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Graphing Calculator, Mac OS X, and licensing

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  • david craig
    Our IT department is (finally) moving all the labs and lecture halls to Mac OS X. Once again this raises some old issues concerning a Mac OS X version of
    Message 1 of 13 , May 14, 2003
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      Our IT department is (finally) moving all the labs and lecture halls to
      Mac OS X. Once again this raises some old issues concerning a Mac OS X
      version of Graphing Calculator, and its somewhat annoying -- sorry Ron,
      but it's true, even though I understand why you did it -- licensing
      scheme.

      Here's part of what I just received from them:

      > We [have no plans to support] both Classic and OS X. That is part of
      > the reason we have delayed moving to the new OS until now.

      and

      > It is unlikely that we will continue to support Graphing Calculator at
      > all. There particular licensing scheme requires that each individual
      > installation of the software has its own license, which is created
      > through an interaction with the company's web site. We cannot install
      > and maintain on our lab systems in this manner.

      I had similar hassles with GC support at the University of Minnesota,
      and for similar reasons.

      There's really nothing comparable to Graphing Calculator, and I will be
      extremely sad to have to leave it behind. It is currently the *only*
      application for which I ever need Classic on my own computers, and now
      that our IT won't be supporting Classic in the lecture halls and labs, I
      won't be able to use it as a demo tool any longer.

      Ron, *please* continue to consider a Mac OS X version. It's just so sad
      to me to see such a marvelous application disappearing into Mac history.

      David Craig


      <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
    • david craig
      ... Both us (Physics) and the Math Department are pushing for continued support for Graphing Calculator, but we are meeting heavy resistance from ITS. (You
      Message 2 of 13 , May 15, 2003
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        And this again today from ITS:

        > It is really their wacky licensing scheme that is the main problem.

        Both us (Physics) and the Math Department are pushing for continued
        support for Graphing Calculator, but we are meeting heavy resistance
        from ITS. (You know, because it's our job to make their lives easier.)

        I hope you're listening, Ron. They do have keyserver software on the
        system, so allowing GC to be keyserved would be a powerful pro argument.

        David Craig


        <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
      • david craig
        Would all those who emailed me in response to my original note mind re-sending your messages? I stupidly assumed that they were all cc ed to the digest, which
        Message 3 of 13 , May 15, 2003
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          Would all those who emailed me in response to my original note mind
          re-sending your messages? I stupidly assumed that they were all cc'ed
          to the digest, which they apparently were not.

          Thanks,
          David Craig


          <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
        • Michael de Podesta
          David Craig We went round this along time ago, and though an OSX version would indeed be a thing of beauty and very desirable, it appears to be simply
          Message 4 of 13 , May 15, 2003
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            David Craig

            We went round this along time ago, and though an OSX version would indeed be
            a thing of beauty and very desirable, it appears to be simply impossible for
            Ron and what's left the GC team to achieve.

            Given the appalling calculator that Apple currently distribute (I have been
            unable to enter a number with a negative exponent [e.g. 1.1 e-10] !), they
            should fund the shift to OSX as penance.

            But it ain't going to happen. Ron has my 50 dollars (or whatever) for the
            windows version and I am glad to have this product on my NT machine at work
            as a reminder of what software should be like.

            All the best

            MIchael

            On 15/5/03 7:49 pm, "david craig" <dac@...> wrote:

            >
            > Would all those who emailed me in response to my original note mind
            > re-sending your messages? I stupidly assumed that they were all cc'ed
            > to the digest, which they apparently were not.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > David Craig
            >
            >
            > <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > GraphingCalcUsers-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Dave and Jocelyn Corstorphan
            OS X allows for the running of Mac OS 9, and as some of the games I have (oops...I should be working), have not migrated to OS X. For that reason, there will
            Message 5 of 13 , May 15, 2003
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              OS X allows for the running of Mac OS 9, and as some of the games I
              have (oops...I should be working), have not migrated to OS X. For that
              reason, there will always be a little corner of my hard drive
              (partition) that is forever OS 9.

              Ironically, most of the drivers to connect my Powerbook to the internet
              via the cellular phone network all run only on OS 9. Additionally, my
              satellite phone only supports OS 9.

              OS X does allow for concurrent operation of up to eleven different
              operating systems at once...although I have only pushed it as far as
              four. But it is still a dilemma...I know.

              In regard to the comment about the 'crappy' Apple calculator, I
              personally prefer 'RPN', available as shareware on Jaguar downloads. It
              is only about $9 or $10 and it is great, but then I always have been a
              sucker for reverse Polish notation.

              Cheers

              Dave
            • Brian Ferguson
              Greetings ... -- Although new Macs from January 2003 will not allow either booting by OS 9.2.x, or any other System earlier than this, it is my interpretation
              Message 6 of 13 , May 17, 2003
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                Greetings

                On May 16 2003, david craig <dac@...> wrote:

                >
                >On Sat, 17 May 2003, Dave and Jocelyn Corstorphan wrote:
                >> Sorry to hear that your ITS department refuse to run other systems.
                >
                >Well, right now it's at the stage of a debate. They don't want the
                >hassle is supporting Classic alongside OS X. We are attempting to make
                >the case otherwise.
                >
                >David Craig
                --

                Although new Macs from January 2003 will not allow either booting by OS 9.2.x, or any other System earlier than this, it is my interpretation of the policy that the Classic Environment will continue to be available for some time.

                In writing this I thought perhaps I should at least make use of the heavyweight manual on OS X; no, not the few pages from apple but David Pogue's "Mac OS X, Second Edition - The Missing Manual". Oh boy, is it good or what? It is beautifully written but there's a lot of it.

                Chapter 5 "Back to OS 9" pp. 149-169 has, in my opinion, a great explanation of what Classic is all about. And the bit I had no idea about was this on p. 150 when discussing the Two Roads to OS 9.

                --- 1 ---
                * Run Classic. The Program called Classic is one of the crowning achievements of Mac OS X. You can think of it as a Mac OS 9 simulator or emulator. It runs automatically whenever you double-click the icon of a pre-Mac OS X program. * plus some more.

                --- 2 ---
                * Restart the Mac in Mac OS 9. Unfortunately, Classic is only a simulator. It isn't your operating system at the time - it isn't actually controlling your Mac. (Mac OS X continues to run beaneath it.)
                Whenever a certain program "reaches for" a particular piece of circuitry on your Mac, such as the FireWire or USB jack, it comes up empty handed. That's why many scanners. digitizing tablets, and even printers don't work when you run programs in the Classic mode.

                .... Pogue then adds comments on starting/booting in OS 9 if you have older Macs and where to get Mac OS 9 if you do not have it.
                --

                He then explains about using Classic and how to set-up a System Folder for it; which Extensions, Control Panels, etc are required.

                This is the sort of information which would be of interest to IT managers in that there must be a minimum set of system items which would be essential for running Graphing Calculator. Pogue does give a list:-

                Control Panels - General; Startup Disk.
                Extensions - Apple Guide; CarbonLib; Classic RAVE; Open Transport; Open Transport ASLM Modules.
                Loose in the System Folder - Classic Support; Classic Support UI; ProxyApp.
                --

                There is a lot more. The book has 713 pages, costs USD29.95. [It's AUD65 here but worth every cent - ((-: ] The Second Edition for OS X 10.2+ is essential. There is an earlier version.
                --------

                Maybe Ron could confirm this set and add anything else? Hope this starts something even if only to get IT managers thinking laterally outside their circle.

                Good luck
                brianF

                ---------------------------------------
                Best Wishes from Brian Ferguson
                ---------------------------------------
                Mac OS X 10.2.6 - Nisus Email X 1.6.1
                ---------------------------------------
              • Larry Smith
                ... The two new lower-end eMacs _still_ can boot into OS 9 and they were just released a few weeks ago. Larry
                Message 7 of 13 , May 17, 2003
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                  At 12:01 AM +1000 5/18/03, Brian Ferguson wrote:

                  >Although new Macs from January 2003 will not allow either booting by OS
                  >9.2.x, or any other System earlier than this, it is my interpretation of
                  >the policy that the Classic Environment will continue to be available for
                  >some time.


                  The two new lower-end eMacs _still_ can boot into OS 9 and they were just
                  released a few weeks ago.

                  Larry
                • david craig
                  ... Yes, Apple would have to have run a collective crack-smoking bender to do otherwise. However, ITS *DOES NOT WANT A WORKING CLASSIC SYSTEM FOLDER ON THEIR
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 18, 2003
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                    > Although new Macs from January 2003 will not allow either booting by
                    > OS 9.2.x, or any other System earlier than this, it is my
                    > interpretation of the policy that the Classic Environment will
                    > continue to be available for some time.

                    Yes, Apple would have to have run a collective crack-smoking bender to
                    do otherwise. However, ITS *DOES NOT WANT A WORKING CLASSIC SYSTEM
                    FOLDER ON THEIR MAC OS X DISK IMAGES*. (Certainly not in student labs,
                    a discussion that is already over, and not even on the machines in the
                    lecture hall lecterns, the current point of debate.)

                    It's not an Apple/OS X issue. It's that ITS feels that it will be too
                    much of a hassle for them to support.

                    David Craig


                    <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
                  • Michael de Podesta
                    David Craig Your problem is with your IT support folk. I sympathise. And if Ron Avitzur and whats left of the GC team could provide an OSX version I m sure
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 18, 2003
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                      David Craig

                      Your problem is with your IT support folk. I sympathise. And if Ron Avitzur
                      and whats left of the GC team could provide an OSX version I'm sure they
                      would. Instead he has provided a product that works well in Classic and is
                      available for Windows machines. Your poor IT 'support' is not his problem.
                      If your IT people remove Classic then I don't think they can really be
                      described as 'supporting' Mac OS.

                      On 18/5/03 3:37 pm, "david craig" <dac@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >> Although new Macs from January 2003 will not allow either booting by
                      >> OS 9.2.x, or any other System earlier than this, it is my
                      >> interpretation of the policy that the Classic Environment will
                      >> continue to be available for some time.
                      >
                      > Yes, Apple would have to have run a collective crack-smoking bender to
                      > do otherwise. However, ITS *DOES NOT WANT A WORKING CLASSIC SYSTEM
                      > FOLDER ON THEIR MAC OS X DISK IMAGES*. (Certainly not in student labs,
                      > a discussion that is already over, and not even on the machines in the
                      > lecture hall lecterns, the current point of debate.)
                      >
                      > It's not an Apple/OS X issue. It's that ITS feels that it will be too
                      > much of a hassle for them to support.
                      >
                      > David Craig
                      >
                      >
                      > <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > GraphingCalcUsers-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • david craig
                      Michael- ... I never said it was. A couple of related but nonetheless independent issues are getting muddled here. The first issue is the existence of a Mac
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 19, 2003
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                        Michael-

                        On Sun, 18 May 2003, Michael de Podesta wrote:
                        > Your problem is with your IT support folk.... Your poor IT 'support'
                        > is not his problem.

                        I never said it was.

                        A couple of related but nonetheless independent issues are getting
                        muddled here. The first issue is the existence of a Mac OS X version of
                        GC. Ron has made it clear that is unlikely to happen any time soon, if
                        ever. While I completely understand the position he's in, I see no
                        particular reason to pretend to be HAPPY about the Macintosh platform
                        losing such an exceptionally useful application. In my current
                        situation, the transition to OS X just happens to be forcing the issue
                        of continued support for GC, which brings me to...

                        The second issue, which is GC's awkward hardware-keyed licensing scheme.
                        This is the deal-breaker, as it makes support a big pain in the neck.
                        This is true for both Macintosh and Windows boxes, and is in point of
                        fact the main source of the objection of our ITS folks to continued
                        support for GC, irrespective of separate discussions concerning support
                        for the Classic Mac OS. It is also the reason we never licensed GC in
                        our labs when I was in charge of the Math department's Mac labs at the
                        University of Minnesota, and instead just licensed a version for the
                        instructor. Having been in a similar position myself, I can't really
                        blame our ITS folks for being unhappy about the scheme. I was, too.

                        This is all getting a bit far afield. I brought it up in the first
                        place to emphasize the facts that (i) the licensing scheme, while
                        necessary to protect against piracy, does in fact also act in some cases
                        as an impediment to continued sales of and support for GC, and (ii) lack
                        of support for Mac OS X is indeed equivalent to dropping GC for the
                        Macintosh platform. The existence of Classic tempers but does not
                        fundamentally alter this fact. It is a matter of time only, contrary to
                        what is occasionally suggested.

                        I'm not BLAMING Ron for any of this, but OF COURSE I brought it up to
                        keep both of these issues on his mind.

                        In any event, everyone's minds seem to be long made up on all fronts, so
                        I'll quit badgering -- for now.

                        David Craig


                        <http://www.panix.com/~dac/>
                      • Tony65@aol.com
                        In a message dated 5/19/03 8:44:43 AM, dac@panix.com writes: ...calm down, on
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 19, 2003
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                          In a message dated 5/19/03 8:44:43 AM, dac@... writes:
                          << and (ii) lack of support for Mac OS X is indeed equivalent to dropping >>

                          ...calm down, on 5/6/03 Ron wrote "...We've been looking into making a native
                          OS X release. Moving to OpenGL was a large first step, but there are many
                          other issues we are still exploring and can not make any commitments yet..."
                          As I recall he had previously noted that changing to openGL was a major
                          issue, and lo here it is. Progress. Apple is up and windows is down in sales
                          so be happy there is still hope......
                        • RBriet@aol.com
                          In a message dated 5/14/03 2:24:53 PM, dac@panix.com writes: I second Dave s motion. I shared Dave s sentiment for years, but the final
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 25, 2003
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                            In a message dated 5/14/03 2:24:53 PM, dac@... writes:

                            << Mac histor >>

                            I second Dave's motion.

                            I shared Dave's sentiment for years, but the final decision is with Ron.
                            Recently, I made a presentation before a technically sophisticated
                            international audience. As an experiment, I avoided every symbolic equation, but instead
                            showed its graphical representation, using Ron's Graphing Calculator. You can
                            only imagine what the reaction from the floor was.

                            Richard.

                            PS.:
                            Ron, what I did was free advertising for your outstanding product. The
                            rest is up to you.
                          • Dave and Jocelyn Corstorphan
                            Ron, You may need to hurry along with the Carbonized version, as I see a freeware programme on the Apple site today, for a programme which does many similar
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 31, 2003
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                              Ron,

                              You may need to hurry along with the Carbonized version, as I see a
                              freeware programme on the Apple site today, for a programme which does
                              many similar things and more.

                              http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~s134159/cplot/

                              Dave
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