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Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

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  • Jaynee Salan
    ... From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@hotmail.com Congratulations, Melinda, in my opinion it is most definitely the first appearance of the pied gene showing
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 30 12:54 PM
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      >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

      >Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of
      >ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition
      >deficiency or a possible mutation. Both birds have just completed their
      >second moult. I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its
      >head & back with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the
      >makings of a pied. I would really appreciate a response, especially on the
      >yellow feathers. I just hope it is not some nutritional
      >defieiency..............Thanks in advance.........Melinda Schmitz (Anza's
      >Australian Beauties) S.Calif


      From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@...

      Congratulations, Melinda, in my opinion it is most definitely the first
      appearance of the pied gene showing itself. I also have a Pied Princess
      that looks exactly as you describe yours to be.

      In the early years of developing the American Pied Ringnecks many of our
      pieds looked like this also. The unmistakable trademark of pied birds is
      the clear open area on the head, nape of the neck and can open up onto the
      mantle of the bird or as you have said the back.

      Your little Bourke sounds really beautiful too. This coloration will add a
      lot of glamour to an already beautiful mutation.

      It doesn't sound likely that these birds have nutritional deficiencies
      because of where the differentiated marks are located on them. The
      markings you describe are very classic to pied birds.

      Lots of specialized breeding now should instill and propagate some very
      beautiful mutations for you in the future. I would strongly suggest that
      you retain all members of these birds immediate families as they will
      prove invaluable for your future breedings.

      I recently posted a couple of our young pied bird photos in the shared
      files section if you would like to take a look at the pied colors when
      they are in the developmental stages.

      I wish you the best of success...

      Jaynee Salan
      www.piedringnecksUSA.com

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    • Terry Martin
      ... ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition deficiency or a possible mutation. The main concern is the possibility of either
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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        >Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of
        ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition
        deficiency or a possible mutation.

        The main concern is the possibility of either PBFD or polyomavirus
        being carries by these birds. In Australia the Princess parrot is a common
        carrier of these viruses and birds with 'pied' feathers appear regularly. I
        would suggest the birds be tested for these two viruses before becoming too
        excited. The fact that you have multiple birds in multiple species makes me
        wonder.

        A lot of breeders look for 'pied' feet, which will not occur with
        the viruses, but remeber that not all pied mutations alter feet colour.


        >I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its head & back
        with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the makings of a
        pied.

        Normally the viruses do not cause pied feathers on the wings or
        tail. But the pink suffusion is common in Bourke parrots that are unwell.

        Only time and breeding success will confirm whether or not you have
        new pied mutations. But be cautious and consider having a few birds tested.

        Good Luck

        Terry
      • melinda schmitz
        Jaynee: Thanks so much for the response...............Melinda Schmitz ... From: Jaynee Salan To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 1, 2000
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          Jaynee: Thanks so much for the response...............Melinda Schmitz
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jaynee Salan <pieds1usa@...>
          To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com <Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com>
          Cc: Pieds1usa@... <Pieds1usa@...>
          Date: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:16 AM
          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

          >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

          >Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of
          >ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition
          >deficiency or a possible mutation. Both birds have just completed their
          >second moult. I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its
          >head & back with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the
          >makings of a pied. I would really appreciate a response, especially on the
          >yellow feathers. I just hope it is not some nutritional
          >defieiency..............Thanks in advance.........Melinda Schmitz (Anza's
          >Australian Beauties) S.Calif


          From: Jaynee Salan  Pieds1usa@...

          Congratulations, Melinda, in my opinion it is most definitely the first
          appearance of the pied gene showing itself.  I also have a Pied Princess
          that looks exactly as you describe yours to be.

          In the early years of developing the American Pied Ringnecks many of our
          pieds looked like this also.  The unmistakable trademark of pied birds is
          the clear open area on the head, nape of the neck and can open up onto the
          mantle of the bird or as you have said the back.

          Your little Bourke sounds really beautiful too.  This coloration will add a
          lot of glamour to an already beautiful mutation.

          It doesn't sound likely that these birds have nutritional deficiencies
          because of where the differentiated marks are located on them.  The
          markings you describe are very classic to pied birds.

          Lots of specialized breeding now should instill and propagate some very
          beautiful mutations for you in the future.  I would strongly suggest that
          you retain all members of these birds immediate families as they will
          prove invaluable for your future breedings.

          I recently posted a couple of our young pied bird photos in the shared
          files section if you would like to take a look at the pied colors when
          they are in the developmental stages.

          I wish you the best of success...

          Jaynee Salan
          www.piedringnecksUSA.com

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        • Deon Smith
          I agree with Terry, whenever bi-coloured morphs appear across species in a closed environment, one should suspect an environmental determinant, like
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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            I agree with Terry, whenever bi-coloured morphs appear across species in a closed environment, one should suspect an environmental determinant, like nutritional deficiencies or a viral ethiology.
             
            Time will tell, and I think after the next moult you will be much more the wiser.
             
            Deon
          • Jaynee Salan
            ... From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@hotmail.com Terry s advice is excellent regarding testing for viral agents. We have routinely screened for these viruses
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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              >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

              >Jaynee: Thanks so much for the response...............Melinda Schmitz

              From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@...

              Terry's advice is excellent regarding testing for viral agents. We have
              routinely screened for these viruses over the years as the same concern
              occurred to us as well and we vaccinate for Polyomavirus whenever we sell a
              bird and test for PBFD as there is no vaccine for it yet.

              As far as the Bourke, I was thinking of the beautiful little Rosey Bourke
              that is very popular here in the US which is Pink or Rose and some Grey with
              white etching on it's feathers. I don't know that I have seen any yet with
              white flights and tail feathers. That would be a beautiful addition to the
              already beautiful pink and grey feather combination.

              The photos I was talking about of a few of our very young birds are actually
              attached to a message I posted back in August. If you click on messages on
              the homepage for eGroups it will bring up a screen for the latest messages
              posted. At the top of the page it says, Jump to # with a little box, type
              in the numbers 2414 and click go, it will take you to that message. The
              little paperclip next to the message means there is an attachment with it,
              click on message 2414 and it will open up the message and the pictures I
              attached there.

              Again, good luck...

              Jaynee Salan
              www.piedringnecksUSA.com


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            • Sabjer@aol.com
              Dear List, I have a friend who has raised Rosey Bourkes in Alabama for many years. Most of the normal colored Bourkes(not Rosey) have white flights and
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                Dear List,

                I have a friend who has raised Rosey Bourkes in Alabama for many years. Most
                of the normal colored Bourkes(not Rosey) have white flights and outside tail
                feathers. Many of her birds have yellow and yellow-green coloration on the
                wing feathers.

                Her husband is a veterinarian and I assure you that these colors are not
                caused by nutrition or disease.
              • Joyce Baum
                ... Most ... tail ... the ... I used to have many of these beautifully colored Rosey Bourkes here in Arizona also. I have since sold them to several different
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                  > I have a friend who has raised Rosey Bourkes in Alabama for many years.
                  Most
                  > of the normal colored Bourkes(not Rosey) have white flights and outside
                  tail
                  > feathers. Many of her birds have yellow and yellow-green coloration on
                  the
                  > wing feathers.

                  I used to have many of these beautifully colored Rosey Bourkes here in
                  Arizona also. I have since sold them to several different people, who are
                  delighted with their beautiful coloring.

                  Joyce
                • Terry Martin
                  Sabra said ... Most ... tail ... There are certainly many healthy, genuine, genetically controlled Pied colour morphs in all species. I was not saying they all
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                    Sabra said

                    >I have a friend who has raised Rosey Bourkes in Alabama for many years.
                    Most
                    >of the normal colored Bourkes(not Rosey) have white flights and outside
                    tail
                    >feathers. Many of her birds have yellow and yellow-green coloration on the
                    >wing feathers.
                    >
                    >Her husband is a veterinarian and I assure you that these colors are not
                    >caused by nutrition or disease.


                    There are certainly many healthy, genuine, genetically controlled
                    Pied colour morphs in all species. I was not saying they all are caused by
                    disease. We have a Pied Bourke mutation in Australia and I believe there is
                    another in Europe. But one should always be concerned and careful when they
                    turn up in our aviaries (or dealers?)

                    In the case of the Bourke, my concern was the pink feathers
                    appearing through its plumage. If it is not an opaline (Rose) Bourke, then
                    it probably another of the red suffusion type birds, similar to those we
                    have discussed in other species (LBs, etc) that are not genetically
                    inherited and often moult out later in life. The exact cause has not been
                    determined, but it is not an inherited mutation.

                    I have seen many Bourke parrots like this and had one or two myself.
                    One Australian breeder was selling these birds as 'Pink Lacewings' or
                    something similar and they would later moult out.

                    Terry
                  • melinda schmitz
                    Terry: I will have that done immediately. My husband is a Vet.........Thanks Melinda Schmitz ... From: Terry Martin To:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                      Terry: I will have that done immediately. My husband is a Vet.........Thanks Melinda Schmitz
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                      To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com <Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com>
                      Date: Monday, October 02, 2000 2:04 AM
                      Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Needing some help

                      >Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of
                      ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition
                      deficiency or a possible mutation.

                              The main concern is the possibility of either PBFD or polyomavirus
                      being carries by these birds. In Australia the Princess parrot is a common
                      carrier of these viruses and birds with 'pied' feathers appear regularly. I
                      would suggest the birds be tested for these two viruses before becoming too
                      excited. The fact that you have multiple birds in multiple species makes me
                      wonder.

                              A lot of breeders look for 'pied' feet, which will not occur with
                      the viruses, but remeber that not all pied mutations alter feet colour.


                      >I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its head & back
                      with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the makings of a
                      pied.

                              Normally the viruses do not cause pied feathers on the wings or
                      tail. But the pink suffusion is common in Bourke parrots that are unwell.

                              Only time and breeding success will confirm whether or not you have
                      new pied mutations. But be cautious and consider having a few birds tested.

                              Good Luck

                              Terry

                    • melinda schmitz
                      Jaynee: On the bourke the parents were a Cinn-pink eye & a normal. This pair has given me Roseys as well. On the 2 (ie: Barraband & Princess of Wales) they are
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 2, 2000
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                        Jaynee: On the bourke the parents were a Cinn-pink eye & a normal. This pair has given me Roseys as well. On the 2 (ie: Barraband & Princess of Wales) they are both last years chicks from 2 differenct sources, if they were out of my stock I wouldn't be concerned but yes, I will test them for the virsus since my husband is a Vet, not avian thou.............Melinda
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Jaynee Salan <pieds1usa@...>
                        To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com <Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com>
                        Cc: Pieds1usa@... <Pieds1usa@...>
                        Date: Monday, October 02, 2000 8:07 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

                        >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

                        >Jaynee: Thanks so much for the response...............Melinda Schmitz

                        From: Jaynee Salan  Pieds1usa@...

                        Terry's advice is excellent regarding testing for viral agents.  We have
                        routinely screened for these viruses over the years as the same concern
                        occurred to us as well and we vaccinate for Polyomavirus whenever we sell a
                        bird and test for PBFD as there is no vaccine for it yet.

                        As far as the Bourke, I was thinking of the beautiful little Rosey Bourke
                        that is very popular here in the US which is Pink or Rose and some Grey with
                        white etching on it's feathers.  I don't know that I have seen any yet with
                        white flights and tail feathers. That would be a beautiful addition to the
                        already beautiful pink and grey feather combination.

                        The photos I was talking about of a few of our very young birds are actually
                        attached to a message I posted back in August.  If you click on messages on
                        the homepage for eGroups it will bring up a screen for the latest messages
                        posted.  At the top of the page it says, Jump to # with a little box, type
                        in the numbers 2414 and click go, it will take you to that message.  The
                        little paperclip next to the message means there is an attachment with it,
                        click on message 2414 and it will open up the message and the pictures I
                        attached there.

                        Again, good luck...

                        Jaynee Salan
                        www.piedringnecksUSA.com


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                      • Jaynee Salan
                        ... From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@hotmail.com It sounds like you have an excellent start with the Bourkes. Hopefully, you ve kept any other brothers and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 3, 2000
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                          >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

                          >On the bourke the parents were a Cinn-pink eye & a normal. This pair >has
                          >given me Roseys as well. On the 2 (ie: Barraband & Princess of >Wales) they
                          >are both last years chicks from 2 differenct sources, if >they were out of
                          >my stock I wouldn't be concerned but yes, I will test >them for the virsus
                          >since my husband is a Vet, not avian >thou.............Melinda


                          From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@...

                          It sounds like you have an excellent start with the Bourkes. Hopefully,
                          you've kept any other brothers and sisters or at least some to work with
                          now. I know the Bourkes are dimorphic (a color difference that determines
                          the sex opposed to monomorphic which is identical in appearance) and mate
                          the new color that you have with a brother or sister, which ever applies.
                          We have found that breeding the off-spring
                          with it's parent doesn't give us the higher ratio of more possibilities, but
                          a brother/sister mating does. And you would want to keep all the brothers
                          and sisters of this generation, called the F1 generation. I would band them
                          all (even the parents, with open bands if necessary) and start keeping
                          meticulous records from now on as you build your gene pool.

                          You said the Barraband and Princess came from different sources. See if
                          it's possible to purchase a brother or sister when you determine the sex
                          on the two that you have. Maybe the previous owners would be willing to
                          even sell the parents. Barrabands change color and begin to acquire
                          a bright yellow face and a red bib under it if a male. That should start
                          happening now if that bird is a year old. You should see a little something
                          starting. They sort of look like they have yellow measles until the yellow
                          and red fills in and is quite defined by the time they're mature.

                          On the Princess, the males actually acquire a tiny feather extention on
                          the 3rd primary flight feather of each wing. If the Princess is also a
                          year old now you should begin to see the feather extention already.

                          Hopefully the viral tests will all come back negative and you will have
                          the excitment of knowing that you have the beginning of something very
                          special, if you choose to develop it.

                          Jaynee
                          www.piedringnecksUSA.com

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                        • Jaynee Salan
                          ... From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@hotmail.com It sounds like you have a great start with your Bourkes since they have already given you Rosey Bourkes in the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 4, 2000
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                            >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

                            >Jaynee: On the bourke the parents were a Cinn-pink eye & a normal. This
                            > >pair has given me Roseys as well. On the 2 (ie: Barraband & Princess of
                            > >Wales) they are both last years chicks from 2 differenct sources, if
                            > >they were out of my stock I wouldn't be concerned but yes, I will test
                            > >them for the virsus since my husband is a Vet, not avian
                            > >thou.............Melinda


                            From: Jaynee Salan Pieds1usa@...

                            It sounds like you have a great start with your Bourkes since they have
                            already given you Rosey Bourkes in the past. Bourkes are dimorphic(meaning
                            they have a color difference determining their sex) and I would breed a
                            brother/sister together in this F1 generation as they give us a higher ratio
                            of possibilities than do a parent/off-spring mating.

                            Since the Barraband and Princess came from other sources you may try to
                            purchase a brother or sister to each depending on their sex. Barraband's
                            change colors as they mature, if a male. They look like they have yellow
                            and red measles until their yellow face and red bib are well defined at
                            maturity. You should begin to see some color change at 1 year of age in
                            correlation with the moult.

                            The Princess will acquire a small feather extention on their 3rd primary
                            flight feather of each wing usually at one year of age if a male. You should
                            start seeing something there also.

                            It's staggering to think that 1 in 4 of all birds have the potential for a
                            mutation and much of our team research has taught us that often times when
                            the start of a mutation appears and then disappears doesn't mean it isn't
                            there, it's just in it's most unstable stage.

                            Hopefully, Melinda, all the viral tests will be negative and you'll have
                            the excitement of knowing that you have the start of something very special,
                            should you choose to develop it.

                            Jaynee
                            www.piedringnecksUSA.com

                            _________________________________________________________________________
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                          • Russell Pringle
                            Hello Melinda, In Aust. yellow feathers on the princess is a classic sign of beak & feather disease & shows up as white in the blue bird. How s the stanleys??
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 4, 2000
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                              Hello Melinda,
                                                   In Aust. yellow feathers on the princess is a classic sign of beak & feather disease & shows up as white in the blue bird.
                               How's the stanleys??
                               
                               
                                 Russell.
                               -----Original Message-----
                              From: melinda schmitz [mailto:anza.express@...]
                              Sent: Saturday, 30 September 2000 3:36
                              To: genetics-psittacine@egroups.com
                              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

                              Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition deficiency or a possible mutation. Both birds have just completed their second moult. I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its head & back with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the makings of a pied. I would really appreciate a response, especially on the yellow feathers. I just hope it is not some nutritional defieiency..............Thanks in advance.........Melinda Schmitz (Anza's Australian Beauties) S.Calif 
                            • melinda schmitz
                              Russell: I will be testing the Princess & Barraband hen for both feather & beak & Polyomia even thou both birds are in fine feather & seem healthy. The
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 5, 2000
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                                Russell: I will be testing the Princess & Barraband hen for both feather & beak & Polyomia even thou both birds are in fine feather & seem healthy. The Stanleys will be set up next season with a visual paired up with a split. This hopefully will produce more visual birds & we will beable to tell what the genetic makeup is..........................MelindaOriginal Message-----
                                From: Russell Pringle <rpringle@...>
                                To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com <Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com>
                                Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 2:17 AM
                                Subject: RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

                                Hello Melinda,
                                                     In Aust. yellow feathers on the princess is a classic sign of beak & feather disease & shows up as white in the blue bird.
                                 How's the stanleys??
                                 
                                 
                                   Russell.
                                 -----Original Message-----
                                From: melinda schmitz [mailto:anza.express@...]
                                Sent: Saturday, 30 September 2000 3:36
                                To: genetics-psittacine@egroups.com
                                Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

                                Hi: I would like to know if yellow feathers showing up on the backs of ordinarily green birds (ie: Barrabands,Princess of Wales) is a nutrition deficiency or a possible mutation. Both birds have just completed their second moult. I also have a bourke parakeet that has pink spotches on its head & back with white flight feathers & tail feathers. Could this be the makings of a pied. I would really appreciate a response, especially on the yellow feathers. I just hope it is not some nutritional defieiency..............Thanks in advance.........Melinda Schmitz (Anza's Australian Beauties) S.Calif 
                              • melinda schmitz
                                Jaynee: The birds in question have already been DNA d. I specialize in the Australian parakeets. I have already stumbled on a new mutation with the Stanley
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 5, 2000
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                                  Jaynee: The birds in question have already been DNA'd. I specialize in the Australian parakeets. I have already stumbled on a new mutation with the Stanley rosella, they are in their 4th generation now. Hopefully this coming up season will determine what their genetic makeup is, we have determined already that it is not sex linked....................................Melinda
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Jaynee Salan <pieds1usa@...>
                                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com <Genetics-Psittacine@egroups.com>
                                  Cc: Pieds1usa@... <Pieds1usa@...>
                                  Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 2:54 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Needing some help

                                  >From: "melinda schmitz" <anza.express@...>

                                  >Jaynee: On the bourke the parents were a Cinn-pink eye & a normal. This
                                  > >pair has given me Roseys as well. On the 2 (ie: Barraband & Princess of
                                  > >Wales) they are both last years chicks from 2 differenct sources, if
                                  > >they were out of my stock I wouldn't be concerned but yes, I will test
                                  > >them for the virsus since my husband is a Vet, not avian
                                  > >thou.............Melinda


                                  From: Jaynee Salan  Pieds1usa@...

                                  It sounds like you have a great start with your Bourkes since they have
                                  already given you Rosey Bourkes in the past.  Bourkes are dimorphic(meaning
                                  they have a color difference determining their sex) and I would breed a
                                  brother/sister together in this F1 generation as they give us a higher ratio
                                  of possibilities than do a parent/off-spring mating.

                                  Since the Barraband and Princess came from other sources you may try to
                                  purchase a brother or sister to each depending on their sex.  Barraband's
                                  change colors as they mature, if a male.  They look like they have yellow
                                  and red measles until their yellow face and red bib are well defined at
                                  maturity.  You should begin to see some color change at 1 year of age in
                                  correlation with the moult.

                                  The Princess will acquire a small feather extention on their 3rd primary
                                  flight feather of each wing usually at one year of age if a male. You should
                                  start seeing something there also.

                                  It's staggering to think that 1 in 4 of all birds have the potential for a
                                  mutation and much of our team research has taught us that often times when
                                  the start of a mutation appears and then disappears doesn't mean it isn't
                                  there, it's just in it's most unstable stage.

                                  Hopefully, Melinda, all the viral tests will be negative and you'll have
                                  the excitement of knowing that you have the start of something very special,
                                  should you choose to develop it.

                                  Jaynee
                                  www.piedringnecksUSA.com

                                  _________________________________________________________________________
                                  Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

                                  Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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