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The struggle in the DSP

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  • bobgould987
    Bob Gould comments on the struggle in the DSP leadership, based on a reading of the DSP internal discussion.
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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      Bob Gould comments on the struggle in the DSP leadership, based on a
      reading of the DSP "internal" discussion.

      http://members.optushome.com.au/spainter/struggleindsp.html
    • dave_r_riley
      ... Nice try, Bob...that is if you intended to write a soap opera. I suggest people study the draft resolution now on the SA website (published in Alliance
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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        --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "bobgould987"
        <bobgould987@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Bob Gould comments on the struggle in the DSP leadership, based on a
        > reading of the DSP "internal" discussion.


        Nice try, Bob...that is if you intended to write a soap opera. I
        suggest people study the draft resolution now on the SA website
        (published in Alliance Voices)

        http://www.socialist-alliance.org/resources/idb/AV%20Vol%205%20No%
        2011.doc

        rather than get too caught up in Bob's fanciful readings of the DSP's
        pre conference discussion.

        The axis of the DSP debate is addressed much more productively, I think
        (and without any attempted character assasinations) on the SUN website:

        http://www.socialistunitynetwork.co.uk

        and especially in Andy Newmans' article Broad Socialist Parties and
        the Cadre Question.

        Visitors to the SUN site might like to also review the issues being
        debated within the Scottish Socialist Party and some of the exchanges
        in regard to the Respect coalition.

        There's a major debate occurring on the left internationally about the
        present prospects for various regroupment projects. This debate occurs
        after a period during which several enterprises, including the
        Australian Socialist Alliance, have come into being.

        While Bob doesn't want a bar of this exchange -- that's obvious as he
        has chosen to stick with the Labor Party regardless of what it gets up
        to -- the experiences we have collectively garnered already -- in
        Scotland, England, France, now Germany and New Zealand -- warrant
        careful study.

        I think you'll find that the DSP resolution is a attempt to explore
        the history and future prospects of the process here as it relates to
        the perspectives of the Democratic Socialist Perspective.

        dave riley
      • Ed Lewis
        Dave Riley, what s this I hear about you being asked to remain an independent in the Socialist Alliance after you applied to join the DSP? Do you think that
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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          Dave Riley, what's this I hear about you being asked to remain an
          "independent" in the Socialist Alliance after you applied to join the
          DSP? Do you think that was completely honest with the Socialist
          Alliance membership? How many other "independents" were really secret
          DSP members?

          Also, is it true that Andy Newman's Socialist Unity Network, which you
          make a great fuss of in Britain, has about as many members as the
          Workers League in Australia?
        • Ed Lewis
          Another question, Dave Riley: When will the Lorimer-Percy amendments to the DSP perspectives document for the Socialist Alliance appear in Socialist Voices, or
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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            Another question, Dave Riley:

            When will the Lorimer-Percy amendments to the DSP perspectives
            document for the Socialist Alliance appear in Socialist Voices, or on
            the GLW site?
          • nobbytob
            Ed Lewis, are we now playing the muddy game of some bullshit will stick if i only throw hard and often enough? the one thing is to read internal stuff, the
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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              Ed Lewis,

              are we now playing the muddy game of some bullshit will stick if i
              only throw hard and often enough? the one thing is to read internal
              stuff, the other one is to understand the who's'who and what are the
              issues.
              just by your few lines i can already see that you completely fail to
              see the big issue underlying the whole debate that is useful, timely,
              and healthy. why don't you just stick to your reformist parties for
              your interventions. you might have your day there ...


              --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Lewis" <ozleft@o...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Another question, Dave Riley:
              >
              > When will the Lorimer-Percy amendments to the DSP perspectives
              > document for the Socialist Alliance appear in Socialist Voices, or on
              > the GLW site?
              >
            • alanb1000
              ... I ve got to admit that Bob spins a good yarn. I simply would never had considered vanishing down some of his rabbit holes.
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                "bobgould987" wrote:
                >
                > Bob Gould comments on the struggle in the DSP leadership, based on a
                > reading of the DSP "internal" discussion.
                >
                > http://members.optushome.com.au/spainter/struggleindsp.html
                >

                I've got to admit that Bob spins a good yarn. I simply would never had
                considered vanishing down some of his rabbit holes.
              • Kim B
                I ve got a question or two for Bob and Ed myself. What concrete things are you two has-been doing to build the anti-racism rallies and solidarity campaigns in
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 15, 2005
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                  I've got a question or two for Bob and Ed myself. 
                   
                  What concrete things are you two has-been doing to build the anti-racism rallies and solidarity campaigns in Sydney and around the country?
                   
                  DSP comrades, on both sides of the discussion, are working hard, playing active and central roles in these campaign and rallies, can the same be said for you too gossipers?
                   
                  Gossip all you like, bullshit all you like and while you preoccupy yourself with that, our comrades will get on with the real work of building solidarity with the Muslim, Arab and Lebanese community and building a real anti-racism campaign.
                   
                  Kim


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                • Nick Fredman
                  Ed Lewis ... Maybe about the same time that the Members Area of the Greens site http://www.greens.org.au/ is open to public, and all minutes
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 17, 2005
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                    "Ed Lewis" <ozleft@o...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Another question, Dave Riley:
                    >
                    > When will the Lorimer-Percy amendments to the DSP perspectives
                    > document for the Socialist Alliance appear in Socialist Voices, or on
                    > the GLW site?

                    Maybe about the same time that the "Members Area" of the Greens site
                    http://www.greens.org.au/ is open to public, and all minutes etc of all
                    internal discussions in the Greens are likewise publicly available.
                    I've never seen *any* internal discussion in the Greens (of which our
                    Ed I presume is still a member).

                    Not that I'm particularly interested or think such a thing would be
                    particularly useful*, but the point is the credibility and consistency
                    of Ed and his constant strident demands. You might have more
                    credibility as someone consistently interested in "open debate on the
                    left", and not a DSP-phobic gossip-monger (want some salsa to go with
                    that big chip on your shoulder, Ed?), when you launch a public campaign
                    to change the "closed caucus" nature of the Greens. I wait with
                    interest.

                    * While it may be amusing and possibly enlightening to read about
                    alleged secret schemes by the Queensland Greens to launder developer
                    money through the Lismore Rainforest Information Centre, so the NSW
                    could bypass their donation rules,
                    http://www.crikey.com.au//politics/2003/08/15-
                    boilermakergreens.print.html , such things are fairly marginal to the
                    nature of the Greens and how socialists should relate to them. Or so we
                    hope, because we don't see any internal discussions.
                  • bill
                    Hi everyone, With all the recent resignations from the SA and greenleft/DSP & the added financial troubles lately, is there any viable future within these
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 27, 2005
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                      Hi everyone,
                       
                      With all the recent resignations from the SA and greenleft/DSP & the added financial troubles lately, is there any viable future within these groups? The entire left is falling apart when it is now the time to show strength, unity & commraderie in the face of Howard's conservatist government. Unfortunately the knowledge and experience that most people on this list possess, does not  go a long way in gaining support from the true working class (not just the union hierachy) Employees are now looking past the Labour Party for a true workers party, and they are slowly realising that the Greens are the only alternative at this time. I wonder why that is?
                       
                      ps. Bring on the normal DSP onslaught....
                       
                      Bill Weller
                      Greens candidate for the South Australian seat of Reynell
                    • Duncan Meerding
                      I believe that experience has showned that perhaps the Greens do not want to triumph there working class politics as much as you like to think. I could be what
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 28, 2005
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                        I believe that experience has showned that perhaps the Greens do not want to triumph there working class politics as much as you like to think.
                         
                        I could be what you call unexperienced in the  political arena. As I have been only realy seriously involved in politics over 3 years.
                         
                         
                        But...
                         
                        There is one partucularly interesting example that comes to mind when talking of working class parties and the greens.. I was campaigning with some Green Left Weeklys and a person came up to me and a few others who were also getting Green Left Weekly around. This person whom I forget who they said they were said that he had offered for the Green party to have money to advertise their pro workers rights IR platform in the local rag, The Hobart Mercury. This was in the middle of the last national elections...
                         
                        This person said to us three activists  that for some reason the Tasmanian branch of the Green Party did not want to advertise what is a pretty good platform. Why is this? It has been mind boggling me for a while... a party that has such good working class policies does not want to advertise them. Excuse me but my memory ain't to good but the person also saud (I think) that it was because it was not want the greens wanted to campaign for in the election, (although it was their policy)
                         
                        I remeber that the greens campaign to christine milne in the senate was about taking tasmania forward about developing the tourist industry (?????)
                         
                        The conclusion that I have come to is that while the Green Party of Australia may have good working class policies (which I welcome), it also has other class interests, as the unacceptance of free advertising to get their working class paliamentry platforms, has shown.
                         
                        The add for Christine milne went on about the farmers and giving them a fair go, but why not also mention the 'workers' aswell?
                         
                        This is one example from perspnal experience and I could do some theorising to all the Greens policies but I want to go to bed now.
                         
                        I respect amany greens activists and worl in conjuction with a number and would be interested in more dialogue about what the Greens would like to suggest to do in helping build the on the ground IR campaign. I can safely say that this will be one of Socialist Aliances main prioties in the coming period.
                         
                         
                        I continue looking forward to working in collaboration with Greens activist againtst all draconian laws brought in by the Labor party and the Liberal  party.
                         
                         
                        Comradely
                         
                        Duncan
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: bill
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2005 1:45 PM
                        Subject: Re: [GreenLeft_discussion] The struggle in the DSP

                         
                        Hi everyone,
                         
                        With all the recent resignations from the SA and greenleft/DSP & the added financial troubles lately, is there any viable future within these groups? The entire left is falling apart when it is now the time to show strength, unity & commraderie in the face of Howard's conservatist government. Unfortunately the knowledge and experience that most people on this list possess, does not  go a long way in gaining support from the true working class (not just the union hierachy) Employees are now looking past the Labour Party for a true workers party, and they are slowly realising that the Greens are the only alternative at this time. I wonder why that is?
                         
                        ps. Bring on the normal DSP onslaught....
                         
                        Bill Weller
                        Greens candidate for the South Australian seat of Reynell
                      • bill
                        Can anyone tell me what will happen if the DSP changes its current leadership to the so called Boyle faction? What are the basic differences of the two
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 29, 2005
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                          Can anyone tell me what will happen if the DSP changes its current leadership to the so called Boyle faction? What are the basic differences of the two factions and will it change the DSP outlook for better or worse?
                          bill
                        • br3068
                          The Boyle faction dances naked around fires and sacrifices virgins. The current leadership just worships satan on weekends. You work out the implications...
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 29, 2005
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                            The "Boyle faction" dances naked around fires and sacrifices virgins.
                            The current leadership just worships satan on weekends. You work out
                            the implications...


                            --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, "bill" <mikabill@a...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Can anyone tell me what will happen if the DSP changes its current
                            leadership to the so called Boyle faction? What are the basic
                            differences of the two factions and will it change the DSP outlook for
                            better or worse?
                            > bill
                            >
                          • alanb1000
                            ... The Boyle faction consists of the majority of the current leadership. So there ll be no change there. It s likely that most of the supporters of the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 29, 2005
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                              "bill" wrote:
                              > Can anyone tell me what will happen if the DSP changes its current
                              > leadership to the so called Boyle faction?

                              The "Boyle faction" consists of the majority of the current leadership.
                              So there'll be no change there.

                              It's likely that most of the supporters of the minority view who are in
                              the current leadership will be re-elected, too, so there won't be much
                              change there either.

                              Some individuals may swap in or out, but the core leadership team will
                              be unchanged.

                              Now... it is notionally possible that some people may drop out even
                              after being re-elected. That's regrettably common. But it seems
                              unlikely in the case of the core supporters of the present minority.
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