the head.

      There's a terrifying and powerful book by David King, published by the
      English publisher Bootle in 2003, which follows on from David King's
      book of photo montages, which consists of NKVD mugshots of nearly 200
      victims of the Moscow and other trials in the USSR. These photos were
      mostly taken a couple of days before the execution of these people.

      In the text the NKVD file usually grimly records something like
      "convicted of counter-revolutionary agitation, shot the next day",
      etc. Often these people were rehabilitated many years later.

      It seems the only thing that saves me from a bullet in the back of the
      head from Roger Raven (or whoever he is) is that he and his associates
      don't hold state power. (A few days ago my old acquaintance Sol Salbe
      ticks me off for calling Max Watts and Michael Berrell
      cyber-busybodies, but he remains silent about Raven's extreme slanders
      of me.)

      I would appeal to the DSP leadership, the opposition faction in the
      DSP, and to anyone who reads the Green Left list, to support this
      suggestion that I put to cyber-entity Raven.

      1. I don't insist that you reveal who you are. You may have good
      reasons for anonymity, but at least you owe me an explanation as to
      from what political standpoint you make these accusations.

      2. If you have any evidence that I'm an agent provocateur or a
      dedicated reactionary, please present this evidence, rather than
      slandering me anonymously. I would ask all fair-minded people,
      including the moderator, who read the Green Left list to support these
      proposals.
    • alanb1000
      ... Bob, I suggest you use Google to see if he is real, anonymous or whatever. If you don t know how to do that, just ask. I ve just done it myself. His name
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 4, 2006
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        "bobgould987" wrote:
        > 1. I don't insist that you reveal who you are. You may have good
        > reasons for anonymity,

        Bob, I suggest you use Google to see if he is real, anonymous or
        whatever.

        If you don't know how to do that, just ask.

        I've just done it myself. His name turns up quite a bit in contexts
        where it is clear that it is the same person. This includes a public
        submission to a (WA) parliamentary committee, where it would
        presumably be impossible to use a pseudonym.

        Check it yourself if you don't believe me. It's trivially easy to do
        so. Or don't. I don't care.

        Just don't keep banging on about something which you are clearly
        wrong about.

        For the record, I'm not really fond of his tone either, but that's
        between you and him.

        Alan Bradley
      • rogerraven
        It has long been my experience that true mediocrity is bitterly envious of real talent. While Gould can t claim to be a Windschuttle, his black armband view
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 4, 2006
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          It has long been my experience that true mediocrity is bitterly
          envious of real talent. While Gould can't claim to be a
          Windschuttle, his black armband view of the Soviet period is of course
          entirely appropriate for a Hard Right agent provocateur.
        • Sol Salbe
          Another great example of unwarranted assumptions. In his comment below Bob Gould complains:(A few days ago my old acquaintance Sol Salbe ticks me off for
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 4, 2006
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            Another great example of unwarranted assumptions.

            In his comment below Bob Gould complains:(A few days ago my old
            acquaintance Sol Salbe ticks me off for calling Max Watts and Michael
            Berrell cyber-busybodies, but he remains silent about Raven's extreme
            slanders of me.)
            There are some interesting assumptions here. Who says I ever read
            that Raven bloke or has ever been interested in his comments? I made
            it clear in my contribution that I have been put off by the tone of
            most of the discussion on this list. I don't read it.

            Of course I don't think the charges as conveyed by Bob are warranted.
            In fact I think the person who made them deserves a figurative kick
            in the backside. There is no room for those charges on this list. Bob
            Gould has got faults -- among other things he won't believe me when I
            tell him that I don't give a toss about the DSP's internal life and
            when I talk to my old mate Peter Boyle it is as often as not in
            regard to culinary matters - but his commitment to good causes should
            not be put in doubt by any Johnny come lately.

            Whatever you do please don't assume that I read everything. I don't
            even get e-mails from this list - I read it onl-line and only those
            of few items that look interesting. [I read everything on
            Israel/palestine even if the writers is a crushing bore or does not
            what s/he is talking about but I don't have to suffer anything else.

            Sol


            --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "bobgould987"
            <bobgould987@...> wrote:
            >
            > Cyber-entity Raven's personal little Moscow Trial
            >
            > By Bob Gould
            >
            > Several people in the DSP leadership circle keep telling me that
            > cyber-entity Raven is a real person, and some claim to have met him.
            >
            > That's as may be. Perhaps he's a real person who has a legitimate
            > reason for preserving his anonymity on the internet. I'm not
            entirely
            > convinced of that, but presuming that he's a real person, not an
            > artificially constructed cyber-entity.
            >
            > He has now slandered me twice in the most sweeping, derogatory way.
            A
            > few weeks ago he clearly pointed the bone at me as what he called an
            > agent provocateur, and in a lengthy post in which he reveals a
            > Stalinist view of the events of 1956 he says I'm a dedicated
            reactionary.
            >
            > This all presents me with a certain difficulty. I feel a bit like
            the
            > victims of the Moscow Trials. I'm accused by an anonymous accuser of
            > the most repellent actions possible in the workers movement: being
            an
            > agent provocateur and being a dedicated reactionary.
            >
            > In the real trials in Stalinist states, those accusations, often
            also
            > by anonymous informants, led very quickly to a bullet in the back of
            > the head.
            >
            > There's a terrifying and powerful book by David King, published by
            the
            > English publisher Bootle in 2003, which follows on from David King's
            > book of photo montages, which consists of NKVD mugshots of nearly
            200
            > victims of the Moscow and other trials in the USSR. These photos
            were
            > mostly taken a couple of days before the execution of these people.
            >
            > In the text the NKVD file usually grimly records something like
            > "convicted of counter-revolutionary agitation, shot the next day",
            > etc. Often these people were rehabilitated many years later.
            >
            > It seems the only thing that saves me from a bullet in the back of
            the
            > head from Roger Raven (or whoever he is) is that he and his
            associates
            > don't hold state power. (A few days ago my old acquaintance Sol
            Salbe
            > ticks me off for calling Max Watts and Michael Berrell
            > cyber-busybodies, but he remains silent about Raven's extreme
            slanders
            > of me.)
            >
            > I would appeal to the DSP leadership, the opposition faction in the
            > DSP, and to anyone who reads the Green Left list, to support this
            > suggestion that I put to cyber-entity Raven.
            >
            > 1. I don't insist that you reveal who you are. You may have good
            > reasons for anonymity, but at least you owe me an explanation as to
            > from what political standpoint you make these accusations.
            >
            > 2. If you have any evidence that I'm an agent provocateur or a
            > dedicated reactionary, please present this evidence, rather than
            > slandering me anonymously. I would ask all fair-minded people,
            > including the moderator, who read the Green Left list to support
            these
            > proposals.
            >
          • bobgould987
            A further appeal to the leadership of the DSP and the moderator of the Green Left list By Bob Gould An individual writing under the pseudonym Roger Raven has
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 5, 2006
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              A further appeal to the leadership of the DSP and the moderator of the
              Green Left list

              By Bob Gould

              An individual writing under the pseudonym Roger Raven has today
              (Sunday) made even more precise his accusation that I am an agent
              provocateur. He says that Gould is a "Hard Right agent provocateur"
              and he associates my role as a "Hard Right agent provocateur" with
              what he calls my "black armband" view of Soviet history.

              Presumably anyone who doesn't have a Stalinist view of Soviet history
              is in danger of being classified as a right-wing provocateur if they
              express their views strongly, as I tend to do.

              The term agent provocateur has a precise meaning in the workers
              movement: that the person involved is an agent of forces outside the
              workers movement, usually the state.

              It's fantastic for a man writing under a pseudonym to make such an
              assertion about anyone without presenting any evidence. Is it now the
              case that on the Green Left list it's possible to accuse someone of
              being an agent provocateur without evidence and for the moderator of
              the list and the DSP leadership to say nothing about this?

              I've previously raised a similar issue concerning indiscriminate
              labelling of people in the labour movement as scabs, and sensibly the
              people who were using that rhetoric dropped off. At least those people
              weren't hiding too hard under a pseudonym.

              I pointed out that the term scab introduced the dangerous possibility
              of people accused of scabbery taking legal action, as well
              indiscriminate use of the term being a bad thing in principle. Much
              the same applies to the accusation that I am an agent provocateur,
              made by someone who clearly has a developed Stalinist view of
              historical events.

              Alan Bradley reduced the question to some kind of conflict between
              myself and the person who calls himself Roger Raven, but that's furphy
              in a situation in which a specific accusation has been made against me.

              I repeat my request that the moderator of the Green Left list assert
              in the most forceful to the person who calls himself Roger Raven that
              he present evidence for his assertion, and if he can't, I insist that
              he immediately withdraw the allegation, and that the moderator of the
              list take whatever action is necessary to get him to present evidence
              or withdraw the allegation.

              It's a concrete allegation that can't just be left hanging, and as I
              value my political honour and reputation I don't intend to leave it
              hanging.
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