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About cinnamon

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  • jrecio99
    Hi everybody; I have some questions, Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also
    Message 1 of 24 , May 1, 2011

      Hi everybody;

      I have some questions,

      Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

      Thanks

      Recio

    • XP 2600
      Hello all, I think eyes still have the black eumelanin, maybe they are not black maybe they are very dark brown? Imam ... -- Imam MCSA MCSE
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2, 2011
        Hello all,
        I think eyes still have the black eumelanin, maybe they are not black maybe they are very dark brown?

        Imam

        On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 9:24 PM, jrecio99 <jrecio99@...> wrote:
         

        Hi everybody;

        I have some questions,

        Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

        Thanks

        Recio




        --
        Imam
        MCSA MCSE
      • Terry Martin
        Hello Recio A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2, 2011
          Hello Recio
           
                  A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
           
                  Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
           
                  Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
           
                  Terry
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: jrecio99
          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
          Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

          Hi everybody;

          I have some questions,

          Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

          Thanks

          Recio

        • Recio Joaquin
          Terry Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird? Some considerations from an evolutionary point of
          Message 4 of 24 , May 3, 2011
            Terry
             
            Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
             
            Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
             
            1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
             
            2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
            Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
             
            For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
             
            Best regards
             
            Recio
             
             
             

            From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

             

            Hello Recio
             
                    A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
             
                    Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
             
                    Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
             
                    Terry
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: jrecio99
            Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
            Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

            Hi everybody;

            I have some questions,

            Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

            Thanks

            Recio

          • Recio Joaquin
            Hi; Can anybody post a pic of a blue-pallid IRN and a blue-pallid-cinnamon IRN? Thanks Recio ________________________________ From: jrecio99
            Message 5 of 24 , May 3, 2011
              Hi;
               
              Can anybody post a pic of a blue-pallid IRN and a blue-pallid-cinnamon IRN?
               
              Thanks
               
              Recio


              From: jrecio99 <jrecio99@...>
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 9:24:03 PM
              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

               

              Hi everybody;

              I have some questions,

              Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

              Thanks

              Recio

            • Peter Wouters
              Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure
              Message 6 of 24 , May 3, 2011
                Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                 
                Peter
                 
                Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                 
                 

                Hello Recio
                 
                        A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                 
                        Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                 
                        Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                 
                        Terry
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: jrecio99
                Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                 

                Hi everybody;

                I have some questions,

                Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                Thanks

                Recio

              • Recio Joaquin
                Peter, I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays
                Message 7 of 24 , May 3, 2011
                  Peter,
                   
                  I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                   
                  Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                   
                  Recio


                  From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                   

                  Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                   
                  Peter
                   
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                   
                   

                  Hello Recio
                   
                          A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                   
                          Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                   
                          Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                   
                          Terry
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: jrecio99
                  Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                  Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                   

                  Hi everybody;

                  I have some questions,

                  Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                  Thanks

                  Recio

                • Andre van der Voorn
                  Hello Recio, These white primary flights is also seen in *redbeaked* blue personatus. This is also a type of a halfsider. André van der Voorn From: Recio
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 3, 2011
                    Hello Recio,
                     
                    These white primary flights is also seen in *redbeaked* blue personatus. This is also a type of a halfsider.
                     
                    André van der Voorn

                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                     

                    Peter,
                     
                    I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                     
                    Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                     
                    Recio


                    From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                     

                    Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                     
                    Peter
                     
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                     
                     

                    Hello Recio
                     
                            A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                     
                            Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                     
                            Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                     
                            Terry
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: jrecio99
                    Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                    Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                     

                    Hi everybody;

                    I have some questions,

                    Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                    Thanks

                    Recio



                    Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
                    Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
                    Versie: 9.0.894 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/3613 - datum van uitgifte: 05/03/11 16:14:00
                  • Stefan Adam
                    Hi Recio, unfortunately i only have some pictures of pallid blue female and cinnamon blue male and female, but not of a pallid cinnamon bird. greetings.
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 4, 2011
                      Hi Recio,

                      unfortunately i only have some pictures of pallid blue female and cinnamon blue male and female, but not of a pallid cinnamon bird.

                      greetings.


                      Von: Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...>
                      An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                      Gesendet: Dienstag, den 3. Mai 2011, 16:37:10 Uhr
                      Betreff: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                       
                      Hi;
                       
                      Can anybody post a pic of a blue-pallid IRN and a blue-pallid-cinnamon IRN?
                       
                      Thanks
                       
                      Recio


                      From: jrecio99 <jrecio99@...>
                      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 9:24:03 PM
                      Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                       

                      Hi everybody;

                      I have some questions,

                      Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                      Thanks

                      Recio

                    • Recio Joaquin
                      Hi André, Mosaicism is a condition in which cells within the same animal have a different genetic makeup. This condition can affect any type of cell. We can
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 4, 2011
                        Hi André,
                         
                        Mosaicism is a condition in which cells within the same animal have a different genetic makeup. This condition can affect any type of cell. We can consider a halfsider as an extreme case of mosaicism in which the different cells are "ordered" following the middle body line.
                        If the white primary feathers of the wings are present in both sides it would not be related to a halfsider disorder but to a mutation or metabolic disorder affecting the whole bird. This kakariki show at least two different disorders in feather colour: cinnamon appearence in the belly region and lost of any melanin (black or brown) in primary flying feathers. We could hypothesize, just hypothesize, that if there were an expression of black and brown melanin in one bird with the distribution indicated in my previous post, we could say that this bird has lost its black melanin (appearence of white flying feathers) and kept its brown melanin, which becomes fully apparent in the belly region after removal of the black melanin, looking like a cinnamon bird. The belly region would own a mix of brown and black melanin, and the brown melanin would become apparent only after removal of the black one.
                        The appearence of the bird is not like a real cinnamon bird because in the case of a cinnamon bird, the feathers expressing black melanin become cinnamon as a result of the stop in melanin synthesis at the point of transformation of brown melanin in black melanin, and thus the whole bird looks cinnamon. This would not be the same that blocking all melanin synthesis (brown and black) in areas expressing black melanin, but without acting in areas expressing brown melanin. Just an hypothesis, of course.
                         
                        Recio



                        From: Andre van der Voorn <voorn73@...>
                        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 5:55:52 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                         

                        Hello Recio,
                         
                        These white primary flights is also seen in *redbeaked* blue personatus. This is also a type of a halfsider.
                         
                        André van der Voorn

                        Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                         

                        Peter,
                         
                        I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                         
                        Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                         
                        Recio


                        From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                         

                        Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                         
                        Peter
                         
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                         
                         

                        Hello Recio
                         
                                A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                         
                                Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                         
                                Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                         
                                Terry
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: jrecio99
                        Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                         

                        Hi everybody;

                        I have some questions,

                        Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                        Thanks

                        Recio



                        Geen virus gevonden in het binnenkomende-bericht.
                        Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com
                        Versie: 9.0.894 / Virusdatabase: 271.1.1/3613 - datum van uitgifte: 05/03/11 16:14:00
                      • Recio Joaquin
                        Thank  you Madas, In fact I am looking for the pic of a male blue-pallid-cinnamon to compare to a blue-pallid. There is in the web just a pic of a
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 4, 2011
                          Thank  you Madas,
                           
                          In fact I am looking for the pic of a male blue-pallid-cinnamon to compare to a blue-pallid. There is in the web just a pic of a blue-pallid-cinnamon but it is a female (Jay's pic).
                           
                          Recio


                          From: Stefan Adam <mada_s@...>
                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 9:42:01 AM
                          Subject: AW: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                           

                          Hi Recio,

                          unfortunately i only have some pictures of pallid blue female and cinnamon blue male and female, but not of a pallid cinnamon bird.

                          greetings.


                          Von: Recio Joaquin <jrecio99@...>
                          An: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                          Gesendet: Dienstag, den 3. Mai 2011, 16:37:10 Uhr
                          Betreff: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                           
                          Hi;
                           
                          Can anybody post a pic of a blue-pallid IRN and a blue-pallid-cinnamon IRN?
                           
                          Thanks
                           
                          Recio


                          From: jrecio99 <jrecio99@...>
                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 9:24:03 PM
                          Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                           

                          Hi everybody;

                          I have some questions,

                          Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                          Thanks

                          Recio

                        • Peter Wouters
                          Recio, Included some extra pics of the bird. You will notice that those flight feathers are rather brownish instead of white. The blue feathers are also
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 4, 2011
                            Recio,
                             
                            Included some extra pics of the bird. You will notice that those flight feathers are rather brownish instead of white. The blue feathers are also lighter than in the wildtype which is typical for the cinnamon mutation. Even the legs/feet are a mixture of wildtype and cinnamon. I’ve also included a pic of another bird made by an Australian breeder. Here the cinnamon predominates so I don’t think the pattern is genetically fixed. That is why I believe it is a kind of mosaicism.
                             
                            Peter
                             
                             
                             
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                             
                             

                            Peter,
                             
                            I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                             
                            Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                             
                            Recio
                             

                            From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                             

                            Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                             
                            Peter
                             
                            Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                             
                             

                            Hello Recio
                             
                                    A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                             
                                    Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                             
                                    Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                             
                                    Terry
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: jrecio99
                            Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                            Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                             

                            Hi everybody;

                            I have some questions,

                            Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                            Thanks

                            Recio

                          • Terry Martin
                            Recio The paler flights on this Kakariki could easily be simple fading that is a when reported feature of brown melanin. All melanin can fade to some degree
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 5, 2011
                              
                              Recio
                               
                                      The paler flights on this Kakariki could easily be simple fading that is a when reported feature of brown melanin. All melanin can fade to some degree from UV light, but the brown produced in Cinnamon birds is when known in avicultural exhibition circles as particularly prone. Exhibitors of these birds in many species keep their birds indoors or else they cannot win in the shows. The flights will often be that pale that they can appear almost white. I think the angle of the photos and the lighting conditions are creating the impression the flights are white.
                               
                                      Terry
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 7:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                              Hi André,
                               
                              Mosaicism is a condition in which cells within the same animal have a different genetic makeup. This condition can affect any type of cell. We can consider a halfsider as an extreme case of mosaicism in which the different cells are "ordered" following the middle body line.
                              If the white primary feathers of the wings are present in both sides it would not be related to a halfsider disorder but to a mutation or metabolic disorder affecting the whole bird. This kakariki show at least two different disorders in feather colour: cinnamon appearence in the belly region and lost of any melanin (black or brown) in primary flying feathers. We could hypothesize, just hypothesize, that if there were an expression of black and brown melanin in one bird with the distribution indicated in my previous post, we could say that this bird has lost its black melanin (appearence of white flying feathers) and kept its brown melanin, which becomes fully apparent in the belly region after removal of the black melanin, looking like a cinnamon bird. The belly region would own a mix of brown and black melanin, and the brown melanin would become apparent only after removal of the black one.
                              The appearence of the bird is not like a real cinnamon bird because in the case of a cinnamon bird, the feathers expressing black melanin become cinnamon as a result of the stop in melanin synthesis at the point of transformation of brown melanin in black melanin, and thus the whole bird looks cinnamon. This would not be the same that blocking all melanin synthesis (brown and black) in areas expressing black melanin, but without acting in areas expressing brown melanin. Just an hypothesis, of course.
                               
                              Recio



                              From: Andre van der Voorn <voorn73@...>
                              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 5:55:52 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                               

                              Hello Recio,
                               
                              These white primary flights is also seen in *redbeaked* blue personatus. This is also a type of a halfsider.
                               
                              André van der Voorn

                              Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                               

                              Peter,
                               
                              I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                               
                              Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                               
                              Recio


                              From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                               

                              Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                               
                              Peter
                               
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                               
                               

                              Hello Recio
                               
                                      A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                               
                                      Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                               
                                      Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                               
                                      Terry
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: jrecio99
                              Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                              Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                               

                              Hi everybody;

                              I have some questions,

                              Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                              Thanks

                              Recio



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                            • Terry Martin
                              Recio As I said in a previous message, I do not know of any animal that naturally produces eumelanin that isn t black. That statement is in contrast to many
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 5, 2011
                                
                                Recio
                                 
                                        As I said in a previous message, I do not know of any animal that naturally produces eumelanin that isn't black. That statement is in contrast to many animals and birds that appear shades of brown. But inevitably they have black melanin plus other features of their colouration that makes them appear brown to our eyes, rather than true brown eumelanin that we see when the TRP1 locus is disfunctional.
                                 
                                        Terry
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:57 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                Terry
                                 
                                Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                 
                                Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                 
                                1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                 
                                2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                 
                                For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                 
                                Best regards
                                 
                                Recio
                                 
                                 
                                 

                                From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                 

                                Hello Recio
                                 
                                        A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                 
                                        Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                 
                                        Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                 
                                        Terry
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: jrecio99
                                Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                Hi everybody;

                                I have some questions,

                                Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                Thanks

                                Recio

                              • Recio Joaquin
                                Hi, I do not know why some of the posts do not pass . This was my answer Peter: Hi Peter,   It does not really look the same bird than in the first pic. Now
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 5, 2011
                                  Hi,
                                   
                                  I do not know why some of the posts do not "pass". This was my answer Peter:

                                  Hi Peter,
                                   
                                  It does not really look the same bird than in the first pic. Now I would bet it is a pied cinnamon: brownish primary flying feathers, lighter blue feathers, cinnamon belly ... means a general cinnamon bird; and the pattern we can see on legs skin and different nails colours is quite typical of pied birds (sometimes the pied pattern affects just one nail in a whole bird). So my bet: pied cinnamon.
                                   
                                  But I repeat: I know nothing about this species of parrot. More knowledgeable people should answer you.
                                   
                                  Regards
                                   
                                  Recio


                                  From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 6:48:38 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                   

                                  Recio,
                                   
                                  Included some extra pics of the bird. You will notice that those flight feathers are rather brownish instead of white. The blue feathers are also lighter than in the wildtype which is typical for the cinnamon mutation. Even the legs/feet are a mixture of wildtype and cinnamon. I’ve also included a pic of another bird made by an Australian breeder. Here the cinnamon predominates so I don’t think the pattern is genetically fixed. That is why I believe it is a kind of mosaicism.
                                   
                                  Peter
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                   
                                   

                                  Peter,
                                   
                                  I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                                   
                                  Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                                   
                                  Recio
                                   

                                  From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                   

                                  Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                                   
                                  Peter
                                   
                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                   
                                   

                                  Hello Recio
                                   
                                          A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                   
                                          Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                   
                                          Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                   
                                          Terry
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: jrecio99
                                  Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                  Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                   

                                  Hi everybody;

                                  I have some questions,

                                  Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                  Thanks

                                  Recio

                                • Peter Wouters
                                  Hi Recio I’ve bred many cinnamon pieds and know how they look like. True cinnamons have greyish legs/toes whereas 100% pieds are pink. The legs of the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 6, 2011
                                     
                                    Hi Recio
                                     
                                    I’ve bred many cinnamon pieds and know how they look like. True cinnamons have greyish legs/toes whereas 100% pieds are pink. The legs of the mosaicism bird have clear black melanin patches. Included a true cinnamon. Like Terry mentioned, the flight feathers appear white due to camera exposure or different angle of light. Some feathers on the back appear yellow due to the bleeching effect of the sun.
                                     
                                    Peter
                                     
                                     
                                    Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 8:45 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                     
                                     

                                    Hi,
                                     
                                    I do not know why some of the posts do not "pass". This was my answer Peter:
                                     
                                    Hi Peter,
                                     
                                    It does not really look the same bird than in the first pic. Now I would bet it is a pied cinnamon: brownish primary flying feathers, lighter blue feathers, cinnamon belly ... means a general cinnamon bird; and the pattern we can see on legs skin and different nails colours is quite typical of pied birds (sometimes the pied pattern affects just one nail in a whole bird). So my bet: pied cinnamon.
                                     
                                    But I repeat: I know nothing about this species of parrot. More knowledgeable people should answer you.
                                     
                                    Regards
                                     
                                    Recio
                                     

                                    From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 6:48:38 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                     

                                    Recio,
                                     
                                    Included some extra pics of the bird. You will notice that those flight feathers are rather brownish instead of white. The blue feathers are also lighter than in the wildtype which is typical for the cinnamon mutation. Even the legs/feet are a mixture of wildtype and cinnamon. I’ve also included a pic of another bird made by an Australian breeder. Here the cinnamon predominates so I don’t think the pattern is genetically fixed. That is why I believe it is a kind of mosaicism.
                                     
                                    Peter
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:26 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                     
                                     

                                    Peter,
                                     
                                    I know nothing about kakarikis but when looking at wild birds I notice that they show melanin in primary flying feathers. The bird you show displays white primary feathers, like in lutinos. Is there any other mutation than cinnamon in a mosaic pattern in that bird? Otherwise I would expect brownish primary flying feathers.
                                     
                                    Something else: the distribution of cinnamon patches seems not to be random, but mostly in the belly region, as I sugested in the previous post. Is it normal in the case of mosaicism?
                                     
                                    Recio
                                     

                                    From: Peter Wouters <wouterscalant@...>
                                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:51:19 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                     

                                    Included a pic of a partial Cinnamon Kakariki. I consider this bird as a kind of ‘mosaicism’. I never succeeded to breed with this bird. I’m not sure whether it was a male or female. It appeared  somewhere in between. It died from an infection. I don’t think that this kind of ‘mosaicism’ or whatever it may be is not unique because I have seen pictures of other birds of the same kind.
                                     
                                    Peter
                                     
                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 2:57 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                     
                                     

                                    Hello Recio
                                     
                                            A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                     
                                            Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                     
                                            Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                     
                                            Terry
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: jrecio99
                                    Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                    Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon
                                     

                                    Hi everybody;

                                    I have some questions,

                                    Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                    Thanks

                                    Recio

                                  • Inte Onsman
                                    Recio said: For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let s
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 9, 2011
                                      
                                      Recio said:
                                       
                                      For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                       
                                      During 25 years of research and studying hundreds of cross-sections I have never encountered black and brown eumelanosomes together in one bird.
                                       
                                       
                                      Inte Onsman
                                      MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:57 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                       

                                      Terry
                                       
                                      Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                       
                                      Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                       
                                      1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                       
                                      2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                      Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                      Best regards
                                       
                                      Recio
                                       
                                       
                                       

                                      From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                      To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                       

                                      Hello Recio
                                       
                                              A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                       
                                              Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                       
                                              Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                       
                                              Terry
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: jrecio99
                                      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                      Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                      Hi everybody;

                                      I have some questions,

                                      Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                      Thanks

                                      Recio

                                    • Recio Joaquin
                                      Inte, Did you ever check for melanin in the non exposed feathers as those of the underwings, belly ot light undertail feathers? Those are usually feathers
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 9, 2011
                                        Inte,
                                         
                                        Did you ever check for melanin in the non exposed feathers as those of the underwings, belly ot light undertail feathers? Those are usually feathers with less melanin than exposed feathers (wing coverts, primary and secondary wing and tail feathers, head feathers, ...) and mutations acting on melanin seem to have a lower activity onto these non-exposed feathers. I wonder if this lesser activity is just because there is less black eumelanin to decrease or because there is another type of melanin.
                                         
                                        Thanks
                                         
                                        Recio


                                        From: Inte Onsman <onsman1@...>
                                        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 5:59:35 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                         

                                        

                                        Recio said:
                                         
                                        For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                         
                                        During 25 years of research and studying hundreds of cross-sections I have never encountered black and brown eumelanosomes together in one bird.
                                         
                                         
                                        Inte Onsman
                                        MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:57 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                         

                                        Terry
                                         
                                        Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                         
                                        Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                         
                                        1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                         
                                        2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                        Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                        Best regards
                                         
                                        Recio
                                         
                                         
                                         

                                        From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                         

                                        Hello Recio
                                         
                                                A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                         
                                                Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                         
                                                Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                         
                                                Terry
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: jrecio99
                                        Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                        Hi everybody;

                                        I have some questions,

                                        Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                        Thanks

                                        Recio

                                      • Rodrigo Rodrigues
                                        So, what do you think about it ?? This cockatiel has black and brown feather. Rodrigo Rodrigues MSN : rodrigojrsilva@hotmail.com
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 9, 2011
                                          So, what do you think about it ??

                                          This cockatiel has black and brown feather.



                                           
                                          Rodrigo Rodrigues
                                           
                                           



                                          De: Inte Onsman <onsman1@...>
                                          Para: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                          Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 9 de Maio de 2011 12:59:35
                                          Assunto: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                           

                                          

                                          Recio said:
                                           
                                          For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                           
                                          During 25 years of research and studying hundreds of cross-sections I have never encountered black and brown eumelanosomes together in one bird.
                                           
                                           
                                          Inte Onsman
                                          MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:57 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                           

                                          Terry
                                           
                                          Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                           
                                          Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                           
                                          1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                           
                                          2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                          Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                          Best regards
                                           
                                          Recio
                                           
                                           
                                           

                                          From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                           

                                          Hello Recio
                                           
                                                  A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                           
                                                  Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                           
                                                  Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                           
                                                  Terry
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: jrecio99
                                          Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                          Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                          Hi everybody;

                                          I have some questions,

                                          Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                          Thanks

                                          Recio

                                        • Hector Raigosa
                                          It appears this is a separate bird from from first inquiry in photo 6 of slide. Birds back different. I ve bred fallows for years, however last couple of years
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 9, 2011
                                            It appears this is a separate bird from from first inquiry in photo 6 of slide. Birds back different. I've bred fallows for years, however last couple of years one particular pair has produced Red eye cinnamon pearls and 1 blue red eye that I could not save, very weak I assume some where? Here's  three photos... I had sent these out last time, but got lost as every one was hammered into one sole conversation I wish not mention for fear of starting it all over again! Breeding pair is 11 or 12 year old; Blue whiteface male/Albino with whiteface cinnamon pearl hen.
                                             
                                            Hector


                                            From: Rodrigo Rodrigues <rodrigojrsilva@...>
                                            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 12:41:02 PM
                                            Subject: Res: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                             

                                            So, what do you think about it ??

                                            This cockatiel has black and brown feather.



                                             
                                            Rodrigo Rodrigues
                                             
                                             



                                            De: Inte Onsman <onsman1@...>
                                            Para: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                            Enviadas: Segunda-feira, 9 de Maio de 2011 12:59:35
                                            Assunto: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                             

                                            

                                            Recio said:
                                             
                                            For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                             
                                            During 25 years of research and studying hundreds of cross-sections I have never encountered black and brown eumelanosomes together in one bird.
                                             
                                             
                                            Inte Onsman
                                            MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:57 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                             

                                            Terry
                                             
                                            Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                             
                                            Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                             
                                            1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                             
                                            2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                            Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                            Best regards
                                             
                                            Recio
                                             
                                             
                                             

                                            From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                            To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                             

                                            Hello Recio
                                             
                                                    A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                             
                                                    Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                             
                                                    Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                             
                                                    Terry
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: jrecio99
                                            Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                            Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                            Hi everybody;

                                            I have some questions,

                                            Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                            Thanks

                                            Recio

                                          • Terry Martin
                                            A halfsider is a genetic aberration involving genetic damage in certain regions, resulting in the expression of an otherwise hidden gene. The Brown areas are
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 10, 2011
                                              
                                              A halfsider is a genetic aberration involving genetic damage in certain regions, resulting in the expression of an otherwise hidden gene. The Brown areas are genetically Cinnamon, the grey areas are wildtype. In each area the melanin produced reflects what those specific genes allow.
                                               
                                              I have never seen a bird that appeared to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some regions of the plumage to produce brown melanin. The apparently brown species that I have looked closely at their feathers (which is obviously not exhaustive) all had black eumelanin, not brown. It was the juxtaposition of other pigments or other effects from the plumage that made the colours appear brown upon superficial inspection.
                                               
                                              It is the same with mammals. Many wild species of mammals would be described as having brown colouration. Yet pigment wise they are a mix of black eumelanin and reddish phaeomelanin. When they are domesticated, it is common for the TRP1 mutant to appear and then a true Brown colour morph suddenly makes the wildtype look anything but brown.
                                               
                                              Terry
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:41 AM
                                              Subject: Res: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                              So, what do you think about it ??

                                              This cockatiel has black and brown feather.



                                               
                                              Rodrigo Rodrigues
                                               
                                               
                                            • Terry Martin
                                              Hector It is possible to have ocular albinism, where only the eyes are affected and not the rest of the plumage. So the bird could appear any colour depending
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 10, 2011
                                                
                                                Hector
                                                 
                                                        It is possible to have ocular albinism, where only the eyes are affected and not the rest of the plumage. So the bird could appear any colour depending upon what other genes it is carrying. But the independent ocular gene can be inherited separately.
                                                 
                                                        I saw a specimen in Bourke Parrots years ago, of a wildtype with red eyes. But breeders have little interest in this type of colour change and hence it is rarely recorded.
                                                 
                                                        Terry
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:01 PM
                                                Subject: Re: Res: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                It appears this is a separate bird from from first inquiry in photo 6 of slide. Birds back different. I've bred fallows for years, however last couple of years one particular pair has produced Red eye cinnamon pearls and 1 blue red eye that I could not save, very weak I assume some where? Here's  three photos... I had sent these out last time, but got lost as every one was hammered into one sole conversation I wish not mention for fear of starting it all over again! Breeding pair is 11 or 12 year old; Blue whiteface male/Albino with whiteface cinnamon pearl hen.
                                                 
                                                Hector
                                              • Hector Raigosa
                                                Thank you Terry I ve had breeders ready to purchase this little guy; in the past I would have said take him as I did with priors. I m thinking I ll hold on to
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 10, 2011
                                                  Thank you Terry
                                                  I've had breeders ready to purchase this little guy; in the past I would have said take him as I did with priors. I'm thinking I'll hold on to him and select a hen and see what results are obtained. Adult pair will be retired after this year. Any one have any idea's of a hen to pair him with?
                                                   
                                                  All the Best
                                                  Hector


                                                  From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                                  To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tue, May 10, 2011 4:12:57 PM
                                                  Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Red eyes

                                                   

                                                  

                                                  Hector
                                                   
                                                          It is possible to have ocular albinism, where only the eyes are affected and not the rest of the plumage. So the bird could appear any colour depending upon what other genes it is carrying. But the independent ocular gene can be inherited separately.
                                                   
                                                          I saw a specimen in Bourke Parrots years ago, of a wildtype with red eyes. But breeders have little interest in this type of colour change and hence it is rarely recorded.
                                                   
                                                          Terry
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 4:01 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: Res: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                  It appears this is a separate bird from from first inquiry in photo 6 of slide. Birds back different. I've bred fallows for years, however last couple of years one particular pair has produced Red eye cinnamon pearls and 1 blue red eye that I could not save, very weak I assume some where? Here's  three photos... I had sent these out last time, but got lost as every one was hammered into one sole conversation I wish not mention for fear of starting it all over again! Breeding pair is 11 or 12 year old; Blue whiteface male/Albino with whiteface cinnamon pearl hen.
                                                   
                                                  Hector
                                                • Inte Onsman
                                                  Yes I have examened that and I found only less eumelanin not another type. Inte Onsman MUTAVI Research & Advice Group ... From: Recio Joaquin To:
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , May 11, 2011
                                                    
                                                    Yes I have examened that and I found only less eumelanin not another type.
                                                     
                                                    Inte Onsman
                                                    MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:45 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                     

                                                    Inte,
                                                     
                                                    Did you ever check for melanin in the non exposed feathers as those of the underwings, belly ot light undertail feathers? Those are usually feathers with less melanin than exposed feathers (wing coverts, primary and secondary wing and tail feathers, head feathers, ...) and mutations acting on melanin seem to have a lower activity onto these non-exposed feathers. I wonder if this lesser activity is just because there is less black eumelanin to decrease or because there is another type of melanin.
                                                     
                                                    Thanks
                                                     
                                                    Recio


                                                    From: Inte Onsman <onsman1@...>
                                                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 5:59:35 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                     

                                                    

                                                    Recio said:
                                                     
                                                    For Inte: did you ever find in the same bird (I am not saying necessarily in the same feather) black and brown melanin melanosomes? or ... let's say, different melanosomes making you suspect such possibility?
                                                     
                                                    During 25 years of research and studying hundreds of cross-sections I have never encountered black and brown eumelanosomes together in one bird.
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    Inte Onsman
                                                    MUTAVI Research & Advice Group
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 10:57 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                     

                                                    Terry
                                                     
                                                    Do you know any wild bird species displaying both pigments (brown and black melanin) in the same bird?
                                                     
                                                    Some considerations from an evolutionary point of view:
                                                     
                                                    1. Brown melanin should have appeared before black melanin since it is the previous step in black melanin synthesis. Nevertheless black melanin is very old since it is not only present in birds and mammals but in most living animals, allowing protection against deletereous radiations and increasing physical performance of feathers, hair, ... So, probably at the time birds appear the present pigment was black melanin.
                                                     
                                                    2. Evolution works by changing (through mutations) the genetical background which is present at the time it acts. I mean, evolution does not work like an engineer who designs the final product he has in mind in a proper way, but it works by natural selection acting on mutations of the genetic material which is present at that moment. Evolution is not an engineer but a handyman. Keeping this idea in mind I would expect birds (or at least some species of birds) to have evolved and regain the expression of brown melanin (something like a partial back mutation) together with black melanin. Black melanin would keep them protected against radiations, would strengh feather structure, ... and brown melanin would allow them to increase colour possibilities for a better adaptation to environemental changes, reproductive performance, .... So it seems to me quite logical to find in the same bird both types of melanins: black melanin would be present in covering feathers (specially in flyings feathers of wings and tail) and brown melanin would be more likely present in feathers less exposed to radiations (belly feathers, under wings feathers,...). As Inte told me that studies on melanin production can not be performed in every type of feather ... I would keep in mind as quite possible that parrots may produce both types of melanins.
                                                    Far more: I would expect that parrots which do not fly (they do not need very resistent feathers) and which are not exposed to sunny radiations (nocturnal activity), they would mostly display brown melanin (it is also less "expensive" to produce than black melanin). Is there any study on the type of melanin present in the kapako parrot?
                                                    Best regards
                                                     
                                                    Recio
                                                     
                                                     
                                                     

                                                    From: Terry Martin <sbankvet@...>
                                                    To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 2:57:42 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                     

                                                    Hello Recio
                                                     
                                                            A Cinnamon bird cannot produce black. That part if simple to answer. Because it has two mutated TRP1 genes and therefore cannot process the final steps of melanogenesis. There is no other way to do it. But a Normal bird might be able to produce brown either by distorting the way the melanin is seen, for instance by having yellow superimposed over it. Also a Normal/Cinnamon can produce brown melanin patches in the form of a halfsider. The theory here is that the wildtype gene fails to work in the brown regions and the mutated Cinnamon gene cannot work either. It could be possible for a normal wildtype bird, in some species, to selectively suppress the TRP1 gene in some areas, but I am not convinced that it possible.
                                                     
                                                            Note also that a species like the Bourke Parrot is seen and described as brown by most ornithologists. But if you observe it closely it has black melanin. It only appears brown from the distance by the human eye due to heavy suffusion of yellow and pink colours added to the black.
                                                     
                                                            Some species of passerines appear 'brown' due to the presence of phaeomelanin.
                                                     
                                                            Terry
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: jrecio99
                                                    Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:24 AM
                                                    Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] About cinnamon

                                                    Hi everybody;

                                                    I have some questions,

                                                    Can one bird own brown and black melanin? I mean wild parrots own black melanin but I am wondering if they could also display brown melanin. In the opposite a cinnamon bird display brown melanin but ... could he also retain any black melanin? Does cinnamon mutation affect the whole body colour? Has anybody described a different sensitivity of body areas to the effect of  the cinnamon mutation? Are there studies showing both pigments in the same bird, wild or mutated?

                                                    Thanks

                                                    Recio

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