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Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds

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  • Recio Joaquin
    Hi Wynand,   Thank you for the link. It seems that the African grey is a very good candidate to study the melanin/psittacins interactions because of its
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 2, 2012
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      Hi Wynand,
       
      Thank you for the link. It seems that the African grey is a very good candidate to study the melanin/psittacins interactions because of its "simplicity". Could anybody help me to find some info on the genetics of the "lutino(s)" African Greys?
       
      Till now the most complet article I have found is this: http://mybelovedparrots.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/african-grey-parrot/
      ... but I am in trouble with the language ... Could anyone translate or redirect me on an English form of this article?
       
      Regards
       
      Recio

      From: Wynand Bezuidenhout <wynand.bezuidenhout@...>
      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:14 AM
      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
       
      Hi Reciohttp://www.redafricangrey.com/
      Wynand
      
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
      will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
      				- Herm Albright
      On 29/11/2012 11:48 PM, Recio Joaquin wrote:
       
      Hi everybody,
      Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:
      Any idea about the inheritance pattern?
       
      Recio
    • Dilson Aquino
      Hy, Recio. I use internet explorer with “google translate toolbar” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdp4BDSII Dilson Miami/FL/USA From:
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 3, 2012
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        Hy, Recio.

         

        I use internet explorer with “google translate toolbar” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdp4BDSII

         

        Dilson

        Miami/FL/USA

         

        From: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Recio Joaquin
        Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 4:38 PM
        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds

         




        Hi Wynand,

         

        Thank you for the link. It seems that the African grey is a very good candidate to study the melanin/psittacins interactions because of its "simplicity". Could anybody help me to find some info on the genetics of the "lutino(s)" African Greys?

         

        Till now the most complet article I have found is this: http://mybelovedparrots.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/african-grey-parrot/

        ... but I am in trouble with the language ... Could anyone translate or redirect me on an English form of this article?

         

        Regards

         

        Recio

         

        From: Wynand Bezuidenhout <wynand.bezuidenhout@...>
        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:14 AM
        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds

         

        Hi Reciohttp://www.redafricangrey.com/

        Wynand
          
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
                                       - Herm Albright

        On 29/11/2012 11:48 PM, Recio Joaquin wrote:

         

        Hi everybody,

        Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:

        Any idea about the inheritance pattern?

         

        Recio




      • Recio Joaquin
        Hi everybody,   The firsts African Greys with some red feathers were birds with a red factor . This was not uncommon in normal African Greys. Then they
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 5, 2012
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          Hi everybody,
           
          The firsts African Greys with some red feathers were birds with a "red factor". This was not uncommon in normal African Greys. Then they produced a higher amount of red feathers mainly in the lower part of the abdomen by probably adding the dom pied mutation (those birds were called F2 pied). Probably the DF dom pied SF "red factor" are the birds showing a big amount of red feathers mainly in the belly and wings but not completelly red. When  pairing two DF dom pied SF "red factor" birds together they were able to produce the completely red bird, making me think that this red bird is a genetic DF dom pied DF "red factor" .... and this is the reason that they sell red pairings as complet red (DF dom pied DF red factor) +" DF bird" (DF dom pied SF red factor).... allowing to obtain 50% complete red greys and 50% incomplete red birds (DF dom pied SF red factor) offspring. Probably the "red factor" is the recessive pied mutation, and in this situation the apparent inheritance behaviour of "red" is autosomal recessive since we are always dealing with DF dom pied in both parents, and SF or DF recessive pied in each parent ... thus the apparent inheritance behaviour depends on rec pied mutation.
           
          These results in African Greys further support the hypothesis that the expression of psittacins is down regulated by melanocytes by the production of a paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF), as it was suggested by the studies on dom pied IRN and Spangle budgies (probably also dom pied). In African Greys the red psittacins are not hidden under the black feathers since there are white greys (lutinos lacking the expression of melanin) in which we can clearly see that red psittacin is only expressed in the tail feathers, all other feathers in the body appearing white. In these white lutinos African Greys melanocytes are always present in the feather follicles and inhibit the "spontaneous" production of psittacins. Pieds mutations (probably both dom pied and rec pied) eliminates these melanocytes (or its functional activity concerning the production of PIF) and allow for the expression of red psittacins. In fact the wild African Grey is a green series bird since the gene(s) coding for psittacins is/are not bloqued, but what is bloqued is its peripheral expression (excepting in the tail) due to the local inhibition of psittacin production by melanocytes. This wild grey phenotype is not due to the combination of Blue + Grey mutations, in fact it is a Grey green bird in which there is a peripheral block (in the feather  follicle) in psittacins production.
           
          We have the idea that the production of red psittacins is made by an intermediary product belonging to the familly of yellow psittacins. In African Greys we can see that the expression of yellow psittacins is very "soft" pointing to a low threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for the production of red psittacins. Probably the threshold for production of red psittacins from yellow psittacins is species specific... and we could speculate that, maybe, the action of the Opaline mutation appears by setting this species specific threshold at a lower point, and thus allowing an increase in red psittacins production.
           
          Does the completelly "red" African Grey show only red psittacins ... or are there yellow psittacin(s) in a very low concentration so that we can not see it? Studies on budgies and IRN have shown that the dom pied mutation induces an increase in the production of yellow fluorescent psittacins, and studies in every red parrot have shown that red psittacofulvines are never fluorescent. If we were able to detect any fluorescence under uv ligth in these "red" African Greys we could reasonably conclude that they are expressing both red and yellow pigments. Could anyone of the SA breeders contact an owner of red African Grey to check for the presence of fluorescence under uv?
           
          Last thought: if we think that the wild African Grey is the resulting evolution of an initially green parrot ... which are the mutations that have allowed to produce this "wild" phenotype? Something to think about : Grey + Opaline + Increased PIF.
           
          1. Grey = estructural mutation you all know.
           
          2. Opaline = mutation acting as a "redistributing factor" ... but could it just be a change (increase) in the activity (affinity-Kd and/or quantity-Bmax) of the enzyme allowing to produce red psittacins from yellow psittacins? It would be the same than saying a decrease in the threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for red psittacin production...
           
          3. Increased PIF: Can we define a new mutation as an increase in PIF? If it was the case this mutation specific feature would be the peripheral block in the expression of psittacins. This block would disappear when adding dom pied in the genetic make up of the bird. It would be great to detect other species with this specific feature.
           
          Regards
           
          Recio

          From: Wynand Bezuidenhout <wynand.bezuidenhout@...>
          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:14 AM
          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
           
          Hi Recio http://www.redafricangrey.com/
          Wynand
          
          A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
          will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
          				- Herm Albright
          On 29/11/2012 11:48 PM, Recio Joaquin wrote:
           
          Hi everybody,
          Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:
          Any idea about the inheritance pattern?
           
          Recio
        • Dora Smith
          Here I thought you were talking about either Angry Birds’ Red Birds, or my Webkinz of that name (cardinal, but it looks like a Red Bird). Dora From: Recio
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 5, 2012
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            Here I thought you were talking about either Angry Birds’ Red Birds, or my Webkinz of that name (cardinal, but it looks like a Red Bird).
             
            Dora
             
            Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 8:19 AM
            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
             
             

            Hi everybody,
             
            The firsts African Greys with some red feathers were birds with a "red factor". This was not uncommon in normal African Greys. Then they produced a higher amount of red feathers mainly in the lower part of the abdomen by probably adding the dom pied mutation (those birds were called F2 pied). Probably the DF dom pied SF "red factor" are the birds showing a big amount of red feathers mainly in the belly and wings but not completelly red. When  pairing two DF dom pied SF "red factor" birds together they were able to produce the completely red bird, making me think that this red bird is a genetic DF dom pied DF "red factor" .... and this is the reason that they sell red pairings as complet red (DF dom pied DF red factor) +" DF bird" (DF dom pied SF red factor).... allowing to obtain 50% complete red greys and 50% incomplete red birds (DF dom pied SF red factor) offspring. Probably the "red factor" is the recessive pied mutation, and in this situation the apparent inheritance behaviour of "red" is autosomal recessive since we are always dealing with DF dom pied in both parents, and SF or DF recessive pied in each parent ... thus the apparent inheritance behaviour depends on rec pied mutation.
             
            These results in African Greys further support the hypothesis that the expression of psittacins is down regulated by melanocytes by the production of a paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF), as it was suggested by the studies on dom pied IRN and Spangle budgies (probably also dom pied). In African Greys the red psittacins are not hidden under the black feathers since there are white greys (lutinos lacking the expression of melanin) in which we can clearly see that red psittacin is only expressed in the tail feathers, all other feathers in the body appearing white. In these white lutinos African Greys melanocytes are always present in the feather follicles and inhibit the "spontaneous" production of psittacins. Pieds mutations (probably both dom pied and rec pied) eliminates these melanocytes (or its functional activity concerning the production of PIF) and allow for the expression of red psittacins. In fact the wild African Grey is a green series bird since the gene(s) coding for psittacins is/are not bloqued, but what is bloqued is its peripheral expression (excepting in the tail) due to the local inhibition of psittacin production by melanocytes. This wild grey phenotype is not due to the combination of Blue + Grey mutations, in fact it is a Grey green bird in which there is a peripheral block (in the feather  follicle) in psittacins production.
             
            We have the idea that the production of red psittacins is made by an intermediary product belonging to the familly of yellow psittacins. In African Greys we can see that the expression of yellow psittacins is very "soft" pointing to a low threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for the production of red psittacins. Probably the threshold for production of red psittacins from yellow psittacins is species specific... and we could speculate that, maybe, the action of the Opaline mutation appears by setting this species specific threshold at a lower point, and thus allowing an increase in red psittacins production.
             
            Does the completelly "red" African Grey show only red psittacins ... or are there yellow psittacin(s) in a very low concentration so that we can not see it? Studies on budgies and IRN have shown that the dom pied mutation induces an increase in the production of yellow fluorescent psittacins, and studies in every red parrot have shown that red psittacofulvines are never fluorescent. If we were able to detect any fluorescence under uv ligth in these "red" African Greys we could reasonably conclude that they are expressing both red and yellow pigments. Could anyone of the SA breeders contact an owner of red African Grey to check for the presence of fluorescence under uv?
             
            Last thought: if we think that the wild African Grey is the resulting evolution of an initially green parrot ... which are the mutations that have allowed to produce this "wild" phenotype? Something to think about : Grey + Opaline + Increased PIF.
             
            1. Grey = estructural mutation you all know.
             
            2. Opaline = mutation acting as a "redistributing factor" ... but could it just be a change (increase) in the activity (affinity-Kd and/or quantity-Bmax) of the enzyme allowing to produce red psittacins from yellow psittacins? It would be the same than saying a decrease in the threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for red psittacin production...
             
            3. Increased PIF: Can we define a new mutation as an increase in PIF? If it was the case this mutation specific feature would be the peripheral block in the expression of psittacins. This block would disappear when adding dom pied in the genetic make up of the bird. It would be great to detect other species with this specific feature.
             
            Regards
             
            Recio
             
            From: Wynand Bezuidenhout <wynand.bezuidenhout@...>
            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
             
            Hi Recio http://www.redafricangrey.com/
            Wynand
            
            A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
            will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
            				- Herm Albright
            On 29/11/2012 11:48 PM, Recio Joaquin wrote:
             
            Hi everybody,
            Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:
            Any idea about the inheritance pattern?
             
            Recio
          • Recio Joaquin
            Hi Dilson and Peter,   I have just noticed that all the mails concerning red birds went to the spam files... so I did not comment on any of your specific
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 5, 2012
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              Hi Dilson and Peter,
               
              I have just noticed that all the mails concerning red birds went to the spam files... so I did not comment on any of your specific mails because I did not read them. Anyway I think that the idea of a double Pied is well understood, as well as its "inheritance mode". Peter provides other exemples of red birds appearing when pied mutation(s) is/are present ... further confirming that melanocytes produce an inhibitory local control on peripheral psittacin production.
               
              Regards
               
              Recio

              From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 7:29 PM
              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
               
              Hi Recio,
               
              Included an example of a Red fronted Kakariki. Higher production of Red is not unusual in pied birds but is usually limited to the tail feathers (around the shaft), the socks and cheeks. I think this bird is a combination of DF pied and recessive pied. Also in Bourkes there are selective breeds of Lutinos with more or less Red.
               
              Regards
              Peter
               
              Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 11:27 AM
              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
               
               
              Hi Dilson,
               
              Could you explain step by step what you are meaning by Double-Pied to produce a DEC grey? Is it mixing dom pied with recessive pied? ... if so ... why the final bird shows a recessive pattern?
               
              ... and I join my question to Favoreu's ... why there are not just white spots if rec or dom pied is in the genetic make up of this bird?  ... Could this be another exemple (maximal example) of melanocytes down regulating psittacin expression so that psittacin becomes apparent when melanocytes are "turned off"? ... Are there exemples in other species in which red feathers pop up in melanin free birds?
               
              Regards
               
              Recio
              From: Xavier Favoreu <triclaria@...>
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 9:19 AM
              Subject: RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
               
              Hi
               
              Those red birds have allways been a mistery for me.
               
              I would expect a DEC grey to be white and not red; if you look at the pictures of lutino and pallid greys that are circulated on the net, you don't see any red pigment hidden under the dark ones.
               
              But in this case, the red pigments seem to be enhanced at the same time as the dark ones disapear. Any idea?
               
              rgds
              Xavier
               
               
               
              --- On Thu, 11/29/12, Dilson Aquino <dilson@...> wrote:

              From: Dilson Aquino <dilson@...>
              Subject: RE: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 29, 2012, 11:31 PM

              Recio,
               
              These are DEC (Dark-eyed Clear) birds, also called Double-Pied. It is created by breeding two birds with the same Pied mutation (two grey parrots with spots of red feathers). The resulting birds are then selectively bred for larger red spots and then to eliminate any grey spots. It is the same process used to create a yellow canary from two variegated canaries or a yellow (dark eye) parrotlet from two Pied parents.
              The inheritance of the final DEC birds is autosomal recessive.
               
              Dilson
              Miami/FL/USA
               
              From: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Recio Joaquin
              Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2012 4:48 PM
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
               
              Hi everybody,
              Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:
              Any idea about the inheritance pattern?
               
              Recio
            • Recio Joaquin
              Correction:   I wrote :From: Recio Joaquin To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com Sent:
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 5, 2012
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                Correction:
                 
                I wrote :
                These results in African Greys further support the hypothesis that the expression of psittacins is down regulated by melanocytes by the production of a paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF), as it was suggested by the studies on dom pied IRN and Spangle budgies (probably also dom pied). In African Greys the red psittacins are not hidden under the black feathers since there are white greys (lutinos lacking the expression of melanin) in which we can clearly see that red psittacin is only expressed in the tail feathers, all other feathers in the body appearing white. In these white lutinos African Greys melanocytes are always present in the feather follicles and inhibit the "spontaneous" production of psittacins. Pieds mutations (probably both dom pied and rec pied) eliminates these melanocytes (or its functional activity concerning the production of PIF) and allow for the expression of red psittacins. In fact the wild African Grey is a green series bird since the gene(s) coding for psittacins is/are not bloqued, but what is bloqued is its peripheral expression (excepting in the tail) due to the local inhibition of psittacin production by melanocytes. This wild grey phenotype is not due to the combination of Blue + Grey mutations, in fact it is a Grey green bird in which there is a peripheral block (in the feather  follicle) in psittacins production.
                 
                I should have written:
                These results in African Greys further support the hypothesis that the expression of psittacins is down regulated by melanocytes by the production of a paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF), as it was suggested by the studies on dom pied IRN and Spangle budgies (probably also dom pied). In African Greys the red psittacins are not hidden under the black feathers since there are soft yellow greys (lutinos lacking the expression of melanin) in which we can clearly see that red psittacin is only expressed in the tail feathers, all other feathers in the body appearing soft yellow and white. In these soft yellow lutinos African Greys, melanocytes are always present in the feather follicles and inhibit the "spontaneous" production of red psittacins. Pieds mutations (probably both dom pied and rec pied) eliminates these melanocytes (or its functional activity concerning the production of PIF) and allow for the expression of red psittacins. In fact the wild African Grey is a green series bird since there is a ligth production of yellow psittacins (not visible to th our eyes in thewild phenotype) and the gene(s) coding for red psittacins is/are not bloqued, but what is bloqued is its peripheral expression (excepting in the tail) due to the local inhibition of red psittacin production by melanocytes. This wild grey phenotype is not due to the combination of Blue + Grey mutations, in fact it is a Grey green bird in which there is a peripheral block (in the feather  follicle) in red psittacins production.
                 
                I hope it is clearer now.
                 
                Recio

                From: Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...>
                To: "Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com" <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 3:19 PM
                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
                 
                Hi everybody,
                 
                The firsts African Greys with some red feathers were birds with a "red factor". This was not uncommon in normal African Greys. Then they produced a higher amount of red feathers mainly in the lower part of the abdomen by probably adding the dom pied mutation (those birds were called F2 pied). Probably the DF dom pied SF "red factor" are the birds showing a big amount of red feathers mainly in the belly and wings but not completelly red. When  pairing two DF dom pied SF "red factor" birds together they were able to produce the completely red bird, making me think that this red bird is a genetic DF dom pied DF "red factor" .... and this is the reason that they sell red pairings as complet red (DF dom pied DF red factor) +" DF bird" (DF dom pied SF red factor).... allowing to obtain 50% complete red greys and 50% incomplete red birds (DF dom pied SF red factor) offspring. Probably the "red factor" is the recessive pied mutation, and in this situation the apparent inheritance behaviour of "red" is autosomal recessive since we are always dealing with DF dom pied in both parents, and SF or DF recessive pied in each parent ... thus the apparent inheritance behaviour depends on rec pied mutation.
                 
                These results in African Greys further support the hypothesis that the expression of psittacins is down regulated by melanocytes by the production of a paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF), as it was suggested by the studies on dom pied IRN and Spangle budgies (probably also dom pied). In African Greys the red psittacins are not hidden under the black feathers since there are white greys (lutinos lacking the expression of melanin) in which we can clearly see that red psittacin is only expressed in the tail feathers, all other feathers in the body appearing white. In these white lutinos African Greys melanocytes are always present in the feather follicles and inhibit the "spontaneous" production of psittacins. Pieds mutations (probably both dom pied and rec pied) eliminates these melanocytes (or its functional activity concerning the production of PIF) and allow for the expression of red psittacins. In fact the wild African Grey is a green series bird since the gene(s) coding for psittacins is/are not bloqued, but what is bloqued is its peripheral expression (excepting in the tail) due to the local inhibition of psittacin production by melanocytes. This wild grey phenotype is not due to the combination of Blue + Grey mutations, in fact it is a Grey green bird in which there is a peripheral block (in the feather  follicle) in psittacins production.
                 
                We have the idea that the production of red psittacins is made by an intermediary product belonging to the familly of yellow psittacins. In African Greys we can see that the expression of yellow psittacins is very "soft" pointing to a low threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for the production of red psittacins. Probably the threshold for production of red psittacins from yellow psittacins is species specific... and we could speculate that, maybe, the action of the Opaline mutation appears by setting this species specific threshold at a lower point, and thus allowing an increase in red psittacins production.
                 
                Does the completelly "red" African Grey show only red psittacins ... or are there yellow psittacin(s) in a very low concentration so that we can not see it? Studies on budgies and IRN have shown that the dom pied mutation induces an increase in the production of yellow fluorescent psittacins, and studies in every red parrot have shown that red psittacofulvines are never fluorescent. If we were able to detect any fluorescence under uv ligth in these "red" African Greys we could reasonably conclude that they are expressing both red and yellow pigments. Could anyone of the SA breeders contact an owner of red African Grey to check for the presence of fluorescence under uv?
                 
                Last thought: if we think that the wild African Grey is the resulting evolution of an initially green parrot ... which are the mutations that have allowed to produce this "wild" phenotype? Something to think about : Grey + Opaline + Increased PIF.
                 
                1. Grey = estructural mutation you all know.
                 
                2. Opaline = mutation acting as a "redistributing factor" ... but could it just be a change (increase) in the activity (affinity-Kd and/or quantity-Bmax) of the enzyme allowing to produce red psittacins from yellow psittacins? It would be the same than saying a decrease in the threshold of yellow psittacin concentration for red psittacin production...
                 
                3. Increased PIF: Can we define a new mutation as an increase in PIF? If it was the case this mutation specific feature would be the peripheral block in the expression of psittacins. This block would disappear when adding dom pied in the genetic make up of the bird. It would be great to detect other species with this specific feature.
                 
                Regards
                 
                Recio

                From: Wynand Bezuidenhout <wynand.bezuidenhout@...>
                To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 6:14 AM
                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
                 
                Hi Recio http://www.redafricangrey.com/
                Wynand
                
                A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
                will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
                				- Herm Albright
                On 29/11/2012 11:48 PM, Recio Joaquin wrote:
                 
                Hi everybody,
                Just have a look at the red grey bred in SA:
                Any idea about the inheritance pattern?
                 
                Recio
              • Wessel Louw van der Veen
                Hello: Have feathers of red African Greys been researched and is it proven that they indeed contain red psittacin ? Does the same hold true for red suffusion
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
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                  Hello:

                  Have feathers of red African Greys been researched and is it proven that
                  they
                  indeed contain red psittacin ?
                  Does the same hold true for "red suffusion" found in several other
                  birdspecies ?

                  Wessel van der Veen.
                • Recio Joaquin
                  Hi Wessel,   I am not saying that the wild African Grey shows any red psittacin, but that he owns all the enzymatic machinery necessary to produce it and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 6, 2012
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                    Hi Wessel,
                     
                    I am not saying that the wild African Grey shows any red psittacin, but that he owns all the enzymatic machinery necessary to produce it and that this system is bloqued in the wild bird by the presence of melanocytes at the feather follicle. Thus when melanocytes disappear or do not function correctly (dom and rec pieds) the system is not further blocked and red psittacin is produced. I postulated that this block is due to a possible paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF) produced by the melanocytes.
                     
                    About the red suffusion ... it is a feature of opaline mutation and I will try to show that both, melanocyte control of red psittacin production and opaline mutation, could act on the same final efector system.
                     
                    We know that Opaline mutation increases the production of yellow and red psittacins. We have also shown that a decrease in paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF) for red psittacin synthesis (because of a lack of melanocytes at the feather follicle) produce the same effect : increased red psittacin production (see attached file). Could both possibilities be, in fact, the same process? Could Opaline mutation act through a decrease in the production of PIF by the melanocytes? If it was the case the redness produced by Opaline would always be lower than the redness produced by DF dom pied (whenever DF dom pied completely eliminates melanocytes from the feather follicle), or we could also say that both "redness" would not be additif. Does anybody know any species in which the combination of DF dom pied mutation (producing a completelly black eye clear bird with some red psittacin) with Opaline produces a bird with a higher amount of red psittacin? ... or the addition of Opaline is not enough to increase redness in a DF dom pied bird?
                    The other possibility is that Opaline directly activates the enzyme transforming yellow psittacin in red psittacin. In this situation the action of both, pied mutation(s) and opaline, would be additif ... and we could reasonably hope to get a red IRN by adding both mutations. I do not know if those combinations have been obtained in any species. Any idea?
                    A last possibility is that Opaline increases the amount in the disponibility of yellow psittacins, and thus it would induce an increase in red psittacin production (threshold effect similar to the production of red psittacin in the ring of IRN). In this case we would also find an additif affect of Pied(s) and Opaline in the production of red psittacins ... together with an increase in the production of yellow psittacins.
                     
                    A last thougth : could also edged be present in the wild African Grey? Have a look at his feathers ... they really look edged.
                     
                    Regards
                     
                    Recio


                    From: Wessel Louw van der Veen <wvdveen@...>
                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 9:29 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
                     
                    Hello:

                    Have feathers of red African Greys been researched and is it proven that
                    they
                    indeed contain red psittacin ?
                    Does the same hold true for "red suffusion" found in several other
                    birdspecies ?

                    Wessel van der Veen.
                  • Recio Joaquin
                    Hi everybody,   Could the Black Cockatoos be also an example of the inhibitory effect of melanocytes on peripheral psittacin expression? Could we ever get a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 3, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi everybody,
                       
                      Could the Black Cockatoos be also an example of the inhibitory effect of melanocytes on peripheral psittacin expression? Could we ever get a red Black Cockatoo by working with pied mutations? ... vey probably.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Recio

                      From: Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...>
                      To: "Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com" <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 9:48 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
                       
                      Hi Wessel,
                       
                      I am not saying that the wild African Grey shows any red psittacin, but that he owns all the enzymatic machinery necessary to produce it and that this system is bloqued in the wild bird by the presence of melanocytes at the feather follicle. Thus when melanocytes disappear or do not function correctly (dom and rec pieds) the system is not further blocked and red psittacin is produced. I postulated that this block is due to a possible paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF) produced by the melanocytes.
                       
                      About the red suffusion ... it is a feature of opaline mutation and I will try to show that both, melanocyte control of red psittacin production and opaline mutation, could act on the same final efector system.
                       
                      We know that Opaline mutation increases the production of yellow and red psittacins. We have also shown that a decrease in paracrine inhibitory factor (PIF) for red psittacin synthesis (because of a lack of melanocytes at the feather follicle) produce the same effect : increased red psittacin production (see attached file). Could both possibilities be, in fact, the same process? Could Opaline mutation act through a decrease in the production of PIF by the melanocytes? If it was the case the redness produced by Opaline would always be lower than the redness produced by DF dom pied (whenever DF dom pied completely eliminates melanocytes from the feather follicle), or we could also say that both "redness" would not be additif. Does anybody know any species in which the combination of DF dom pied mutation (producing a completelly black eye clear bird with some red psittacin) with Opaline produces a bird with a higher amount of red psittacin? ... or the addition of Opaline is not enough to increase redness in a DF dom pied bird?
                      The other possibility is that Opaline directly activates the enzyme transforming yellow psittacin in red psittacin. In this situation the action of both, pied mutation(s) and opaline, would be additif ... and we could reasonably hope to get a red IRN by adding both mutations. I do not know if those combinations have been obtained in any species. Any idea?
                      A last possibility is that Opaline increases the amount in the disponibility of yellow psittacins, and thus it would induce an increase in red psittacin production (threshold effect similar to the production of red psittacin in the ring of IRN). In this case we would also find an additif affect of Pied(s) and Opaline in the production of red psittacins ... together with an increase in the production of yellow psittacins.
                       
                      A last thougth : could also edged be present in the wild African Grey? Have a look at his feathers ... they really look edged.
                       
                      Regards
                       
                      Recio


                      From: Wessel Louw van der Veen <wvdveen@...>
                      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2012 9:29 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Red birds
                       
                      Hello: Have feathers of red African Greys been researched and is it proven that they indeed contain red psittacin ? Does the same hold true for "red suffusion" found in several other birdspecies ? Wessel van der Veen.
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