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4219Re: More questions on the theory of the labor aristocracy

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  • Shane Hopkinson
    Jan 22, 2004
      --- In GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Strauss
      <jonathanstrauss11@y...> wrote:

      > I agree with Peter Boyle's presentation of the problem
      > at this point.

      Good - lets move on.

      >In fact, I will leave such
      > methodological questions there until we have material
      > to consider with them, because with every posting the
      > distortions seem to grow exponentially.

      Indeed I know what you mean - after quoting you twice I
      lapse into a paraphrase on the basis that we all know
      what we are saying but you say:

      >Shane, did I write the "current situation was not
      >relevant". No, I said it must be studied in a certain

      No you said:

      "Empirical investigation of the current state of
      the class structure and the current circumstances in
      the workers' movement in Australia" can't be relevant
      to, or come into, any Marxist analysis, IMO, unless it
      is historical, rather than sociological"

      and I asked what the hell you meant. So if you think
      I have distorted you I apologise.

      Then Peter wades in after 3-4 posts with:

      >Lenin was clearly the best Marxist of the 20th century. <snip>
      >Of course reality can prove the ideas of the smartest cookie
      >in the socialist movement wrong. But that has to be demonstrated
      >with a little more than the shallow, dismissive single sentences
      >that Shane Hopkinson has come up with so far in this discussion.

      Its kinda strange since I haven't mentioned Lenin at all.
      Most of the 4-5 exchanges have been about clarifying Jon's
      comment. My first post doesn't mention Lenin either - its
      just about saying that I'd like the debate to be focused on

      >But this puts a heavy challenge to all sides of this argument

      Indeed, and trying to work, and run a Greens election campaign keeps
      me busy as well. Bob obviously has a lot more textual knowledge and
      can mix it with you on that score.

      I hope we can get on with the
      discussion of how the theory applies to Australia.


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