Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: new article on Fallows

Expand Messages
  • Deon Smith
    Inte said I already use bronze for Indiam ringnecks (the recessive cinnamon ) so I also thought of silver fallow for the grey types and bronze fallow for
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 24 3:41 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Inte said
       
      I already use "bronze" for Indiam ringnecks (the recessive "cinnamon") so I
      also
      thought of silver fallow for the grey types and bronze fallow for the brown
      types.


      An excellent suggestion Inte
       
      Deon
    • Deon Smith
      Terry asked ... which of my four groupings best fits these birds Inte is suggesting Dun for (recessive cinnamon)? In Australia the birds that are commonly
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 27 8:45 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Terry asked
         ... which of my four groupings best   fits these birds Inte is suggesting Dun fo(recessive cinnamon)? In   Australia the birds that are commonly misnamed 'recessive cinnamon' are   usually Faded mutations. 
         
         
        The Recessive Cinnamon or Greencinnamon as it is widely known is a rare bird and I myself have seen a specimen only once. In this country is according to my knowledge only one breeder working with this mutation. This breeder tells me it has a lime green plumage but with fawn-coloured flights and central tail feathers. This is in accordance with the picture in Bastiaan p.64. Other as the Buttercup, it retains the white iris and young males' heads are distinctly yellow, turning to a lesser degree more clear at the adult moult. Buttercup males' head colour prior to the adult moult is identical to the rest of the body plumage, turning into a glorious buttercup yellow, much more brilliant than in the case of the Greencinnamon. He has not bred females to date.
         
        When considering a category for it according to Terry's classification, by looking at the photo in Bastiaan and considering the depth of fawn in its flights and the black neck ring, I would say Grey brown. Bastiaan however describes the neck ring as being grey/pink.
         
        The breeder promised me photos (to be published here) and feathers (for Inte) by next weekend.
         
        Deon
         

               


      • Scott
        ... To aid in language clarification ......... In american English (I realize this is a misnomer at times :o) both ashen and smoky are related to fire and,
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Terry Martin wrote:
          Smokey makes me think more brownish, which the 'grey' fallows are definitely not. I liked Ashen Fallow from your list.

          What do others think?

          To aid in language clarification .........

          In american English (I realize this is a misnomer at times  :o) both ashen and smoky are related to fire and, therefore, imply a grey rather than brown appearance.  From the American Heritage Dictionary (another misnomer):  Ashen - Resembling ashes, as in color.  Smoky - Resembling or similar to smoke in color.  Further, ashen is more often used to describe a light grey and smoky a more medium or darker grey.

          The connotation of ashen, in general, is negative (ill appearing) and the connotation of smoky, in general, is not.  So, I would favor smoky in this part of the world and believe it would be more accepted by sales conscious breeders in the US.
           

          Scott Doak

          Exotic Flock Aviary
          http://www.exoticflock.com

          Advisory Board
          Aviculture Microbiology Foundation Inc.
          http://www.afa.birds.org/clublist/national.html
           

        • Clive Hesford
          Posted on behalf of Deon Smith who is having technical trouble. Terry asked ... which of my four groupings best fits these birds Inte is suggesting Dun for
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Posted on behalf of Deon Smith who is having technical trouble.

            Terry asked
            ... which of my four groupings best fits these birds Inte is
            suggesting
            Dun for (recessive cinnamon)? In Australia the birds that are commonly
            misnamed 'recessive cinnamon' are usually Faded mutations.

            The Recessive Cinnamon or Greencinnamon as it is widely known is a rare
            bird and I myself have seen a specimen only once. In this country is
            according to my knowledge only one breeder working with this mutation. This
            breeder tells me it has a lime green plumage but with fawn-coloured flights
            and central tail feathers. This is in accordance with the picture in
            Bastiaan p.64. Other as the Buttercup, it retains the white iris and young
            males' heads are distinctly yellow, turning to a lesser degree more clear
            at
            the adult moult. Buttercup males' head colour prior to the adult moult is
            identical to the rest of the body plumage, turning into a glorious
            buttercup
            yellow, much more brilliant than in the case of the Greencinnamon. He has
            not bred females to date.

            When considering a category for it according to Terry's classification, by
            looking at the photo in Bastiaan and considering the depth of fawn in its
            flights and the black neck ring, I would say Grey brown. Bastiaan however
            describes the neck ring as being grey/pink.

            The breeder promised me photos (to be published here) and feathers (for
            Inte) by next weekend.

            Deon

            Clive Hesford,
            Cheltenham, UK.

            Mail: CliveHesford@...
            Internet: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clivehesford/
          • Deon Smith
            I apologize for the delayed postings but these messages were sent many days ago and is only appearing now, I wonder why. Deon ... From: Deon Smith
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              I apologize for the delayed postings but these messages were sent many days ago and is only appearing now, I wonder why.
               
              Deon
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Deon Smith [mailto:deon@...]
              Sent: 24 February 2001 13:42
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: new article on Fallows

              Inte said
               
              I already use "bronze" for Indiam ringnecks (the recessive "cinnamon") so I
              also
              thought of silver fallow for the grey types and bronze fallow for the brown
              types.


              An excellent suggestion Inte
               
              Deon


              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Terry Martin
              Deon said ... at ... buttercup ... by ... If it fits the grey-brown fallow category, then I thought Dun was being suggested for this grouping. However,
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 1, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Deon said

                > The Recessive Cinnamon or Greencinnamon as it is widely known is a rare
                >bird and I myself have seen a specimen only once. In this country is
                >according to my knowledge only one breeder working with this mutation. This
                >breeder tells me it has a lime green plumage but with fawn-coloured flights
                >and central tail feathers. This is in accordance with the picture in
                >Bastiaan p.64. Other as the Buttercup, it retains the white iris and young
                >males' heads are distinctly yellow, turning to a lesser degree more clear
                at
                >the adult moult. Buttercup males' head colour prior to the adult moult is
                >identical to the rest of the body plumage, turning into a glorious
                buttercup
                >yellow, much more brilliant than in the case of the Greencinnamon. He has
                >not bred females to date.
                >
                > When considering a category for it according to Terry's classification,
                by
                >looking at the photo in Bastiaan and considering the depth of fawn in its
                >flights and the black neck ring, I would say Grey brown. Bastiaan however
                >describes the neck ring as being grey/pink.
                >
                > The breeder promised me photos (to be published here) and feathers (for
                >Inte) by next weekend.



                If it fits the 'grey-brown' fallow category, then I thought Dun was
                being suggested for this grouping. However, considering that it retains the
                white iris ring, this would move it away from the 'grey-brown' group that
                contains the 'English' Fallow budgie without an iris ring and instead align
                it with my 'brown' fallow group containing the 'German' Fallow budgie that
                retains the iris ring.

                If this is the group it fits in, then I could accept Bronze as a
                better naming alternative than my suggestion of 'beige'.


                Scott said

                >Ashen - Resembling ashes, as in color. Smoky - Resembling or similar to
                smoke in color. Further, ashen is more often used to describe a light grey
                and smoky a more medium or darker grey. <

                Ashen actually fits their colour by this description.

                To me I view smoke as grey-brown in colour? Maybe just the way I see
                it.

                >The connotation of ashen, in general, is negative (ill appearing) and the
                connotation of smoky, in general, is not. So, I would favor smoky in this
                part of the world and believe it would be more accepted by sales conscious
                breeders in the US. <

                Very good point and I would like to hear whether any one else would
                view Ashen as negative. I will ask the main breeder in Australia of the
                'grey' fallow Scarlets what he thinks of the alternatives.

                Terry
              • Deon Smith
                Terry said: .considering that it retains the white iris ring, this would move it away from the grey-brown group that contains the English Fallow budgie
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 2, 2001
                • 0 Attachment

                  Terry said:

                   

                  considering that it retains the white iris ring, this would move it away from the 'grey-brown' group that contains the 'English' Fallow budgie without an iris ring and instead align it with my 'brown' fallow group containing the 'German' Fallow budgie that retains the iris ring.

                   

                   

                  Terry I see you ignore the black of grey neck ring. The black neck ring should reflect changes in melanin quite closely and it this case there is no hint of brown in its final expression. But, the neck ring can do funny things; the Clearhead-cleartail has a definite brown melanin ring while the Buttercup (Clearhead Fallow) retains a pitch black ring, giving a magnificent contrast with the clear head.

                   

                  Deon

                   



                         

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Terry Martin [mailto:sbankvet@...]
                  Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:44 AM
                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: new article on Fallows

                   

                  Deon said

                  >  The Recessive Cinnamon or Greencinnamon as it is widely known is
                  a rare
                  >bird and I myself have seen a specimen only once. In this country is
                  >according to my knowledge only one breeder working with this mutation.
                  This
                  >breeder tells me it has a lime green plumage but with fawn-coloured
                  flights
                  >and central tail feathers. This is in accordance with the picture in
                  >Bastiaan p.64. Other as the Buttercup, it retains the white iris and
                  young
                  >males' heads are distinctly yellow, turning to a lesser degree more
                  clear
                  at
                  >the adult moult. Buttercup males' head colour prior to the adult moult
                  is
                  >identical to the rest of the body plumage, turning into a glorious
                  buttercup
                  >yellow, much more brilliant than in the case of the Greencinnamon. He
                  has
                  >not bred females to date.
                  >
                  >  When considering a category for it according to Terry's
                  classification,
                  by
                  >looking at the photo in Bastiaan and considering the depth of fawn in
                  its
                  >flights and the black neck ring, I would say Grey brown. Bastiaan
                  however
                  >describes the neck ring as being grey/pink.
                  >
                  >  The breeder promised me photos (to be published here) and
                  feathers (for
                  >Inte) by next weekend.



                          If it fits the 'grey-brown' fallow category, then I thought Dun was
                  being suggested for this grouping. However, considering that it retains the
                  white iris ring, this would move it away from the 'grey-brown' group that
                  contains the 'English' Fallow budgie without an iris ring and instead align
                  it with my 'brown' fallow group containing the 'German' Fallow budgie that
                  retains the iris ring.

                          If this is the group it fits in, then I could accept Bronze as a
                  better naming alternative than my suggestion of 'beige'.


                  Scott said

                  >Ashen - Resembling ashes, as in color.  Smoky - Resembling or
                  similar to
                  smoke in color.  Further, ashen is more often used to describe a light grey
                  and smoky a more medium or darker grey. <

                          Ashen actually fits their colour by this description.

                          To me I view smoke as grey-brown in colour? Maybe just the way I see
                  it.

                  >The connotation of ashen, in general, is negative (ill appearing) and
                  the
                  connotation of smoky, in general, is not.  So, I would favor smoky in this
                  part of the world and believe it would be more accepted by sales conscious
                  breeders in the US. <

                          Very good point and I would like to hear whether any one else would
                  view Ashen as negative. I will ask the main breeder in Australia of the
                  'grey' fallow Scarlets what he thinks of the alternatives.

                          Terry



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Terry Martin
                  Deon said ... no ... Deon, I didn t ignore it, but one observation I made whilst writing the article was that everyone sees these colours differently.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 2, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Deon said

                    >Terry I see you ignore the black of grey neck ring. The black neck ring
                    >should reflect changes in melanin quite closely and it this case there is
                    no
                    >hint of brown in its final expression. But, the neck ring can do funny
                    >things; the Clearhead-cleartail has a definite brown melanin ring while the
                    >Buttercup (Clearhead Fallow) retains a pitch black ring, giving a
                    >magnificent contrast with the clear head.


                    Deon, I didn't ignore it, but one observation I made whilst writing
                    the article was that everyone sees these colours differently. Therefore I
                    feel a feature like presence or absence of an iris ring is far more
                    significant to group the colours upon than colour shade alone. Unfortunately
                    few species have this feature, but Budgies and IRN do, therefore we can
                    align their colour morphs a little more accurately.

                    Maybe we need more than four categories for fallows, but we do not
                    have enough definite characters, knowledge or observations to make this
                    decision at this stage. I view my groupings as a 'work in progress',
                    providing a framework to try and sort this mess out.

                    So far there are only two things about all the fallow colour morphs
                    across species that I think we can be certain of. Firstly that the fallow
                    Pacific Parrotlet is not allelic with the NSL ino. Secondly, that the IRN
                    colour morph in question IS NOT the same as the English fallow Budgie (due
                    to differences in iris ring), therefore we cannot place them both in the
                    same category.

                    Should 'bronze' be used for the 'brown' fallows instead of 'beige',
                    or should it be reserved for a possible new category involving the IRN
                    colour morph?

                    Comments? Inte? others?

                    Terry
                  • Inte Onsman
                    ... We must be very careful by jumping into any conclusions. We must not underestimate the colour of the eyes in these albinotic colour morphs. In the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 4, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      At 08:50 3-3-2001 +1000, you wrote:
                      >Deon said
                      >
                      >>Terry I see you ignore the black of grey neck ring. The black neck ring
                      >>should reflect changes in melanin quite closely and it this case there is
                      >no
                      >>hint of brown in its final expression. But, the neck ring can do funny
                      >>things; the Clearhead-cleartail has a definite brown melanin ring while the
                      >>Buttercup (Clearhead Fallow) retains a pitch black ring, giving a
                      >>magnificent contrast with the clear head.
                      >
                      >
                      > Deon, I didn't ignore it, but one observation I made whilst writing
                      >the article was that everyone sees these colours differently. Therefore I
                      >feel a feature like presence or absence of an iris ring is far more
                      >significant to group the colours upon than colour shade alone. Unfortunately
                      >few species have this feature, but Budgies and IRN do, therefore we can
                      >align their colour morphs a little more accurately.
                      >
                      > Maybe we need more than four categories for fallows, but we do not
                      >have enough definite characters, knowledge or observations to make this
                      >decision at this stage. I view my groupings as a 'work in progress',
                      >providing a framework to try and sort this mess out.
                      >
                      > So far there are only two things about all the fallow colour morphs
                      >across species that I think we can be certain of. Firstly that the fallow
                      >Pacific Parrotlet is not allelic with the NSL ino. Secondly, that the IRN
                      >colour morph in question IS NOT the same as the English fallow Budgie (due
                      >to differences in iris ring), therefore we cannot place them both in the
                      >same category.
                      >
                      > Should 'bronze' be used for the 'brown' fallows instead of 'beige',
                      >or should it be reserved for a possible new category involving the IRN
                      >colour morph?
                      >
                      > Comments? Inte? others?
                      >
                      > Terry
                      >



                      We must be very careful by jumping into any conclusions. We must not
                      underestimate the colour of the eyes in these albinotic colour morphs.
                      In the clearhead fallow ringneck (FKA buttercup) the iris is affected just
                      as in the English fallow Budgerigar.
                      As I understood this type of fallow is hard to breed (high mortality rate,
                      inborn weakness etc.) this is also the case in English fallow Budgerigars
                      and most probably due to pleiotropic effects of this fallow locus.
                      The fact that the neckring is or seems to be black however, has to be
                      investigated under the microscope in refelected light with at least 30x
                      magnification. The brightness of the colours in the clearhead fallow fits in
                      the type of mutation and I already have cross sections made from this fallow.

                      Sometimes colour impressions in birds are not what we think they are.
                      Recently feathers from a Nandaya were send to me. The feathers were from a
                      new mutation called "cinnamon". The first "mutant" was a male so I already
                      had my doubts about that. Feathers taken from the head had a true brown
                      colour impression, however, when I observed these feathers in reflected
                      light with a 30x magnification I found traces of solid black eumelanin.
                      Feather barbs where the eumelanin was lacking, showed that the colour of the
                      "naked" feather keratin was cinnamon brown and I wonder where that came
                      from!! This bird was definitely not a cinnamon!!

                      Let us use "bronze" for the time being to designate "brown" fallow type and
                      "dun" for the greyish brown types.
                      One of our main goals should be to put up a figurous fight against all
                      misnomers and to learn e.g. ringneck breeders that the "recessive cinnamon"
                      is in fact a fallow and NOT a cinnamon.

                      Scientists recognize a type of "fallow" in Fowls very much like the German
                      fallow . They call that mutation simply "pink eyed dilution".


                      Inte

                      MUTAVI
                    • Terry Martin
                      Inte said ... I thought Deon said the iris was unaffected in the Buttercup ? ... Agreed. But we should also note that many so-called recessive cinnamon
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 4, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Inte said

                        >We must be very careful by jumping into any conclusions. We must not
                        >underestimate the colour of the eyes in these albinotic colour morphs.
                        >In the clearhead fallow ringneck (FKA buttercup) the iris is affected just
                        >as in the English fallow Budgerigar.

                        I thought Deon said the iris was unaffected in the 'Buttercup'?

                        >Let us use "bronze" for the time being to designate "brown" fallow type and
                        >"dun" for the greyish brown types.
                        >One of our main goals should be to put up a figurous fight against all
                        >misnomers and to learn e.g. ringneck breeders that the "recessive cinnamon"
                        >is in fact a fallow and NOT a cinnamon.


                        Agreed. But we should also note that many so-called 'recessive
                        cinnamon' colour morphs in other species are sometimes other albinistic
                        colours such as Faded. The best correlation for the term 'recessive
                        cinnamon' would be recessive albinistic colour morphs.

                        Terry
                      • Clive Hesford
                        Message text written by INTERNET:Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com Delayed message. Terry said, ... definitely not.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 10, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Message text written by INTERNET:Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com

                          Delayed message.

                          Terry said,

                          >>Smokey makes me think more brownish, which the 'grey' fallows are
                          definitely not.<<

                          Sorry, my silly remarks must have conditioned your view. You're probably
                          reminded of all the junk 'smoked' products spewed out in dyed shades of
                          false browny orangey yellowy colours by the modern food processing plants.

                          If you'd ever lived in a heavily industrialised area of Europe or America
                          you might have a different outlook. Everything (including the people) has
                          an overall grey look due to the ever present pall of smoke and soot.

                          Remember the oft quoted classic genetic example of rapid evolution in a
                          changed environment of the Peppered moth in response to the
                          industrialisation of my home city, Manchester.

                          Clive


                          Clive Hesford,
                          Cheltenham, UK.

                          Mail: CliveHesford@...
                          Internet: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clivehesford/
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.