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34494Re: ALP's Tree of Knowledge officially dead

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  • dave_r_riley
    Oct 7, 2006
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      With all due respect Sol == the voice in this country for the
      Palestinians and against Zionism has been sustained in no small
      measure by the far left. It has not be sustained by the ALP has it?

      Indeed, my guess is that in this regard you are on this list because
      you know you are among people who agree with you in terms of a
      particular outlook on the Levant.

      That doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't dedicated
      anti-Zionists in the Greens or the ALP. But at least in the ALP (as I
      don't know about the Greens in this regard) we know that the party is
      in fact committed to Zionism .

      That's true isn't it? With Bob Hawke, for instance, having served as
      the honorary member for Wills and Tel Aviv?

      So I have to make the point that we aren't simply talking about
      milieux here. We're talking about a VERY tangible concrete thing
      called politics and political perspective which has concrete substance
      in the minds of people and their consequential actions.

      So whether there are many members of the ALP -- rank and file members
      --who agree with you, say, is not the point, is it? The point is what
      did/do they do about it?

      If we take the example of the Lebanon 'incursion' just past, I think
      you'll find in centre after centre is was the Socialist Alliance
      --along with other forces for sure such as in the Greens(and of
      course Dave Spratt comes to mind) , within the Arab community, etc --
      took a leading role in the protests nationally.The "ALP" certainly
      didn't --although some individual ALP members may have.There were none
      the less very scarce on the ground here in Brisbane.

      The problem I have with the the Ozleft apologia mantra is that it
      pretends that this concrete political question is irrelevant to the
      exercise -- that the mere presence of the ALP on the Australian
      political landscape is enough such that all other little political
      rivulets should defer to it (although it seems that the Greens-- your
      party? -- are allowed a dispensation under this coda).

      As for what the ALP ranks actually think about 'their' party/'their'
      workers party :we know, and it's a fact, that they are voting with
      their feet.They may still be voting Labor come polling day but they
      sure as hell are no longer joining it in the numbers of yore.The party
      is bleeding its activist base.

      The other angle being engineered here is that this exchange is being
      built around a timeless question -- the nature of the ALP.I pointed
      out that the Aaronite CPA had a particular take on the ALP that
      dovetails nicely with the view being advocated for the rest of us by
      this Ozleft cabal. I suggest that's very ironic given that Gould
      considered the CPA to be made up of "Stalinist hacks -- many of whom
      later went on to fuse with the ALP.(No doubt being liberated from
      their Stalinist baggage in the crossover as we are supposed to
      conclude they moved further left in the process.)

      So while it may have that historical and theoretical import -- there's
      a core reality in the fact that the Socialist Alliance continues to
      exist not because it is a veneer held up by the DSP (as Gould would
      have it)*-- but because it is sustained by a very real collapse in the
      ALP support base. This is precisely what has allowed the Greens to
      prosper. Adherents don't grow on trees you know -- they are created in
      living reality , a reality in which the ALP is on the nose.

      Go back 20 years and the political landscape would have been different
      . Go back thirty years -- and the bedrock support for the ALP would
      have been very substantial indeed.

      So to pretend that in the living reality of our world the people of
      this continent are getting the Labor Party they deserve and are happy
      with what they get -- is ludicrous in the extreme. But thats' the game
      isn't it? A sham argument to the effect that there is this mythical
      herd of Labor Party adherents out there who think the party they've
      got is the very best possible...in the circumstances.

      What are these people supposed to be -- masochists? Nonetheless we are
      told that these minions don't seek to utter a word of protest
      publicly about their lot and consider anyone who does so to be raving

      And we are supposed to believe that this scenario is not the draft
      plot for a modern fairy tale...!

      dave riley

      *"(as Gould would have it)"
      The other argument afoot is one that proposes that there is indeed a
      major disillusionment with the ALP but that the SA is not the vehicle
      to harness that space. That in the context even of a Greens presence
      what we need is a loose Respect like amalgam (ISO) or a "New Workers
      Party" (SP/CWI). The problem is that both these propositions are
      schemas whereas the Alliance exists and in fact occupies what space
      either of these two patented theories would seek to fill... The
      related argument is that 'I/we won't have a bar of the SA because its
      congenically tainted by the DSP.' All I can say is this: Horses for
      courses. That's cool, go do your own thing.
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