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Re: 17/153

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  • mzh_warthog
    Hi Daimonic, Please see below. ... act ... Ok - thanks, I see the distinction that we make. To me will is meerly the energy of thought process, a bodily
    Message 1 of 90 , Sep 1, 2003
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      Hi Daimonic,

      Please see below.

      > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "mzh_warthog"
      > <mzh_warthog@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi there Daimonic,
      > >
      > > Thanks for the reply.
      > >
      > > If arrogance is defined as having or showing feelings of
      > > unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride then how can an
      act
      > > of will be arrogance?
      >
      > Because often, people put what they think is their "true" Will into
      > play without understanding the consequences of their actions--how
      > they will be affected; how someone else will be affected; what kind
      > of unknown and incidental consequences will result. Nothing happens
      > in isolation--everything is interconnected.

      Ok - thanks, I see the distinction that we make. To me will is meerly
      the energy of thought process, a bodily resource if you like. I can
      understand the difference in your definition now.

      The magical chain connects everything at all times.

      >
      > > When as an act of sheer will , overcoming physical pain and
      selfish
      > > subconcious desire I act to help another, how is that arrogant?
      >
      > The very fact that a person would be conscious of "overcoming
      > physical pain and selfish subconscious desire" reveals that
      arrogance
      > is at work. When an individual does something and isn't even aware
      > at the moment that he is doing it (for whatever intention)--then
      > that's when one can be confident that he is not practicing
      arrogance.
      >

      You wouldnt be aware of it at the moment of action , or your couldnt
      act. So I guess we agree.


      > > I think that I misunderstand your words.
      >
      > According to Nietzsche, one of the pleasures (or faults) of a
      > philosopher is to have his words misunderstood.
      >
      > > There are many elements at play that finally result in my actions
      > > sorted by the narrator that I call my conscious mind.
      > >
      > > It would be arrogant of me to assume that everyones mind is like
      > > mine in this respect
      >
      > You make the mistake in giving human beings too much credit in the
      > uniqueness department. Everyone's mind is just like your's and
      mine.

      To judge the similarilty of our minds based on our brief interaction
      seems a little premature, however I respect your opinion.


      > > so I am fascinated by your descriptions as they dont
      > > seem to match my experience.
      >
      > The good news is that my experiences have matched many others--I'm
      in
      > good company: C.G. Jung, Aleister Crowley, Marcus Aurelius,
      > Epictetus, Friedrich Nietzsche, Hermas, Marcus the Gnostic,
      Muhammad,
      > and a number of others. It seems that I'm following down an already
      > well-traveled road.

      Glad to hear you have company, I seem to spend much time alone on my
      path. I spent a while with the thoughts of Jung, Freud, Crowley,
      Waite and others. It was a comforting time.


      > If your experiences don't match mine, then it will probably be hard
      > for you to relate to what I write, but, you only have your
      > experiences to rely upon, and that's what you must go with.
      >
      > > If you would be so kind as to add a little more flesh to the bones
      > > I could perhaps understand the basis of your ideology.
      >
      > You must become a 'Muslim' to understand.

      Not my path.


      > > I confess didn't know there was a middle path. At what point did
      > > AC persue a middle path?
      >
      > For anyone seeking the Knowledge and Conversation of their Holy
      > Guardian Angel, I would never recommend using Aleister Crowley as a
      > role model or example. However, for a brief time, he was indeed
      very
      > successful--but, like many teachers, Crowley taught intellectually
      > but not through example. For instance, in "Magick", his exhortation
      > is to follow the way of Moderation--but obviously, Crowley's life
      was
      > anything but moderate. Because of his excesses, Crowley eventually
      > lost his sparkle. Remember, the New Testament tells us that
      > Salvation can be LOST. Only "He who endures will be SAVED".
      Another
      > way of putting it: "He who endures will SURVIVE". Survival often
      > requires a suppleness that allows one to bend with whatever
      > conditions are occurring at the moment.
      >
      > > I thought at the end he was decidedly left handed in his little
      > > villa by the sea.
      >
      > Crowley, at the end, was a shadow of his former attainment;
      > degraded. Even those who have climbed to the top of the mountain
      > sometimes fall off.
      >
      > daimonic666

      Understood.

      best regards

      Martin
    • Jenny
      Hi Martin, Rituals and ceremonies are necessary and important in many ways and for many reasons. We all use them all the time in daily life anyway. Some need
      Message 90 of 90 , Sep 5, 2003
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        Hi Martin,
        Rituals and ceremonies are necessary and important in many ways and for many
        reasons. We all use them all the time in daily life anyway. Some need the
        processes and procedures, and often the discipline which is required.
        But as you said, "So why should any Gnostic insights be less valid because
        of a mans chosen path?"
        Exactly! It is not about the path or the journey , but what we remember of
        our true essence and how we live it out and what we already are in the
        process of becoming the Divine Presence. As Penn so aptly put it in another
        post to Samantha, he said "You'll find numerous views among those of us
        who call themselves Gnostic.
        You may even find a Gnostic within yourself as you come to understand what
        it is ;)

        In remembrance we already know and all ancestral memory contains
        everything that ever is, was and will be. And it is recorded within our
        very cells and DNA.

        Warmest regards,
        Jen




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: mzh_warthog <mzh_warthog@...>
        To: <GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:25 PM
        Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: 17/153


        >
        > Jen,
        >
        > In the simplest terms - you reminded me that I was still suffering
        > from prejudice.
        >
        > AC was a man for whom passions ruled his life and his demise. I
        > prejuded his insites as being worthless on solely this criteria.
        >
        > Ive revisited most of his major works and it has helped me to gain an
        > insite into myself.
        >
        > It also caused me to revisit memories that have been repressed and
        > denied for more than 18 years, when I was baptised as a born again
        > Christian.
        >
        > I still dont agree with much that he said and his dependancy on
        > ritual. You dont need ritual to conjure the four - they are always
        > present. Similarily why seek power. It flows through you and
        > envelops you as the air itself fills your lungs, the water fills your
        > veins, the earth builds your bones and fire animates them.
        >
        > The magus had four duties
        >
        > To know,
        > to dare,
        > to will,
        > and to be silent.
        >
        > to know, as without knowledge all action is folly.
        > To dare, as any action is to risk reaction of the magnetic chain, even
        > inaction.
        > to will, for it is by force of will alone that the world was enimated.
        > and to be silent, for any change is not for our glory but for his.
        >
        > Right, left or center path the duties are the same.
        >
        > So why should any Gnostic insights be less valid because of a mans
        > chosen path?
        >
        > When the truth is so obvious, the worse lies are the ones I have told
        > myself to keep me from seeing it.
        >
        > Martin
        >
        >
        >
        > > Hi Martin,
        > > I don't know what you think it is that I did, but you're welcome :)
        > > Rock on!
        > >
        > > Warmest regards,
        > > Jen
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: mzh_warthog <mzh_warthog@y...>
        > > To: <GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 11:27 PM
        > > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: 17/153
        > >
        > >
        > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "Jenny" <jengo@x> wrote:
        > > > Hi Jenny,
        > > >
        > > > Thanks.
        > > >
        > > > Please see the end of my reply to Daimon
        > > >
        > > > Warm regards
        > > >
        > > > Martin
        > > >
        > > > > Hi Martin,
        > > > >
        > > > > It is not so difficult to separate the man from the teachings,
        > > > especially
        > > > > later on. Takes the meaning "one man's meat is another man's
        > > > poison" to a
        > > > > whole new level.
        > > > > A lot of people take his non conformity and the whole created
        > > > persona image
        > > > > as an excuse to be 'anti' whatever and this becomes a sort of
        > > > subculture
        > > > > and doesn't necessarily lead anywhere close to resembling
        > spiritual
        > > > growth
        > > > > or evolution or true work. Just my opinion based on
        > observations.
        > > > >
        > > > > Warmest regards,
        > > > > Jen
        > > > >
        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > From: mzh_warthog <mzh_warthog@y...>
        > > > > To: <GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:41 PM
        > > > > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: 17/153
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > > --- In GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com, "Jenny" <jengo@x>
        > wrote:
        > > > > > > Hi Martin,
        > > > > > > Since you mention A.C. Do you think his works are
        > > > misinterpreted
        > > > > > and
        > > > > > > misunderstood by some if not many?
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Kindest regards,
        > > > > > > Jenny
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Jenny,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Yes, and for good reason. He wanted to cloud his writings so
        > that
        > > > non
        > > > > > initiates would not understand his teachings.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > It is difficult to separate the man from the myth. How much
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > > "great beast" persona was created to keep a degree of mystery
        > or
        > > > just
        > > > > > media frenzy at his nonconformance is difficult to judge.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > After all one mans satan is another mans savior.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > warm regards
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Martin
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > > > > From: mzh_warthog <mzh_warthog@y...>
        > > > > > > To: <GnosticThought@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:39 PM
        > > > > > > Subject: [GnosticThought] Re: 17/153
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Hi Daimonic,
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Perhaps your subconcious is different to mine.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Mine can be humble,arrogant,fearfull and conceited amongst
        > > > many
        > > > > > other
        > > > > > > > traits depending on which way the wind is blowing across
        > that
        > > > > > > > particular turbulent sea. Over the years I have learnt to
        > > > still
        > > > > > the
        > > > > > > > ocean and ride the storm when I cannot still it.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Do you not hold that through the fire of our desire on the
        > > > anvil
        > > > > > of
        > > > > > > > our will we forge the person that we would be?
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > As to meditiation being the one of the easiest paths to
        > self
        > > > > > deceit, I
        > > > > > > > would agree that you are correct, if that was your goal in
        > > > > > meditating
        > > > > > > > or the goal of your guide. ;-)
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > From what you say, I think that I walked your path for a
        > while
        > > > > > before
        > > > > > > > I took a right hand fork.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > D.W.T.W.I.T.H.O.T.L. - A.C. G.D.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Regards
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > Martin
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > Greetings again,
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > --- Ginosko <Ginosko@H...> wrote:
        > > > > > > > > > > MM John
        > > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > > Precisely. You are Buddha, I am Buddha, The person
        > > > > > > > > > > you replied to is Buddha.
        > > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > > Perhaps I am being a little cynical, but I think this
        > > > > > > > > > line of thought is a dangerous. Of course, we all have
        > > > > > > > > > the ability to be Buddha, Christ, Creator, Kether,
        > > > > > > > > > ect., obviously our Buddha lives within, but in
        > > > > > > > > > profound secrecy. We really don't know our Buddha yet,
        > > > > > > > > > and to say we are Buddha here and now, it seems
        > > > > > > > > > detrimental to one's humility -- and it has been my
        > > > > > > > > > experience that there is no point in self observation,
        > > > > > > > > > meditation, etc, without humility.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > True humility stems from within and is an act of the
        > > > > > Subconscious.
        > > > > > > > > One cannot try to become humble--one either is, or is
        > not.
        > > > If
        > > > > > one
        > > > > > > > > tries to become humble, then he is a poseur and not
        > > > something
        > > > > > > > > authentic; a liar--a deceiver.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > To say that one is a "Buddha", when he actually is a
        > Buddha,
        > > > is
        > > > > > not
        > > > > > > > > being arrogant--for he is only telling the Truth. This
        > is
        > > > not
        > > > > > an
        > > > > > > > act
        > > > > > > > > of arrogance, but simply stating a fact.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > Meditation, by the way, is one of the easiest pathways
        > to
        > > > > > > > self-deceit.
        > > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > > > daimonic666
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >
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