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RE: [GnosticThought] Re: This makes no sense to me

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  • George Harvey
    ... As I said, that works too. One of the things about these myths is they are sort of like Zen stories. Everyone doesn t have to get the same message. You get
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 31, 2005
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      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: msnyder13@...
      > Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:13:58 -0000
      > To: gnosticthought@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: This makes no sense to me
      >
      > Thanks for your insight George. I think we're on the same page with
      > regards to interpretation. It seems evident that diminished is a more
      > fitting term than want and two different types of fullness and
      > dimunition are being explained.

      As I said, that works too.
      One of the things about these myths is they are sort of like Zen stories. Everyone doesn't have to get the same message. You get what is right for you.

      My interpretation is slightly different than yours. Mine is more like no matter how full you are there is always room for Jello and there is always more Jello.

      George
    • Brian Joseph
      ... Hi Tom, After reading the initial post I thought of going over it line by line as you have. Then while reading the replies I see that you already have. I
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 31, 2005
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        --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, Tom Ragland <gnostictom@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > see my delirious comments in parentheses...
        >
        > --- msnyder65 <msnyder13@s...> wrote:
        >
        > > I've read this over and over and it still makes no
        > > sense. I think
        > > whoever wrote this was a little delirious at the
        > > time.
        > >
        > > From the Apocryphon of James:
        > >
        > Lo, three times you have told us, 'Become full';
        > (full of direct spiritual gnosis)
        > > but we are full."
        > (intellectually understanding)
        >
        >
        > > The Savior answered and said, "For this cause I have
        > > said to
        > > you, 'Become full,' that you may not be in want.
        > (full of direct spiritual gnosis
        > makes the lack of intellectual understanding
        > meaningless)
        > > They who are in want,
        > > however, will not be saved.
        > (without direct spiritual gnosis, there is no
        > way of spiritually resurrecting)
        > For it is good to be
        > > full, and bad to be in
        > > want.
        > (spiritually it is better to be filled with
        > experience and bad not not have experiences)
        > Hence, just as it is good that you be in want
        > > and, conversely,
        > > bad that you be full,
        > (intellectually if you think you know it all and
        > have it all, you won't seek the experiences needed
        > to save you)
        > >so he who is full is in want,
        > (those who know it all cannot be taught how to
        > experience what they need to learn from)
        > > and he who is in
        > > want does not become full as he who is in want
        > > becomes full,
        > (it is not a filling up of intellectual agreements,
        > as if reciting dogmatic creeds was the answer,
        > but it is a filling of mystical experiences)
        > and he who
        > > has been filled, in turn attains due perfection.
        > (spiritual experiences fill up the spirit to
        > resurrect it to perfection)
        > > Therefore, you must be
        > > in want while it is possible to fill you,
        > (be spiritually starving for experiences to
        > fill your consciousness)
        > and be
        > > full while it is
        > > possible for you to be in want,
        > (fill youself with the experiences that the
        > intellectuals are starving themselves of)
        > so that you may be
        > > able to fill
        > > yourselves the more.
        > (the more you experience, the more open you
        > become to more experiences)
        > Hence, become full of the
        > > Spirit, but be in want
        > > of reason, for reason <belongs to> the soul; in
        > > turn, it is (of the
        > > nature of) soul."
        > >
        > (the experiences of the Spirit (Pneuma) are not
        > understood by the soul (psyche) since they are
        > beyond rational thought and dogmatic assertions)
        >
        >
        > De omnibus dubitandum: One Must Doubt Everything
        > ================================================
        > -- "Gnostic Tom" / Tom Ragland --

        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        Hi Tom,
        After reading the initial post I thought of going over it line by
        line as you have. Then while reading the replies I see that you
        already have. I think that you did a very good job of
        explaining/intuiting this.
        Brian
      • JennyG
        ... After reading the initial post I thought of going over it line by line as you have. Then while reading the replies I see that you already have. I think
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 1, 2005
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          >>Hi Tom,
          After reading the initial post I thought of going over it line by
          line as you have. Then while reading the replies I see that you
          already have. I think that you did a very good job of
          explaining/intuiting this.
          Brian <<


          God knows I love this little corner of cyberspace.
          many thanks.

          Jen
        • George Harvey
          ... Hi Tom, Thanks. I thought about going through and substituting the words Gnosis, spirit, soul, Sophia, etc. in various combinations to see what meanings
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 1, 2005
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gnostictom@...
            > Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:51:41 -0800 (PST)
            > To: gnosticthought@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [GnosticThought] This makes no sense to me
            >
            > see my delirious comments in parentheses...
            >
            > --- msnyder65 <msnyder13@...> wrote:
            >
            >> I've read this over and over and it still makes no
            >> sense. I think
            >> whoever wrote this was a little delirious at the
            >> time.
            >>
            >> From the Apocryphon of James:
            >>
            > Lo, three times you have told us, 'Become full';
            > (full of direct spiritual gnosis)
            >> but we are full."
            > (intellectually understanding)
            >
            >
            >> The Savior answered and said, "For this cause I have
            >> said to
            >> you, 'Become full,' that you may not be in want.
            > (full of direct spiritual gnosis
            > makes the lack of intellectual understanding
            > meaningless)
            >> They who are in want,
            >> however, will not be saved.
            > (without direct spiritual gnosis, there is no
            > way of spiritually resurrecting)
            > For it is good to be
            >> full, and bad to be in
            >> want.
            > (spiritually it is better to be filled with
            > experience and bad not not have experiences)
            > Hence, just as it is good that you be in want
            >> and, conversely,
            >> bad that you be full,
            > (intellectually if you think you know it all and
            > have it all, you won't seek the experiences needed
            > to save you)
            > >so he who is full is in want,
            > (those who know it all cannot be taught how to
            > experience what they need to learn from)
            >> and he who is in
            >> want does not become full as he who is in want
            >> becomes full,
            > (it is not a filling up of intellectual agreements,
            > as if reciting dogmatic creeds was the answer,
            > but it is a filling of mystical experiences)
            > and he who
            >> has been filled, in turn attains due perfection.
            > (spiritual experiences fill up the spirit to
            > resurrect it to perfection)
            >> Therefore, you must be
            >> in want while it is possible to fill you,
            > (be spiritually starving for experiences to
            > fill your consciousness)
            > and be
            >> full while it is
            >> possible for you to be in want,
            > (fill youself with the experiences that the
            > intellectuals are starving themselves of)
            > so that you may be
            >> able to fill
            >> yourselves the more.
            > (the more you experience, the more open you
            > become to more experiences)
            > Hence, become full of the
            >> Spirit, but be in want
            >> of reason, for reason <belongs to> the soul; in
            >> turn, it is (of the
            >> nature of) soul."
            >>
            > (the experiences of the Spirit (Pneuma) are not
            > understood by the soul (psyche) since they are
            > beyond rational thought and dogmatic assertions)
            >
            >
            > De omnibus dubitandum: One Must Doubt Everything
            > ================================================
            > -- "Gnostic Tom" / Tom Ragland --
            > http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
            > --==>Noble Eightfold Path of Christ<==--
            > --==>Buddha Turns the Kabbalah Wheel<==--
            > ================================================

            Hi Tom,
            Thanks.
            I thought about going through and substituting the words Gnosis, spirit, soul, Sophia, etc. in various combinations to see what meanings popped out. I didn't have the time so I just gave my gut reaction.

            George

            George
          • Brian Joseph
            ... with ... more ... stories. Everyone doesn t have to get the same message. You get what is right for you. ... like no matter how full you are there is
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 3, 2005
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              --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, George Harvey
              <georgeharvey@i...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: msnyder13@s...
              > > Sent: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:13:58 -0000
              > > To: gnosticthought@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: This makes no sense to me
              > >
              > > Thanks for your insight George. I think we're on the same page
              with
              > > regards to interpretation. It seems evident that diminished is a
              more
              > > fitting term than want and two different types of fullness and
              > > dimunition are being explained.
              >
              > As I said, that works too.
              > One of the things about these myths is they are sort of like Zen
              stories. Everyone doesn't have to get the same message. You get what
              is right for you.
              >
              > My interpretation is slightly different than yours. Mine is more
              like no matter how full you are there is always room for Jello and
              there is always more Jello.
              >
              > George
              >
              Hi George,
              I agree. I think that one can get different levels at different
              times. It is amazing that we can sometimes look at something that we
              have read over and over again and then look at it and understand it
              in a different way that often seems like it should have been obvious
              the first time.These are aha moments.
              Brian
            • Tom Ragland
              ... you keep thinking now I ve finally got it and you consider yourself done, you ve just had an epiphany of the latest ah ha moment and for an instance it
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 4, 2005
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                --- George Harvey <georgeharvey@...> wrote:
                >
                > My interpretation is slightly different than yours.
                > Mine is more like no matter how full you are there
                > is always room for Jello and there is always more
                > Jello.
                >
                > George
                >

                you keep thinking
                "now I've finally got it"
                and you consider yourself done,
                you've just had an epiphany of
                the latest "ah ha" moment
                and for an instance it is all clear
                and all makes sense

                i saw a science class demonstration once
                where the professor filled a glass with
                big rocks
                was the glass full? yes.
                then he took little pebbles and added them
                to the glass with the big rocks
                was the glass now full? yes.
                then he took sand and added it to the glass
                with the big rocks and little pepples
                was the glass now full? yes.
                he then took water and poured it into
                the glass with the big rocks and little
                pebbles and sand
                was the glass now full? yes.
                he emptied the wet sand and big rocks
                and pebbles from the glass and held it up
                was the glass now full?
                yes, full of nitrogen and oxygen and
                carbon dioxide.



                De omnibus dubitandum: One Must Doubt Everything
                ================================================
                -- "Gnostic Tom" / Tom Ragland --
                http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
                --==>Noble Eightfold Path of Christ<==--
                --==>Buddha Turns the Kabbalah Wheel<==--
                ================================================



                __________________________________
                Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
                http://farechase.yahoo.com
              • George Harvey
                ... Hi Tom, Exactly. That is why I say I don t have faith or dogma. I have beliefs which are my best guesses at this time and are subject to change as I gain
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gnostictom@...
                  > Sent: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 05:05:01 -0800 (PST)
                  > To: gnosticthought@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [GnosticThought] Re: This makes no sense to me
                  >
                  > --- George Harvey <georgeharvey@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> My interpretation is slightly different than yours.
                  >> Mine is more like no matter how full you are there
                  >> is always room for Jello and there is always more
                  >> Jello.
                  >>
                  >> George
                  >>
                  >
                  > you keep thinking
                  > "now I've finally got it"
                  > and you consider yourself done,
                  > you've just had an epiphany of
                  > the latest "ah ha" moment
                  > and for an instance it is all clear
                  > and all makes sense
                  >
                  > i saw a science class demonstration once
                  > where the professor filled a glass with
                  > big rocks
                  > was the glass full? yes.
                  > then he took little pebbles and added them
                  > to the glass with the big rocks
                  > was the glass now full? yes.
                  > then he took sand and added it to the glass
                  > with the big rocks and little pepples
                  > was the glass now full? yes.
                  > he then took water and poured it into
                  > the glass with the big rocks and little
                  > pebbles and sand
                  > was the glass now full? yes.
                  > he emptied the wet sand and big rocks
                  > and pebbles from the glass and held it up
                  > was the glass now full?
                  > yes, full of nitrogen and oxygen and
                  > carbon dioxide.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > De omnibus dubitandum: One Must Doubt Everything
                  > ================================================
                  > -- "Gnostic Tom" / Tom Ragland --
                  > http://www.geocities.com/gnostictom/
                  > --==>Noble Eightfold Path of Christ<==--
                  > --==>Buddha Turns the Kabbalah Wheel<==--

                  Hi Tom,
                  Exactly.
                  That is why I say I don't have faith or dogma. I have beliefs which are my best guesses at this time and are subject to change as I gain new information.

                  George
                • George Harvey
                  ... Hi Brian, Exactly. The first time I read Gnostic myths they looked like complete nonsense to me. George
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 4, 2005
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                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: giftofgabe@...
                    > Sent: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 01:33:20 -0000
                    > To: gnosticthought@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: This makes no sense to me
                    >>
                    > Hi George,
                    > I agree. I think that one can get different levels at different
                    > times. It is amazing that we can sometimes look at something that we
                    > have read over and over again and then look at it and understand it
                    > in a different way that often seems like it should have been obvious
                    > the first time.These are aha moments.
                    > Brian

                    Hi Brian,
                    Exactly. The first time I read Gnostic myths they looked like complete nonsense to me.

                    George
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