On Bob Gould & Icecreamhands2006
- I dont know which is the more pathetic. Bob Gould,
raving on about Third Period Stalinism over any
criticism of the ALP and Popular Frontism over the
Geelong Trades Hall Council PEOPLES DECLARATION. Or
icecreamhands2006, hurling abuse and slander at us,
sounding just like an aspiring Unions NSW bureaucrat.
At least Bob doesnt hide behind a penname. What a
gutless political coward.
As someone who has spent nearly 25 years taking on the
most conservative peak union body in the country,
Unions NSW. I really enjoy the hearing that Socialists
are getting from workers over Howards attacks. That
was reflected at Blacktown on June 28 and all the
other IR protests.
Unions NSW havent a monopoly on working class opinion
and slander and abuse at committed Socialists reflects
how insecure they are of democracy and class struggle
politics. Along with other Comrades I argued for a
rally in the CBD as well as the Blacktown rally. Those
unionists who attended the Penrith, Blacktown and CBD
delegates meetings, were shocked by the heavy handed
manner that UNIONS NSW run those meetings. And where
was the biggest delegates meeting? In the CBD. And
thats where the biggest rally should be for November.
Also I look forward to distributing the Geelong Trades
Hall Council PEOPLES DECLARATION; it should be
compared to the oath at Eureka over 150 years ago.
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- ¡°Also are you going to join us in the protest against
Spotlight in Mount Druitt this Saturday? Or do you
think it is still a diversion?
I never said your spotlight picket was a diversion, I said your
challenging of me to turn up to any DSP event you choose to nominate
otherwise you couldn¡¯t take my arguments seriously was a diversion.
I hope this is just a misunderstanding of what I said and not a
crude Stalinist attempt to misrepresent what I said Mr Togs?
I refer to two quotes from my posting dated 15th July 2006, which
discuss Norm¡¯s and your debating technique.
¡°Before I go on just a few points about Norm¡¯s and others on this
list debating technique. I have been around a long time Norm and
have learnt many of the debating tricks that the sects and left
cults use to slap down their critics so your going to have to do a
lot better than you have so far.¡±
¡°Technique Three: You haven¡¯t earned the right to criticise!
This is a good trick because yet again it¡¯s another diversion. The
basic argument being that you have to earn the right to criticise
and if you aren¡¯t as active as them or active anymore, for some
reason your arguments aren¡¯t valid or can be easily dismissed on
this basis. This one¡¯s a beauty because it easily slaps down and
packs off your most likely critics. Most new recruits are young and
inexperienced and so are very unlikely to make you much trouble. It¡¯
s only the older and more experienced comrades who might give you
some grief but guess what, quite often along with the growing
disillusionment will come a dropping off in activity as they sit
back and start to think maybe all this endless tail chasing isn¡¯t
getting us anywhere.
Of course if you keep people involved in endless activity they
rarely get too much time to think. Some examples of ¡°you haven¡¯t
earned the right to criticise¡± courtesy of Norm and Mr Togs are
¡°But more to the point, what political activity does FA actually do
Auburn and other parts of his/her exclusive stamping ground?¡±
¡°Please FA, tell us what you do politically in Auburn? Perhaps we
¡°While I can easily list the 15 or so DSP member's modest
activity in the area, nobody I know of is aware of the activities of
FA and there is no evidence that FA exists politically in the area¡±.
¡°Until you do, please forgive me for not taking you seriously and
doubting your claims.¡±
And from Mr Togs
¡°If you are serious why don¡¯t you take Norm¡¯s advice
and join us the picket at Spotlight Mount Druitt next
As for your list of crimes of the ALP I could add plenty more
stretching back at least a century but that¡¯s not the point is it.
If it were just a matter of denouncing the crimes of the Labor Party
before the working class then as I said before the DSP would have
led us over the barricades along time ago.
But obviously it¡¯s a bit more complicated than that.
As I said before the ALP has about 5 million votes and you have
about 5 thousand. It¡¯s not just a matter of the working class not
knowing that the Labor leadership betrays them, as you seem to
think. They are not stupid and every survey shows what people really
think of politicians. Maybe, just maybe workers want a mass party
that can actually take power to represent them. They may not be
happy with Labor but despite their dissatisfaction they don¡¯t see
the Socialist Alliance as viable alternative, that¡¯s even if they
know it exists.
The working class has to reclaim control of their Unions and through
them reclaim the Labor Party. We need a Labor Government with
You may claim this is impossible but surely you agree with the first
part, that workers should reclaim control of their unions. If you
control the unions you control the Labor Party and it¡¯s policies.
Left oppositions have won control of unions in the past, and some
have won recently, so it¡¯s not impossible.
--- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, John Tognolini
> "Really guys you should try and develop a more
> balanced view of the
> Labor Party and its membership. I'm far from an
> apologist for the
> right wing leadership of the ALP but who do you think
> organised the
> mass rallies against work choices, which Party do most
> of these
> union officials and organisers belong to and which
> party do the
> overwhelming majority of them vote for ?
> Is it the ALP or DSP?
> And when the troops are finally withdrawn from Iraq
> which party is
> it do you think will be giving the orders to pull them
> Will it be the ALP or DSP?
> And before the pot starts calling the kettle black the
> DSP and
> resistance are hardly thriving at the moment and
> overflowing with
> FA there is women on this list too.
> To your arguments.
> It was the ALP that gave their preferences to Family
> First ahead of the Greens in Victoria that gave John
> Howard control of the Senate. That's why we have Work
> Choices and a host of other bad laws he has passed
> In NSW the state you and I live in FA, the leaders of
> UNIONS NSW had to be dragged screaming into a campaign
> against Work Choices. All they wanted was an ALP cheer
> squad campaign for next year's federal election and a
> High Court challenge. The DSP and SA played its part
> with others including some members of the ALP to get
> the IR campaign going with the mobilisations.
> Also what about my union the NSW Teachers Federation,
> we have over 50,000 members and we are not affiliated
> to the ALP. In the five years I've been on our state
> council, I can't think of one gathering where the ALP
> hasn't copped a serve. The NSWTF has played an
> important role in getting the IR Laws campaign going,
> along with NUW, NTEU, FBEU, AMWU CMFEU in this state.
> Also why are you so contemptuous of Resistance? They
> pulled off a highly successful national student strike
> on June 1against the IR Laws leading up to June 28 and
> have just had a substantially successful national
> conference. And the average age of DSP and SA members
> is a hell of lot younger than the ALP.
> Why are you also placing such a heavy emphasis on the
> ALP over Iraq. They still support Australian troops in
> Afghanistan and the US alliance. By the way, I think
> Mark Latham's, (since he left the ALP leadership) of
> the Australian/US alliance as "the last bastion of the
> White Australia policy?is pretty spot on and no
> Socialist will disagree with it, but is the ALP going
> to dump the alliance? Not in a month of Sundays FA.
> How about uranium mining FA is the ALP going to oppose
> it? ALP policy has always been to mine it.
> In conclusion FA why are you contributing to this list
> if you think the DSP/SA and Resistance are so
> irrelevant? We are not in the bad shape that you're
> describing, in fact I can't think of a better time or
> a more vital time to be a Socialist than today.
> On another point don't you think it's strange that we
> could have a Liberal/National state government next
> year because Howard backed away from privatising the
> Snowy Mountains power system? It stuffed the funding
> for the ALP's election promises. We do have a serious
> analysis of the the ALP and work with ALP members as
> I've stated above. But we do have serious problems
> with those who think and argue that the ALP is the
> centre of working class politics, it isn't.
> Also are you going to join us in the protest against
> Spotlight in Mount Druitt this Saturday? Or do you
> think it is still a diversion?
> John/Togs Tognolini
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