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Re: [GnosticThought] Re: Fw: Fwd: Transmigration of Souls

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  • GeorgeHarvey2621@cs.com
    In a message dated 10/31/01 9:34:51 PM Central Standard Time, ... Hi Dave, I think it is we who judges ourselves. In fact I believe an important lesson is for
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 2001
      In a message dated 10/31/01 9:34:51 PM Central Standard Time,
      davidmiller540@... writes:

      >
      > Why is it that we can easily accept the unconditional love of a pet,
      > yet see the "Invisible Spirit" as judgemental? How about the idea
      > that is it US who judge us, It is WE who decide if we "passed or
      > failed" a particular lesson. True we can join into one soul, which
      > makes the phrase "E PLURIBUS UNIM" so attractive. Yet each soul, or
      > spark is of the devine and an entity onto itself, we never loose our
      > personality, just the negativity.
      > It is in loosing the negativity that I bring up this whole issue, and
      > (forgive me) disagree with the judging part. No one on this Earth
      > will ever judge me as harshly as I do, I know me better than any
      > human can, and The Devine "invisible Spirit" is, as the lords prayer
      > says in the beginning "OUR FATHER".
      > It is my belief that we are all held in esteem for having come here
      > in the first place.
      >
      > Thanks for your time and patience
      >
      > Blessing to you all
      >
      > Dave
      >

      Hi Dave,
      I think it is we who judges ourselves. In fact I believe an important lesson
      is for us to learn is to quit judging ourselves.

      I also agree that we are part of the All, we will merge back into the All
      consciousness, but we will retain our individual identities. This I remember
      from my contact with the Gnosis and I believe it is a true memory.

      George
    • thomas@thomasdavidson.net
      David, you say: Why is it that we can easily accept the unconditional love of a pet, yet see the Invisible Spirit as that is it US who judge us, It is WE who
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 1, 2001
        David, you say:
        Why is it that we can easily accept the unconditional love of a
        pet, yet see the "Invisible Spirit" as that is it US who judge
        us, It is WE who decide if we "passed or failed" a particular
        lesson.

        Dear David -

        As a Celt by blood (Scots/Irish) although English by education,
        may I say how much your words resounded with me.

        'Give us the boy,' the Jesuits used to say (and probably still
        do) 'and we'll give you the man,' locked and loaded with guilt,
        self-doubt, uncertainty and fear, certain only of their state
        of sin.

        I have found my faith (although not 'born again') in the
        Divine Love and Light, and whereas I consciously try to keep my
        posts somewhat objective and impersonal, they are underwritten
        (to me at least) with a devotion to my tradition that is a mere
        shadow of the devotion the Father of my tradition holds for me.

        Were it otherwise I might all too easily slip into a Celtic
        sentimentality, and I reserve my passion for my friends, and my
        rage for those who perpetuate an injustice (dare one say a
        perversion) against the tradition of my blood, especially those
        who are entrusted with its keep and its continuance.

        As my mother often says, walking away from mass on a Sunday,
        "Why doesn't he just say God loves us?" To her such is a truth
        she knows with a depth and certitude I find enviable.

        So while I continue in my metaphysical labour with a lightness
        of heart, I look forward to the day when I can rest from my
        labours, secure in the knowing that I love and am loved in
        return; my feet up before a roaring log fire, a glass of
        Bushmills Black Label in my hand, and a pair of Irish
        Wolfhounds dozing at my feet.

        Thanks again for the reminder and the inspiration,

        Thomas
      • joemendoza21@hotmail.com
        ... important lesson ... the All ... remember ... Hi George, The problem with judging is the problem of who is doing the judging. Judging should be done from
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 1, 2001
          --- In GnosticThought@y..., GeorgeHarvey2621@c... wrote:

          > Hi Dave,
          > I think it is we who judges ourselves. In fact I believe an
          important lesson
          > is for us to learn is to quit judging ourselves.
          >
          > I also agree that we are part of the All, we will merge back into
          the All
          > consciousness, but we will retain our individual identities. This I
          remember
          > from my contact with the Gnosis and I believe it is a true memory.
          >
          > George

          Hi George,

          The problem with judging is the problem of who is doing the judging.
          Judging should be done from the spirit and not from the soul. The
          Soul is interested in good and evil, right and wrong, and justice.
          The spirit has only the one law of love. For correct judging to take
          place, the soul must place itself under the one law of the spirit.

          -Joe
        • davidmiller540@aol.com
          ... Thank you, you honor me. I like the picture you paint, sounds like a great peace to be in. I am American, the living defintion of an American. My ancestory
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 1, 2001
            --- In GnosticThought@y..., thomas@t... wrote:

            > So while I continue in my metaphysical labour with a lightness
            > of heart, I look forward to the day when I can rest from my
            > labours, secure in the knowing that I love and am loved in
            > return; my feet up before a roaring log fire, a glass of
            > Bushmills Black Label in my hand, and a pair of Irish
            > Wolfhounds dozing at my feet.
            >
            > Thanks again for the reminder and the inspiration,
            >
            > Thomas

            Thank you, you honor me.

            I like the picture you paint, sounds like a great peace to be in.

            I am American, the living defintion of an American. My ancestory is
            of German, French, Swedish, and Potowatomi (A native American tribe
            from the great lakes region). The native American flute and the drums
            are a sound that reaches into my soul. I also love a good Celtic
            fiddle, have a couple of tapes, so I believe that if you get a chance
            to hear some native American flute, it may reach out to you as well.

            Being of such a heritage meant dealing with the concept that people
            from my dads side of the tree, subjugated people from my mothers
            side. I had a lot of lessons to learn to get past that thought, and
            in so doing found myself. I learned to take the best of both worlds
            and learn to deal with the least of either. So the mention of passion
            and rage are not lost on me, check the character types listed and
            you'll see people tpyically associated with some strong feelings.

            It is also interesting that we always mention passion and rage
            together, for where would rage be if we were not passionate? Both
            sides of the same coin as I see it.

            So my friend, and friends, thanks for the possitive response, I
            apprecaite it. I love a good arguement but it is good, no, GREAT to
            know we help each other along and give strength while at the same
            time testing our beliefs and checking our resolve.

            Blessings to you and yours

            Dave
          • Gnosijoe@aol.com
            Hi Joe I have not come across the concept that the soul is a different entity to the spirit in the context you use. Perhaps someone could point me in the
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 3, 2001
              Hi Joe
              I have not come across the concept that the soul is a different entity to the
              spirit in the context you use.
              Perhaps someone could point me in the direction of a little more reading on
              this.
              Please. Thanks


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • joemendoza21@hotmail.com
              ... entity to the ... reading on ... Hi Gnosijoe, (What follows is basically the same post that I have recently posted on several other lists, so I appologize
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 3, 2001
                --- In GnosticThought@y..., Gnosijoe@a... wrote:
                > Hi Joe
                > I have not come across the concept that the soul is a different
                entity to the
                > spirit in the context you use.
                > Perhaps someone could point me in the direction of a little more
                reading on
                > this.
                > Please. Thanks
                >

                Hi Gnosijoe,

                (What follows is basically the same post that I have recently posted
                on several other lists, so I appologize to anybody who's already read
                it for the cross-posting, but it is pertinent to the subject matter of
                this list, and it does directly answer the question asked).

                Words are weird things. Especially words like soul and spirit, words
                that describe things which aren't all that apparent. You can't see a
                soul, so how can you know if it's really there (you might believe it's
                there, but simple belief doesn't count for anything). When I use a
                word like soul I can never tell if the person I'm having a
                conversation with is speaking about the same 'soul' as I'm speaking
                about.

                Lately I've become interested in the Valentinian system. One problem
                with the Valentinian system is that most of what we know about it
                comes from people who were opposed to Valentinus (the second
                century Gnostic) and so presented his system in a harsh light.

                According to his detractors, Valentinus divided mankind into three
                kinds of people, the Hylics (slaves who had no souls), Psychics
                (people who had souls) and Pneumatics (people who had spirit).
                Psychic is from the Greek for Soul, Pneumatic is from the Greek for
                spirit (or breath), Hylic is from the Greek for matter (or wood).
                According to this system spirit was better than soul.

                When I first read about this system I didn't like it. First because I
                thought it was elitist, who was Valentinus to say that some people
                didn't have souls. And secondly because I had trouble distinguishing
                between soul and spirit. In our culture soul and spirit are usually
                used as interchangeably with neither being very well defined.

                However Valentinus' system of Hylics, Psychics and Pneumatics fell
                into place when I realized that he wasn't talking about external
                people, but was talking about internal aspects of each of us. Each of
                us consists of Hylics, Psychics and Pneumatics.

                Hylics, Psychics, and Pneumatics

                This is not just a description of what exists outside of us, all three
                also exist inside of us. The Hylics and the psychics are the many
                little 'I's' which compete for power within ourselves.

                The Hylics are the 'natural' parts of our selves. They are the
                natural man (or woman). There is nothing wrong with the Hylics (most
                of the time), they are not necessarily evil or immoral, they are
                amoral. The Hylics are genetically programmed aspects of each of us.
                The Hylics respond to external stimuli, to Hunger, to heat and cold,
                to sexual attraction; to all genetically programmed responses.

                The Psychics are our moral selves. They keep the Hylics in line. The
                Psychics are the 'social' parts of our selves; they allow us to live
                in society. Laws, rules, and regulations apply to Psychics. The
                Psychics (or souls) are the social; the societal programmed aspects in
                each of us. Our soul is our morality; it allows us to function inside
                of society. The soul is interested in matters of good and evil, right
                and wrong. The soul rules over the Hylic, it keeps it in line. The
                soul keeps the Hylic from acting on any impulse it might happen to
                have. People with very weak souls, or malfunctioning souls are
                sociopaths (or sometimes psychopaths). But people with
                over-functioning souls are the fundamentalist, the people for whom
                'law has become all-important, for these people obey a law becomes the
                same as being good. What the law is doesn't matter, the fact that it
                is a law (especially if it is a 'God ordained' law) is all that
                counts. The soul can become a tyrant.

                Now spirit is something completely different. Everybody has both the
                Hylic and the Psychic (the body and soul), even the sociopaths and
                fundamentalist. However the spirit, the pneuma, seems to be asleep in
                most of us most of the time. I think everybody has spirit, but most
                people never realize it. The soul is interested in good and evil, but
                the spirit isn't. The Pneumatic (spirit) is our true selves. The
                pneumatic is that part of our self that is beyond the natural or the
                social. The Hylics and the Psychics are plural; the Pneumatic is
                singular.

                Different people tend to center themselves around different 'I's'.
                Some people spend most of their time among the Hylics; some people
                spend most of their time among the psychics; and a very few center
                themselves in the Pneumatic.

                Most often the Pneumatic is asleep. I do not know why this is so. I
                do not know if this is the way we are born, or if the Pneumatic falls
                asleep in early childhood.

                In Genesis we learn that God put Adam to sleep. It is important to
                note that although we are told that God put Adam to sleep, we are
                never told that God woke Adam up. After being put to sleep Adam is
                divided (Adam becomes Adam and Eve). Adam (and Eve) eats from the
                tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. This Tree represents the law.
                It is morality. It represents our societal conditioning.

                The Hylic recognizes no law.
                The Psychic recognizes a million and one laws.
                The spirit only recognizes the law of love. As Jesus said "'Love the
                Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
                your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the
                second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' (Matthew
                22:37-39). Of course this is something of a paradox (just like that
                damn one hand that keeps clapping) how can love be commanded? Either
                love is there or it's not.

                When the Spirit awakens the Body and Soul still remain, the Spirit
                doesn't supplant the Body or the Soul. The soul is still interested
                in good and evil, and right and wrong, but know instead of looking to
                outside laws authority to find out what these are, it looks to the
                Spirit to inform it, and the Spirit acts though it's one law of love.

                -Joe
              • Gnosijoe@aol.com
                Many thanks Joe for your missive on Soul/Spirit. I am still hung up on the concept that i have a soul, and that the soul is spirit. However this may well
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 4, 2001
                  Many thanks Joe for your missive on Soul/Spirit.
                  I am still "hung up" on the concept that i have a soul, and that the soul is
                  spirit. However this may well be emotion, ego or worse!
                  I have taken a print of your E-mail and will re read it at leisure and see
                  whether I can gain some better understanding in time.
                  Again many thanks.
                  Gnosijoe



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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