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Re: surprises in the nest box

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  • Ken Yorke
    Quite correct Terry, seems both Ron and I slipped up. However....another explanation is that the green is not really a green but actually a single factor
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 1, 2001
      Quite correct Terry, seems both Ron and I slipped up.

      However....another explanation is that the "green" is not really a
      green but actually a single factor yellow face blue. Many of the
      these birds can look green or torquoise in colour, made worse by the
      fact that it is cinnamon and possibly even carrying violet.
      If it is a Yellowface(sf) then half offspring would be blue and half
      yellowface....no greens.

      Ken Yorke
      kyorke@...
      http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm


      --- In Genetics-Psittacine@y..., "Terry Martin" <sbankvet@b...> wrote:
      > Ken and Ron said
      >
      > >Sounds like it could be one of the Yellow Face mutations. This is
      > >possible if the Green hen is split for Yellowface.
      >
      >
      > But if this were the case, then how could one of the
      siblings be Sky
      > Blue ? Unless the parentage of the clutch is in question.
      >
      > Terry
    • Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRC
      Agreed - I only went by the description of the individual offspring, and not the total product of the pairing, although I still can t see what else this bird
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 1, 2001
        Agreed - I only went by the description of the individual offspring, and not
        the total product of the pairing, although I still can't see what else this
        bird can be except a yellowface. I wouldn't expect it to be so different
        from it's mother though, since most of these 'yellowfaces' with the yelow
        throughout the body have that same 'turquisey' look to their body colour
        even if cinnamon/violet etc. - unless she was yellowface (sf) -grey (sf) ??

        Some photo's would clear it all up if at all possible ???

        Ron
        ________________________________________
        Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRCVS..
        UK Veterinary Surgeon,
        RCVS certified in zoological medicine,
        Reesdavies@...
        http://website.lineone.net/~ron_vet
      • Bruce Read
        ... wasn t the green a Cinnamon Light Green, a bit difficult to mistake a SF YF Blue for that. Bruce. Canberra, ACT, Australia http://webone.com.au/~bread ICQ
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 1, 2001
          > Quite correct Terry, seems both Ron and I slipped up.
          >
          > However....another explanation is that the "green" is not really a
          > green but actually a single factor yellow face blue.

          wasn't the green a Cinnamon Light Green, a bit difficult to mistake a SF YF
          Blue for that.

          Bruce.
          Canberra, ACT, Australia

          http://webone.com.au/~bread
          ICQ 38216613
        • Shannon Barksdale
          Thanks for all the responses. The babies in question are all from the same clutch/same parents. I talked to the breeder and he s gotten similar babies from
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 1, 2001
            Thanks for all the responses. The babies in question are all from the same clutch/same parents. I talked to the breeder and he's gotten similar babies from them before and since moving them to the flight the pair is still feeding/grooming each other. I did miss one thing on the mom...she's also /blue.
             
            I've included pics of both parents, and the 3 babies with several views of the pied baby. I apologize for some of the baby photos since they just learned to fly and didn't want to sit still for the camera. The blue is also washed out and appears a bit more green then in reality. These should either help clear things up or really muddy the waters :)
             
             
            Shannon
          • Bruce Read
            Shannon, I will start the ball rolling. I don t think the hen is a light green cinnamon. My guess would be a Yellow Face Cinnamon Opaline Skyblue split blue
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 2, 2001
              Shannon,
               
              I will start the ball rolling. 
               
              I don't think the hen is a light green cinnamon.  My guess would be a Yellow Face Cinnamon Opaline Skyblue split blue possibly either greywing or clearwing as well.  The description is based on the photo and the breeding results.
               
              The young pied certainly looks like my YF Dom Skyblue Pieds, but the Cinnamon Violet Skyblue looks more like a Greywing Skyblue to me, though it may be due to colour variations in the photo.
               
              Bruce.
              Canberra, ACT, Australia
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 9:20 AM
              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box

              Thanks for all the responses. The babies in question are all from the same clutch/same parents. I talked to the breeder and he's gotten similar babies from them before and since moving them to the flight the pair is still feeding/grooming each other. I did miss one thing on the mom...she's also /blue.
               
              I've included pics of both parents, and the 3 babies with several views of the pied baby. I apologize for some of the baby photos since they just learned to fly and didn't want to sit still for the camera. The blue is also washed out and appears a bit more green then in reality. These should either help clear things up or really muddy the waters :)
               
               
              Shannon

            • Shannon Barksdale
              Thanks for the response Bruce. I ve got other Yellowface skyblues and they look nothing like the hen. She s way to green in color throughout her body to be a
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 2, 2001
                Thanks for the response Bruce. I've got other Yellowface skyblues and they look nothing like the hen. She's way to green in color throughout her body to be a blue series, but is split for blue. Opaline is a possiblity though.
                 
                The cinnamon violet skyblue didn't photograph very well, she/he's definitly violet from the front and the wing markings are tan not grey.
                 
                I've got a yf male that I'm thinking of pairing with a dom pied hen to see what I get. The one problem is neither has bred before and I know nothing of their genetics and also the hen may be skyblue grey or  double dark factor blue with possibly a dilute/greywing thrown in for fun. I'm hoping to pick up some hens that aren't so confusing genetically before doing much test breeding.
                 
                Shannon
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 4:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box

                Shannon,
                 
                I will start the ball rolling. 
                 
                I don't think the hen is a light green cinnamon.  My guess would be a Yellow Face Cinnamon Opaline Skyblue split blue possibly either greywing or clearwing as well.  The description is based on the photo and the breeding results.
                 
                The young pied certainly looks like my YF Dom Skyblue Pieds, but the Cinnamon Violet Skyblue looks more like a Greywing Skyblue to me, though it may be due to colour variations in the photo.
                 
                Bruce.
                Canberra, ACT, Australia
                 
              • Brett Doran & Sharon House
                Shannon, I am not convinced that the cock is a Violet Sky blue. If he was then no Violet (Violet Cobalt ie: one dark factor) could be produced. Only Light
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 4, 2001
                  Shannon,

                  I am not convinced that the cock is a Violet Sky blue. If he was then no
                  Violet (Violet Cobalt ie: one dark factor) could be produced. Only Light
                  Greens and Sky Blues would result from a Sky X Light Green pairing.

                  On looking at the photos it looks like the cock is a Dominant Pied Cobalt.
                  The hen is a Opaline Clearwing Lt Green and in no way does she appear to be
                  a visual single or double factor Yellowface of any of the three known
                  mutants. Beside I am sure we have all seen pictures of Rainbows, which if
                  the hen was a Yellowface and when added to her existing features she would
                  qualify as one.

                  Clearwing when in combination with Opaline and Light Green will give the
                  illusion of Brown markings. If the hen was a Cinnamon then the body colour
                  would half that it is now. The cheek patch would also be reduced in colour.
                  She has almost no spots and flight feathers are too pale for her to be a
                  Cinnamon.

                  Three of the photos appeared to be taken under incandescent light which will
                  tend to make any white areas appear yellow. Other colours will also be
                  altered. It does appear from the photos that the young bird has a yellow
                  suffusion similar to that of a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface.

                  This presents a problem because the only pairing that produces both Blues
                  and single factor Mutant 1 Yellowfaces would be for the cock to stay as he
                  is and the hen to be a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface split for Blue. Now
                  the problem is that a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface in adult feather
                  does not even come close to resembling a Light Green. Even if the hen was a
                  single factor Goldenface she would still not look like a Light Green. The
                  body
                  colour is a little hard to describe so I have put it into RGB and Hex codes.
                  All you have to do is use your own paint program and fill up a page using R
                  = 0; G = 255; B = 217 or #78FFF8 and this will give you some idea as to the
                  colour of a single factor Goldenface Sky Blue.

                  Shannon, were these birds bred on a colony system? The reason I ask is that
                  you mention you have a Yellowface cock and if he was present it is possible
                  for the hen to flirt with another cock and then subsequently lay eggs which
                  could have been fertilised by two different cocks.

                  Best Regards,
                  Sharon
                  Perth, Australia

                  Down Under Aviaries
                  http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html
                • Shannon Barksdale
                  thanks for the response Sharon, To answer some of the questions (and adding a few more). I really wish the pics had come out better. I wouldn t be surprised
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 4, 2001
                    thanks for the response Sharon,

                    To answer some of the questions (and adding a few more). I really wish the
                    pics had come out better. I wouldn't be surprised if the male is cobalt,
                    but he's got so little blue and its lighter then most of my cobalts its hard
                    to be sure, his cheek patches are very purple and he has a violet tinge near
                    his cheeks as well. The hen is definitely not the color you describe, but
                    could she be lt green and carrying a yellow factor as well as being /blue? I
                    don't see how else the baby could be what she is as well as the other
                    babies. Dad also has to be /cinnamon since two of the babies are cinnamons.
                    ARRGG ! this will be so much easier when I've gotten more test breeding done
                    and have some idea of what I have.

                    It's interesting what you say about clearwing showing up as tan when
                    combined with lt green and opaline. I have a clearwing male that I'll have
                    to try pairing her with to see what I get from them.

                    As for the colony. I got these birds from breeder and the babies were
                    already hatched so I know my yf male is not the father. The other males in
                    the cage at the time I got them (not sure how long they had been together)
                    were lutino and a cobalt opaline.

                    Thanks again,

                    Shannon
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Brett Doran & Sharon House" <houran@...>
                    To: "Genetics-Psittacine" <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 8:54 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box


                    > Shannon,
                    >
                    > I am not convinced that the cock is a Violet Sky blue. If he was then no
                    > Violet (Violet Cobalt ie: one dark factor) could be produced. Only Light
                    > Greens and Sky Blues would result from a Sky X Light Green pairing.
                    >
                    > On looking at the photos it looks like the cock is a Dominant Pied Cobalt.
                    > The hen is a Opaline Clearwing Lt Green and in no way does she appear to
                    be
                    > a visual single or double factor Yellowface of any of the three known
                    > mutants. Beside I am sure we have all seen pictures of Rainbows, which if
                    > the hen was a Yellowface and when added to her existing features she would
                    > qualify as one.
                    >
                    > Clearwing when in combination with Opaline and Light Green will give the
                    > illusion of Brown markings. If the hen was a Cinnamon then the body colour
                    > would half that it is now. The cheek patch would also be reduced in
                    colour.
                    > She has almost no spots and flight feathers are too pale for her to be a
                    > Cinnamon.
                    >
                    > Three of the photos appeared to be taken under incandescent light which
                    will
                    > tend to make any white areas appear yellow. Other colours will also be
                    > altered. It does appear from the photos that the young bird has a yellow
                    > suffusion similar to that of a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface.
                    >
                    > This presents a problem because the only pairing that produces both Blues
                    > and single factor Mutant 1 Yellowfaces would be for the cock to stay as he
                    > is and the hen to be a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface split for Blue.
                    Now
                    > the problem is that a single factor Mutant 1 Yellowface in adult feather
                    > does not even come close to resembling a Light Green. Even if the hen was
                    a
                    > single factor Goldenface she would still not look like a Light Green. The
                    > body
                    > colour is a little hard to describe so I have put it into RGB and Hex
                    codes.
                    > All you have to do is use your own paint program and fill up a page using
                    R
                    > = 0; G = 255; B = 217 or #78FFF8 and this will give you some idea as to
                    the
                    > colour of a single factor Goldenface Sky Blue.
                    >
                    > Shannon, were these birds bred on a colony system? The reason I ask is
                    that
                    > you mention you have a Yellowface cock and if he was present it is
                    possible
                    > for the hen to flirt with another cock and then subsequently lay eggs
                    which
                    > could have been fertilised by two different cocks.
                    >
                    > Best Regards,
                    > Sharon
                    > Perth, Australia
                    >
                    > Down Under Aviaries
                    > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html
                    >
                  • Bruce Read
                    ... Shannon, In this case I will put my money on the Lutino being the genetic dad of the YF. Possible a green/YF.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                      >
                      > As for the colony. I got these birds from breeder and the babies were
                      > already hatched so I know my yf male is not the father. The other males in
                      > the cage at the time I got them (not sure how long they had been together)
                      > were lutino and a cobalt opaline.
                      >

                      Shannon,

                      In this case I will put my money on the Lutino being the genetic dad of the
                      YF. Possible a green/YF.
                    • Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRC
                      ... Sorry to go back to the beginning somewhat on this one, but why couldn t one of the siblings be sky blue. From the pictures it looks to me like we ve got:
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                        >Sounds like it could be one of the Yellow Face mutations. This is
                        >possible if the Green hen is split for Yellowface.
                        >>>But if this were the case, then how could one of
                        >>the siblings be Sky Blue ? Unless the parentage
                        >>of the clutch is in question.

                        Sorry to go back to the beginning somewhat on this one, but why couldn't one
                        of the siblings be sky blue.

                        From the pictures it looks to me like we've got:

                        Father: Dominant pied blue (?sky)
                        Mother: Opaline Clearwing Light Green

                        Sibling 1 (the one in question): YF Dom Pied Blue
                        Sibling 2:Normal (?cinnamon) Blue

                        I'm not sure from the photos which one the third sibling was, but I don't
                        think it alters what I can see - and they are all possible without
                        suggesting 'adultery' on the part of the female.

                        I'm afraid I can't determine the shades of blue (dark/violet factors) on the
                        pictures, and so in this area a little mystery remains. To me, the father
                        certainly looks darker than a sky, but not as dark as the cobalt next to
                        him. In the picture of the two youngsters on a perch the 'yellow' one looks
                        like a yellowface sky, and the one next to him like a cobalt. However the
                        pictures could be very decieving on these points.

                        If we assume that the father carries no white or clearwing then we can
                        forget the clearwing part of the mothers makeup, since it won't affect the
                        visual appearance of the young, but be aware that they will all be carrying
                        these factors.

                        The cinnamon appearance in the youngsters could happen if the father is
                        split for cinnamon, regardless of the mother's makeup - however opaline
                        clearwing
                        and opaline cinnamon clearwing can be difficult to distinguish.

                        If the father is a SF dom pied then 50% of the young should be dominant
                        pied. This fits nicely with what we have got.

                        If the mother is split for blue then 50% should be blue series. We don't
                        have a big enough sample size yet to say this is wrong (i.e. no greens yet),
                        but certainly blue series birds aren't unexpected.

                        If the mother is a SF yellowface light green then 50% of the offspring
                        should be YF. Again this fits nicely with what we've got.

                        >This presents a problem because the only pairing
                        >that produces both Blues
                        >and single factor Mutant 1 Yellowfaces would be
                        >for the cock to stay as he
                        >is and the hen to be a single factor Mutant 1
                        >Yellowface split for Blue. Now
                        >the problem is that a single factor Mutant 1
                        >Yellowface in adult feather
                        >does not even come close to resembling a Light
                        >Green.

                        Sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding here.

                        The yellowface should be regarded as a separate factor from the green or
                        blue. Both blue series and green series birds can be yellowfaces, but there
                        will be visually little difference between a yellowface green and a
                        non-yellowface green -

                        A yellowface blue doesn't look like a light green - as has been pointed out
                        they have a very distinct turquoise colour (as does the youngster).

                        A yellowface light green split blue however looks exactly like a light
                        green - the yellowface is almost completely masked by the green - and I'm
                        convinced this is what she is. The yellow colouring spreading down the
                        mother's flight feathers may be an indication that the mother is YF - IME
                        many lutino/clearwing/Dom Pied green series birds don't have much yellow in
                        the primaries. I bred Lutinos for exhibition for several years and
                        deliberately introduced mutant 1 yellowface in order to get more
                        colour into the flights without altering the lutino appearance in any other
                        way.


                        Ron
                        ________________________________________
                        Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRCVS..
                        UK Veterinary Surgeon,
                        RCVS certified in zoological medicine,
                        Veterinary Adviser to the British Rabbit Council.
                        Reesdavies@...
                        http://website.lineone.net/~ron_vet
                      • Brett Doran & Sharon House
                        Shannon, I would ignore the violet tinge nears the cocks cheeks as this not a definite clue to the existence of Violet. The cheek patch however will be a very
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                          Shannon,

                          I would ignore the violet tinge nears the cocks cheeks as this not a
                          definite clue to the existence of Violet. The cheek patch however will be a
                          very purple and in Violet carrying birds it is a little deeper and tends to
                          lose some of its gloss. As for the hen, the photo was very good and she is a
                          Light Green. You yourself called her a light Green in your original post.
                          Are you getting the variety mixed up with the colour? The hen cannot be a
                          Light Green + Yellowface and split for Blue at the same time. The Green,
                          Yellowfaces and Blues are alleles of each other and cane only carry two of
                          any of the three gene at one time ie: Green + Green (visual Green); Green +
                          Yellowface (visual Green); Green + Blue (visual green); Yellowface + Blue
                          (visual Yellowface); Blue + Blue (visual Blue).

                          In regards to the Cinnamon Factor. Just suppose the hen was not Cinnamon and
                          the cock is Split for Cinnamon. All cocks produced would be Normal in
                          appearance and 50% of the hens produced would be Cinnamon and 50% would be
                          Normal. Question here is - what sex are the three youngsters?

                          Did the person from whom you got these birds colony breed them at the same
                          time the Lutino and Opaline Cobalt were present? Is it possible that the
                          Lutino may have been a Yellowface Albino?

                          Best Regards,
                          Sharon
                          Perth, Australia

                          Down Under Aviaries
                          http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html






                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Shannon Barksdale [mailto:barksdale4@...]
                          Sent: Monday, 5 February 2001 9:04
                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box

                          thanks for the response Sharon,

                          To answer some of the questions (and adding a few more). I really wish the
                          pics had come out better. I wouldn't be surprised if the male is cobalt,
                          but he's got so little blue and its lighter then most of my cobalts its hard
                          to be sure, his cheek patches are very purple and he has a violet tinge near
                          his cheeks as well. The hen is definitely not the color you describe, but
                          could she be lt green and carrying a yellow factor as well as being /blue? I
                          don't see how else the baby could be what she is as well as the other
                          babies. Dad also has to be /cinnamon since two of the babies are cinnamons.
                          ARRGG ! this will be so much easier when I've gotten more test breeding done
                          and have some idea of what I have.

                          It's interesting what you say about clearwing showing up as tan when
                          combined with lt green and opaline. I have a clearwing male that I'll have
                          to try pairing her with to see what I get from them.

                          As for the colony. I got these birds from breeder and the babies were
                          already hatched so I know my yf male is not the father. The other males in
                          the cage at the time I got them (not sure how long they had been together)
                          were lutino and a cobalt opaline.

                          Thanks again,
                        • Brett Doran & Sharon House
                          Ron Wrote:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<Sorry to go back to the beginning somewhat on this one, but why
                            couldn't one of the siblings be sky blue.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            Because if the hen is a Light Green split for Yellowface only Yellowfaces
                            and Greens can be produced.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<The cinnamon appearance in the youngsters could happen if the
                            father is split for cinnamon, regardless of the mother's makeup - however
                            opaline clearwing and opaline cinnamon clearwing can be difficult to
                            distinguish.>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            Cinnamon Clearwing and Clearwing are quite different. The Cinnamon Clearwing
                            has reduced body to about 50% of the Normal and the cheek patch is a light
                            violet and feet are pink and if you look closely in some birds especially
                            Green Series you can detect a slight cinnamon colour in the body, wings and
                            tail. Normal Clearwings have full violet cheek patches and blue-grey feet
                            and approx 90% body colour. The Opaline factor does not alter body colour
                            but will put the green into the wings, slightly increase the markings and in
                            the head neck area in some cases, almost obliterate the markings.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<If the mother is a SF yellowface light green then 50% of
                            the offspring should be YF. Again this fits nicely with what we've
                            got.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            Not quite, a Blue paired to a Green split for Yellowface would only produce
                            Greens and Yellowfaces.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The yellowface should be regarded as a separate factor
                            from the green or blue. Both blue series and green series birds can be
                            yellowfaces, but there will be visually little difference between a
                            yellowface green and a non-yellowface green ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


                            The Yellowface is not a separate factor from Green or Blue. Green,
                            Yellowface and Blue form what is known as multiple alleles.


                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<A yellowface blue doesn't look like a light green - as
                            has been pointed out they have a very distinct turquoise colour (as does the
                            youngster).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


                            I am aware of the differences between the various Yellowfaces since this is
                            my speciality. I breed the Goldenface and the Mutant 1 Yellowface. The
                            Mutant 2 Yellowface is unfortunately not in Australia. Not all Yellowfaces
                            are turquoise. All Yellowfaces in nest feather show no suffusion, this comes
                            in when they begin their first moult. Yellowface Mutant 1 has very little
                            suffusion at all and no matter whether it is a Sky, Cobalt, Violet, Mauve or
                            Grey it will still be seen to be a Blue or Grey bird in the appropriate
                            shade. Goldenface on the other hand is entirely different. In the single
                            factor form the suffusion is very heavy but not to the extent that they are
                            identical to a Green or Grey series bird. Because the suffusion is more
                            noticeable on these birds the effect is different depending on colour of the
                            bird. Sky Blue will turn out a Sea-green colour; Cobalt will look like
                            turquoise; Violet is just a bit darker than the turquoise colour created by
                            the Cobalt; Mauve comes close to resembling an a very dull Olive green; Grey
                            can resemble a Grey Green. The double factor Goldenface has very little
                            suffusion but as it ages the yellow does increase, especially in the wings
                            markings and the breast area.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<A yellowface light green split blue however looks exactly
                            like a light green - the yellowface is almost completely masked by the
                            green - and I'm convinced this is what she is.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            A Green bird cannot be a Yellowface and split for Blue at the same time.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The yellow colouring spreading down the mother's
                            flight feathers may be an indication that the mother is YF ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            The yellow colour you see in the flights is common on Green Series
                            Clearwings especially Light Green ones.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< IME many lutino/clearwing/Dom Pied green series birds don't
                            have much yellow in the primaries.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

                            Lutinos and Dom Pieds are not supposed to have much yellow in the primaries.
                            Again this is a natural occurrence. Do I read you right in the above line
                            regarding the Lutino being split for Clearwing and Dominant Pied. After all
                            the / denotes split for.

                            Ron Wrote:
                            <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I bred Lutinos for exhibition for several years and
                            deliberately introduced mutant 1 yellowface in order to get more colour into
                            the flights without altering the lutino appearance in any other
                            way.>>>>>>>>>>>>

                            I have heard so many people say they have used Yellowfaces to improve colour
                            of Clearwings, Lutinos, Pieds etc. Why would you use a bird with Black
                            flights to improve colour in the flights of a Lutino when the flights are
                            suppose to be off white anyway? None of the Yellowfaces will enhance the
                            yellow colour of any variety because the yellow colour in the Yellowfaces is
                            not enhanced in any way, it is in fact decreased. The single factor Mutant 1
                            Yellowface having least amount of yellow. Have you seen pics of single
                            factor Mutant 1 Yellowface Albinos in BW? If so did you note the colour was
                            a very pale lemon colour. If you go to my Goldenface Photo Page on my web
                            site you will find a single factor Goldenface Lacewing. This will give you
                            some idea of the level of yellow, at least in a Goldenface. A single factor
                            Mutant 1 Yellowface would have much less yellow present.

                            Best Regards,
                            Sharon
                            Perth, Australia

                            Down Under Aviaries
                            http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html
                          • Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRC
                            Re: Yellowfaces and lutinos The (theoretical at least) reason behind putting in the yellowface is that when being judged on the showbench if there are two
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                              Re: Yellowfaces and lutinos

                              The (theoretical at least) reason behind putting in the yellowface is that
                              when being judged on the
                              showbench if there are two birds of equal quality, one with 'off white
                              flights' and the other with yellow flights, the one with yellow flights
                              'seems' subjectively to have a better, more uniform colour, giving it an
                              advantage (with some judges). The foundation hen of my stud was a YF Lutino
                              Grey Green, and was one of the 'best' coloured lutinos from a show
                              perspective that I have seen.

                              Ron
                            • Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRC
                              OK, I hadn t ever been convinced that YF/Green/Blue were allelic, but I stand corrected. The one possibility you missed out of your list was YF-YF birds. Do
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                                OK, I hadn't ever been convinced that YF/Green/Blue were allelic, but I
                                stand corrected.

                                The one possibility you missed out of your list was YF-YF birds. Do you find
                                these to be white faced??. If so that adds in a whole new dimension on where
                                the YF factor came from in the pairing in question, but still, as you say,
                                leaves an adulterous pairing as the only way all these chicks could have
                                come from the same clutch.

                                Ron
                              • Terry Martin
                                Ron said ... find ... where ... Visit Clive s website and read the articles by Peter Bergman on YF alleles
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 5, 2001
                                  Ron said

                                  >OK, I hadn't ever been convinced that YF/Green/Blue were allelic, but I
                                  >stand corrected.
                                  >
                                  >The one possibility you missed out of your list was YF-YF birds. Do you
                                  find
                                  >these to be white faced??. If so that adds in a whole new dimension on
                                  where
                                  >the YF factor came from in the pairing in question, but still, as you say,
                                  >leaves an adulterous pairing as the only way all these chicks could have
                                  >come from the same clutch.
                                  >

                                  Visit Clive's website and read the articles by Peter Bergman on YF
                                  alleles

                                  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clivehesford/


                                  The confusion about the YF alleles is brought about by the way
                                  genetics is taught to breeders, the dichotomy of green and blue sounds
                                  convenient, but does not reflect reality of multiple allelic series.

                                  YF does not add yellow, but takes less away from the wildtype than
                                  homozygous blue alleles do. With regards homozygous YF, one of the mutants
                                  is in fact a blue allele (producing blue when homozygous) and it is the
                                  heterozygous pairing with the primary blue allele that produces the YF
                                  phenotype. There are also two YF alleles that are YF in homozygous form as
                                  well. Peter Bergman explains it in detail

                                  Terry
                                • Shannon Barksdale
                                  talked to the breeder again. The dom pied is definitely the father of the babies. They were only placed in one cage that morning. They have had 3 previous
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 6, 2001
                                    talked to the breeder again. The dom pied is definitely the father of the
                                    babies. They were only placed in one cage that morning. They have had 3
                                    previous clutches (only two in the cage so parentage is certain) that
                                    were...

                                    clutch 1 - 5 YF blue pieds
                                    clutch 2 - 1 violet cinn and 6 YF blue pieds
                                    clutch 3 - all YF blue pieds (forgot to write down how many)
                                    clutch 4 (this is the babies I have) 1 blue cinnamon, 1 violet cinnamon and
                                    the YF blue pied


                                    so apparently mom is not a green, or at least the odds of it are very slim.
                                    He didn't have his records at the place he was at, but I'm sending him an
                                    email to remind him to check on the parents backgrounds.


                                    Shannon
                                  • Terry Martin
                                    Shannon The reported results from other clutches suggest the blue cinnamon chick is the anomaly not the YF chick. Terry ... From: Shannon Barksdale
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 9, 2001
                                      Shannon

                                      The reported results from other clutches suggest the blue cinnamon
                                      chick is the anomaly not the YF chick.

                                      Terry

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Shannon Barksdale <barksdale4@...>
                                      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                      <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Wednesday, 7 February 2001 14:03
                                      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box


                                      >talked to the breeder again. The dom pied is definitely the father of the
                                      >babies. They were only placed in one cage that morning. They have had 3
                                      >previous clutches (only two in the cage so parentage is certain) that
                                      >were...
                                      >
                                      >clutch 1 - 5 YF blue pieds
                                      >clutch 2 - 1 violet cinn and 6 YF blue pieds
                                      >clutch 3 - all YF blue pieds (forgot to write down how many)
                                      >clutch 4 (this is the babies I have) 1 blue cinnamon, 1 violet cinnamon and
                                      >the YF blue pied
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >so apparently mom is not a green, or at least the odds of it are very slim.
                                      >He didn't have his records at the place he was at, but I'm sending him an
                                      >email to remind him to check on the parents backgrounds.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Shannon
                                      >
                                    • Shannon Barksdale
                                      Actually it seems like the mom is the anomaly :) out of 20+ babies not a single green, but she looks exactly like a green. Shannon ... From: Terry Martin
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 9, 2001
                                        Actually it seems like the mom is the anomaly :) out of 20+ babies not a
                                        single green, but she looks exactly like a green.

                                        Shannon
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Terry Martin" <sbankvet@...>
                                        To: <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 5:07 PM
                                        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: surprises in the nest box


                                        > Shannon
                                        >
                                        > The reported results from other clutches suggest the blue cinnamon
                                        > chick is the anomaly not the YF chick.
                                        >
                                        > Terry
                                      • Brett Doran & Sharon House
                                        Shannon, I have done up a web page for all to see comparing the various varieties and colours involved with this pair. I have inverted the pictures in
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 11, 2001
                                          Shannon,

                                          I have done up a web page for all to see comparing the various varieties and
                                          colours involved with this pair. I have inverted the pictures in questions
                                          so that in this state it is clear which are Green series birds and which are
                                          Blue series birds. Go to this page to see the inverted photos and the
                                          explanations that accompany them. The page may take a while to load
                                          depending on your systems.

                                          http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/shannon/surprise.html

                                          Having done this the only explanation that I can come up with is that the
                                          father is a double factor Yellowface Mutant 1 and the mother is a Green
                                          split for Yellowface Mutant 1. This will then allow Yellowfaces to be born
                                          in the high numbers suggested in the previous clutches. The birds that are
                                          Blue would then be double factor Yellowface Mutant 1.

                                          Best Regards,
                                          Sharon
                                          Perth, Australia

                                          Down Under Aviaries
                                          http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Shannon Barksdale [mailto:barksdale4@...]
                                          Sent: Wednesday, 7 February 2001 12:01
                                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box

                                          talked to the breeder again. The dom pied is definitely the father of the
                                          babies. They were only placed in one cage that morning. They have had 3
                                          previous clutches (only two in the cage so parentage is certain) that
                                          were...

                                          clutch 1 - 5 YF blue pieds
                                          clutch 2 - 1 violet cinn and 6 YF blue pieds
                                          clutch 3 - all YF blue pieds (forgot to write down how many)
                                          clutch 4 (this is the babies I have) 1 blue cinnamon, 1 violet cinnamon and
                                          the YF blue pied


                                          so apparently mom is not a green, or at least the odds of it are very slim.
                                          He didn't have his records at the place he was at, but I'm sending him an
                                          email to remind him to check on the parents backgrounds.


                                          Shannon
                                        • Brett Doran & Sharon House
                                          Hi Ron, Green, Yellowface and Blue have been known to be allelic for quite some time. Mutant 1 Yellowface in double factor is a white faced bird. The Mutant 2
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 11, 2001
                                            Hi Ron,

                                            Green, Yellowface and Blue have been known to be allelic for quite some
                                            time.

                                            Mutant 1 Yellowface in double factor is a white faced bird. The Mutant 2
                                            Yellowface and the Goldenface in double factor still appear as Yellowface
                                            birds.

                                            Best Regards,
                                            Sharon
                                            Perth, Australia

                                            Down Under Aviaries
                                            http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/index.html



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Ron Rees Davies, BVSc., CertZooMed., MRCVS..
                                            [mailto:Ron_vet@...]
                                            Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2001 3:54
                                            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] surprises in the nest box

                                            OK, I hadn't ever been convinced that YF/Green/Blue were allelic, but I
                                            stand corrected.
                                            The one possibility you missed out of your list was YF-YF birds. Do you find
                                            these to be white faced??. If so that adds in a whole new dimension on where
                                            the YF factor came from in the pairing in question, but still, as you say,
                                            leaves an adulterous pairing as the only way all these chicks could have
                                            come from the same clutch.
                                            Ron
                                          • Inte Onsman
                                            ... With regard to the puzzle we are tying to solve at present I woulkd like to make the following statement. I have noticed several times that the
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 12, 2001
                                              At 11:27 12-02-01 +0800, you wrote:
                                              >Hi Ron,
                                              >
                                              >Green, Yellowface and Blue have been known to be allelic for quite some
                                              >time.
                                              >
                                              >Mutant 1 Yellowface in double factor is a white faced bird. The Mutant 2
                                              >Yellowface and the Goldenface in double factor still appear as Yellowface
                                              >birds.
                                              >



                                              With regard to the "puzzle" we are tying to solve at present I woulkd like
                                              to make the following statement.

                                              I have noticed several times that the excistance of a "Mutant I yellowface"
                                              is still promoted on this list. However, there is overwhelming evidence that
                                              such bird DOES NOT EXCIST. I can imagine that this is very hard to
                                              understand for most breeders.
                                              There are several reasons for this misunderstanding. There are obviously a
                                              number of breeders who are unaware of the excellent article written by Peter
                                              Bergman of Australia in which he explains the yellowface puzzle in detail.
                                              Even I needed some time to understand the significance of this article.
                                              There might be some breeders who read the article but didn't understand the
                                              complexity of the problem. I don't blame anybody who didn't understand.
                                              After reading it several times it finally got through to me.
                                              Bergman came up with the best solution ever.
                                              The thrust of his arguments is that the blue-locus has mutated in two
                                              different ways resulting is two types of blue birds. These two types show NO
                                              DIFFERENCE IN THEIR APPEARANCE, that is the problem. In other words, they
                                              have the same phenotype, one cannot tell the difference.
                                              There are two different blue alleles: bl1 and bl2. A bl1 / bl1 bird is blue.
                                              A bl2 / bl2 bird is also blue.
                                              However, a bl1 / bl2 bird is a creamface (FKA yellowface mutant I) and is in
                                              fact no yellowface at all but a composite of the bl1 and the bl2 alleles.
                                              All mating results can be explained by Bergmans theory but one has to read
                                              his article several times to understand.
                                              In all those years that I am doing literature research, I have never
                                              encountered a better solution for this puzzle and therefore I will promote
                                              Bergmans theory as much as I can.

                                              The URL is: ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clivehesford/Peter/yface01.html

                                              There is a link at the bottom of the article that brings you to Part two.


                                              Inte Onsman
                                              MUTAVI Research & Advice Group

                                              Mail: ionsman@...
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