Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: OT canary discussions

Expand Messages
  • Terry Martin
    Inte said ... show ... Do you think the Isabel Zebra Finch might represent this locus as well? It is definitely albinistic, but has no reduction of
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 1, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Inte said

      >The phaeo is in fact the NSL ino in canaries but since phaeomelanin
      >production is much less dependent on tyrosinase activity these birds do
      show
      >phaeomelanin. That is where the name came from.

      Do you think the Isabel Zebra Finch might represent this locus as
      well? It is definitely albinistic, but has no reduction of phaeoemelanin at
      all.

      Does the sex-linked ino locus reduce phaeomelanin equally with
      eumelanin? You mentioned four sex-linked loci - how do the 'other' two
      (ivory and pastel) alter plumage colour? These sound like they are unique to
      passerines, at least not found in psittacines.


      >I think the Y-locus is the most likely candidate. The "blue" locus seems to
      >be responsible for "switching"
      >from phaeo- to eumelanin but I am still working on that.
      >The recessive white locus acts on liver function and causes a vitamin A
      >deficiency. The dominant white locus suppresses the production of the
      yellow
      >lipochrome and is considered lethal in homozygous state.

      So the loci you call 'whites' of various types all suppress
      lipochromes? Y for yellow locus? If the allele is dominant, why would this
      correspond to the blue locus and its alleles in parrots?


      >I am also not happy with that but the use of the term brown is very deeply
      >rooted in The Netherlands and Belgium and it will be very hard to change
      that.
      >Scientists also use cinnamon in canaries instead of brown.


      I believe the Zebra Finch breeders in a number of European countries
      called the equivalent in that species by the name Brown (Bruin) until
      recently, but have all changed to the Internationally acceptable term of
      fawn (white ground cinnamon) of their own accord. So maybe there is long
      term hope in canaries as well.

      Do you have any idea as to how consistently these names are being
      applied to colour morphs in other species of finches in Europe? I am
      particularly thinking of the colour morphs on various Van Keulen posters.


      Terry
    • Inte Onsman
      ... The Isabel Zebra Finch could be a possible candidate especially because phaeomelanin is almost unaffected. The sex-linked ino locus seems to reduce
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        At 12:09 2-04-01 +1000, you wrote:
        >Inte said
        >
        >>The phaeo is in fact the NSL ino in canaries but since phaeomelanin
        >>production is much less dependent on tyrosinase activity these birds do
        >show
        >>phaeomelanin. That is where the name came from.
        >
        > Do you think the Isabel Zebra Finch might represent this locus as
        >well? It is definitely albinistic, but has no reduction of phaeoemelanin at
        >all.
        >
        > Does the sex-linked ino locus reduce phaeomelanin equally with
        >eumelanin? You mentioned four sex-linked loci - how do the 'other' two
        >(ivory and pastel) alter plumage colour? These sound like they are unique to
        >passerines, at least not found in psittacines.


        The Isabel Zebra Finch could be a possible candidate especially because
        phaeomelanin is almost unaffected.

        The sex-linked ino locus seems to reduce phaeomelanin even more than
        eumelanin but since phaeomelanin granules are smaller than eumelanin
        granules they seem to "disappear" completely but in fact the reduction of
        both these melanins is equal. Its behaviour towards the cinnamon locus is
        the same as in psittacine birds.
        In a brown satinet (cinnamon ino), brown is visible and in a brown agate
        (cinnamon pallid) the brown is even more visible. The brown agate is the
        most popular and is (unfortunately) called Isabel.

        Ivory and pastel are indeed unique in passerines. Sex linked Ivory is
        altering the structure of feather keratin
        resulting in an Ivory shade best seen in white canaries but also visible in
        other colours.
        Pastel seems to be the "dilute" locus in canaries but I haven't been able to
        find the same caracteristics in feather cross sections as in psittacine
        birds. The sex-linked "greywing" could be allelic with the sex-linked
        pastel, however, there are breeders who claim that it is a selective form of
        pastel. I am trying to sort this out. The autosomal recessive "opal" locus
        and its "onyx" allele do show some similar caracteristics with the dilute
        locus in psittacine birds (that is under the microscope), however, this
        matter is still under investigation.






        Inte Onsman
        MUTAVI Research & Advice Group

        Mail: ionsman@...
        Internet: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl
        http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh
        Dutch Pages: http://www.life-research.nl
      • Terry Martin
        Inte said ... To which locus would you assign the Zebra Finch mutation known as Chestnut Flanked White (CFW)? There are numerous alleles of this locus in
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 2, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Inte said


          >The sex-linked ino locus seems to reduce phaeomelanin even more than
          >eumelanin but since phaeomelanin granules are smaller than eumelanin
          >granules they seem to "disappear" completely but in fact the reduction of
          >both these melanins is equal. Its behaviour towards the cinnamon locus is
          >the same as in psittacine birds.

          To which locus would you assign the Zebra Finch mutation known as
          Chestnut Flanked White (CFW)? There are numerous alleles of this locus in
          Zebras and many show strong albinism, yet non are true ino alleles.
          phaeomelanin is reduced at a much slower rate cw eumelanin. It does not
          sound like it correlates to the other two sex-linked loci of canaries. And
          demonstrates similar interaction with the cinnamon locus as we expect from
          parrots.

          >Ivory and pastel are indeed unique in passerines. Sex linked Ivory is
          >altering the structure of feather keratin
          >resulting in an Ivory shade best seen in white canaries but also visible in
          >other colours.

          How do you describe this effect both microscopically and
          phenotypically?

          >Pastel seems to be the "dilute" locus in canaries but I haven't been able
          to
          >find the same caracteristics in feather cross sections as in psittacine
          >birds. The sex-linked "greywing" could be allelic with the sex-linked
          >pastel, however, there are breeders who claim that it is a selective form
          of
          >pastel. I am trying to sort this out. The autosomal recessive "opal" locus
          >and its "onyx" allele do show some similar caracteristics with the dilute
          >locus in psittacine birds (that is under the microscope), however, this
          >matter is still under investigation.


          Is there any idea of the crossover values for these loci yet. You
          mentioned you thought cinnamon and ino were further apart, are the other two
          close enough together for breeders to note linkage?

          Terry
        • Inte Onsman
          ... I did some research on Zebra Finch feathers about five years ago and wrote a chapter dealing with feather structure for a new Zebra Finch book in my
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 3, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            At 11:20 3-04-01 +1000, you wrote:
            >Inte said
            >
            >
            >>The sex-linked ino locus seems to reduce phaeomelanin even more than
            >>eumelanin but since phaeomelanin granules are smaller than eumelanin
            >>granules they seem to "disappear" completely but in fact the reduction of
            >>both these melanins is equal. Its behaviour towards the cinnamon locus is
            >>the same as in psittacine birds.
            >
            > To which locus would you assign the Zebra Finch mutation known as
            >Chestnut Flanked White (CFW)? There are numerous alleles of this locus in
            >Zebras and many show strong albinism, yet non are true ino alleles.
            >phaeomelanin is reduced at a much slower rate cw eumelanin. It does not
            >sound like it correlates to the other two sex-linked loci of canaries. And
            >demonstrates similar interaction with the cinnamon locus as we expect from
            >parrots.


            I did some research on Zebra Finch feathers about five years ago and wrote a
            chapter dealing with feather structure for a new Zebra Finch book in my
            country but unfortunately I haven't been able to study its genetics
            extensively. However, I do understand that it is a complicated bird. I would
            like to go into this but I shall have to finish my present research on
            Indian Ringnecks and Agapornis first. I also don't know what mutations
            actually are present in Australia compared to those in Europe. If you can
            provide me with the information available I wil be able to compare with the
            books I have and work something out as soon as time permits.




            >
            >>Ivory and pastel are indeed unique in passerines. Sex linked Ivory is
            >>altering the structure of feather keratin
            >>resulting in an Ivory shade best seen in white canaries but also visible in
            >>other colours.
            >
            > How do you describe this effect both microscopically and
            >phenotypically?


            Microscopically it seems that the "ivory" cortex is thicker and less
            transparent. Phenotypically it displays a more lemon like colour best seen
            in yellow canaries.



            >
            >>Pastel seems to be the "dilute" locus in canaries but I haven't been able
            >to
            >>find the same caracteristics in feather cross sections as in psittacine
            >>birds. The sex-linked "greywing" could be allelic with the sex-linked
            >>pastel, however, there are breeders who claim that it is a selective form
            >of
            >>pastel. I am trying to sort this out. The autosomal recessive "opal" locus
            >>and its "onyx" allele do show some similar caracteristics with the dilute
            >>locus in psittacine birds (that is under the microscope), however, this
            >>matter is still under investigation.
            >
            >
            > Is there any idea of the crossover values for these loci yet. You
            >mentioned you thought cinnamon and ino were further apart, are the other two
            >close enough together for breeders to note linkage?



            Nothing is known about crossover values for sex-linked loci in canaries as
            far as I am aware. I am trying to change that and I am trying to find some
            reliable breeders to help me in this respect. I am still doing it for
            Budgerigars and would like to compare my results with Canaries for a start.
            This information could help us in understanding the differences between
            psittacine and passerine species.


            Inte Onsman
            MUTAVI Research & Advice Group

            Mail: ionsman@...
            Internet: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl
            http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh
            Dutch Pages: http://www.life-research.nl
          • Terry Martin
            Inte There were two other questions from one of my previous messages that you may have missed ... Regards Terry
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 3, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Inte

              There were two other questions from one of my previous messages that
              you may have missed

              > So the loci you call 'whites' of various types all suppress
              >lipochromes? Y for yellow locus? If the allele is dominant, why would this
              >correspond to the blue locus and its alleles in parrots?


              > Do you have any idea as to how consistently these names are being
              >applied to colour morphs in other species of finches in Europe? I am
              >particularly thinking of the colour morphs on various Van Keulen posters.


              Regards

              Terry
            • Terry Martin
              Inte ... Thinking about this statement further, I am concerned. Tyrosinase is the starting point for both melanin pathways, therefore surely phaeomelanin
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 4, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Inte

                >>The phaeo is in fact the NSL ino in canaries but since phaeomelanin
                >>production is much less dependent on tyrosinase activity these birds do
                >show
                >>phaeomelanin. That is where the name came from.


                Thinking about this statement further, I am concerned. Tyrosinase is
                the starting point for both melanin pathways, therefore surely phaeomelanin
                should be interrupted equally with eumelanin? How can you explain the
                differential effects? If a locus preferentially effects eumelanin over
                phaeomelanin, then logically it must act at a later stage in the process?

                I suppose, if the mutant allele was a partially effective allele (as
                opposed a totally inactive ino allele) then maybe the reduced levels of
                melanin production may be preferentially directed down the phaeomelanin
                pathway. This could explain things. It may also explain the situation in
                Zebra Finches with the CFW alleles I mentioned.

                If this were the case, then a mutant allele effecting the control
                switch between eumelanin and phaeomelanin (the 'blue' canary allele you
                mentioned) combined with these par-ino alleles would produce a phenotype not
                only without phaeomelanin, but with eumelanin increased above that in the
                par-ino phenotype alone (the redirected phaeomelanin). Does this happen?

                Terry
              • Inte Onsman
                ... Tyrosinase is a catalytic agent which interferes in the beginning of melanogenesis. In mammals tyrosinase interferes even a second time almost at the end
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 9, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  At 17:02 4-04-01 +1000, you wrote:
                  >Inte
                  >
                  >>>The phaeo is in fact the NSL ino in canaries but since phaeomelanin
                  >>>production is much less dependent on tyrosinase activity these birds do
                  >>show
                  >>>phaeomelanin. That is where the name came from.
                  >
                  >
                  > Thinking about this statement further, I am concerned. Tyrosinase is
                  >the starting point for both melanin pathways, therefore surely phaeomelanin
                  >should be interrupted equally with eumelanin? How can you explain the
                  >differential effects? If a locus preferentially effects eumelanin over
                  >phaeomelanin, then logically it must act at a later stage in the process?


                  Tyrosinase is a catalytic agent which interferes in the beginning of
                  melanogenesis. In mammals tyrosinase interferes even a second time almost at
                  the end of the pathway in order to complete the process.
                  In birds tyrosinase only acts in the beginning of melanogenesis, the further
                  proceeding of the process, that is for eumelanin, takes place spontaneously.
                  No second interference of tyrosinase is necessary in birds to finish the
                  complete process. That is a significant difference between birds and mammals.
                  In order to produce phaeomelanin, high levels of sulfhydryl compounds within
                  melanocytes are necessary. It is known that sulfhydryl compounds inhibit the
                  action of tyrosinase (in mammals) and thereby reduce the amount of melanin.
                  The change in the melanin synthesis in phaeomelanin containing feathers is
                  "induced" from the feather follicle
                  tissue. The locus that is responsible for this "switch", controls the uptake
                  of sulfhydryl compounds by melanocytes. Psittacine birds do not have such
                  "swich" and they obviously solved the problem by developing red and yellow
                  psittacines including a spongy zone in their feather barbs.
                  The most important compound for developing phaeomelanin in canaries is
                  cysteine which is unaffected and present in normal amounts in a/a birds (NSL
                  inos).
                  It seems that the NSL inos in passerine birds often demonstrate that
                  tyrosinase activity starts AFTER switching to eumelanogenesis.


                  >
                  > I suppose, if the mutant allele was a partially effective allele (as
                  >opposed a totally inactive ino allele) then maybe the reduced levels of
                  >melanin production may be preferentially directed down the phaeomelanin
                  >pathway. This could explain things. It may also explain the situation in
                  >Zebra Finches with the CFW alleles I mentioned.
                  >
                  > If this were the case, then a mutant allele effecting the control
                  >switch between eumelanin and phaeomelanin (the 'blue' canary allele you
                  >mentioned) combined with these par-ino alleles would produce a phenotype not
                  >only without phaeomelanin, but with eumelanin increased above that in the
                  >par-ino phenotype alone (the redirected phaeomelanin). Does this happen?


                  I am not sure if this actually happens. I am not very familiar with the CFW
                  alleles in Zebrafinches.
                  I need more information about these alleles and their phenotypes.




                  Inte Onsman
                  MUTAVI Research & Advice Group

                  Mail: ionsman@...
                  Internet: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl
                  http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh
                  Dutch Pages: http://www.life-research.nl
                • Inte Onsman
                  ... The dominant white locus is obviously acting as a suppressor. The yellow lipochrome is almost completely suppressed but small traces of yellow can be
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 9, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    At 11:16 4-04-01 +1000, you wrote:
                    >Inte
                    >
                    > There were two other questions from one of my previous messages that
                    >you may have missed
                    >
                    >> So the loci you call 'whites' of various types all suppress
                    >>lipochromes? Y for yellow locus? If the allele is dominant, why would this
                    >>correspond to the blue locus and its alleles in parrots?


                    The dominant white locus is obviously acting as a suppressor. The yellow
                    lipochrome is almost completely suppressed but small traces of yellow can be
                    observed in the plumage.
                    I am not yet sure if the Yellow locus is the equivalent of the blue locus in
                    psittacine birds. I am still working on that. There are only three "good"
                    books in The Netherlands about canaries. All three contain erronous
                    information and symbolism is a mess. I don't breed canaries myself so I have
                    to deal with the information I got from breeders and these books. It is very
                    hard to find out what is right and what is wrong but I am beginning to get
                    the picture.



                    >
                    >
                    >> Do you have any idea as to how consistently these names are being
                    >>applied to colour morphs in other species of finches in Europe? I am
                    >>particularly thinking of the colour morphs on various Van Keulen posters.


                    I haven't studied that yet but from what I learned so far I understand that
                    the canary community has developed its own culture full of myths and errors.
                    They often ignore crossing overs and don't recognize new alleles as such.
                    They use new symbols for alleles in stead of superscripts and many breeders
                    including canary judges consider the sex-linked brown-agate combo as a
                    separate mutation, that is they write and talk about it as a separate
                    mutation which is wrong.







                    >
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Terry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    Inte Onsman
                    MUTAVI Research & Advice Group

                    Mail: ionsman@...
                    Internet: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl
                    http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh
                    Dutch Pages: http://www.life-research.nl
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.