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IRN pieds

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  • mada_s@ymail.com
    Hi all, hi Deon, i came across your website and have the following article: http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm there you wrote: ... Consider the
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 3, 2011
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      Hi all, hi Deon,

      i came across your website and have the following article:

      http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

      there you wrote:

      "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

      When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."

      If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)

      So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
      What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).

      Thx in advance.

      S. Adam
    • Stefan Adam
      Sorry i think i made a mistake and it must be: Or could we expect four different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 4, 2011
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        Sorry i think i made a mistake and it must be:

          Or could we expect four different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand,the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird) and the last one looks like both parents.

        Greetings.

        S.Adam


        Von: "mada_s@..." <mada_s@...>
        An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 3. August 2011, 13:50:44 Uhr
        Betreff: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds

         

        Hi all, hi Deon,

        i came across your website and have the following article:

        http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

        there you wrote:

        "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

        When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."

        If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)

        So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
        What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).

        Thx in advance.

        S. Adam

      • Recio Joaquin
         Hi Madas, Deon and everybody,   Some ideas:   The accompanying minor pied genes (or modifier genes) are suppossed to act and inherit as a package as
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 4, 2011
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           Hi Madas, Deon and everybody,
           
          Some ideas:
           
          The accompanying minor pied genes (or modifier genes) are suppossed to act and inherit as a "package" as Deon said. To be true their loci must be closely together (of course in the same cromossome), and the crossing over rate inside this "group" must be very low. In this case the suppossed accompanying minor pied genes would inherit like a single gene and we would not be able to make the difference between a single gene and a package of closely linked genes. In this situation Madas is right when he asks for the phenotype of F2 when pairing Salan and Hillerman recessive pieds. We should expect:
          F0: Salan type: MG mg1         Hillerman type: MG mg2
          F1 : MG / mg1 mg2
          F2: as Madas says there are 3 phenotype possibilities:
              Salan type: MG mg1 (genotypes: MG mg1 and MG mg1 / mg2)
              Hillerman type: MG mg2 (genotypes: MG mg2 and MG mg2 / mg1)
              Combined Salan and Hillerman major and minor genes: MG mg1 mg2 ..... as Madas said this bird is suppossed to be a very highly pied bird (similar to piedness seen when expressing in the same bird recessive and dominant pied mutations).
           
          * MG : major rec pied gene (the same in Salan and Hillerman pieds)
          mg1: minor packed rec pied genes in Salan type
          mg2: minor packed rec pied genes in Hillerman type
           
          If the existence of packed pied minor genes is correct, then we will find that when mating a wild bird split for rec pied to a rec pied mutated bird the offspring would also display 3 different phenotypes:
          F0 : recessive pied (MG mg) x wild type
          F1 : wild type / MG and mg
          F0 X F1 will produce 3 phenotypes:
              a) Recessive pied: MG mg
              b) Wild type:  with 2 split genotypes (wild type/MG mg; and homozygous minor pied genes genotype : mg/MG). The homozygous minor rec type genes would not be expressed since they need the expression of the major rec pied genes (MG) ot become apparent.
              c) "Incomplete" recessive pied: the accompanying minor rec pied are not expressed since the bird is only split for them (MG/mg). This bird is suppossed to display a lower piedness (exactly the same piedness expressed by F1 when pairing Salan to Hillerman pieds).
           
          Has anybody observed those phenotypes when crossing Salan and Hillerman pieds and when outcrossing recessive pieds? If this is not the case we should consider that the minor accompanying rec pied genes, if they exist, are not packed together. In this case their inheritance would be free (they are not linked) and when making the two pairings I have just developped, we will obtain a whole array of intermediate phenotypes, their number depending on the number of the suppossed minor accompanying rec pied genes, their possible combinations and interactions.
           
          Regards
           
          Recio
           

          From: "mada_s@..." <mada_s@...>
          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 3, 2011 1:50 PM
          Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds

           
          Hi all, hi Deon,

          i came across your website and have the following article:

          http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

          there you wrote:

          "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

          When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."

          If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)

          So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
          What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).

          Thx in advance.

          S. Adam



        • Recio Joaquin
          Yes, I also overlloked the fourth phenotype looking like the parents (F1 from Salan X Hillerman rec pieds) which has 4 possible genotypes: MG MG/mg1 MG/mg2
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 4, 2011
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            Yes, I also overlloked the fourth phenotype looking like the parents (F1 from Salan X Hillerman rec pieds) which has 4 possible genotypes:
            MG
            MG/mg1
            MG/mg2
            MG/mg1 mg2
             
            Recio

            From: Stefan Adam <mada_s@...>
            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:21 AM
            Subject: AW: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds

             
            Sorry i think i made a mistake and it must be:

              Or could we expect four different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand,the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird) and the last one looks like both parents.

            Greetings.

            S.Adam

            Von: "mada_s@..." <mada_s@...>
            An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 3. August 2011, 13:50:44 Uhr
            Betreff: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds

             
            Hi all, hi Deon,

            i came across your website and have the following article:

            http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

            there you wrote:

            "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

            When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."

            If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)

            So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
            What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).

            Thx in advance.

            S. Adam



          • Deon Smith
            Stefan said: If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 4, 2011
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              Stefan said: 
               
              If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)
               
              Of course you are correct that the major recessive pied gene that is responsible for the essence of the pied mutation will be homozygotic in the offspring. If it so that each type has accumulated its own different set of expression modifiers, be it recessive minor pied genes or other modifier genes, through an isolated gene pool in the early days of the mutations’ establishment, the hybrids will be homozygotic for the recessive major pied gene and heterozygotic for the rest (modifiers from each parent. Nothing is proven, this idea is only a thought to try to explain the similarities and differences between the two strains. 

              So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
               
              I believe the Salan types in S.A. are resticted to only a few breeders trying to keep them pure. I don’t know if someone took this experiment further and believe the hybrids ended up in the quagmire of excellent pieds, medium pieds and poor pieds.

              What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).
               
              We must consider the possibility of Linked and unlinked modifiers that became established in the isolated original establishing stock. I refer you to the so-called Yellowwing Cleartail, well established in one breeder’s breeding facility. This is none other than  linkage between the cleartail locus and a minor pied locus. If you want, I have a good photograph of a Blue Whitewing Cleartail. Back to the issue, what will each baby inherits besides the recessive major pied gene? Will it be heterozygotic for whatever is present in the genetic makeup of the parents, linked or unlinked, or (by chance) find its match?
               
              Any idea of the type in the attached photos? Pardon the poor quality photo, its from my cellphone.
               
              Deon
               
              View album
              This album has 2 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 11/2/2011.
              View album    

               
              Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 1:50 PM
              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds
               
               

              Hi all, hi Deon,

              i came across your website and have the following article:

              http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

              there you wrote:

              "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

              When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."


              Thx in advance.

              S. Adam

            • Victor Kieler
              Hi  Deon    Is it poss for you to post a pic of a whitewing cleartail .   As you said its a combination of pieds and tail birds . Victor  On 4/08/2011
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 4, 2011
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                Hi  Deon    Is it poss for you to post a pic of a whitewing cleartail .   As you said its a combination of pieds and tail birds .

                Victor 

                On 4/08/2011 11:00 PM, Deon Smith wrote:
                Stefan said: 
                 
                If both parents are homozygous for this identical major recessive pied gen then the hole offspring must carry this gen homozygous too. So you did not mention this point. You only said they carry "some minor pied gens as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents". this couldn't be correct. :)
                 
                Of course you are correct that the major recessive pied gene that is responsible for the essence of the pied mutation will be homozygotic in the offspring. If it so that each type has accumulated its own different set of expression modifiers, be it recessive minor pied genes or other modifier genes, through an isolated gene pool in the early days of the mutations’ establishment, the hybrids will be homozygotic for the recessive major pied gene and heterozygotic for the rest (modifiers from each parent. Nothing is proven, this idea is only a thought to try to explain the similarities and differences between the two strains. 

                So do you know if these F1 crossings were crossed among themselves?
                 
                I believe the Salan types in S.A. are resticted to only a few breeders trying to keep them pure. I don’t know if someone took this experiment further and believe the hybrids ended up in the quagmire of excellent pieds, medium pieds and poor pieds.

                What do you think could the offspring look like??? Does the hole offspring looks identical (a very rich pied bird, nearly yellow rsp. white bird)? Or could we expect three different kinds of pied offspring because the pied-enhancing modifiers are inherited as unit. first type looks and acts like the hillermann strand, second looks and acts like the salan strand and the third one is a rich pied bird (nearly yellow rsp. white bird).
                 
                We must consider the possibility of Linked and unlinked modifiers that became established in the isolated original establishing stock. I refer you to the so-called Yellowwing Cleartail, well established in one breeder’s breeding facility. This is none other than  linkage between the cleartail locus and a minor pied locus. If you want, I have a good photograph of a Blue Whitewing Cleartail. Back to the issue, what will each baby inherits besides the recessive major pied gene? Will it be heterozygotic for whatever is present in the genetic makeup of the parents, linked or unlinked, or (by chance) find its match?
                 
                Any idea of the type in the attached photos? Pardon the poor quality photo, its from my cellphone.
                 
                Deon
                 
                View album
                This album has 2 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 11/2/2011.
                View album    

                 
                Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 1:50 PM
                Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] IRN pieds
                 
                 

                Hi all, hi Deon,

                i came across your website and have the following article:

                http://www.sunbird1.co.za/new_page_8.htm

                there you wrote:

                "... Consider the possibility that the Salan Pieds and Hillerman type each have the same recessive major pied gene, but that each type has its own set of pied-enhancing genes, different in the two groups. We can now comprehend the possibility that in this mutation specifically, a package of a major recessive pied gene combined with multiple minor genes could have become established and we can speak of an inheritable unit or package of pied genes. This may be the major difference between Hillerman and Salan types; different sets of accompanying minor pied genes and modifier genes, but coupled with the identical major recessive pied gene.

                When we look at the Hillerman – Salan F1 crossings and try to explain its unimpressive, rather drab appearance, consider this: Did the hybrids inherit some minor pied genes as well as multiple unmatched recessive pied-enhancing genes from both its parents so that these genes from both sides are not expressed, as they are recessive and have no homologous match from the other parent and thus remain hidden, so that we now have a bird split for possibly multiple pied-enhancing genes? ..."


                Thx in advance.

                S. Adam

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