6534RE: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Brainless, shameless, moralising rubbish from GLW Paramatta
- May 25, 2004Just to clarify something for bob gould as he should re read my original
reply. I did not say that they did not read them I said that people read
things and may not nececerilly adree with the politics inside of it.
Before you say someone is a dope readn posts properly as not to
embarrass your self.
And just because labour voters are anti war, does not mean that Labor is
an effective fighting force within the left movements especially the ant
war movement. From my out look it seems as if labours idea of movwement
work is to divide them. You just have to look at the ant war coalition
in Perth and Sydney to see a direct example of this.
DSP sectariansism, yeah that's why we are in the process of unification
with other left parties.
From: ozleft [mailto:ozleft@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 May 2004 11:18 PM
Subject: [GreenLeft_discussion] Re: Brainless, shameless, moralising
rubbish from GLW Paramatta
By Bob Gould
Most of the comments on my post of last night are deliberately insulting
and show up in bold relief the underlying political outlook of the DSP
Lordludd deliberately insults me by asserting that I'm trying to get the
right-winger, Nolan, to sue him. How stupid can you get? I was simply
trying to help Brother Ludd by pointing out the danger, both to himself
and the Green Left list, of recklessly throwing around thoughtless
rhetoric about scabs, particularly against an industrial lawyer.
In this context, my concern for the interests of the Green Left list,
which from time to time I find a useful platform, and even for the dopey
Lordludd, is genuine.
A leftist of my acquaintance once had to pull up stakes and move states
to escape a libel writ from a right wing union official who he had
rather unwisely called a scab. A rank and file leftist ironworkers union
leader in Newcastle, with whom I was acquainted, had to sell his house
when he lost a libel case against a right-wing union official.
In the overheated, politically hysterical, atmosphere generated by the
DSP leadership in the DSP ranks these considerations don't seem to rate
at all. Despite the obvious political disagreements I have with the DSP
leadership I'm genuinely shaken by how little attention they seem to pay
to these kinds of questions, in pursuit of their mistaken, sectarian
At the very least, the moderator of the list should declare a moratorium
on language about scabs, applied to living individuals. I have no
intention of drawing Mr Nolan's attention to this craziness on the GLW
list, but if he's a normal, opinionated pundit, as he seems to be, he's
likely to Google his own name from time to time to see what people say
Lordludd, GLParamatta and others are behaving very recklessly indeed,
and my purpose in raising the question is to draw attention to how
reckless this rhetoric is to the other 300-odd participants in this
All concerned should knock off crazy rhetoric about scabs.
My other purpose, obviously, is to raise very sharply the vicious
sectarianism towards the ranks of the labour movement displayed in
GLParamatta's header, and the lack of a sense of proportion and
judgment. The attempt is made, and continued by Lordludd and Simon
Butler, to associate Laborites in general with the reactionary views of
Nolan, in pursuit of the DSP's bankrupt schema about Labor being one of
the two capitalist parties, ignoring the social location and social base
of the ALP.
GLParamatta's timing is unfortunate, from his point of view. Today's
Sydney Morning Herald polls seems to show a rather substantial electoral
swing to Labor, and the pollsters, in trying to explain it, associate
the swing with Labor's opposition to the Iraq war.
The polls show that 88 per cent of Greens and Democrats oppose the war,
but 80 per cent of Labor voters are opposed as well. Only a minority of
Liberal voters are opposed, although the number of antiwar Liberals has
I'm struck forcibly by the fact that no-one on the GLW list has even
mentioned today's poll. DSP leadership supporters are usually very quick
to draw attention to polls showing increased opposition to the Iraq war,
but it seems this poll, which shows the overwhelming correlation between
voting Labor and opposing the war, is to be ignored -- because it might
sow illusions in Laborism, perhaps.
This poll underlines the class and political division between the Tory
right and the Labor-Green left in Australian society.
The DSP leadership can't cope with this phenomenon, because it doesn't
fit their schema, and they're driven to exactly the same device as the
right-wing Murdoch newspapers, of holding up an isolated right-winger,
called Nolan, as somehow representative of Laborism, despite all
evidence to the contrary, in things like the statements of Labor leaders
against the Iraq war and today's polls.
Duncan Meerding insults the Laborites who bought Moore's books at the
ALP state conference, saying they probably didn't read them. What a dope
this man is! In my experience as a bookseller everybody who buys Michael
Moore reads him, including Laborites, because he's so funny and
The ruling classes of the US and Australia are positively apopleptic
about Michael Moore, witness P.P. McGuiness's similar assault to Nolan
on him this morning in the Sydney Morning Herald. (McGuiness's attack
doesn't rate a mention on the Green Left list, but then McGuiness can't
be as easily fitted into Laborism as Nolan. Incidentally, GLW website
participants only have the Australian's word for it about Nolan's Labor
Party membership. Nolan may be trading on past associations, and may not
even be a current ALP member, but none of that's of any interest on the
GLW list. Anything goes if you want to kick the Laborites.)
From a socialist point of view, this DSP leadership sectarianism is
monumentally stupid. There is a very substantial polarisation in
Australian society building as the federal elections approach. The hopes
of the Labor-Green left side of Australian society are now heavily
invested in the prospect of the Labor-Green side defeating the Liberals
electorally, with the inevitable prospect of a Green balance of power in
The possibility of defeating the Liberals is the central axis of current
Australian politics, and even in a secondary way of world politics. The
election of a Labor government that withdraws Australian troops from
Iraq will be a very major blow to imperialism. Even the dopiest
political observers can see this, and that's driving the reactionary
side of Australian politics off its tree. In this situation, all the DSP
leadership can think to do is grasp at straws, in this instance Mr
Nolan, to try to create an impression that Laborites in general support
the Iraq war.
The DSP leadership is the only group of people in Australian society who
hold this eccentric view, and the ruthless, reckless and inaccurate way
their prosecute this view tends to cut them off from the whole left of
Australian society, which has other things on its mind, in particular
defeating the Liberals in the elections.
If there's a material crisis in the DSP, which is now pretty public, it
has everything to do with the DSP leadership's dead-end sectarian
political line towards the workers movement and the coming federal
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