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Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

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  • Recio Joaquin
    Hi budgies breeders,   Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 3, 2012
      Hi budgies breeders,
       
      Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one :  http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
       
      Regards.
       
      Recio

      From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

       
      Hi Ken,
      I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
       
      Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
       
      Regards
      Peter
       
      From: Ken
      Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
      Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
       
       
      Peter,
      I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.

      Recio,
      I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.

      Ken Yorke
      mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
      http://bit.ly/yorkestuff

      --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Ken,
      >
      > If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
      >
      > Regards
      > Peter
      >
      > From: Ken
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
      > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
      >
      >
      > Recio and Others,
      >
      > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
      >
      > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
      >
      > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2 Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
      >
      > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
      >
      > Ken Yorke
      > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
      > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
      >
      > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thank you Peter,
      > > Ã
      > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
      > > Ã
      > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
      > > Ã
      > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
      > > Ã
      > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
      > > Ã
      > > First locus :
      > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 : Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
      > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
      > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
      > > Ã
      > > Second locus:
      > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
      > > à à à à à à à à 3.1 : Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
      > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
      > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
      > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched psittacin).
      > > Ã
      > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
      > > Ã
      > > Regards
      > > Ã
      > > Recio
      > >
      > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
      > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
      > >
      > >
      > > Ã
      > > Hi Recio,
      > >
      > > I like this one.
      > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
      > >
      > > Regards
      > > Peter
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Recio Joaquin
      > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
      > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
      > >
      > > Ã
      > >
      > > Hi everybody,
      > >
      > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
      > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
      > >
      > > Thank you
      > >
      > > Recio
      > >
      >



    • Chris Whipps
      G,Day Recio , A friend of mine John Shannon has been teaching me uv photography, These are a couple of pics hes sent me . Hope they help.He only owns 2
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 4, 2012
        G,Day Recio , A friend of mine John Shannon has been teaching me uv photography, These are a couple of pics hes sent me . Hope they help.He only owns 2 budgies.

        Regards, Chris
        Ph: 0415 870 336

        http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au



        From: "Recio Joaquin" <jrecio99@...>
        Sent: Monday, 4 June 2012 7:02 AM
        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies


         

        Hi budgies breeders,
         
        Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one :  http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
         
        Regards.
         
        Recio

        From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

         
        Hi Ken,
        I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
         
        Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
         
        Regards
        Peter
         
        From: Ken
        Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
         
         
        Peter,
        I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.

        Recio,
        I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.

        Ken Yorke
        mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
        http://bit.ly/yorkestuff

        --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Ken,
        >
        > If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
        >
        > Regards
        > Peter
        >
        > From: Ken
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
        > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
        >
        >
        > Recio and Others,
        >
        > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
        >
        > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
        >
        > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2 Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
        >
        > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
        >
        > Ken Yorke
        > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
        > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
        >
        > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Thank you Peter,
        > > Ã
        > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
        > > Ã
        > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
        > > Ã
        > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
        > > Ã
        > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
        > > Ã
        > > First locus :
        > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 : Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
        > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
        > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
        > > Ã
        > > Second locus:
        > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
        > > à à à à à à à à 3.1 : Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
        > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
        > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
        > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched psittacin).
        > > Ã
        > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
        > > Ã
        > > Regards
        > > Ã
        > > Recio
        > >
        > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
        > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
        > >
        > >
        > > Ã
        > > Hi Recio,
        > >
        > > I like this one.
        > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Peter
        > >
        > >
        > > From: Recio Joaquin
        > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
        > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
        > >
        > > Ã
        > >
        > > Hi everybody,
        > >
        > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
        > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
        > >
        > > Thank you
        > >
        > > Recio
        > >
        >




      • Ken
        Recio, The bird photo in that article with the pale yellow face is the YELLOWFACE MUTANT 1 (aka YELLOWFACE TYPE 1, aka CREAMFACE, aka LEMONFACE). As I said in
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 4, 2012
          Recio,
          The bird photo in that article with the pale yellow face is the YELLOWFACE MUTANT 1 (aka YELLOWFACE TYPE 1, aka CREAMFACE, aka LEMONFACE). As I said in a previous post this bird is the one which has ONLY flourescent UV yellow pigment (according to experiments done by Don Burke and others).

          The AUSTRALIAN YELLOWFACE (aka GOLDENFACE) has mostly non-flourescent pigment with a small amount of flourescent pigment. The normal green is similar.

          There have been no tests done on the YELLOWFACE MUTANT2 that I know of.

          Ken Yorke
          kyorke@...
          http://bit.ly/yorkestuff


          The

          --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi budgies breeders,
          >  
          > Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one : http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
          >  
          > Regards.
          >  
          > Recio
          >
          > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
          > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
          >
          >
          >  
          > Hi Ken,
          > I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
          >
          > Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
          >
          > Regards
          > Peter
          >
          >
          > From: Ken
          > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
          > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
          >
          >  
          > Peter,
          > I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.
          >
          > Recio,
          > I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.
          >
          > Ken Yorke
          > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
          > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
          >
          > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Ken,
          > >
          > > If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
          > >
          > > Regards
          > > Peter
          > >
          > > From: Ken
          > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
          > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
          > >
          > >
          > > Recio and Others,
          > >
          > > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
          > >
          > > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
          > >
          > > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2 Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
          > >
          > > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
          > >
          > > Ken Yorke
          > > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
          > > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
          > >
          > > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Thank you Peter,
          > > > Ã
          > > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
          > > > Ã
          > > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
          > > > Ã
          > > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
          > > > Ã
          > > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
          > > > Ã
          > > > First locus :
          > > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 : Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
          > > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
          > > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
          > > > Ã
          > > > Second locus:
          > > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
          > > > à à à à à à à à 3.1 : Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
          > > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
          > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
          > > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched psittacin).
          > > > Ã
          > > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
          > > > Ã
          > > > Regards
          > > > Ã
          > > > Recio
          > > >
          > > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
          > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
          > > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Ã
          > > > Hi Recio,
          > > >
          > > > I like this one.
          > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
          > > >
          > > > Regards
          > > > Peter
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > From: Recio Joaquin
          > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
          > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
          > > >
          > > > Ã
          > > >
          > > > Hi everybody,
          > > >
          > > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
          > > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
          > > >
          > > > Thank you
          > > >
          > > > Recio
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Recio Joaquin
          Thank you for answering Ken,   The australian yellow face (golden face) has a marked fluorescence in the mask and not at all in the body and wing feathers. In
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 4, 2012
            Thank you for answering Ken,
             
            The australian yellow face (golden face) has a marked fluorescence in the mask and not at all in the body and wing feathers. In IRN the presence of fluorescence in non-aqua parblue mutations depends on the amount of non-fluorescent psittacin : in birds with a high quantity of non fluorescent psittacin the fluorescent areas are evident (green, lutinos), and when the non fluorescent psittacin decreases (turquoise, indigo) the amount of fluorescence also deacreases (turquoise) or disappears (indigo). This is the reason why I was expecting that budgies with a low psittacin content in the mask could not be fluorescent at all, or very slightly... and that is why I was expecting the yellow face mutant 1 to show less (if any) fluorescence in the mask than the golden face. Could you re-direct us to the results of Don Burke?
             
            The aqua (or emerald) mutation in IRN is a very different parblue mutation, acting on a completely different mechanism than the other parblues.
             
            Regards
             
            Recio

            From: Ken <kyorke@...>
            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 1:25 PM
            Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

             
            Recio,
            The bird photo in that article with the pale yellow face is the YELLOWFACE MUTANT 1 (aka YELLOWFACE TYPE 1, aka CREAMFACE, aka LEMONFACE). As I said in a previous post this bird is the one which has ONLY flourescent UV yellow pigment (according to experiments done by Don Burke and others).

            The AUSTRALIAN YELLOWFACE (aka GOLDENFACE) has mostly non-flourescent pigment with a small amount of flourescent pigment. The normal green is similar.

            There have been no tests done on the YELLOWFACE MUTANT2 that I know of.

            Ken Yorke
            kyorke@...
            http://bit.ly/yorkestuff

            The

            --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi budgies breeders,
            >  
            > Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one : http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
            >  
            > Regards.
            >  
            > Recio
            >
            > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
            > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
            >
            >
            >  
            > Hi Ken,
            > I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same
            comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
            >
            > Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by
            Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
            >
            > Regards
            > Peter
            >
            >
            > From: Ken
            > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
            > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
            >
            >  
            > Peter,
            > I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book
            says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.
            >
            > Recio,
            > I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.
            >
            > Ken Yorke
            > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
            > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
            >
            > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Ken,
            > >
            > >
            If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
            > >
            > > Regards
            > > Peter
            > >
            > > From: Ken
            > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
            > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
            > >
            > >
            > > Recio and Others,
            > >
            > > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the
            "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
            > >
            > > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
            > >
            > > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2
            Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
            > >
            > > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
            > >
            > > Ken Yorke
            > > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
            > > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
            > >
            > > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Thank you Peter,
            > > > Ã
            > > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and
            I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
            > > > Ã
            > > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
            > > > Ã
            > > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in
            IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
            > > > Ã
            > > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
            > > > Ã
            > > > First locus :
            > > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 :
            Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
            > > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
            > > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
            > > > Ã
            > > > Second locus:
            > > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.1 :
            Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
            > > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
            > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
            > > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched
            psittacin).
            > > > Ã
            > > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
            > > > Ã
            > > > Regards
            > > > Ã
            > > > Recio
            > > >
            > > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
            > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
            > > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Ã
            > > > Hi Recio,
            > > >
            > > > I like this one.
            > > >
            target=_blank>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > > Peter
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > From: Recio Joaquin
            > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
            > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
            > > >
            > > > Ã
            > > >
            > > > Hi everybody,
            > > >
            > > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
            > > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
            > > >
            > > > Thank you
            > > >
            > > > Recio
            > > >
            > >
            >



          • Recio Joaquin
            Hi Ken and everybody,   I have been looking for Don Burke pics of budgies and I have found no one pic of any blue bird with light yellow mask. May be it has
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 5, 2012
              Hi Ken and everybody,
               
              I have been looking for Don Burke pics of budgies and I have found no one pic of any blue bird with light yellow mask. May be it has not been published, may be it was just a speculation thinking that the only possibility of fluorescence was the yellow mask since there was not any other psittacin in the rest of the body, and that the yellow mask is fluorescent in every other mutation keeping the expression of yellow psittacin in the mask.
               
              If anyone could shed more light ... uv ...
               
              Regards
               
              Recio

              From: Ken <kyorke@...>
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 1:25 PM
              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

               
              Recio,
              The bird photo in that article with the pale yellow face is the YELLOWFACE MUTANT 1 (aka YELLOWFACE TYPE 1, aka CREAMFACE, aka LEMONFACE). As I said in a previous post this bird is the one which has ONLY flourescent UV yellow pigment (according to experiments done by Don Burke and others).

              The AUSTRALIAN YELLOWFACE (aka GOLDENFACE) has mostly non-flourescent pigment with a small amount of flourescent pigment. The normal green is similar.

              There have been no tests done on the YELLOWFACE MUTANT2 that I know of.

              Ken Yorke
              kyorke@...
              http://bit.ly/yorkestuff

              The

              --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi budgies breeders,
              >  
              > Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one : http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
              >  
              > Regards.
              >  
              > Recio
              >
              > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
              > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
              >
              >
              >  
              > Hi Ken,
              > I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same
              comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
              >
              > Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by
              Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
              >
              > Regards
              > Peter
              >
              >
              > From: Ken
              > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
              > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
              >
              >  
              > Peter,
              > I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book
              says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.
              >
              > Recio,
              > I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.
              >
              > Ken Yorke
              > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
              > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
              >
              > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Ken,
              > >
              > >
              If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > Peter
              > >
              > > From: Ken
              > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
              > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
              > >
              > >
              > > Recio and Others,
              > >
              > > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the
              "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
              > >
              > > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
              > >
              > > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2
              Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
              > >
              > > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
              > >
              > > Ken Yorke
              > > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
              > > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
              > >
              > > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Thank you Peter,
              > > > Ã
              > > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and
              I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
              > > > Ã
              > > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
              > > > Ã
              > > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in
              IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
              > > > Ã
              > > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
              > > > Ã
              > > > First locus :
              > > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 :
              Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
              > > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
              > > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
              > > > Ã
              > > > Second locus:
              > > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.1 :
              Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
              > > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
              > > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
              > > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched
              psittacin).
              > > > Ã
              > > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
              > > > Ã
              > > > Regards
              > > > Ã
              > > > Recio
              > > >
              > > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
              > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
              > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
              > > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Ã
              > > > Hi Recio,
              > > >
              > > > I like this one.
              > > >
              target=_blank>http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
              > > >
              > > > Regards
              > > > Peter
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > From: Recio Joaquin
              > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
              > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
              > > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
              > > >
              > > > Ã
              > > >
              > > > Hi everybody,
              > > >
              > > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
              > > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
              > > >
              > > > Thank you
              > > >
              > > > Recio
              > > >
              > >
              >



            • Ken
              Recio, Don has published several articles in the budgie press and in his own nationwide general public magazine on the UV subject including photos.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 6, 2012
                Recio,
                Don has published several articles in the budgie press and in his own nationwide general public magazine on the UV subject including photos. Unfortunately most of the articles are over 12 months old and seem to have been taken down from websites. Perhaps they will pop up again, otherwise they still exist in some budgerigar club magazines in printed form only.

                I found this one on Don's site but it does not deal specifically with parblue birds as this particular article had a different bias and was aimed at the general public audience. http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/2002/archives/2002?p=821

                I have also seen him give practical demonstrations at budgerigar club meetings with his portable UV lights on both Mutant 1 YF and Australian YF with the results I mentioned in earlier posts.

                Ken Yorke
                kyorke@...
                http://bit.ly/yorkestuff


                --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Ken and everybody,
                >  
                > I have been looking for Don Burke pics of budgies and I have found no one pic of any blue bird with light yellow mask. May be it has not been published, may be it was just a speculation thinking that the only possibility of fluorescence was the yellow mask since there was not any other psittacin in the rest of the body, and that the yellow mask is fluorescent in every other mutation keeping the expression of yellow psittacin in the mask.
                >  
                > If anyone could shed more light ... uv ...
                >  
                > Regards
                >  
                > Recio
                >
                > From: Ken <kyorke@...>
                > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 1:25 PM
                > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                >
                >
                >  
                > Recio,
                > The bird photo in that article with the pale yellow face is the YELLOWFACE MUTANT 1 (aka YELLOWFACE TYPE 1, aka CREAMFACE, aka LEMONFACE). As I said in a previous post this bird is the one which has ONLY flourescent UV yellow pigment (according to experiments done by Don Burke and others).
                >
                > The AUSTRALIAN YELLOWFACE (aka GOLDENFACE) has mostly non-flourescent pigment with a small amount of flourescent pigment. The normal green is similar.
                >
                > There have been no tests done on the YELLOWFACE MUTANT2 that I know of.
                >
                > Ken Yorke
                > kyorke@...
                > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
                >
                > The
                >
                > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi budgies breeders,
                > >  
                > > Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one : http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
                > >  
                > > Regards.
                > >  
                > > Recio
                > >
                > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
                > > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                > >
                > >
                > >  
                > > Hi Ken,
                > > I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
                > >
                > > Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
                > >
                > > Regards
                > > Peter
                > >
                > >
                > > From: Ken
                > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
                > > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                > >
                > >  
                > > Peter,
                > > I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.
                > >
                > > Recio,
                > > I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.
                > >
                > > Ken Yorke
                > > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
                > > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
                > >
                > > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Ken,
                > > >
                > > > If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
                > > >
                > > > Regards
                > > > Peter
                > > >
                > > > From: Ken
                > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
                > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Recio and Others,
                > > >
                > > > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
                > > >
                > > > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
                > > >
                > > > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2 Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
                > > >
                > > > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
                > > >
                > > > Ken Yorke
                > > > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
                > > > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
                > > >
                > > > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Thank you Peter,
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > I have also loved reading it andÃÆ' its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereÃÆ' is anÃÆ' interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)ÃÆ' paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. TryingÃÆ' to correlateÃÆ' with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > First locus :
                > > > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 1.2 : Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
                > > > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedÃÆ' patched psittacin).
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > Second locus:
                > > > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 3.1 : HomozygousÃÆ' : phenotype similar to blue.
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
                > > > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....ÃÆ' fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
                > > > > ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' ÃÆ' For the parblue mutantÃÆ' 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showÃÆ' normal psittacin (normalÃÆ' patched psittacin).
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > Regards
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > Recio
                > > > >
                > > > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
                > > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
                > > > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > > Hi Recio,
                > > > >
                > > > > I like this one.
                > > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
                > > > >
                > > > > Regards
                > > > > Peter
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > From: Recio Joaquin
                > > > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
                > > > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
                > > > >
                > > > > ÃÆ'
                > > > >
                > > > > Hi everybody,
                > > > >
                > > > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
                > > > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
                > > > >
                > > > > Thank you
                > > > >
                > > > > Recio
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Recio Joaquin
                Hi Chris,   Those are really good quality pics. Two comments:   About the budgie : increased fluorescence in the pied mutation clearly seen in your pics (the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 7, 2012
                  Hi Chris,
                   
                  Those are really good quality pics. Two comments:
                   
                  About the budgie : increased fluorescence in the pied mutation clearly seen in your pics (the same than previously reported in budgies and IRN)
                   
                  About the lutino IRN : great fluorescence with your broad spectrum uv lamp and it seems that the head shows a different psittacin type. In my first descrption I wrote that the head patched fluorescent psittacin was present in two forms : one deep yellow and one flashing psittacin mainly in the forehead. Could you take a closer pic of the head of this lutino bird to see these differences? It would be great to look at the same time to a lutino female to look for sex specific differences in the patched head psittacin.
                   
                  Regards
                   
                  Recio

                  From: Chris Whipps <chris@...>
                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 10:17 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

                   
                  G,Day Recio , A friend of mine John Shannon has been teaching me uv photography, These are a couple of pics hes sent me . Hope they help.He only owns 2 budgies.

                  Regards, Chris
                  Ph: 0415 870 336

                  http://www.mcw-indianringnecks.com.au


                  From: "Recio Joaquin" <jrecio99@...>
                  Sent: Monday, 4 June 2012 7:02 AM
                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies


                   
                  Hi budgies breeders,
                   
                  Has anybody look under uv the blue budgies with a light yellow mask? I am guessing that the light yellow mask is not fluorescent, and these mutations coud be the counterpart of indigo or saphire in IRN. I am speaking of birds like this one : http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
                   
                  Regards.
                   
                  Recio

                  From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 7:48 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies

                   
                  Hi Ken,
                  I was referring to an article made by Ghalib Al-Nasser but now I remember Terry already made the same comment on this in the past. The quote below doesn’t say literally its about a mutant 2 YF but I saw no mention about a Goldenface. That’s why I reasoned it was about the mutant 2 YF.
                   
                  Quote:The work of John Papin published in 1964, further supported by Prof. Taylor, postulated that the Yellowface mutation was caused by a dominant yellow restricting factor that had the effect of removing some of the yellow pigment from green series birds which resulted in producing Yellowfaced blue series progeny. This Yellowface restricting factor has a varying effect on the density of the yellow remaining and this could account for the various types of the Yellowface mutations that we have. His work further highlighted the possibility that when two Yellowfaced birds paired together the combination of yellow restricting factor of both birds to increase to such an extent that whitefaced birds will appear. This theory was put to the test by Ken Gray in the 1970s and proven beyond doubt that this is true. http://www.bestofbreeds.net/al-nasser/article12.htm
                   
                  Regards
                  Peter
                   
                  From: Ken
                  Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 4:21 PM
                  Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                   
                   
                  Peter,
                  I don't think that is correct about whitefaced blues coming from mating two homozygous Mutant2 YF (unless I misread your meaning). I have never heard of this and Ken Gray's book "Rainbow budgerigars and constituent varieties" published in 1990 (which would supercede anything from the 1970s)does not mention this. In fact his book says that a compound Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF looks very similar to a homozygous Mutant 2 YF. Thus mating two of the Mutant2 YF/Mutant1 YF types together would in fact give you 25% homozygous Mutant 1 YF (the ones with the white face) assuming of course they are multiple alleles.

                  Recio,
                  I will see if I can find some decent photos for Australian YF and also Mutant 1 YF from when I published my book or elsewhere. Photos of genuine Mutant 2 YF will be hard to find as I know I only have one which was given to me by someone else to use in my book and I can't post that to the group due to copyright laws.

                  Ken Yorke
                  mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
                  http://bit.ly/yorkestuff

                  --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wouters" <wouterscalant@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Ken,
                  >
                  > If Iâm not mistaking the Yellowface mutant 2(or should we say Turquoise) has a varying effect on the density of the remaining yellow. In the 1970âs Ken Gray proved that a pairing of 2 homozygous Yellowface mutant 2 increased the yellow restricting factor to such an extent that whitefaced (Blue) birds appeared. Is it possible that the Yellow face mutant 1 is in fact an advanced Yellowface mutant 2?
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Peter
                  >
                  > From: Ken
                  > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:11 PM
                  > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Parblues in budgies
                  >
                  >
                  > Recio and Others,
                  >
                  > The current ASSUMPTION in budgerigars is that all the yellowface mutations are all multiples alleles of the blue locus. This assumption may or may not be correct. It is fairly certain that one of the "English" Yellowfaces (probably the Mutant 1 Yellowface aka creamface) is a multiple allele of blue. As far back as the 1960s Taylor and Warner's book suggested that the Mutant 1 YF was a multiple allele of blue. Since that time, some other anecdotal non-scientific breeding results has also suggested this, BUT many people have difficulty recognising the different mutations and they have all been interbred. So a definitive study of all the mutations is still required.
                  >
                  > I am not an expert in the flourescence aspects (which suggest there may be more than one locus at work), however as I understand it recent work by Don Burke and others here in Australia has shown that the Mutant 1 YF (aka creamface) has only UV pigment. The Australian Yellowface (aka Goldenface) has mostly non-UV pigment plus a small amount of UV pigment and is similar to normal green in this respect.
                  >
                  > I know of no studies on the Mutant 2 Yellowface which according to some sources is now actually scarce. (But even this scarcity is not confirmed due to common misidentification)
                  >
                  > P.S. It also appears that in Australia we have yet another brand new mutation which is tentatively being called "Whitecap" which has yellow lower mask and white forehead. This one is still being researched by the few breeders who have it.
                  >
                  > Ken Yorke
                  > mailto:kyorke%40tpg.com.au
                  > http://bit.ly/yorkestuff
                  >
                  > --- In mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com, Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thank you Peter,
                  > > Ã
                  > > I have also loved reading it andà its discussion, and see that most of the hypothesis concerning parblues in IRN had been previously considered in budgies... and I can also see that the question of one or two loci remains open. It seems that nobody has ever got a green bird by crossing an homozygous blue mutant 1 to an homozygous blue mutant 2 (it would be imposible since heterozygous mutants 2 are not green) and it also seems that probably thereà is anà interaction between the two loci, if they ever exist. This situation is similar to IRN.
                  > > Ã
                  > > IRN breeders use to pair parblue to blue birds, and thus it is not possible to get "strange" things as a green bird in a nest of parblue parents. Right now I have an homozygous turquoise male (almost green)Ã paired to an indigo female (almost blue and non fluorescent, probably heterozygous indigo-blue) .... will see if I get some "strange" offspring.
                  > > Ã
                  > > This green offspring from parblue parents has been reported in other species of parrots so if we try, maybe, we could show it also in IRN. Otherwise, if we do not get it we could not say for sure that the two loci do not exist. They could be so closed that interaction between both of them could make heterozygous birds for each locus look as a parblue.
                  > > Ã
                  > > I have summarize the article of Ken York's under the hypothesis of two loci. Tryingà to correlateà with IRN findings: patched psittacin in budgies is the mask (sex dependency and a role in sexual behaviour, great fluorescence in wild animals) and the even psittacin is found in the wings and body (non fluorescent in wild animals ... but becoming fluorescent in pied birds ... like in IRN).
                  > > Ã
                  > > First locus :
                  > > 1. Blue mutant 1 or "standard" blue (no psittacin).
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.1 : Homozygous .... standard blue ... non fluorescencent
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 1.2 : Heterozygous : wild bird split blue
                  > > 2. Allele of the blue mutant 1 or Parblue mutant 1 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, English yellow face).
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.1 : Homozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 parblue1): middle yellow face and yellow sufusion body
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 2.2 : Heterozygous parblue 1 (parblue 1 blue mutant 1): similar mask and increase yellow sufusion in the body respective to the homozygous form.
                  > > à à à à For the parblue mutant 1 I have not found any study on fluorescence. In both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask show decreased psittacin (decreasedà patched psittacin).
                  > > Ã
                  > > Second locus:
                  > > 3. Blue mutant 2 (other names : yellow face mutant 1, creamface, English yellow face).
                  > > à à à à à à à à 3.1 : Homozygousà : phenotype similar to blue.
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 3.2 : Heterozygous : pale yellow face with blue body (thus the blue mutant 2 is codominant respective to the wild allele, since we get an intermedial phenotype)
                  > > 4. Allele of the blue mutant 2 or parblue mutant 2 (other names : Australian yellow face, golden face)
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.1 : Homozygous : bright yellow face, little psittacin in the body. ....Ã fluorescent mask and non fluorescent body psittacin (this is the aqua mutation in budgies).
                  > > Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã Ã 4.2 : Heterozygous : bright yellow face and a lot of psittacin in the body (almost like a green bird). No fluorescence studies.
                  > > à à à à For the parblue mutantà 2 in both forms (homozygous and heterozygous) the mask showà normal psittacin (normalà patched psittacin).
                  > > Ã
                  > > If I was a budgie breeder and that I wanted to prove that there are two blue loci, I would try to pair homozygous parblue type 1 to homozygous parblue type 2 trying to get a green bird from parblues in budgies. Has it ever been done?
                  > > Ã
                  > > Regards
                  > > Ã
                  > > Recio
                  > >
                  > > From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@>
                  > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:39 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Ã
                  > > Hi Recio,
                  > >
                  > > I like this one.
                  > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetics-Psittacine/message/17508
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > Peter
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: Recio Joaquin
                  > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 9:26 PM
                  > > To: mailto:Genetics-Psittacine%40yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Parblues in budgies
                  > >
                  > > Ã
                  > >
                  > > Hi everybody,
                  > >
                  > > There are 2 blue mutations described in budgies. Could anybody please
                  > > explain the parblue types corresponding at each mutation?
                  > >
                  > > Thank you
                  > >
                  > > Recio
                  > >
                  >






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