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Teleology?

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  • SteveW
    A question for the group: Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going? Steve
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 1, 2010
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      A question for the group:
      Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?
      Steve
    • rosiolady@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/1/2010 6:32:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eugnostos2000@yahoo.com writes: A question for the group: Does evolution have a teleological
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 1, 2010
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        In a message dated 12/1/2010 6:32:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
        eugnostos2000@... writes:

        A question for the group:
        Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?
        Steve




        The way I understand evolution, physical evolution at least, is that it
        occurs as circumstances change. The being that can best deal with the
        current circumstances is the one to live and those who can't die out. So based
        on that, I would see it not as something that is looking far into the
        future, to an end point, but only looking to best adapt to current circumstances.

        IMO, I can't think of any circumstance where evolution or the changing
        (evolving?) circumstances that trigger it, would stop.

        Rosalie


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • SteveW
        ... Steve
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 1, 2010
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          --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:
          >
          >
          > In a message dated 12/1/2010 6:32:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
          > eugnostos2000@... writes:
          >
          > A question for the group:
          > Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?
          > Steve
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The way I understand evolution, physical evolution at least, is that it
          > occurs as circumstances change. The being that can best deal with the
          > current circumstances is the one to live and those who can't die out. So based
          > on that, I would see it not as something that is looking far into the
          > future, to an end point, but only looking to best adapt to current circumstances.
          >
          > IMO, I can't think of any circumstance where evolution or the changing
          > (evolving?) circumstances that trigger it, would stop.
          >
          > Rosalie
          >
          > Hi Rosalie. The basic mechanisms for evolutionary change are natural selection by variation, mutation, sexual selection, group selection and epigenetics. Most people are familiar with the ideas of variation and mutation in regards to evolution. Sexual selection is based on the fact that females often have a huge say in who gets to mate with them, particularly in modern cultures in the west. Group selection is the controversial idea that traits that make for strength in numbers also allow individuals in those groups to have greater success in reproduction over individuals outside of those groups. Epigenetics is the relatively new study of how environmental influences determine which genes get switched on and which get switched off. The interesting thing about this is that there is now good evidence to show that experiences which parents have can effect epigenetic change to their genes which then get passed on to their offspring. It is, in effect, a sort of Lamarckianism. For example, Soldiers who experience tramatic stress on the battle-field have been shown to pass on an inherited tendancy for heightened anxiety levels in offspring sired after returning from war. Finally, there is what may be thought of as a very subtle teleology inherent in all of this, which is increasing complexity. Organisms tend to evolve in the direction of increasing complexity, not lesser complexity. Finally, there is the wild card of deliberate genetic engineering.
          Steve
          >
        • old bob
          I like RosioLady s overview because it lets me get my head around the thought. I like Steve s comments because it chops the question into pieces that can be
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 2, 2010
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            I like RosioLady's overview because it lets me get my head around the thought.
            I like Steve's comments because it chops the question into pieces that can be digested.

            The last factor in Steve's write-up mentioned the deliberate genetic engineering. From a broad perspective, perhaps genetic engineering is necessarily evolving for us as a defensive factor for our very survival at this time. That would fit the modal I have in my mind for evolution in general. Very thought provoking "thinker" topic. Thanks.

            old bob
            --.-


            --- On Wed, 12/1/10, SteveW <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:

            From: SteveW <eugnostos2000@...>
            Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: Teleology?
            To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 8:25 PM







             













            --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:

            >

            >

            > In a message dated 12/1/2010 6:32:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

            > eugnostos2000@... writes:

            >

            > A question for the group:

            > Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?

            > Steve

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > The way I understand evolution, physical evolution at least, is that it

            > occurs as circumstances change. The being that can best deal with the

            > current circumstances is the one to live and those who can't die out. So based

            > on that, I would see it not as something that is looking far into the

            > future, to an end point, but only looking to best adapt to current circumstances.

            >

            > IMO, I can't think of any circumstance where evolution or the changing

            > (evolving?) circumstances that trigger it, would stop.

            >

            > Rosalie

            >

            > Hi Rosalie. The basic mechanisms for evolutionary change are natural selection by variation, mutation, sexual selection, group selection and epigenetics. Most people are familiar with the ideas of variation and mutation in regards to evolution. Sexual selection is based on the fact that females often have a huge say in who gets to mate with them, particularly in modern cultures in the west. Group selection is the controversial idea that traits that make for strength in numbers also allow individuals in those groups to have greater success in reproduction over individuals outside of those groups. Epigenetics is the relatively new study of how environmental influences determine which genes get switched on and which get switched off. The interesting thing about this is that there is now good evidence to show that experiences which parents have can effect epigenetic change to their genes which then get passed on to their offspring. It is, in effect, a sort
            of Lamarckianism. For example, Soldiers who experience tramatic stress on the battle-field have been shown to pass on an inherited tendancy for heightened anxiety levels in offspring sired after returning from war. Finally, there is what may be thought of as a very subtle teleology inherent in all of this, which is increasing complexity. Organisms tend to evolve in the direction of increasing complexity, not lesser complexity. Finally, there is the wild card of deliberate genetic engineering.

            Steve

            >

























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rosiolady@aol.com
            In a message dated 12/1/2010 8:25:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eugnostos2000@yahoo.com writes: Hi Rosalie. The basic mechanisms for evolutionary change are
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 2, 2010
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              In a message dated 12/1/2010 8:25:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
              eugnostos2000@... writes:

              Hi Rosalie. The basic mechanisms for evolutionary change are natural
              selection by variation, mutation, sexual selection, group selection and
              epigenetics. Most people are familiar with the ideas of variation and mutation in
              regards to evolution. Sexual selection is based on the fact that females
              often have a huge say in who gets to mate with them, particularly in modern
              cultures in the west. Group selection is the controversial idea that traits
              that make for strength in numbers also allow individuals in those groups to
              have greater success in reproduction over individuals outside of those
              groups. Epigenetics is the relatively new study of how environmental influences
              determine which genes get switched on and which get switched off. The
              interesting thing about this is that there is now good evidence to show that
              experiences which parents have can effect epigenetic change to their genes
              which then get passed on to their offspring. It is, in effect, a sort of
              Lamarckianism. For
              example, Soldiers who experience tramatic stress on the battle-field have
              been shown to pass on an inherited tendancy for heightened anxiety levels in
              offspring sired after returning from war. Finally, there is what may be
              thought of as a very subtle teleology inherent in all of this, which is
              increasing complexity. Organisms tend to evolve in the direction of increasing
              complexity, not lesser complexity. Finally, there is the wild card of
              deliberate genetic engineering.
              Steve



              This is very interesting, but the bottom line is "change happens."
              Teleology, if I understand it correctly, means a process that has an end goal.
              If you take that to mean that at some point the process will stop, then no,
              I don't see how evolution can stop...and evolution, in whatever manner, is
              triggered by some kind of need for or advantage to change/mutation.

              Rosalie


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • cev2012
              Hi There Steve, Your question caught my attention, and I started to read on Wiki, but since I have a very short attention span, I had to stop after the first
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 2, 2010
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                Hi There Steve,

                Your question caught my attention, and I started to read on Wiki, but since I have a very short attention span, I had to stop after the first paragraph! I rely on the old standby. That for every "is" there is an "isn't". Because of that, since there is an end-point, there is not an end-point, and I just have to live with it.

                Christine


                --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > A question for the group:
                > Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?
                > Steve
                >
              • lordphoenix9thlvl@excite.com
                Hi Steve, I think will and preference may have a little to do with it as well. Especially with clever, stuborn short lived species such as birds and octopuses
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 2, 2010
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                  Hi Steve, I think will and preference may have a little to do with it as well. Especially with clever, stuborn short lived species such as birds and octopuses and such it might happen a little quicker. Prefereing a longer more curved bill to get that nectar from a favorite flower. Over time the stress and straining for such might encourage just that, or the higher spiritual self of the humming bird spirit might influence its redevelopment in another life. Infinite forces and potentials and intelligences could play a hand in any given change or evolution. Mother nature, God, Gods, and ourselves definately don't seem content to leave the status quo alone. I think intelligent redesign also happens.

                  --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > In a message dated 12/1/2010 6:32:23 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                  > > eugnostos2000@ writes:
                  > >
                  > > A question for the group:
                  > > Does evolution have a teleological end-point, and if so, where is it going?
                  > > Steve
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The way I understand evolution, physical evolution at least, is that it
                  > > occurs as circumstances change. The being that can best deal with the
                  > > current circumstances is the one to live and those who can't die out. So based
                  > > on that, I would see it not as something that is looking far into the
                  > > future, to an end point, but only looking to best adapt to current circumstances.
                  > >
                  > > IMO, I can't think of any circumstance where evolution or the changing
                  > > (evolving?) circumstances that trigger it, would stop.
                  > >
                  > > Rosalie
                  > >
                  > > Hi Rosalie. The basic mechanisms for evolutionary change are natural selection by variation, mutation, sexual selection, group selection and epigenetics. Most people are familiar with the ideas of variation and mutation in regards to evolution. Sexual selection is based on the fact that females often have a huge say in who gets to mate with them, particularly in modern cultures in the west. Group selection is the controversial idea that traits that make for strength in numbers also allow individuals in those groups to have greater success in reproduction over individuals outside of those groups. Epigenetics is the relatively new study of how environmental influences determine which genes get switched on and which get switched off. The interesting thing about this is that there is now good evidence to show that experiences which parents have can effect epigenetic change to their genes which then get passed on to their offspring. It is, in effect, a sort of Lamarckianism. For example, Soldiers who experience tramatic stress on the battle-field have been shown to pass on an inherited tendancy for heightened anxiety levels in offspring sired after returning from war. Finally, there is what may be thought of as a very subtle teleology inherent in all of this, which is increasing complexity. Organisms tend to evolve in the direction of increasing complexity, not lesser complexity. Finally, there is the wild card of deliberate genetic engineering.
                  > Steve
                  > >
                  >
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