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Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

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  • jlyangzon
    I m not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come from one of the members
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
      I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if
      there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
      from one of the members of the group.

      It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
      all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
      scientifically.

      They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
      just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
      ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.

      Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and lack
      or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.

      Any scientific study on this subject?

      Thanks and God bless.

      James L. Yangzon
    • Administrator
      Well is is a known fact with bugie breeders that Gryegreen is use to improve size. My personal opinion is that since most budgerigarbreeders breed with
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
        Well is is a known "fact" with bugie breeders that Gryegreen is use to improve size.

        My personal opinion is that since most budgerigarbreeders breed with greygreen it is easier to find good greygreen........"strength in numbers" so to speak.

        Personally I have visited breeders that bred with eg. the recessive pied exclusively and their size was exelent.

        Olives (DD green) and Gryegreens do tend to have more buff feathers than others but again selection is king.

        Regards Brian

        -----Original message-----
        From: "jlyangzon" jlyangzon@...
        Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:19:50 +0200
        To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

        I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if
        there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
        from one of the members of the group.

        It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
        all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
        scientifically.

        They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
        just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
        ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.

        Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and lack
        or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.

        Any scientific study on this subject?

        Thanks and God bless.

        James L. Yangzon
      • Terry Martin
        Brian, James In contrast to Brian s comments, it has been my observation that Grey factor is associated with larger body structure in all species where it has
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
          Brian, James

          In contrast to Brian's comments, it has been my observation that
          Grey factor is associated with larger body structure in all species where it
          has occurred so far - Budgerigars, IRNs, Redrumps, Lorikeets. This is merely
          an observation and no scientific study has been undertaken.

          I do not view these specimens as 'buff' and I would add that Dark
          factor does not produce the same effect and leads also to lower feather
          quality compared to wildtype specimens, whereas Grey factor does not alter
          feather quality to any obvious degree.

          In general terms, I suspect small size with many of the recessive
          colour morphs is more related to levels of inbreeding required to establish
          the mutations in the first place. Although some genes play broader roles
          than pigmentation alone, the vast majority established within aviculture are
          pure pigmentation genes.

          Terry

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Administrator" <admin@...>
          To: <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:11 PM
          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Budgie color and its relation to size:
          myth or fact?


          > Well is is a known "fact" with bugie breeders that Gryegreen is use to
          > improve size.
          >
          > My personal opinion is that since most budgerigarbreeders breed with
          > greygreen it is easier to find good greygreen........"strength in numbers"
          > so to speak.
          >
          > Personally I have visited breeders that bred with eg. the recessive pied
          > exclusively and their size was exelent.
          >
          > Olives (DD green) and Gryegreens do tend to have more buff feathers than
          > others but again selection is king.
          >
          > Regards Brian
          >
          > -----Original message-----
          > From: "jlyangzon" jlyangzon@...
          > Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:19:50 +0200
          > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Budgie color and its relation to size: myth
          > or fact?
          >
          > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if
          > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
          > from one of the members of the group.
          >
          > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
          > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
          > scientifically.
          >
          > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
          > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
          > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
          >
          > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and lack
          > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
          >
          > Any scientific study on this subject?
          >
          > Thanks and God bless.
          >
          > James L. Yangzon
        • James Yangzon
          Good day Terry and Brian, Nobody would dispute that proper selection is always the key if you want to fixed a trait to your stock, however, Brian s comments
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2007
            Good day Terry and Brian,
             
            Nobody would dispute that proper selection is always the key if you want to fixed a trait to your stock, however, Brian's comments that 'most budgie breeders breed greygreen, thus it is easier to find good greygreen', seems to be begging the question.
             
            The issue is why do breeders favor the grey factor in the first place?  What do they find in birds with grey factor that made them their favorite?
             
            It is quite a surprise to know that other species with grey factor was also generally observed to have improved their body size.  I wonder what is in the gene that relates itself to size?
             
            Regarding the inbreeding issue with the recessives, what precisely is  the process that leads to reduction of the bird's size?  If I am not mistaken, the thoroughbreds trace their ancestry to only three sires and thirty seven mares and yet the size and the performance were not only retained but were also vastly improved through the years.
             
            thanks and God bless.
             
            James L. Yangzon
             
            Terry Martin <sbankvet@...> wrote:
            Brian, James

            In contrast to Brian's comments, it has been my observation that
            Grey factor is associated with larger body structure in all species where it
            has occurred so far - Budgerigars, IRNs, Redrumps, Lorikeets. This is merely
            an observation and no scientific study has been undertaken.

            I do not view these specimens as 'buff' and I would add that Dark
            factor does not produce the same effect and leads also to lower feather
            quality compared to wildtype specimens, whereas Grey factor does not alter
            feather quality to any obvious degree.

            In general terms, I suspect small size with many of the recessive
            colour morphs is more related to levels of inbreeding required to establish
            the mutations in the first place. Although some genes play broader roles
            than pigmentation alone, the vast majority established within aviculture are
            pure pigmentation genes.

            Terry

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Administrator" <admin@forpus. dk>
            To: <Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com>
            Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:11 PM
            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacin e] Budgie color and its relation to size:
            myth or fact?

            > Well is is a known "fact" with bugie breeders that Gryegreen is use to
            > improve size.
            >
            > My personal opinion is that since most budgerigarbreeders breed with
            > greygreen it is easier to find good greygreen... ....."strength in numbers"
            > so to speak.
            >
            > Personally I have visited breeders that bred with eg. the recessive pied
            > exclusively and their size was exelent.
            >
            > Olives (DD green) and Gryegreens do tend to have more buff feathers than
            > others but again selection is king.
            >
            > Regards Brian
            >
            > -----Original message-----
            > From: "jlyangzon" jlyangzon@yahoo. com
            > Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:19:50 +0200
            > To: Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com
            > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacin e] Budgie color and its relation to size: myth
            > or fact?
            >
            > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if
            > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
            > from one of the members of the group.
            >
            > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
            > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
            > scientifically.
            >
            > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
            > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
            > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
            >
            > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and lack
            > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
            >
            > Any scientific study on this subject?
            >
            > Thanks and God bless.
            >
            > James L. Yangzon



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          • Administrator
            Inbreeding itself, does not alter size, but what I think Terry ment to say was, that to keep breeding visuals autosomal recessive colours people tend to breed
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
              Inbreeding itself, does not alter size, but what I think Terry ment to say was, that to keep breeding visuals autosomal recessive colours people tend to breed two related birds without regards to quality. As long as the colour is new it is impossible to find any unrelated birds carrying the trait.

              With the dominant traits it is easier to pair with any bird suited to improve the quality without "loosing" the mutation.

              I have a friend, who should remain nameless, who breeds wild-coloured Pacific parrotlets. I know for a fact that most of his top birds originated from the same small genepool 6-8 generations back but still he manages to breed better quality every year without bringing in new blood. So yes selection is the key.

              I breed recessive greygreen in Pacific parrotlets and my experience is that it the same amount of work in keeping size up in the birds as in eg. the blues

              However I also breed the Misty Pacific parrotlets (transmutated from the Green-rumped parrotlet) and there I find it easier to keep the size good.

              Brian



              -----Original message-----
              From: James Yangzon jlyangzon@...
              Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:25:07 +0200
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

              Good day Terry and Brian,

              Nobody would dispute that proper selection is always the key if you want to fixed a trait to your stock, however, Brian's comments that 'most budgie breeders breed greygreen, thus it is easier to find good greygreen', seems to be begging the question.

              The issue is why do breeders favor the grey factor in the first place? What do they find in birds with grey factor that made them their favorite?

              It is quite a surprise to know that other species with grey factor was also generally observed to have improved their body size. I wonder what is in the gene that relates itself to size?


              Regarding the inbreeding issue with the recessives, what precisely is the process that leads to reduction of the bird's size? If I am not mistaken, the thoroughbreds trace their ancestry to only three sires and thirty seven mares and yet the size and the performance were not only retained but were also vastly improved through the years.

              thanks and God bless.

              James L. Yangzon

              Terry Martin <sbankvet@...> wrote:
              Brian, James

              In contrast to Brian's comments, it has been my observation that
              Grey factor is associated with larger body structure in all species where it
              has occurred so far - Budgerigars, IRNs, Redrumps, Lorikeets. This is merely
              an observation and no scientific study has been undertaken.

              I do not view these specimens as 'buff' and I would add that Dark
              factor does not produce the same effect and leads also to lower feather
              quality compared to wildtype specimens, whereas Grey factor does not alter
              feather quality to any obvious degree.

              In general terms, I suspect small size with many of the recessive
              colour morphs is more related to levels of inbreeding required to establish
              the mutations in the first place. Although some genes play broader roles
              than pigmentation alone, the vast majority established within aviculture are
              pure pigmentation genes.

              Terry

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Administrator" <admin@...>
              To: <Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:11 PM
              Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Budgie color and its relation to size:
              myth or fact?

              > Well is is a known "fact" with bugie breeders that Gryegreen is use to
              > improve size.
              >
              > My personal opinion is that since most budgerigarbreeders breed with
              > greygreen it is easier to find good greygreen........"strength in numbers"
              > so to speak.
              >
              > Personally I have visited breeders that bred with eg. the recessive pied
              > exclusively and their size was exelent.
              >
              > Olives (DD green) and Gryegreens do tend to have more buff feathers than
              > others but again selection is king.
              >
              > Regards Brian
              >
              > -----Original message-----
              > From: "jlyangzon" jlyangzon@...
              > Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:19:50 +0200
              > To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Genetics-Psittacine] Budgie color and its relation to size: myth
              > or fact?
              >
              > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but if
              > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
              > from one of the members of the group.
              >
              > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
              > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
              > scientifically.
              >
              > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
              > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
              > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
              >
              > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and lack
              > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
              >
              > Any scientific study on this subject?
              >
              > Thanks and God bless.
              >
              > James L. Yangzon






              ---------------------------------
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            • June DiCiocco
              ... That would be because the green-rumped is normally smaller than the Pacific ? What is a Misty ? June
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
                However I also breed the Misty Pacific parrotlets (transmutated from the Green-rumped parrotlet) and there I find it easier to keep the size good.
                
                Brian
                That would be because the green-rumped is normally smaller than the Pacific ?
                What is a 'Misty' ?
                June

              • Jaie
                Hello James and all, I ve also observed that on the average, most of the Wild-type and Dominant trait birds tend to be bigger compared to the recessives. So I
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
                  Hello James and all,
                   
                  I've also observed that on the average, most of the Wild-type and Dominant trait birds tend to be bigger compared to the recessives. So I agree with Terry and the rests that this can be attributed to inbreeding of recessives to propagate the rare mutations.
                   
                  As far as the melanin vs. size theory, I have seen huge Ino and Parino birds and matter of fact, the two largest IRNs in my aviary is a Turquoise PallidIno cock and a Lutino hen, both bred by my buddy Sam Osby, also a member of this group. I also own two Blue IRNs which are smaller than average. So based on what I have seen and the birds that I own and bred, The "melanin=big size" theory will not stick.
                   
                  By Gregor Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment, size and color traits are inherited independent of each other. Not one gene is supposed to control two disparate physical characteristics at the same time. As such, huge size can be bred into any bird regardless of the mutation.
                   
                   
                  James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                  Regarding the inbreeding issue with the recessives, what precisely is  the process that leads to reduction of the bird's size?  If I am not mistaken, the thoroughbreds trace their ancestry to only three sires and thirty seven mares and yet the size and the performance were not only retained but were also vastly improved through the years.
                   
                  Inbreeding does not ONLY produce small size. Inbreeding can also produce large size and other physical traits which can be deemed desirable or undesirable depending on whose criteria or standard you are basing it on. Thoroughbred horses and Great Dane dogs were selectively inbred from the larger recessive mutant progenies because big size on these specimens were deemed as highly-desirable. On the flipside, small size is a desirable trait on dog breeds such as Pomeranians and Yorkies.
                   
                  Inbreeding and selective breeding will also propagate absolute undesirable recessive traits such as poor resiliency to diseases or trait-related diseases which would have remained hidden in the gene pool of the wildtype birds. Since survival in the wild seem to favor the wildtype phenotype and genotype, any hatched homozygous recessive bird tend to be selectively culled by nature itself. But that's another story....
                   
                  Best Regards,
                  Jaie


                   
                  Warm Regards,
                   
                  Jaie
                • James Yangzon
                  Good day Jaie, I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue. First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2007
                    Good day Jaie,
                     
                    I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.  Then your explanation of Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment seems to indicate otherwise.  Finally, you have indicated that inbreeding can produce small as well as large animals depending on what traits you are trying to fixed in your stock.
                     
                    My interpretation on your explanations is that inbreeding is not the cause of the bird getting smaller.  Inbreeding is simply the tool to aid breeders in fixing some trait that they want their stock to have, whether it is the trait of smallness as in the case of the Pomeranians and the Yorkies, or the trait of largeness as in the case of the thoroughbreds and Great Danes.
                     
                    Therefore, the question still remains, does inbreeding causes the birds to get smaller?
                     
                    Thanks and God bless.
                     
                    James L. Yangzon

                    ubt@...> wrote:
                    Hello James and all,
                     
                    I've also observed that on the average, most of the Wild-type and Dominant trait birds tend to be bigger compared to the recessives. So I agree with Terry and the rests that this can be attributed to inbreeding of recessives to propagate the rare mutations.
                     
                    As far as the melanin vs. size theory, I have seen huge Ino and Parino birds and matter of fact, the two largest IRNs in my aviary is a Turquoise PallidIno cock and a Lutino hen, both bred by my buddy Sam Osby, also a member of this group. I also own two Blue IRNs which are smaller than average. So based on what I have seen and the birds that I own and bred, The "melanin=big size" theory will not stick.
                     
                    By Gregor Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment, size and color traits are inherited independent of each other. Not one gene is supposed to control two disparate physical characteristics at the same time. As such, huge size can be bred into any bird regardless of the mutation.
                     
                     
                    James Yangzon <jlyangzon@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    Regarding the inbreeding issue with the recessives, what precisely is  the process that leads to reduction of the bird's size?  If I am not mistaken, the thoroughbreds trace their ancestry to only three sires and thirty seven mares and yet the size and the performance were not only retained but were also vastly improved through the years.
                     
                    Inbreeding does not ONLY produce small size. Inbreeding can also produce large size and other physical traits which can be deemed desirable or undesirable depending on whose criteria or standard you are basing it on. Thoroughbred horses and Great Dane dogs were selectively inbred from the larger recessive mutant progenies because big size on these specimens were deemed as highly-desirable. On the flipside, small size is a desirable trait on dog breeds such as Pomeranians and Yorkies.
                     
                    Inbreeding and selective breeding will also propagate absolute undesirable recessive traits such as poor resiliency to diseases or trait-related diseases which would have remained hidden in the gene pool of the wildtype birds. Since survival in the wild seem to favor the wildtype phenotype and genotype, any hatched homozygous recessive bird tend to be selectively culled by nature itself. But that's another story....
                     
                    Best Regards,
                    Jaie


                     
                    Warm Regards,
                     
                    Jaie


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                  • Jaie
                    Hello James, James Yangzon wrote: I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue. First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                      Hello James,

                      James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                      I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                       
                       
                      Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool. 
                       
                      Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.
                       
                      So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.
                       


                       
                      Warm Regards,
                       
                      Jaie
                    • James Yangzon
                      Good day Jaie and all, In other words, inbreeding in itself, does not have anything to do with birds getting smaller, there is a different process that may or
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                        Good day Jaie and all,
                         
                        In other words, inbreeding in itself, does not have anything to do with birds getting smaller, there is a different process that may or may not include inbreeding that is responsible for it.  I am inclined to believe in Brian's explanation that since the breeder's ultimate objective is to perpetuate the recessive color, a breeder would not care that much about quality when inbreeding.
                         
                        Thanks and God bless.
                         
                        James L. Yangzon 

                        Jaie <leavenodoubt@...> wrote:
                        Hello James,

                        James Yangzon <jlyangzon@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                         
                         
                        Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool. 
                         
                        Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.
                         
                        So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.
                         


                         
                        Warm Regards,
                         
                        Jaie


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                      • Administrator
                        Tests have been carried out in mice to determine declining fertility as a consequense of inbreeding. Severel sets of siblings were paired in subsequent
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                          Tests have been carried out in mice to determine declining fertility as a consequense of inbreeding.

                          Severel sets of siblings were paired in subsequent generations and in more than one strain fertility was still high efter 5-6 geneartion of inbreeding. Other strings died out due to fertility loss. Very interesting results!!

                          This tells us that proper selection would allow us to maintain any feature to our liking just by selection.

                          Most exhibition budgerigarbreeder have singled out one or two colours to their liking. Many newer colours are not even found in the exhibition stocks. So again I think that "larger" grey-greens could well be effect of the fact that more generations have been bred. Thus being used to improve inferior new colours being established in the stocks.

                          Brian


                          -----Original message-----
                          From: James Yangzon jlyangzon@...
                          Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:24:21 +0200
                          To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

                          Good day Jaie and all,

                          In other words, inbreeding in itself, does not have anything to do with birds getting smaller, there is a different process that may or may not include inbreeding that is responsible for it. I am inclined to believe in Brian's explanation that since the breeder's ultimate objective is to perpetuate the recessive color, a breeder would not care that much about quality when inbreeding.

                          Thanks and God bless.

                          James L. Yangzon

                          Jaie <leavenodoubt@...> wrote:
                          Hello James,

                          James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                          I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue. First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.


                          Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool.

                          Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.

                          So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.




                          Warm Regards,

                          Jaie





                          ---------------------------------
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                        • Terry Martin
                          James My previous post perhaps should have said indiscriminate inbreeding . Unfortunately when establishing new colours the focus of breeding is generally too
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                            James
                             
                                My previous post perhaps should have said 'indiscriminate inbreeding'. Unfortunately when establishing new colours the focus of breeding is generally too narrowly focused on the new mutation to the detriment of other important traits such as maintaining size and vitality. Of course inbreeding can be used positively when sufficient offspring are bred and the focus is on the animal overall and not just a single trait.
                             
                                    Terry
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Jaie
                            Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 5:16 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

                            Hello James,

                            James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                            I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                             
                             
                            Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool. 
                             
                            Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.
                             
                            So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.
                             
                          • Jaie
                            Hello James, Brian, Terry and all; James Yangzon wrote: In other words, inbreeding in itself, does not have anything to do with birds
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                              Hello James, Brian, Terry and all;


                              James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                              In other words, inbreeding in itself, does not have anything to do with birds getting smaller,
                               
                              Again that's not what I said. Inbreeding is one of the reasons why some offsprings are smaller than normal, i.e. increased gene expression of recessive traits. The same thing I have been emphasizing over and over again. It is the reason why selection and culling is necessary in any inbreeding regimen otherwise your flock will deteriorate in quality. Even Brian stated so as follows:
                               
                              Administrator <admin@...> wrote:
                              I know for a fact that most of his top birds originated from the same small genepool 6-8 generations back but still he manages to breed better quality every year without bringing in new blood. So yes selection is the key.
                               
                              Ask yourself. What was the breeder selecting from? Or better yet, why is there a need for selection? The answer is quite obvious. He was only selecting to breed the bigger and vigorous offsprings because inbreeding does produce an unproportional amount of poor quality offsprings. Otherwise, there would be no need for selection if as you claim, inbreeding does not produce small and poor quality offsprings.
                               
                               
                              James Yangzon <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                              there is a different process that may or may not include inbreeding that is responsible for it.
                               
                              There is a such a process but it is not a mystery, at least not to me. It's called Mode of Inheritance, specifically recessive inheritance. It has to be because characteristics resulting from inbred specimens breed true or are inheritable as evidenced by the Yorkies and the Secretariats.
                               
                              It is also obvious that size is controlled not by a single locus but by an amalgamation of dominant and recessive genes on various loci .. and wanton inbreeding causes recessive genes to combine in chromosome pairs, I suspect some through genetic crossover, since as we know it, there are only a few pairs of chromosomes and but thousands of inheritable traits.
                               


                               
                              Warm Regards,
                               
                              Jaie
                            • Jaie
                              Very true. Most of my high-end mutations, whether melanin-based or not, are generally smaller. Hence, I m always on the lookout for big and robust wild-types
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 3, 2007
                                Very true. Most of my high-end mutations, whether melanin-based or not, are generally smaller. Hence, I'm always on the lookout for big and robust wild-types and blues to eventually outcross them to. Matter of fact, one of my ongoing breeding program is to produce a line of big, vigorous, bright-colored Green IRNs as I am quite fascinated by the beauty and grandeur of this wildtype.
                                 

                                Terry Martin <sbankvet@...> wrote:
                                James
                                 
                                    My previous post perhaps should have said 'indiscriminate inbreeding'. Unfortunately when establishing new colours the focus of breeding is generally too narrowly focused on the new mutation to the detriment of other important traits such as maintaining size and vitality. Of course inbreeding can be used positively when sufficient offspring are bred and the focus is on the animal overall and not just a single trait.
                                 
                                        Terry
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Jaie
                                Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 5:16 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacin e] Re: Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

                                Hello James,

                                James Yangzon <jlyangzon@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                                 
                                 
                                Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool. 
                                 
                                Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.
                                 
                                So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.
                                 



                                 
                                Warm Regards,
                                 
                                Jaie
                              • James Yangzon
                                Good day Jaie, Terry, Brian and all, No problem if Terry meant indiscriminate inbreeding . I have not meant though, that inbreeding does not lead to smaller
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 4, 2007
                                  Good day Jaie, Terry, Brian and all,
                                   
                                  No problem if Terry meant 'indiscriminate inbreeding'. 
                                   
                                  I have not meant though, that inbreeding does not lead to smaller birds, Jaie.  What I mean is inbreeding per se, without conscious selection leading to a smaller stock, do not necessarily diminish the size.  
                                   
                                  Terry have observed that grey-factored birds, even in other species, have improved on size.  I assumed that these birds were not a result of careful inbreeding, as this is how I understand Terry when he made the statement.  Now the next question is, do we agree with Terry's observation?  If not, the topic could not be settled unless a thorough study with appropriate measurements are done.  However, if we agree with Terry, then we are actually saying that indeed, color has a unique relation to size!  Assuming that color's special relation to size is already a fact, doesn't it directly contradict 'Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment' as how it was explained by Jaie?
                                   
                                  Thanks and God bless.
                                   
                                  James L. Yangzon
                                   


                                  Jaie <leavenodoubt@...> wrote:
                                  Very true. Most of my high-end mutations, whether melanin-based or not, are generally smaller. Hence, I'm always on the lookout for big and robust wild-types and blues to eventually outcross them to. Matter of fact, one of my ongoing breeding program is to produce a line of big, vigorous, bright-colored Green IRNs as I am quite fascinated by the beauty and grandeur of this wildtype.
                                   

                                  Terry Martin <sbankvet@bigpond. com> wrote:
                                  James
                                   
                                      My previous post perhaps should have said 'indiscriminate inbreeding'. Unfortunately when establishing new colours the focus of breeding is generally too narrowly focused on the new mutation to the detriment of other important traits such as maintaining size and vitality. Of course inbreeding can be used positively when sufficient offspring are bred and the focus is on the animal overall and not just a single trait.
                                   
                                          Terry
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Jaie
                                  Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 5:16 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Genetics-Psittacin e] Re: Budgie color and its relation to size: myth or fact?

                                  Hello James,

                                  James Yangzon <jlyangzon@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                  I am bit confused on where you stand on the issue.  First, you agree with Terry that inbreeding with recessives tend to make the bird smaller.
                                   
                                   
                                  Although I did say that small size can be attributed to inbreeding, it was not my intention to absolutely indicate that inbreeding can ONLY produce small size offsprings. What I was trying to emphasize is that inbreeding will manifest any recessive trait (whether small size, large size, albinism, etc) that would have otherwise remained hidden in the gene pool. 
                                   
                                  Related birds tend to contain the same recessive genes. So one stands a much higher probability of breeding homozygous recessive specimens when breeding related birds as opposed to introducing mates from an entirely separate gene pool.
                                   
                                  So, inbreeding (as well as hybridizing to some extent) when used properly, is a tool that has produced us all of the different breeds of animals that come in all sorts of colors, sizes, demeanors, and physical characteristics.
                                   



                                   
                                  Warm Regards,
                                   
                                  Jaie


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                                • Ken Yorke
                                  While I agree with Terry s comments, in the case of the Budgerigar there is an additional reason why the Grey factor birds are generally the most prominent
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 5, 2007
                                    While I agree with Terry's comments, in the case of the Budgerigar
                                    there is an additional reason why the Grey factor birds are generally
                                    the most prominent (read larger/better etc) in the exhibition
                                    circles.

                                    The unique feather structure of the Grey factor budgerigar has a
                                    beneficial spin-off effect which gives it an extra help on the show
                                    bench compared to other colours. Grey factor birds have VERY EVEN,
                                    CONSISTENT BODY COLOUR. They almost always lack any blotchiness,
                                    or "pigmentation" variation within the one bird.

                                    In contrast, Dark factor birds are renowned for poor uneven blotchy
                                    colour, both within individual feathers and in comparison to adjacent
                                    feathers. Even Normal light greens sometimes have colouration faults.

                                    This means that grey factor birds always earn more exhibition points
                                    in the allowable scale of points for colour compared to other
                                    colours. While this may only be subtle, it does give the Grey factor
                                    bird a slight edge.

                                    In most shows Grey Greens compete for the same major colour trophy as
                                    other greens (likewise Greys and blues). Hence over time greygreens
                                    tend to beat other greens for awards. As such the greygreens get
                                    favoured treatment in the breeding cage being bred to the better
                                    quality mates.

                                    As the greygreens are being bred to better quality birds you get
                                    disproportionately more better quality grey greens.

                                    It becomes similar to the idea of the self-fulfilling prophesy.
                                    Slighter better birds for one reason get better for another reason
                                    and continue to get better. This process has taken several decades to
                                    occur.

                                    Grey green or grey birds (albeit in various varieties) now win far in
                                    excess than average number of major awards at budgerigar shows.

                                    Just as the grey green is now preferred and thus improved, the same
                                    argument in reverse applies to Dark factor birds whose innate colour
                                    faults have lead to its demise in numbers and quality in the
                                    exhibition arena.

                                    In contrast, grey greens from NON-exhibition bred stock have no
                                    obvious size/quality advantage over any other colour because they are
                                    not being selected nor improved for exhibition qualities and thus not
                                    receiving any biased breeding treatment.

                                    Ken Yorke
                                    kyorke@...
                                    http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm



                                    --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, "jlyangzon"
                                    <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but
                                    if
                                    > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
                                    > from one of the members of the group.
                                    >
                                    > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
                                    > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
                                    > scientifically.
                                    >
                                    > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
                                    > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
                                    > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
                                    >
                                    > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and
                                    lack
                                    > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
                                    >
                                    > Any scientific study on this subject?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks and God bless.
                                    >
                                    > James L. Yangzon
                                    >
                                  • James Yangzon
                                    Good day Ken and all, The analogy to the idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy says it all. Your description on how a slightly advantageous trait for the
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 6, 2007
                                      Good day Ken and all,
                                       
                                      The analogy to the 'idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy' says it all.  Your description on how a slightly advantageous trait for the showbench can be fixed and improved, seems to me a logical one.
                                       
                                      I have relied on experts' observation that grey-factored birds, indeed, have slighlty bigger built than the usual. (This is without the usual selection for size.) And your additional info that the feather structure of grey-factored birds gave them a 'very even, consistent body colour' is also very interesting.
                                       
                                      If we will take these two traits (size and feather structure) of the grey-factored birds as fact, again, this will contradict 'Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment', unless of course the genes that control the two said traits are linked with the grey gene.
                                       
                                      Can we then take the grey-factored birds' trait of size and feather structure as an evidence that these genes are linked, that is why they do not conform to the 'Law of Independent Assortment'?
                                       
                                      Thanks and God bless.
                                       
                                      James L. Yangzon 
                                       
                                      Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
                                      While I agree with Terry's comments, in the case of the Budgerigar
                                      there is an additional reason why the Grey factor birds are generally
                                      the most prominent (read larger/better etc) in the exhibition
                                      circles.

                                      The unique feather structure of the Grey factor budgerigar has a
                                      beneficial spin-off effect which gives it an extra help on the show
                                      bench compared to other colours. Grey factor birds have VERY EVEN,
                                      CONSISTENT BODY COLOUR. They almost always lack any blotchiness,
                                      or "pigmentation" variation within the one bird.

                                      In contrast, Dark factor birds are renowned for poor uneven blotchy
                                      colour, both within individual feathers and in comparison to adjacent
                                      feathers. Even Normal light greens sometimes have colouration faults.

                                      This means that grey factor birds always earn more exhibition points
                                      in the allowable scale of points for colour compared to other
                                      colours. While this may only be subtle, it does give the Grey factor
                                      bird a slight edge.

                                      In most shows Grey Greens compete for the same major colour trophy as
                                      other greens (likewise Greys and blues). Hence over time greygreens
                                      tend to beat other greens for awards. As such the greygreens get
                                      favoured treatment in the breeding cage being bred to the better
                                      quality mates.

                                      As the greygreens are being bred to better quality birds you get
                                      disproportionately more better quality grey greens.

                                      It becomes similar to the idea of the self-fulfilling prophesy.
                                      Slighter better birds for one reason get better for another reason
                                      and continue to get better. This process has taken several decades to
                                      occur.

                                      Grey green or grey birds (albeit in various varieties) now win far in
                                      excess than average number of major awards at budgerigar shows.

                                      Just as the grey green is now preferred and thus improved, the same
                                      argument in reverse applies to Dark factor birds whose innate colour
                                      faults have lead to its demise in numbers and quality in the
                                      exhibition arena.

                                      In contrast, grey greens from NON-exhibition bred stock have no
                                      obvious size/quality advantage over any other colour because they are
                                      not being selected nor improved for exhibition qualities and thus not
                                      receiving any biased breeding treatment.

                                      Ken Yorke
                                      kyorke@tpgi. com.au
                                      http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm

                                      --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, "jlyangzon"
                                      <jlyangzon@. ..> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but
                                      if
                                      > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
                                      > from one of the members of the group.
                                      >
                                      > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
                                      > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
                                      > scientifically.
                                      >
                                      > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
                                      > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
                                      > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
                                      >
                                      > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and
                                      lack
                                      > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
                                      >
                                      > Any scientific study on this subject?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks and God bless.
                                      >
                                      > James L. Yangzon
                                      >



                                      Building a website is a piece of cake.
                                      Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

                                    • forpus_corner
                                      Hello everybody, please keep in mind, that this is not always the fact! F.e. in plumhead (the dominant greygreen mutation), the breeders had problems with the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 6, 2007
                                        Hello everybody,

                                        please keep in mind, that this is not always the fact!
                                        F.e. in plumhead (the dominant greygreen mutation), the breeders had
                                        problems with the size at the beginning. Some of the greygreen was
                                        "much" smaller than the wildcolored birds!

                                        Greetings
                                        frank


                                        --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, James Yangzon
                                        <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Good day Ken and all,
                                        >
                                        > The analogy to the 'idea of the self-fulfilling prophecy' says it
                                        all. Your description on how a slightly advantageous trait for the
                                        showbench can be fixed and improved, seems to me a logical one.
                                        >
                                        > I have relied on experts' observation that grey-factored birds,
                                        indeed, have slighlty bigger built than the usual. (This is without
                                        the usual selection for size.) And your additional info that the
                                        feather structure of grey-factored birds gave them a 'very even,
                                        consistent body colour' is also very interesting.
                                        >
                                        > If we will take these two traits (size and feather structure) of
                                        the grey-factored birds as fact, again, this will contradict 'Mendel's
                                        Law of Independent Assortment', unless of course the genes that
                                        control the two said traits are linked with the grey gene.
                                        >
                                        > Can we then take the grey-factored birds' trait of size and
                                        feather structure as an evidence that these genes are linked, that is
                                        why they do not conform to the 'Law of Independent Assortment'?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks and God bless.
                                        >
                                        > James L. Yangzon
                                        >
                                        > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
                                        > While I agree with Terry's comments, in the case of the
                                        Budgerigar
                                        > there is an additional reason why the Grey factor birds are generally
                                        > the most prominent (read larger/better etc) in the exhibition
                                        > circles.
                                        >
                                        > The unique feather structure of the Grey factor budgerigar has a
                                        > beneficial spin-off effect which gives it an extra help on the show
                                        > bench compared to other colours. Grey factor birds have VERY EVEN,
                                        > CONSISTENT BODY COLOUR. They almost always lack any blotchiness,
                                        > or "pigmentation" variation within the one bird.
                                        >
                                        > In contrast, Dark factor birds are renowned for poor uneven blotchy
                                        > colour, both within individual feathers and in comparison to adjacent
                                        > feathers. Even Normal light greens sometimes have colouration faults.
                                        >
                                        > This means that grey factor birds always earn more exhibition points
                                        > in the allowable scale of points for colour compared to other
                                        > colours. While this may only be subtle, it does give the Grey factor
                                        > bird a slight edge.
                                        >
                                        > In most shows Grey Greens compete for the same major colour trophy as
                                        > other greens (likewise Greys and blues). Hence over time greygreens
                                        > tend to beat other greens for awards. As such the greygreens get
                                        > favoured treatment in the breeding cage being bred to the better
                                        > quality mates.
                                        >
                                        > As the greygreens are being bred to better quality birds you get
                                        > disproportionately more better quality grey greens.
                                        >
                                        > It becomes similar to the idea of the self-fulfilling prophesy.
                                        > Slighter better birds for one reason get better for another reason
                                        > and continue to get better. This process has taken several decades to
                                        > occur.
                                        >
                                        > Grey green or grey birds (albeit in various varieties) now win far in
                                        > excess than average number of major awards at budgerigar shows.
                                        >
                                        > Just as the grey green is now preferred and thus improved, the same
                                        > argument in reverse applies to Dark factor birds whose innate colour
                                        > faults have lead to its demise in numbers and quality in the
                                        > exhibition arena.
                                        >
                                        > In contrast, grey greens from NON-exhibition bred stock have no
                                        > obvious size/quality advantage over any other colour because they are
                                        > not being selected nor improved for exhibition qualities and thus not
                                        > receiving any biased breeding treatment.
                                        >
                                        > Ken Yorke
                                        > kyorke@...
                                        > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
                                        >
                                        > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, "jlyangzon"
                                        > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask this question, but
                                        > if
                                        > > there is someone who can help me on this one I guess it would come
                                        > > from one of the members of the group.
                                        > >
                                        > > It has been discussed and practiced by experienced budgie breeders
                                        > > all over the world, but I have found nobody who validates it
                                        > > scientifically.
                                        > >
                                        > > They say that greygreen gives you size, whether it is the body or
                                        > > just the feather size, is not certain. They would also swear that
                                        > > ino and partial ino budgies are 'small' in nature.
                                        > >
                                        > > Generally, it seems that melanin based color gives you size and
                                        > lack
                                        > > or small quantities of it gives you otherwise.
                                        > >
                                        > > Any scientific study on this subject?
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks and God bless.
                                        > >
                                        > > James L. Yangzon
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Building a website is a piece of cake.
                                        > Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
                                        >
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