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Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds

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  • Mick Blake [Exotic Parrots & Karmic Aviar
    Hi Wynand, now that bird may be related to my she all so killed a couple males, but she end up being a great mum, the thing with her being a *Bronze-fallow is
    Message 1 of 39 , Sep 1, 2011
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      Hi Wynand,
       
      now that bird may be related to my she all so killed a couple males, but she end up being a great mum, the thing with her being a *Bronze-fallow is the hen in the mutation don't have coloured heads only the male *Bronze-fallow just a coloured head, so I would put penny to pound that she a palliad hen,
       
      Mick
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds

       

      Hi Mick

      I also thought them to be Pallid and each and every person that has seen them also thought the same. But...

      Here is the full history. I'm going to call it *Bronze-fallow* for now.

      Hen #1032 (original *Bronze-fallow*/blue bird)
      2005
      Round 1: Paired to TurquoiseBlue/bronze-fallow and she promptly killed the TurquoiseBlue/bronze-fallow.
      Round 2: Paired to a Blue cock. Laid 4 eggs but all were infertile.
      2006
      Paired her to a Blue/bronze-fallow and she promptly killed him as well.
      Round 2: Got a Grey cock from a friends killer aviary. She put in a lot of effort to kill him as well but he fought back and eventually they had 4 fertile eggs of which 3 hatched but one night during a heavy thunderstorm I lost all three chicks.
      2007
      Round 1: Paired to the Grey cock she laid 4 eggs. Started incubating on the second egg and died laying the 4th egg. Vet called it Prolapse. Moved the eggs to other hens but only one hatched. It is a Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*. This chick is a cock and up to now I did not get any fertile eggs from him. He's paired to a Grey/bronze-fallow this year and she only started to lay yesterday.

      Hen #1039 (original *Bronze-fallow/?blue bird)
      2005
      Round 1: Paired to Blue/bronze-fallow cock. Laid only one egg, it was fertile but didn't hatch.
      2006
      Round 1: Paired to a Blue. Laid 3 eggs, 2 fertile and both hatched. Both chicks were Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*. (#312 features again later)
      2007
      Round 1: Paired to the same Blue. Laid 4 eggs. 3 fertile, 3 hatched but only 2 survived. Both survivors were Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*.
      2008
      Round 1: Paired to a Blue Cleartailed. Laid 3 eggs, 3 fertile but none hatched.
      Round 2: Paired to same Blue Cleartailed. Laid 4 eggs. 3 hatched, 2 survived. Both survivors were Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow* (#356 features again later)
      2009
      Round 1: Paired to a Blue (same one as 2006). Laid 3 eggs then died. Eggbound. 3 eggs fertile but none hatched.

      Hen #312 Green/blue/*bronze-fallow* (daughter to Hen #1039 from 2006)
      2008
      Round 1: Paired to Grey cock (same killer cock from 2006). Laid 4 eggs, 3 fertile. Sold 2 for handrearing from the nest but kept back a Grey/?*bronze-fallow* (#377 features again later) chick that had lighter toenails than a normal Grey.

      Cock #377 Grey/?*bronze-fallow* (son of #312) paired to hen #356 Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow* (daughter of #1039) (so this cock is actually paired to his aunt)
      2010
      Round 1: Laid 5 eggs, 2 fertile but only one hatched. (#F014)

      Haven't got a picture of this bird but it looks exactly like the original two hens that I purchased as Bronze-fallows. Same green body, yellow head and red eyes but it was sexed as a cock??? He's a year old now.

      You can't breed a visual Pallid cock if the hen is not visual to Pallid. Remember the hen is a Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow*. This rules out Pallid.

      I sent a picture of one of the original hens to Sjack Bastiaan and he also think it's not Bronze-fallow. Doesn't know what it is either but doesn't think it's Bronze-fallow.

      It has to be a recessive mutation of some sort. Neither parents are visual so it can't be Dominant or Co-Dominant. Can't be Sex-linked Recessive because the hen has to be visual for SL mutation before you can breed a visual SL cock.

      What I have noticed; The Green birds that are split to *bronze-fallow* are a different green colour than a normal green. More of a luminescent green. The Grey/*bronze-fallow* also has lighter toenails than a normal Grey bird. His colour is the same as a normal grey bird though. They are difficult breeders. They are aggressive. The sister of #356 were given to a friend. He paired her to a Grey Cleartailed cock and she almost killed the cock as well. He was luckily removed before he was actually killed but it was a close call.

      There is also the possibility that the bird was incorrectly sexed so have to keep this in mind. If this is the case then it's in all probability a Pallid.

      Wynand
      
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
      will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
      				- Herm Albright

      On 01/09/2011 01:05 AM, Mick Blake [Exotic Parrots & Karmic Aviaries] wrote:
       

      Hi Wynand,
       
      pic 70 look like a palliad, and pic 40 like like a hen we bred back in the early 90's out of a grey-green cock, She look like a yellow headed cinnamon but she would produce palliad went mate to palliad males and she would produce cinnamon when mated to cinnamon males and we still belive she was a cross over bird as a Palliad Cinnamon, I only got rid of her last year. I gave her to old chap up the road.
       
      Pic is of her, and she had a red eye.
       
      Mick
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:28 AM
      Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds

       

      Attached is a couple of pictures of two birds that were bought, over the phone, as Bronze-fallow/?blue. (Mistake buying a bird unseen but this is how we learn: schoolfees!) Don't know which photo is which hen  :-[

      Unfortunately both hens died a couple of years after I purchased them. Both hens looked the same. Could have been sisters.

      The thread is actually about the one with the Blue CLeartailed cock. In your opinion; What were these birds?

      Will provide more information later.

      -- 
      Wynand
      
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
      will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
      				- Herm Albright

    • Wynand Bezuidenhout
      Hi Deon/Stefan In ringnecks there are only the two known alleles (NSL.Ino and Bronze-fallow) so far. Other species has others as well (NSL.Ino,
      Message 39 of 39 , Sep 5, 2011
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        Hi Deon/Stefan

        In ringnecks there are only the two known alleles (NSL.Ino and Bronze-fallow) so far. Other species has others as well (NSL.Ino, Dark-eyed-clear, Bronze-fallow and Pastel).

        Cleartail might still be allelic to a-locus if this birds I have are not allelic to a-locus. If this birds I have are in fact allelic to the a-locus it would have proven that Cleartail are not allelic to the a-locus.

        Deon: What were the hen paired to last year and what did you get from them?
        Wynand
        
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
        				- Herm Albright

        On 03/09/2011 09:44 AM, Stefan Adam wrote:  
        Hi Deon,

        until now there only two forms of the multiple allele of the a locus.

        the normal NSLino (a) and the other form is bronze fallow (a*bz). because of the two kinds of phenotype in cleartails lines
        the cleartail mutation was supposed to be an allele of the a locus too. But after the last mail of Wynand this theory can't hold
        any longer. He got only normal green offspring split for NSLino resp. bronzefallow split cleartail split blue from a pair cleartail blue
        x bronzefallow(NSLino???) /blue. if these mutations were alleles of the same locus such a offspring wouldn't appear.

        I know tienie from a hole bunch of emails. He tried to proove the same thing. but unfortunally all pairs which were used for proving
        didn't get any offspring. So Wynands results are very important.

        S. Adam



        Von: Deon Smith <gms1@...>
        An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Gesendet: Freitag, den 2. September 2011, 21:52:27 Uhr
        Betreff: [Genetics-Psittacine] Alleloforms of the NSL Ino locus

         

        Wynand, Stephane,
         
        I have a homozygous NSL Ino hen which I acquired from Tienie Carr, a prolific breeder that produced 2 fertile eggs last year at 1 year old, now paired up with a Clearhead Fallow/blue  cock.
         
        Stephane, will you please list the known alleloforms of the a-locus (NSL Ino)
         
        Deon
         
        Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 7:42 AM
        Subject: Re: AW: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds
         
         

        Hi Stefan

        It's one of the possibilities. To test this I would need him to be a cock (will have him sexed again) and then one year to breed him with a NSL.Ino and one year with a Bronze-fallow. Problem is bronze-fallow is in short supply and NSL.Ino in even shorter supply.

        Since I don't have either of those hens he has to go with a Dark Blue hen next year. If there are hens from this pairing and they are normal coloured then he is not Pallid and this will then be ruled out for sure.

        My Bronze-fallow/?blue x Dark TurquoiseBlue/bronze-fallow pair has let me down again. Six fertile eggs and then she abandoned the nest a week before they were supposed to hatch. I was hoping to breed one of the hens I need from this pairing but alas...

        I will have a talk to Tienie sometime.

        Wynand
        
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
        				- Herm Albright

        On 01/09/2011 10:06 AM, Stefan Adam wrote:
         
        Hi Wynand,
         
        really a nice bird. But back to the fact of the yellow headed hens. Could the hens be the mixed type of bronze fallow and nslino?
        Remember bronze fallow is an allele of nslino. So a bird carrying both alleles should show a phenotype between nslino and bronze fallow (see pallid and ino => pallid ino). And it is possible that the mixed type gets the yellow head at birth and the true bronze fallow only then matured.
         
        I have discussed this topic last year with tienie carr from South Africa. So perhaps you can talk to him to get some more infos.
         
        carr.birds(at)gmail.com
         
        greetings.
         
        S. Adam
         
         
         

        Von: Wynand Bezuidenhout mailto:wynand.bezuidenhout@...
        An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 1. September 2011, 9:34:09 Uhr
        Betreff: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds

         

        And the male Bronze-fallow only get the lighter head when it's mature. Attached two pictures of a Bronze-fallow cock (same bird young and mature).

        Wynand
        
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
        				- Herm Albright

        On 01/09/2011 09:27 AM, Mick Blake [Exotic Parrots & Karmic Aviaries] wrote:
         
        Hi Wynand,
         
        now that bird may be related to my she all so killed a couple males, but she end up being a great mum, the thing with her being a *Bronze-fallow is the hen in the mutation don't have coloured heads only the male *Bronze-fallow just a coloured head, so I would put penny to pound that she a palliad hen,
         
        Mick
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 4:56 PM
        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds
         
         

        Hi Mick

        I also thought them to be Pallid and each and every person that has seen them also thought the same. But...

        Here is the full history. I'm going to call it *Bronze-fallow* for now.

        Hen #1032 (original *Bronze-fallow*/blue bird)
        2005
        Round 1: Paired to TurquoiseBlue/bronze-fallow and she promptly killed the TurquoiseBlue/bronze-fallow.
        Round 2: Paired to a Blue cock. Laid 4 eggs but all were infertile.
        2006
        Paired her to a Blue/bronze-fallow and she promptly killed him as well.
        Round 2: Got a Grey cock from a friends killer aviary. She put in a lot of effort to kill him as well but he fought back and eventually they had 4 fertile eggs of which 3 hatched but one night during a heavy thunderstorm I lost all three chicks.
        2007
        Round 1: Paired to the Grey cock she laid 4 eggs. Started incubating on the second egg and died laying the 4th egg. Vet called it Prolapse. Moved the eggs to other hens but only one hatched. It is a Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*. This chick is a cock and up to now I did not get any fertile eggs from him. He's paired to a Grey/bronze-fallow this year and she only started to lay yesterday.

        Hen #1039 (original *Bronze-fallow/?blue bird)
        2005
        Round 1: Paired to Blue/bronze-fallow cock. Laid only one egg, it was fertile but didn't hatch.
        2006
        Round 1: Paired to a Blue. Laid 3 eggs, 2 fertile and both hatched. Both chicks were Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*. (#312 features again later)
        2007
        Round 1: Paired to the same Blue. Laid 4 eggs. 3 fertile, 3 hatched but only 2 survived. Both survivors were Green/blue/*bronze-fallow*.
        2008
        Round 1: Paired to a Blue Cleartailed. Laid 3 eggs, 3 fertile but none hatched.
        Round 2: Paired to same Blue Cleartailed. Laid 4 eggs. 3 hatched, 2 survived. Both survivors were Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow* (#356 features again later)
        2009
        Round 1: Paired to a Blue (same one as 2006). Laid 3 eggs then died. Eggbound. 3 eggs fertile but none hatched.

        Hen #312 Green/blue/*bronze-fallow* (daughter to Hen #1039 from 2006)
        2008
        Round 1: Paired to Grey cock (same killer cock from 2006). Laid 4 eggs, 3 fertile. Sold 2 for handrearing from the nest but kept back a Grey/?*bronze-fallow* (#377 features again later) chick that had lighter toenails than a normal Grey.

        Cock #377 Grey/?*bronze-fallow* (son of #312) paired to hen #356 Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow* (daughter of #1039) (so this cock is actually paired to his aunt)
        2010
        Round 1: Laid 5 eggs, 2 fertile but only one hatched. (#F014)

        Haven't got a picture of this bird but it looks exactly like the original two hens that I purchased as Bronze-fallows. Same green body, yellow head and red eyes but it was sexed as a cock??? He's a year old now.

        You can't breed a visual Pallid cock if the hen is not visual to Pallid. Remember the hen is a Green/blue/cleartailed/*bronze-fallow*. This rules out Pallid.

        I sent a picture of one of the original hens to Sjack Bastiaan and he also think it's not Bronze-fallow. Doesn't know what it is either but doesn't think it's Bronze-fallow.

        It has to be a recessive mutation of some sort. Neither parents are visual so it can't be Dominant or Co-Dominant. Can't be Sex-linked Recessive because the hen has to be visual for SL mutation before you can breed a visual SL cock.

        What I have noticed; The Green birds that are split to *bronze-fallow* are a different green colour than a normal green. More of a luminescent green. The Grey/*bronze-fallow* also has lighter toenails than a normal Grey bird. His colour is the same as a normal grey bird though. They are difficult breeders. They are aggressive. The sister of #356 were given to a friend. He paired her to a Grey Cleartailed cock and she almost killed the cock as well. He was luckily removed before he was actually killed but it was a close call.

        There is also the possibility that the bird was incorrectly sexed so have to keep this in mind. If this is the case then it's in all probability a Pallid.

        Wynand
        
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
        				- Herm Albright

        On 01/09/2011 01:05 AM, Mick Blake [Exotic Parrots & Karmic Aviaries] wrote:
         
        Hi Wynand,
         
        pic 70 look like a palliad, and pic 40 like like a hen we bred back in the early 90's out of a grey-green cock, She look like a yellow headed cinnamon but she would produce palliad went mate to palliad males and she would produce cinnamon when mated to cinnamon males and we still belive she was a cross over bird as a Palliad Cinnamon, I only got rid of her last year. I gave her to old chap up the road.
         
        Pic is of her, and she had a red eye.
         
        Mick
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:28 AM
        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Ringnecks: Help with identifying this birds
         
         

        Attached is a couple of pictures of two birds that were bought, over the phone, as Bronze-fallow/?blue. (Mistake buying a bird unseen but this is how we learn: schoolfees!) Don't know which photo is which hen :-[

        Unfortunately both hens died a couple of years after I purchased them. Both hens looked the same. Could have been sisters.

        The thread is actually about the one with the Blue CLeartailed cock. In your opinion; What were these birds?

        Will provide more information later.

        -- 
        Wynand
        
        A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it 
        will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
        				- Herm Albright
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