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Re: sin

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  • Merlin8364@xx.xxx
    In a message dated 11/4/99 7:46:02 AM Central Standard Time, ... If you keep screaming BAD DOG at your little dog, what happens? You end up with a dog who
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 9, 1999
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      In a message dated 11/4/99 7:46:02 AM Central Standard Time,
      Merlin8364@... writes:

      > >
      > > The human part of you is not sinning when it does human animal things
      > > anymore
      > > than the dog or cat are sinning when they do dog animal or cat animal
      > things.
      >
      > Do not be mean to your little human animal. It can't help wanting to do
      > human things any more than the dog can help wanting to do dog things.

      If you keep screaming "BAD DOG" at your little dog, what happens? You end up
      with a dog who thinks she is a bad dog.

      If you keep screaming "Sinner" at yourself, what happens? You end up
      thinking you are a sin and because you think you know what that means, you do
      things you think are sins and feel guilty for it. Your only sin was calling
      yourself a sinner.

      Love, Light and Peace,
      Merlin
    • Tom Urash
      Sin, IMO, is just one of many symbols in the societal set of game rules; it s virtually meaningless outside of those game rules. We can t measure it or
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 12, 2009
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        Sin, IMO, is just one of many symbols in the societal set of game
        rules; it's virtually meaningless outside of those game rules. We
        can't measure it or touch it or taste it or test it to see who knows
        the "real" meaning outside of somebody's or some community's
        game rules (the various Xian, Buddhist, Muslim communities as
        well as cities, states, nation's, etc.). It's personal, conceptual and
        internal. For most of us, I suppose, if we had to give an answer, we
        might say something similar to the Supreme Court judge in
        regards to what "is" or "isn't" obscene: "I don't know how to define
        it, but I know what it is when I see it." And the gist of that case was
        you have to allow each community to set it own standards. That's
        about as realistic and functional as you can get. The rebel and the
        "sinner" may not like it but everything else is more or less
        pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Until the vast majority of human beings
        have advanced way past our domesticated primate tendencies,
        there will be standards and laws and enforcement and confusion
        and mistakes.....and the beat goes on.

        I consider myself relatively sane and pretty much in tune with the
        ethical standards of my and many other communities.  I accept the
        occasional limitations and consequences and don't whine about it.
        I make my choices and I know how to be civilly disobedient: a good
        ol' American pastime. 

        I like Ken's choice of "missing the mark," not because it isn't as
        potentially ethereal a turn of phrase as "sin," but rather, as in his
        example, it implies its own possibility of (self) redemption (which is
        a choice) and personal ownership; not so much beholden to some
        wispy cloud of uncertainty keeping an eternal scorecard we have
        no access to and to whom -- in Xianity, for example -- we cannot
        appeal save through some alleged intercessor we don't even know.

        Tom U.

         ***************************************************************************
        6.1. sin
            Posted by: "Gnostic Ken" gnostic_ken@... gnostic_ken
            Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:37 am ((PST))



        > re any sin can be forgiven
        > first thought I had, jumped into my mind,  In bible it is
        > said that there is one sin which can
        > not be forgiven. 

        Everyone,
        So just what is sin? Something which upsets some God so much that the God will send people to burn forever for doing it?

        Something contrary to the natural laws of the Universe which will result in trouble if we do it? Is it a sin to jump out of an airplane without a parachute?

        Some say in ancient times sin simply meant missing the mark. Getting it wrong. In this case all you would have to do is try again and hopefully get it right. Two plus two is not five. You have sinned. Now try again. Yes it is four. Your sin is forgiven.

        Ken





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rosiolady@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, vang19th@yahoo.com writes: I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 16, 2009
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          In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
          vang19th@... writes:

          I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just like other
          phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words attached to them
          people understand immediately and know how to apply without hisitation, like
          time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons belonging to the
          realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about 200 years have
          tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident phenomenon. It
          doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it. (imo,all)

          Soren


          I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme, I believe
          sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said something that I
          feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against yourself even)
          won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go against what "you"
          feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of another
          person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the perpetrator would
          feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person, taking an
          advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty trick" would
          deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body. So the same
          act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.

          Rosalie
          **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
          steps!
          (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
          cemailfooterNO62)


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Diana Palmer
          I recently finished reading a book called Nine Faces of Christ: Quest of the True Initiate by Eugene Whitworth. Later in the book there is a discussion
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
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            I recently finished reading a book called "Nine Faces of Christ: Quest of the True Initiate" by Eugene Whitworth. Later in the book there is a discussion between Jeshua the initiate and one of the masters about what is sin. After the young Jeshua gives the standard answer about sin, the master replies as follows:

            "Sin as you are defining it was the work of the minds of men, making clever snares for the minds, freedoms, and purses of mankind. Sin is only this: that which stops man's progress toward union with the Radiant God, toward eternal bliss and life eternal. That only is sin which stops man's eventual union with God. If this is sin, then all man's morality has to do with ideas that control man's actions and can have nothing to do with sin. For morals are concerned with man's relationship with man -- not with man's relationship to God. Don't tell me God is concerned with man's relationship to man. Do that, and you lower God to the status of a slave.

            "You may sin when you break a moral code, but not because you break it. You sin only if you let your mind involve you in the act, if you let your thoughts cause you to stop in your struggle toward total union with Divine Radiance. When you have reached such a stage that you can do anything without being sidetracked into the attitude of negation, it is impossible to sin."

            ~ Diana



            On Monday, January 12, 2009, at 05:37AM, "Gnostic Ken" <gnostic_ken@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >> re any sin can be forgiven
            >> first thought I had, jumped into my mind,  In bible it is
            >> said that there is one sin which can
            >> not be forgiven. 
            >
            >Everyone,
            >So just what is sin? Something which upsets some God so much that the God will send people to burn forever for doing it?
            >
            >Something contrary to the natural laws of the Universe which will result in trouble if we do it? Is it a sin to jump out of an airplane without a parachute?
            >
            >Some say in ancient times sin simply meant missing the mark. Getting it wrong. In this case all you would have to do is try again and hopefully get it right. Two plus two is not five. You have sinned. Now try again. Yes it is four. Your sin is forgiven.
            >
            >Ken
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tom Ragland
            ... it. You sin only if you let your mind involve you in the act, if you let your thoughts cause you to stop in your struggle toward total union with Divine
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
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              Diana Palmer wrote:

              > "You may sin when you break a moral code, but not because you break
              it. You sin only if you let your mind involve you in the act, if you let
              your thoughts cause you to stop in your struggle toward total union with
              Divine Radiance. When you have reached such a stage that you can do
              anything without being sidetracked into the attitude of negation, it is
              impossible to sin."
              >
              > ~ Diana
              >
              >

              so you can be a Charles Manson spiritually minded serial killer and
              that's OK as long as you distance yourself from the reality of killing
              people and it is thus not wrong for you like it is for normal folk.

              I don't get it.

              Gnostic Tom
            • Diana Palmer
              IMO, if one is truly seeking union with the divine, one would be so filled with divine love that he/she would not be moved to commit such acts.
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
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                IMO, if one is truly seeking union with the divine, one would be so filled with divine love that he/she would not be moved to commit such acts.


                On Sunday, January 18, 2009, at 12:34PM, "Tom Ragland" <tomragland@...> wrote:
                >Diana Palmer wrote:
                >
                > > "You may sin when you break a moral code, but not because you break
                >it. You sin only if you let your mind involve you in the act, if you let
                >your thoughts cause you to stop in your struggle toward total union with
                >Divine Radiance. When you have reached such a stage that you can do
                >anything without being sidetracked into the attitude of negation, it is
                >impossible to sin."
                > >
                > > ~ Diana
                > >
                > >
                >
                >so you can be a Charles Manson spiritually minded serial killer and
                >that's OK as long as you distance yourself from the reality of killing
                >people and it is thus not wrong for you like it is for normal folk.
                >
                >I don't get it.
                >
                >Gnostic Tom
                >
              • Tom Ragland
                ... make up a list of such acts that he/she would not be moved to commit in your own opinion and how this this list different from defining sin or defining
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
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                  Diana Palmer wrote:
                  > IMO, if one is truly seeking union with the divine, one would be so filled with divine love that he/she would not be moved to commit such acts.
                  >
                  >

                  make up a list of "such acts" that "he/she would not be moved to commit"
                  in your own opinion

                  and how this this list different from defining sin or defining law?

                  "he/she would not be moved to commit"
                  --taking away another person's life

                  "he/she would not be moved to commit"
                  --taking away another person's stuff

                  "he/she would not be moved to commit"
                  --taking away another person's spouse

                  and how is this different from
                  thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery?

                  could there be any agreed upon list of "he/she would not be moved to
                  commit"s?
                  what would this list then be?


                  curious

                  Gnostic Tom
                • rosemary
                  thanks rosalie, ann, I m back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread seemed interesting! I have a radical statement i make now and then to stir
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
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                    thanks rosalie, ann,
                    I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                    seemed interesting!
                    I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the pot' :
                    Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                    between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                    see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                    serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                    there's something in me that says there is no difference between the
                    thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I have
                    indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                    (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a while!!)
                    I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                    Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                    born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                    intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                    concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self harming
                    by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                    others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                    some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                    regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                    you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                    Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                    and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                    understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on the
                    surface, extremely repulsive.

                    --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:
                    >

                    > In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                    > vang19th@... writes:
                    >
                    > I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
                    like other
                    > phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words
                    attached to them
                    > people understand immediately and know how to apply without
                    hisitation, like
                    > time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons
                    belonging to the
                    > realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about
                    200 years have
                    > tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident
                    phenomenon. It
                    > doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it.
                    (imo,all)
                    >
                    > Soren
                    >
                    >
                    > I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme,
                    I believe
                    > sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said
                    something that I
                    > feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against
                    yourself even)
                    > won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go against
                    what "you"
                    > feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of
                    another
                    > person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the
                    perpetrator would
                    > feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person,
                    taking an
                    > advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty
                    trick" would
                    > deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body.
                    So the same
                    > act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.
                    >
                    > Rosalie
                    > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                    just 2 easy
                    > steps!
                    > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
                    redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                    26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                    > cemailfooterNO62)
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • rosiolady@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/10/2009 2:34:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, itsallrozee@yahoo.com writes: thanks rosalie, ann, I m back-reading and checking out the
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
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                      In a message dated 2/10/2009 2:34:09 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                      itsallrozee@... writes:

                      thanks rosalie, ann,
                      I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                      seemed interesting!
                      I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the pot' :
                      Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                      between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                      see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                      serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                      there's something in me that says there is no difference between the
                      thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I have
                      indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                      (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a while!!)
                      I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                      Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                      born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                      intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                      concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self harming
                      by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                      others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                      some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                      regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                      you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                      Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                      and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                      understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on the
                      surface, extremely repulsive.



                      I think most transgressions, whatever their severity, at base come from
                      fear. Fear that "I" won't get what I need, that there isn't enough to go around
                      and I've got to get mine, whether it's love, respect, power/money, whatever.
                      This is the element of the ego, which so many people can't see past at all.
                      And then there is the fact that many folks that commit what we'd call
                      atrocities are just plain insane. I say, protect yourself from either category
                      whenever possible, that is unless you are so advanced (I'm not) that you don't
                      care what happens to your body, how or when you leave it. I'd rather not be
                      tortured into disembodiment.
                      Rosalie
                      **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
                      steps!
                      (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1218550342x1201216770/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
                      bemailfooterNO62)


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • anngraves
                      Yes at some level there is no difference between thinking and doing….some people do not have a memory of what happened after thinking, just that the person
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
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                        Yes at some level there is no difference between thinking and doing….some
                        people do not have a memory of what happened after thinking, just that the
                        person is dead or whatever happened happened. I spoke to one guy who wasn
                        ‘t sure if he was a murderer. He was pretty sure, but he didn’t know
                        exactly what happened… then on the other hand…. I saw a guy in the same
                        group who couldn’t function because I guess the guilt of committing the act
                        of murder was just catching up to them.



                        The first guy was the most likeable and also a lot like me. It scared me
                        that our emotions were so similar and he had committed murder. We were
                        Angry. I had a reason for it… the medication they were giving to me was
                        pumping up my fight or flight enzymes – dopamine and norepinephrine…. And
                        remember I was sick for a long time…. So I was producing little to no
                        serotonin to counteract the other too….not filter so to speak. (that’s why
                        I almost mashed the old guy’s face in, in my gas station story…) Actually
                        had I had a weapon, I might have really hurt him…. That is when the
                        hospitalization occurred. I admitted myself because I was afraid I was out
                        of control and would hurt someone. I had an infant at the time and I sure
                        didn’t want it to be her.



                        Can you imagine, little ole me wanting to hurt someone that bad.



                        I couldn’t, but going for help was a mistake. I’ have talked about before.
                        The people there were just doing their jobs. Which was keeping me locked up
                        and out of trouble. It was not peaceful. It was horrifying. I got off
                        those meds real quick.. I should have just had my hubby stay home for the
                        withdrawal period…

                        The culprits were Geodon and Abilify along with Cymbalta. I know now I can
                        not handle an SNRI.



                        Let me say that I am recovered from that. And I have a more peaceful heart
                        again.



                        All IME and IMO



                        Ann



                        _____

                        From: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com]
                        On Behalf Of rosemary
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:34 PM
                        To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin



                        thanks rosalie, ann,
                        I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                        seemed interesting!
                        I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the pot' :
                        Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                        between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                        see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                        serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                        there's something in me that says there is no difference between the
                        thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I have
                        indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                        (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a while!!)
                        I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                        Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                        born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                        intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                        concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self harming
                        by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                        others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                        some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                        regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                        you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                        Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                        and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                        understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on the
                        surface, extremely repulsive.

                        --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:
                        >

                        > In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                        > vang19th@... writes:
                        >
                        > I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
                        like other
                        > phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words
                        attached to them
                        > people understand immediately and know how to apply without
                        hisitation, like
                        > time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons
                        belonging to the
                        > realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about
                        200 years have
                        > tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident
                        phenomenon. It
                        > doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it.
                        (imo,all)
                        >
                        > Soren
                        >
                        >
                        > I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme,
                        I believe
                        > sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said
                        something that I
                        > feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against
                        yourself even)
                        > won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go against
                        what "you"
                        > feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of
                        another
                        > person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the
                        perpetrator would
                        > feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person,
                        taking an
                        > advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty
                        trick" would
                        > deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body.
                        So the same
                        > act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.
                        >
                        > Rosalie
                        > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                        just 2 easy
                        > steps!
                        > (http://pr.atwola
                        <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?>
                        com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
                        redir=http://www.freecred
                        <http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%25>
                        itreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                        26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                        > cemailfooterNO62)
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • rosemary
                        ... yes, i agree with that! fear is what motivates the angry child too! I d definately prefer to pass away in my sleep or failing that, very quickly: -
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
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                          --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:
                          >
                          yes, i agree with that! fear is what motivates the angry child too!
                          I'd definately prefer to pass away in my sleep or failing that, very
                          quickly: - "oops! I'm dea--!" are my preferred last words.
                          >
                          > I think most transgressions, whatever their severity, at base come
                          from
                          > fear. Fear that "I" won't get what I need, that there isn't enough
                          to go around
                          > and I've got to get mine, whether it's love, respect, power/money,
                          whatever.
                          > This is the element of the ego, which so many people can't see
                          past at all.
                          > And then there is the fact that many folks that commit what we'd
                          call
                          > atrocities are just plain insane. I say, protect yourself from
                          either category
                          > whenever possible, that is unless you are so advanced (I'm not)
                          that you don't
                          > care what happens to your body, how or when you leave it. I'd
                          rather not be
                          > tortured into disembodiment.
                          > Rosalie
                          > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                          just 2 easy
                          > steps!
                          > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1218550342x1201216770/aol?
                          redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                          26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
                          > bemailfooterNO62)
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • rosemary
                          hi ann, no! can t imagine you as a killer at all!!! ... doing….some ... that the ... who wasn ... know ... same ... the act ... scared me ... were ... me was
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
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                            hi ann,

                            no! can't imagine you as a killer at all!!!

                            --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "anngraves" <anngraves@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes at some level there is no difference between thinking and
                            doing….some
                            > people do not have a memory of what happened after thinking, just
                            that the
                            > person is dead or whatever happened happened. I spoke to one guy
                            who wasn
                            > `t sure if he was a murderer. He was pretty sure, but he didn't
                            know
                            > exactly what happened… then on the other hand…. I saw a guy in the
                            same
                            > group who couldn't function because I guess the guilt of committing
                            the act
                            > of murder was just catching up to them.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The first guy was the most likeable and also a lot like me. It
                            scared me
                            > that our emotions were so similar and he had committed murder. We
                            were
                            > Angry. I had a reason for it… the medication they were giving to
                            me was
                            > pumping up my fight or flight enzymes – dopamine and
                            norepinephrine…. And
                            > remember I was sick for a long time…. So I was producing little to
                            no
                            > serotonin to counteract the other too….not filter so to speak.
                            (that's why
                            > I almost mashed the old guy's face in, in my gas station story…)
                            Actually
                            > had I had a weapon, I might have really hurt him…. That is when the
                            > hospitalization occurred. I admitted myself because I was afraid I
                            was out
                            > of control and would hurt someone. I had an infant at the time and
                            I sure
                            > didn't want it to be her.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Can you imagine, little ole me wanting to hurt someone that bad.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I couldn't, but going for help was a mistake. I' have talked about
                            before.
                            > The people there were just doing their jobs. Which was keeping me
                            locked up
                            > and out of trouble. It was not peaceful. It was horrifying. I
                            got off
                            > those meds real quick.. I should have just had my hubby stay home
                            for the
                            > withdrawal period…
                            >
                            > The culprits were Geodon and Abilify along with Cymbalta. I know
                            now I can
                            > not handle an SNRI.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Let me say that I am recovered from that. And I have a more
                            peaceful heart
                            > again.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > All IME and IMO
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Ann
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _____
                            >
                            > From: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com]
                            > On Behalf Of rosemary
                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:34 PM
                            > To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > thanks rosalie, ann,
                            > I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                            > seemed interesting!
                            > I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the
                            pot' :
                            > Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                            > between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                            > see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                            > serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                            > there's something in me that says there is no difference between
                            the
                            > thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I
                            have
                            > indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                            > (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a
                            while!!)
                            > I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                            > Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                            > born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                            > intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                            > concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self
                            harming
                            > by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                            > others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                            > some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                            > regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                            > you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                            > Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                            > and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                            > understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on
                            the
                            > surface, extremely repulsive.
                            >
                            > --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@ wrote:
                            > >
                            >
                            > > In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                            > > vang19th@ writes:
                            > >
                            > > I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
                            > like other
                            > > phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words
                            > attached to them
                            > > people understand immediately and know how to apply without
                            > hisitation, like
                            > > time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons
                            > belonging to the
                            > > realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about
                            > 200 years have
                            > > tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident
                            > phenomenon. It
                            > > doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it.
                            > (imo,all)
                            > >
                            > > Soren
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme,
                            > I believe
                            > > sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said
                            > something that I
                            > > feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against
                            > yourself even)
                            > > won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go
                            against
                            > what "you"
                            > > feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of
                            > another
                            > > person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the
                            > perpetrator would
                            > > feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person,
                            > taking an
                            > > advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty
                            > trick" would
                            > > deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body.
                            > So the same
                            > > act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.
                            > >
                            > > Rosalie
                            > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                            > just 2 easy
                            > > steps!
                            > > (http://pr.atwola
                            > <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?>
                            > com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
                            > redir=http://www.freecred
                            > <http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%25>
                            > itreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                            > 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                            > > cemailfooterNO62)
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • anngraves
                            That s probably true Rosalie.. For me it is fear I won t be validated as a person,,, or possibly even be invalidated..that is my main trigger. But I am
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That's probably true Rosalie.. For me it is fear I won't be validated as a
                              person,,, or possibly even be invalidated..that is my main trigger. But I
                              am getting better at being less fearful.the hardest part is when you fear
                              those you love. But again. I am more at peace now, and I have this list to
                              thank for a lot of the peace I have been rewarded with.



                              Ann



                              _____

                              From: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com]
                              On Behalf Of rosemary
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:05 PM
                              To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin



                              --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@... wrote:
                              >
                              yes, i agree with that! fear is what motivates the angry child too!
                              I'd definately prefer to pass away in my sleep or failing that, very
                              quickly: - "oops! I'm dea--!" are my preferred last words.
                              >
                              > I think most transgressions, whatever their severity, at base come
                              from
                              > fear. Fear that "I" won't get what I need, that there isn't enough
                              to go around
                              > and I've got to get mine, whether it's love, respect, power/money,
                              whatever.
                              > This is the element of the ego, which so many people can't see
                              past at all.
                              > And then there is the fact that many folks that commit what we'd
                              call
                              > atrocities are just plain insane. I say, protect yourself from
                              either category
                              > whenever possible, that is unless you are so advanced (I'm not)
                              that you don't
                              > care what happens to your body, how or when you leave it. I'd
                              rather not be
                              > tortured into disembodiment.
                              > Rosalie
                              > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                              just 2 easy
                              > steps!
                              > (http://pr.atwola
                              <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1218550342x1201216770/aol?>
                              com/promoclk/100000075x1218550342x1201216770/aol?
                              redir=http://www.freecred
                              <http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%25>
                              itreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                              26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
                              > bemailfooterNO62)
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • anngraves
                              I think if we get down to primal instinct level which is where I think I was at….everyone is capable or most people anyway…. Travis Lee Barrett and other
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 10, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I think if we get down to primal instinct level which is where I think I was
                                at….everyone is capable or most people anyway….



                                Travis Lee Barrett and other Buffy Fans…: Think of when Buffy realized her
                                slayer self which was supposed to be the good side, meets her ancestor the
                                first slayer who is a part of her. And she is a demon. Just like the
                                Vamps.



                                With love,

                                Ann



                                _____

                                From: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com]
                                On Behalf Of rosemary
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:19 PM
                                To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin



                                hi ann,

                                no! can't imagine you as a killer at all!!!

                                --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com, "anngraves" <anngraves@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Yes at some level there is no difference between thinking and
                                doing….some
                                > people do not have a memory of what happened after thinking, just
                                that the
                                > person is dead or whatever happened happened. I spoke to one guy
                                who wasn
                                > `t sure if he was a murderer. He was pretty sure, but he didn't
                                know
                                > exactly what happened… then on the other hand…. I saw a guy in the
                                same
                                > group who couldn't function because I guess the guilt of committing
                                the act
                                > of murder was just catching up to them.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The first guy was the most likeable and also a lot like me. It
                                scared me
                                > that our emotions were so similar and he had committed murder. We
                                were
                                > Angry. I had a reason for it… the medication they were giving to
                                me was
                                > pumping up my fight or flight enzymes – dopamine and
                                norepinephrine…. And
                                > remember I was sick for a long time…. So I was producing little to
                                no
                                > serotonin to counteract the other too….not filter so to speak.
                                (that's why
                                > I almost mashed the old guy's face in, in my gas station story…)
                                Actually
                                > had I had a weapon, I might have really hurt him…. That is when the
                                > hospitalization occurred. I admitted myself because I was afraid I
                                was out
                                > of control and would hurt someone. I had an infant at the time and
                                I sure
                                > didn't want it to be her.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Can you imagine, little ole me wanting to hurt someone that bad.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I couldn't, but going for help was a mistake. I' have talked about
                                before.
                                > The people there were just doing their jobs. Which was keeping me
                                locked up
                                > and out of trouble. It was not peaceful. It was horrifying. I
                                got off
                                > those meds real quick.. I should have just had my hubby stay home
                                for the
                                > withdrawal period…
                                >
                                > The culprits were Geodon and Abilify along with Cymbalta. I know
                                now I can
                                > not handle an SNRI.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Let me say that I am recovered from that. And I have a more
                                peaceful heart
                                > again.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > All IME and IMO
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Ann
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > _____
                                >
                                > From: GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com]
                                > On Behalf Of rosemary
                                > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:34 PM
                                > To: GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > thanks rosalie, ann,
                                > I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                                > seemed interesting!
                                > I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the
                                pot' :
                                > Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                                > between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                                > see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                                > serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                                > there's something in me that says there is no difference between
                                the
                                > thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I
                                have
                                > indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                                > (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a
                                while!!)
                                > I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                                > Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                                > born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                                > intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                                > concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self
                                harming
                                > by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                                > others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                                > some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                                > regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                                > you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                                > Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                                > and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                                > understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on
                                the
                                > surface, extremely repulsive.
                                >
                                > --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@ wrote:
                                > >
                                >
                                > > In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                > > vang19th@ writes:
                                > >
                                > > I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
                                > like other
                                > > phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words
                                > attached to them
                                > > people understand immediately and know how to apply without
                                > hisitation, like
                                > > time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons
                                > belonging to the
                                > > realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about
                                > 200 years have
                                > > tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident
                                > phenomenon. It
                                > > doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it.
                                > (imo,all)
                                > >
                                > > Soren
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme,
                                > I believe
                                > > sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said
                                > something that I
                                > > feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against
                                > yourself even)
                                > > won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go
                                against
                                > what "you"
                                > > feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of
                                > another
                                > > person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the
                                > perpetrator would
                                > > feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person,
                                > taking an
                                > > advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty
                                > trick" would
                                > > deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body.
                                > So the same
                                > > act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.
                                > >
                                > > Rosalie
                                > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
                                > just 2 easy
                                > > steps!
                                > > (http://pr.atwola
                                > <http://pr.atwola
                                <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?>
                                com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?>
                                > com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
                                > redir=http://www.freecred
                                > <http://www.freecred
                                <http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%25>
                                itreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%25>
                                > itreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%
                                > 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                                > > cemailfooterNO62)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • gnosisknight
                                I ve been thinking a lot about sin. I think hamartia or missing the mark, is a valid way to look at it. I think it happens because we are in an imperfect
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 13, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I've been thinking a lot about sin. I think hamartia or missing the
                                  mark, is a valid way to look at it. I think it happens because we are
                                  in an imperfect creation, but we have the experience of having that
                                  divine spark within each of us. In the gnostic gospels I have looked
                                  at a lot of verses that talk about the two becoming one. I can almost
                                  think it is the two aspects of ourselves (spritual and the material).
                                  I think if they do function correctly, the nature of the spirit will
                                  shine through our actions. It is the trial and blight of this world
                                  that allows the spirit to fall asleep and the being acts as if the
                                  material were the important, thus inspiring fear.

                                  I think the pagans had it right when they talked about intention.
                                  Intention is the thought and from there we are saved or destroyed.

                                  I think Sufism deals with the act of sin in an interesting way. A
                                  true sufi must understand that he might kill as well as he might heal.
                                  It has to do with maintaining the freedom to walk the right path and
                                  not miss the mark. Or in the grail legend when the benevolent Gawain
                                  cannot find the grail because he adheres to readily to the "code of
                                  the knight" (expectations of his upbringing/society). What I have
                                  just written would get me in all kinds of trouble with my kin, but
                                  well, I guess they just don't understand.
                                  Trav


                                  --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "anngraves" <anngraves@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yes at some level there is no difference between thinking and
                                  doing….some
                                  > people do not have a memory of what happened after thinking, just
                                  that the
                                  > person is dead or whatever happened happened. I spoke to one guy
                                  who wasn
                                  > `t sure if he was a murderer. He was pretty sure, but he didn't know
                                  > exactly what happened… then on the other hand…. I saw a guy in the same
                                  > group who couldn't function because I guess the guilt of committing
                                  the act
                                  > of murder was just catching up to them.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The first guy was the most likeable and also a lot like me. It scared me
                                  > that our emotions were so similar and he had committed murder. We were
                                  > Angry. I had a reason for it… the medication they were giving to
                                  me was
                                  > pumping up my fight or flight enzymes – dopamine and
                                  norepinephrine…. And
                                  > remember I was sick for a long time…. So I was producing little to no
                                  > serotonin to counteract the other too….not filter so to speak.
                                  (that's why
                                  > I almost mashed the old guy's face in, in my gas station story…)
                                  Actually
                                  > had I had a weapon, I might have really hurt him…. That is when the
                                  > hospitalization occurred. I admitted myself because I was afraid I
                                  was out
                                  > of control and would hurt someone. I had an infant at the time and
                                  I sure
                                  > didn't want it to be her.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Can you imagine, little ole me wanting to hurt someone that bad.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I couldn't, but going for help was a mistake. I' have talked about
                                  before.
                                  > The people there were just doing their jobs. Which was keeping me
                                  locked up
                                  > and out of trouble. It was not peaceful. It was horrifying. I got off
                                  > those meds real quick.. I should have just had my hubby stay home
                                  for the
                                  > withdrawal period…
                                  >
                                  > The culprits were Geodon and Abilify along with Cymbalta. I know
                                  now I can
                                  > not handle an SNRI.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Let me say that I am recovered from that. And I have a more
                                  peaceful heart
                                  > again.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > All IME and IMO
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ann
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com]
                                  > On Behalf Of rosemary
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:34 PM
                                  > To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > thanks rosalie, ann,
                                  > I'm back-reading and checking out the action! this sin thread
                                  > seemed interesting!
                                  > I have a radical statement i make now and then to 'stir up the pot' :
                                  > Guilt Is Sin. But when something quite horrific is played out
                                  > between humans, it can be very difficult to transcend judgement and
                                  > see what lays beyond the act, the pain, the horror.
                                  > serial murder is the usual example, as is child abuse, and yet
                                  > there's something in me that says there is no difference between the
                                  > thought and the deed at some level. On the rare occasion that I have
                                  > indulged and imagined, say, vengeance of some the kind on someone...
                                  > (very rare, i put up with just about everything for quite a while!!)
                                  > I've found it disturbing to even think horrible things.
                                  > Maybe behind most killers, there hides an angry child?. The natural
                                  > born nasty person is rare perhaps..There's alot to be said for
                                  > intention where the concept of trangression and tresspass is
                                  > concerned. 'Sin' seems to be something that is primarily self harming
                                  > by going against what one knows to be right and secondly harmful to
                                  > others? Still, If it came to the point i had to protect kids from
                                  > some terrible maniac, i would probably do what i had to do without
                                  > regret, but until these circumstances are right there in front of
                                  > you, it's hard to know what one would do.
                                  > Imo, we place too much significance on levels and degrees of right
                                  > and wrong. whichever way I look at it, there is a lack of
                                  > understanding and wisdom in the rush to judge an act that is, on the
                                  > surface, extremely repulsive.
                                  >
                                  > --- In GnosticThought@ <mailto:GnosticThought%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, rosiolady@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > > In a message dated 1/15/2009 6:17:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
                                  > > vang19th@ writes:
                                  > >
                                  > > I don´t think that sin is something you can define. It is just
                                  > like other
                                  > > phenomenons which are quite selfevident, meaning the words
                                  > attached to them
                                  > > people understand immediately and know how to apply without
                                  > hisitation, like
                                  > > time, history, labour, sexuality, language, all phenomenons
                                  > belonging to the
                                  > > realm of mans life, which the socalled human sciences for about
                                  > 200 years have
                                  > > tried to define, forgetting that you can´t define a selfevident
                                  > phenomenon. It
                                  > > doesn´t need a definition to be understood, it can only blur it.
                                  > (imo,all)
                                  > >
                                  > > Soren
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I always enjoy reading your messages, Soren. On this same theme,
                                  > I believe
                                  > > sin is too relative to define. A former friend once said
                                  > something that I
                                  > > feel must be true, that the things you do to others (or against
                                  > yourself even)
                                  > > won't hurt you, perhaps won't garner karma, unless they go against
                                  > what "you"
                                  > > feel is right. In other words, one person may take advantage of
                                  > another
                                  > > person and feel it was perfectly justified. In that case the
                                  > perpetrator would
                                  > > feel comfortable in mind and body after that act. Another person,
                                  > taking an
                                  > > advantage in the same way but believing he'd "played a dirty
                                  > trick" would
                                  > > deal with varying degrees of discomfort in his/her mind and body.
                                  > So the same
                                  > > act was a "sin" to one person and not the other.
                                  > >
                                  > > Rosalie
                                  > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in
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                                  > com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?
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                                  > 26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
                                  > > cemailfooterNO62)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • gnostic_ken
                                  In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Post 274: The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits seemingly
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                    In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                    Merlin8364@... writes:

                                    >
                                    > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                    > are
                                    > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                    > >
                                    > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                    > spirit
                                    > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                    > it
                                    > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                    > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                    > from
                                    > > that wonderful spirit existence.

                                    Post 274:

                                    The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                    seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                    and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                    spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                    just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.

                                    Love, Light and Peace,
                                    Merlin
                                  • SteveW
                                    Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic Ghost in the Machine view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal ). So, do you still
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                      Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                      Steve

                                      --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                      > Merlin8364@... writes:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                      > > are
                                      > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                      > > spirit
                                      > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                      > > it
                                      > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                      > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                      > > from
                                      > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                      >
                                      > Post 274:
                                      >
                                      > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                      > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                      > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                      > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                      > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                      >
                                      > Love, Light and Peace,
                                      > Merlin
                                      >
                                    • gnostic_ken
                                      Hi Steve, It didn t take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion. Ken
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                        Hi Steve,
                                        It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.

                                        Ken

                                        --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                        > Steve
                                        >
                                        > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                        > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                        > > > are
                                        > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                        > > > spirit
                                        > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                        > > > it
                                        > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                        > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                        > > > from
                                        > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                        > >
                                        > > Post 274:
                                        > >
                                        > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                        > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                        > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                        > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                        > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                        > >
                                        > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                        > > Merlin
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • rosiolady
                                        In a message dated 3/6/2013 10:56:04 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, gnostic_ken@yahoo.com writes: Hi Steve, It didn t take me very long to figure out the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                          In a message dated 3/6/2013 10:56:04 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, gnostic_ken@... writes:
                                          Hi Steve,
                                          It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.

                                          Ken

                                          --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                          > Steve
                                          Just because a person speaks of two different, perhaps opposite, aspects of the same thing, for example physical and spiritual, does not necessarily mean they are dualists.  IMO  Everything as at least two opposite "aspects", positive and negative, and many more aspects in between.
                                           
                                          Rosalie
                                        • humbleservant1god
                                          so, no spirit world?
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Mar 6, 2013
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                                            so, no spirit world?

                                            --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Steve,
                                            > It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.
                                            >
                                            > Ken
                                            >
                                            > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                            > > Steve
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                            > > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                            > > > > are
                                            > > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                            > > > > spirit
                                            > > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                            > > > > it
                                            > > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                            > > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                            > > > > from
                                            > > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Post 274:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                            > > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                            > > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                            > > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                            > > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                            > > > Merlin
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • gnostic_ken
                                            More like no physical world. Everything is energy. The energy we call the spirit world is on a different wavelength from the energy we experience as the
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                              More like no physical world. Everything is energy. The energy we call the spirit world is on a different wavelength from the energy we experience as the physical.

                                              IMO.

                                              Ken

                                              --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "humbleservant1god" <humbleservant1god@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > so, no spirit world?
                                              >
                                              > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Steve,
                                              > > It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.
                                              > >
                                              > > Ken
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                              > > > Steve
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                              > > > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                              > > > > > are
                                              > > > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                              > > > > > spirit
                                              > > > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                              > > > > > it
                                              > > > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                              > > > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                              > > > > > from
                                              > > > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Post 274:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                              > > > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                              > > > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                              > > > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                              > > > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                              > > > > Merlin
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • old bob
                                              Hi Ken. I think of everything that I can sense as energy in one form or another, including myself. I m aware of stuff that I can t visualize without some form
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Mar 7, 2013
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                                                Hi Ken. I think of everything that I can sense as energy in one form or another, including myself. I'm aware of stuff that I can't visualize without some form of a device to use as a detector and it is energy too. Inductively, I assume that there is still a lot of stuff out there that I simply only have the resources to speculate about. I would be arrogant indeed to think that there aren't energy forms (life or devices) that are aware of them. For lack of a better (more religious name) I might call that hidden form Ellie.

                                                Closer to the subject of what I am able to observe, I can think of nothing that can't be thought of as energy in some form or another. I can think of concepts and similar processes as not being energy forms, but from this perspective, they really aren't "things". Kinda like vectors, in that they have magnitude and direction, but require time to execute. Oh no... back to time again. (grin)

                                                old bob
                                                --.-




                                                From: gnostic_ken <gnostic_ken@...>
                                                To: GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 2:37 AM
                                                Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: sin

                                                 
                                                More like no physical world. Everything is energy. The energy we call the spirit world is on a different wavelength from the energy we experience as the physical.

                                                IMO.

                                                Ken

                                                --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "humbleservant1god" <humbleservant1god@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > so, no spirit world?
                                                >
                                                > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi Steve,
                                                > > It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.
                                                > >
                                                > > Ken
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                                > > > Steve
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                > > > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                                > > > > > are
                                                > > > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                                > > > > > spirit
                                                > > > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                                > > > > > it
                                                > > > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                                > > > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                                > > > > > from
                                                > > > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Post 274:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                                > > > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                                > > > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                                > > > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                                > > > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                                > > > > Merlin
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >



                                              • SteveW
                                                Hi Ken. I agree, although I dislike the word, spirit , as being too vague. IMO what we call reality is a dipolar unity that includes an objective pole and a
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Mar 8, 2013
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                                                  Hi Ken. I agree, although I dislike the word, "spirit", as being too vague. IMO what we call reality is a dipolar unity that includes an objective pole and a subjective pole. Philosophically speaking, the word "physical" doesn't really mean anything anymore. See Paul Davies' The Matter Myth on this. My mistake before, imo, was to always think of consciousness as prior to matter/energy. Now I just see them as two sides of the same coin. What this "coin" is, in itself, we can never know, for we cannot step outside of it in order to look at it. It is what Freke and Gandy call The Mystery. IMO.
                                                  Steve

                                                  --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > More like no physical world. Everything is energy. The energy we call the spirit world is on a different wavelength from the energy we experience as the physical.
                                                  >
                                                  > IMO.
                                                  >
                                                  > Ken
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "humbleservant1god" <humbleservant1god@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > so, no spirit world?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hi Steve,
                                                  > > > It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Ken
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                                  > > > > Steve
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                  > > > > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                                  > > > > > > are
                                                  > > > > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                                  > > > > > > spirit
                                                  > > > > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                                  > > > > > > it
                                                  > > > > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                                  > > > > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                                  > > > > > > from
                                                  > > > > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Post 274:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                                  > > > > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                                  > > > > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                                  > > > > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                                  > > > > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                                  > > > > > Merlin
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • gnostic_ken
                                                  Hi Steve, Assuming I understand what you are saying, I agree. Ken
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Mar 8, 2013
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                                                    Hi Steve,
                                                    Assuming I understand what you are saying, I agree.

                                                    Ken

                                                    --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Ken. I agree, although I dislike the word, "spirit", as being too vague. IMO what we call reality is a dipolar unity that includes an objective pole and a subjective pole. Philosophically speaking, the word "physical" doesn't really mean anything anymore. See Paul Davies' The Matter Myth on this. My mistake before, imo, was to always think of consciousness as prior to matter/energy. Now I just see them as two sides of the same coin. What this "coin" is, in itself, we can never know, for we cannot step outside of it in order to look at it. It is what Freke and Gandy call The Mystery. IMO.
                                                    > Steve
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > More like no physical world. Everything is energy. The energy we call the spirit world is on a different wavelength from the energy we experience as the physical.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > IMO.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Ken
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "humbleservant1god" <humbleservant1god@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > so, no spirit world?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Hi Steve,
                                                    > > > > It didn't take me very long to figure out the separation is illusion.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Ken
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Hi Ken. So here you were definitely a metaphysical dualist, the classic "Ghost in the Machine" view (or, rather, the Ghost in the Animal"). So, do you still regard your mental and emotional life as something separate from, and at odds with, your biological life?
                                                    > > > > > Steve
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "gnostic_ken" <gnostic_ken@> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/99 4:06:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                                    > > > > > > Merlin8364@ writes:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Original sin, the Fall, separation from God, all the same thing. They
                                                    > > > > > > > are
                                                    > > > > > > > > names we give to the feeling that we are cut off from God.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > We are spirits living in material animal bodies. We know there is a
                                                    > > > > > > > spirit
                                                    > > > > > > > > world, we catch sight of it now and then. We think our separation from
                                                    > > > > > > > it
                                                    > > > > > > > > must be wrong because it is so wonderful and perfect. We come up with
                                                    > > > > > > > > stories like "original sin" to explain why we are seemingly so cut off
                                                    > > > > > > > from
                                                    > > > > > > > > that wonderful spirit existence.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Post 274:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > The concept of sin also results from our very nature. We are spirits
                                                    > > > > > > seemingly trapped in animal bodies. Our spirit nature wants to do one thing
                                                    > > > > > > and our animal nature wants to do something else. Sometime or other our
                                                    > > > > > > spirit side decided one has to be good and the other evil. Our animal side
                                                    > > > > > > just thinks our spirit side is being stupid.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Love, Light and Peace,
                                                    > > > > > > Merlin
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
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