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Abbreviation from baptismal entry

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  • mikemctoo
    Hi, I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 29, 2011
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      Hi,

      I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church churchbook. I am in the process of translating the letter into English, and have been stumped by an abbreviation. I have checked numerous sources available to me to determine the meaning of the abbreviation but have thus far come up empty.

      The full entry written in German is as follows:

      *1833/8 8.1 Carl Hermann 9tes Kind (Geb.Sch. 30.4.50)

      the * is a symbol indicating that this is a baptismal entry, 1833 is the year, the 8 after the / indicates it is the 8th entry for the year, 8.1 indicates the baptism (or most likely the birthdate) of the child took place January 8th. The child's name is Carl Hermann [Härtel], and he was the 9th child. It is the abbreviations in the parenthesis that have me stumped, or at least one of them. I am pretty sure that the Geb. is an abbreviation for geboren or 'born' and the 30.4.50 is a date, April 30, 1850, however the abbreviation Sch. I cannot figure out.

      Was wondering if anyone on the board may have run across this abbreviation before and knows its meaning?

      Thank you.
    • Carolyn SCISM
      I don t know about your abbreviation, but if the baptism was 1833 how could the birth be 1850?  Could that be a death date.  I ve never seen a record like
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 29, 2011
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        I don't know about your abbreviation, but if the baptism was 1833 how could the birth be 1850?  Could that be a death date.  I've never seen a record like this, but have seen a death date listed under the baptism date in some evangelical records.

        --- On Wed, 6/29/11, mikemctoo <shamale@...> wrote:

        From: mikemctoo <shamale@...>
        Subject: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
        To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 1:31 PM

         
        Hi,

        I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church churchbook. I am in the process of translating the letter into English, and have been stumped by an abbreviation. I have checked numerous sources available to me to determine the meaning of the abbreviation but have thus far come up empty.

        The full entry written in German is as follows:

        *1833/8 8.1 Carl Hermann 9tes Kind (Geb.Sch. 30.4.50)

        the * is a symbol indicating that this is a baptismal entry, 1833 is the year, the 8 after the / indicates it is the 8th entry for the year, 8.1 indicates the baptism (or most likely the birthdate) of the child took place January 8th. The child's name is Carl Hermann [Härtel], and he was the 9th child. It is the abbreviations in the parenthesis that have me stumped, or at least one of them. I am pretty sure that the Geb. is an abbreviation for geboren or 'born' and the 30.4.50 is a date, April 30, 1850, however the abbreviation Sch. I cannot figure out.

        Was wondering if anyone on the board may have run across this abbreviation before and knows its meaning?

        Thank you.

      • Shamal Eladril
        Hi, Thank you for your response. I did not say or mean to imply that the birth of the individual was 1850. I do not know what the abbreviation is or what the
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 12, 2011
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          Hi,

          Thank you for your response.  I did not say or mean to imply that the birth of the individual was 1850.  I do not know what the abbreviation is or what the date may be, refer to, or mean, which is why I posted to the group hoping that someone else had run across this abbreviation before.  It is not clear to me that it is a death date either for that matter, and I rather doubt that it is.

          My best guess at this point is that the abbreviation and date may refer to when he became a "full citizen."  There were other entries in the full transcription of records that had the phrases such as "Freitag 1.Dez.offentlich mit ganzer Schule" and "Montag 28. fruh ganze Schule", which translate literally as "Friday, 1 December, publicly with the entire school" and "Monday 28th, early [morning] the entire school."  I do not believe that in the context of these death entries that Schule here means "school," because these phrases were used in death entries for Carl Hermann's parents.  I suspect the true translation of these phrases is something more like "public burial" or "public funeral" with Schule referring somehow to the citizenry or the public.  The reason for this belief is that I found an obscure synonym in a German-English dictionary for Schule meaning citizenship.  From this, I "guessed" that the abbreviation Sch. might have been an abbreviation for Schule, but in this case referring to citizenship, so I am guessing the abbreviation may refer to the date that Carl Hermann because a full citizen of the town of Glauchau, but I have no way of being sure.

          The problem with using a modern dictionary to translate words and phrases that are more than 160 years old is that the meanings (and context) of words and phrases changes with time. It would be nice if a German-English dictionary 150 years old were available to better clarify word meanings that may have changed with time.  I simply do not know what "Schule" may have meant in the context of a death entry more than 160 years old or if the meaning then even remotely corresponds to the contemporary meaning.

          In any case, my best guess at present is that it refers to a date he became a full citizen, and given his birthdate being in 1833, and the year of the abbreviation being 1850, he would have been around 17 years old at the time, so its entirely possible that that would be the age of full citizenship, but again, I do not know enough about that history to be sure.

          I do appreciate your response and taking the time to look at it.

          Peter Lessing


          To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
          From: chscism@...
          Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:18:10 -0700
          Subject: Re: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry

           
          I don't know about your abbreviation, but if the baptism was 1833 how could the birth be 1850?  Could that be a death date.  I've never seen a record like this, but have seen a death date listed under the baptism date in some evangelical records.

          --- On Wed, 6/29/11, mikemctoo <shamale@...> wrote:

          From: mikemctoo <shamale@...>
          Subject: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
          To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 1:31 PM

           
          Hi,

          I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church churchbook. I am in the process of translating the letter into English, and have been stumped by an abbreviation. I have checked numerous sources available to me to determine the meaning of the abbreviation but have thus far come up empty.

          The full entry written in German is as follows:

          *1833/8 8.1 Carl Hermann 9tes Kind (Geb.Sch. 30.4.50)

          the * is a symbol indicating that this is a baptismal entry, 1833 is the year, the 8 after the / indicates it is the 8th entry for the year, 8.1 indicates the baptism (or most likely the birthdate) of the child took place January 8th. The child's name is Carl Hermann [Härtel], and he was the 9th child. It is the abbreviations in the parenthesis that have me stumped, or at least one of them. I am pretty sure that the Geb. is an abbreviation for geboren or 'born' and the 30.4.50 is a date, April 30, 1850, however the abbreviation Sch. I cannot figure out.

          Was wondering if anyone on the board may have run across this abbreviation before and knows its meaning?

          Thank you.


        • mikemctoo
          I am going to take a shot at answering my own query. The following just dawned on me, that the abbreviation. Geb. Sch. may refer to Geburtsschein, which means
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 4, 2011
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            I am going to take a shot at answering my own query. The following just dawned on me, that the abbreviation. Geb. Sch. may refer to Geburtsschein, which means "birth certificate." I have a few copies of birth certificates that I found at the family history library on microfilm from Crimmitschau, Saxony, and managed to link at least two of them to family members (not in my direct line). The birth certificates were usually filed with the municipality when the person reached age 19, which I am guessing was the age of majority back then.

            The birth certificates had signatures of pastors on them and a stamp from the local Evangelical Lutheran church in Crimmitschau, which I assume was required by the municipality as "proof of birth and/or baptism."

            In any event, I was reviewing the images of those birth certificates the other day based on some new data I had come across, and noted the title on the certifications was "Geburtsschein", and the light bulb went off. Given the date being 1850 when this individual would have been around 17, is probably a reasonable assumption.


            --- In GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com, Shamal Eladril <shamale@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > Thank you for your response. I did not say or mean to imply that the birth of the individual was 1850. I do not know what the abbreviation is or what the date may be, refer to, or mean, which is why I posted to the group hoping that someone else had run across this abbreviation before. It is not clear to me that it is a death date either for that matter, and I rather doubt that it is.
            >
            > My best guess at this point is that the abbreviation and date may refer to when he became a "full citizen." There were other entries in the full transcription of records that had the phrases such as "Freitag 1.Dez.offentlich mit ganzer Schule" and "Montag 28. fruh ganze Schule", which translate literally as "Friday, 1 December, publicly with the entire school" and "Monday 28th, early [morning] the entire school." I do not believe that in the context of these death entries that Schule here means "school," because these phrases were used in death entries for Carl Hermann's parents. I suspect the true translation of these phrases is something more like "public burial" or "public funeral" with Schule referring somehow to the citizenry or the public. The reason for this belief is that I found an obscure synonym in a German-English dictionary for Schule meaning citizenship. From this, I "guessed" that the abbreviation Sch. might have been an abbreviation for Schule, but in this case referring to citizenship, so I am guessing the abbreviation may refer to the date that Carl Hermann because a full citizen of the town of Glauchau, but I have no way of being sure.
            >
            > The problem with using a modern dictionary to translate words and phrases that are more than 160 years old is that the meanings (and context) of words and phrases changes with time. It would be nice if a German-English dictionary 150 years old were available to better clarify word meanings that may have changed with time. I simply do not know what "Schule" may have meant in the context of a death entry more than 160 years old or if the meaning then even remotely corresponds to the contemporary meaning.
            >
            > In any case, my best guess at present is that it refers to a date he became a full citizen, and given his birthdate being in 1833, and the year of the abbreviation being 1850, he would have been around 17 years old at the time, so its entirely possible that that would be the age of full citizenship, but again, I do not know enough about that history to be sure.
            >
            > I do appreciate your response and taking the time to look at it.
            >
            > Peter Lessing
            >
            > To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
            > From: chscism@...
            > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:18:10 -0700
            > Subject: Re: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
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            > I don't know about your abbreviation, but if the baptism was 1833 how could the birth be 1850? Could that be a death date. I've never seen a record like this, but have seen a death date listed under the baptism date in some evangelical records.
            >
            > --- On Wed, 6/29/11, mikemctoo <shamale@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: mikemctoo <shamale@...>
            > Subject: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
            > To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 1:31 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church churchbook. I am in the process of translating the letter into English, and have been stumped by an abbreviation. I have checked numerous sources available to me to determine the meaning of the abbreviation but have thus far come up empty.
            >
            > The full entry written in German is as follows:
            >
            > *1833/8 8.1 Carl Hermann 9tes Kind (Geb.Sch. 30.4.50)
            >
            > the * is a symbol indicating that this is a baptismal entry, 1833 is the year, the 8 after the / indicates it is the 8th entry for the year, 8.1 indicates the baptism (or most likely the birthdate) of the child took place January 8th. The child's name is Carl Hermann [Härtel], and he was the 9th child. It is the abbreviations in the parenthesis that have me stumped, or at least one of them. I am pretty sure that the Geb. is an
            > abbreviation for geboren or 'born' and the 30.4.50 is a date, April 30, 1850, however the abbreviation Sch. I cannot figure out.
            >
            > Was wondering if anyone on the board may have run across this abbreviation before and knows its meaning?
            >
            > Thank you.
            >
          • PATRICIA VON ZUR MUEHLEN
            Hi, Today I was reading a list of German abbreviations and I thought of this query and wondered if we would ever have an answer. I think you just may have the
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 4, 2011
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              Hi,

              Today I was reading a list of German abbreviations and I thought of this query and wondered if we would ever have an answer.
              I think you just may have the answer! Thank you.

              What I learned today is the Wwe denotes "widow."

              Thank you again.

              Pat




              To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
              From: shamale@...
              Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:07:31 +0000
              Subject: [GermanSpecialinterest] Re: Abbreviation from baptismal entry

               
              I am going to take a shot at answering my own query. The following just dawned on me, that the abbreviation. Geb. Sch. may refer to Geburtsschein, which means "birth certificate." I have a few copies of birth certificates that I found at the family history library on microfilm from Crimmitschau, Saxony, and managed to link at least two of them to family members (not in my direct line). The birth certificates were usually filed with the municipality when the person reached age 19, which I am guessing was the age of majority back then.

              The birth certificates had signatures of pastors on them and a stamp from the local Evangelical Lutheran church in Crimmitschau, which I assume was required by the municipality as "proof of birth and/or baptism."

              In any event, I was reviewing the images of those birth certificates the other day based on some new data I had come across, and noted the title on the certifications was "Geburtsschein", and the light bulb went off. Given the date being 1850 when this individual would have been around 17, is probably a reasonable assumption.

              --- In GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com, Shamal Eladril <shamale@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > Thank you for your response. I did not say or mean to imply that the birth of the individual was 1850. I do not know what the abbreviation is or what the date may be, refer to, or mean, which is why I posted to the group hoping that someone else had run across this abbreviation before. It is not clear to me that it is a death date either for that matter, and I rather doubt that it is.
              >
              > My best guess at this point is that the abbreviation and date may refer to when he became a "full citizen." There were other entries in the full transcription of records that had the phrases such as "Freitag 1.Dez.offentlich mit ganzer Schule" and "Montag 28. fruh ganze Schule", which translate literally as "Friday, 1 December, publicly with the entire school" and "Monday 28th, early [morning] the entire school." I do not believe that in the context of these death entries that Schule here means "school," because these phrases were used in death entries for Carl Hermann's parents. I suspect the true translation of these phrases is something more like "public burial" or "public funeral" with Schule referring somehow to the citizenry or the public. The reason for this belief is that I found an obscure synonym in a German-English dictionary for Schule meaning citizenship. From this, I "guessed" that the abbreviation Sch. might have been an abbreviation for Schule, but in this case referring to citizenship, so I am guessing the abbreviation may refer to the date that Carl Hermann because a full citizen of the town of Glauchau, but I have no way of being sure.
              >
              > The problem with using a modern dictionary to translate words and phrases that are more than 160 years old is that the meanings (and context) of words and phrases changes with time. It would be nice if a German-English dictionary 150 years old were available to better clarify word meanings that may have changed with time. I simply do not know what "Schule" may have meant in the context of a death entry more than 160 years old or if the meaning then even remotely corresponds to the contemporary meaning.
              >
              > In any case, my best guess at present is that it refers to a date he became a full citizen, and given his birthdate being in 1833, and the year of the abbreviation being 1850, he would have been around 17 years old at the time, so its entirely possible that that would be the age of full citizenship, but again, I do not know enough about that history to be sure.
              >
              > I do appreciate your response and taking the time to look at it.
              >
              > Peter Lessing
              >
              > To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
              > From: chscism@...
              > Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:18:10 -0700
              > Subject: Re: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              > I don't know about your abbreviation, but if the baptism was 1833 how could the birth be 1850? Could that be a death date. I've never seen a record like this, but have seen a death date listed under the baptism date in some evangelical records.
              >
              > --- On Wed, 6/29/11, mikemctoo <shamale@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: mikemctoo <shamale@...>
              > Subject: [GermanSpecialinterest] Abbreviation from baptismal entry
              > To: GermanSpecialinterest@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 1:31 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > I recently received a letter in response to one I wrote to a church in Glauchau, Saxony, requesting transcriptions of entries from the St. Georgen Church churchbook. I am in the process of translating the letter into English, and have been stumped by an abbreviation. I have checked numerous sources available to me to determine the meaning of the abbreviation but have thus far come up empty.
              >
              > The full entry written in German is as follows:
              >
              > *1833/8 8.1 Carl Hermann 9tes Kind (Geb.Sch. 30.4.50)
              >
              > the * is a symbol indicating that this is a baptismal entry, 1833 is the year, the 8 after the / indicates it is the 8th entry for the year, 8.1 indicates the baptism (or most likely the birthdate) of the child took place January 8th. The child's name is Carl Hermann [Härtel], and he was the 9th child. It is the abbreviations in the parenthesis that have me stumped, or at least one of them. I am pretty sure that the Geb. is an
              > abbreviation for geboren or 'born' and the 30.4.50 is a date, April 30, 1850, however the abbreviation Sch. I cannot figure out.
              >
              > Was wondering if anyone on the board may have run across this abbreviation before and knows its meaning?
              >
              > Thank you.
              >


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