Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE : [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Darkwing locus clarification

Expand Messages
  • Ken Yorke
    The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet, nor many other varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be affected by the Darkwing
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet, nor many other
      varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be affected
      by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.

      In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
      difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference from
      ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
      head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect Pied
      varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties do
      not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.

      It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this has
      not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded variety
      itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
      complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
      Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing component
      from them.

      I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
      Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing(sf)
      Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon Dilutes
      and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
      (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).

      Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
      made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most striking
      visual combination and the only combination which has been
      standardised by the exhibtion societies.

      Ken Yorke
      kyorke@...
      http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm



      --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Stephane Tintin
      <tintin_montreal1972@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
      > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
      alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka FullbodycolouredGreywings),
      Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
      other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
      Fallows ?
      >
      > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of wether
      the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
      albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
      >
      > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
      Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also display
      dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
      Parakeet.
      >
      > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
      modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
      neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine, IRN,
      moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
      feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible throughout
      species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
      Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could also
      be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
      >
      > Best regards,
      > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka Tintin,
      > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
      >
      > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
      > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feral_Naturalized_Parrots/
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rareparrots/
      >
      > http://fr.briefcase.yahoo.com/tintin_montreal1972
      >
      > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/AvicultureCanadaFr/
      > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetique_Psittacidae
      > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Grand-Alexandre/
      > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perroquets_Etrangers_Naturalises/
      > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perruche_ondulee
      > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Psittacula/
      >
      > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> a écrit :
      >
      >
      > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
      modifier gene in
      > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the Dilute
      > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the dilute
      > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double factor
      > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
      > Darkwings.
      >
      > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
      (read
      > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on body
      > colour.
      >
      > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal green
      > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
      factor.
      >
      > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on Darkwings
      but
      > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte could
      > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
      >
      > Ken Yorke
      > kyorke@...
      > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
      >
      > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, "jlyangzon"
      > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Good day everyone,
      > >
      > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely independent
      > of
      > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its action
      > is
      > > expressed evidently?
      > >
      > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the wildtype
      > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
      > >
      > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially those
      with
      > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
      > >
      > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
      > melanin
      > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
      > region
      > > only?
      > >
      > > thanks and God bless.
      > >
      > > James L. Yangzon
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
      > ---------------------------------
      > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
      >
    • James Yangzon
      Good day Ken, If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it as a primary
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 3, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Good day Ken,
         
        If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it as a primary mutation in itself.
         
        We will assume for the time being that it is a primary mutation and will consider all its features and see if it also fits in the dilute genes scenario.
         
        As a primary mutation, it will be the 4th member of the dilute gene family in budgerigar.  It is described as having a dilute body but retains ' an almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar. 
         
        The explanation that the darkwing enhances foreground melanin markings but on dilutes only is a bit complicated.  This imply that the gene can only act if the species already produced dilute mutation(s), otherwise it is consigned to oblivion having no effect on other varieties. 
         
        A much simpler explanation is that darkwing is the 4th member of the recessive dilute gene family but having partial or incomplete dominance in inheritance when multiple allelic with the dilute locus.
         
        Dilutes, i.e., dilute, greywing and clearwing have interesting interaction with each other.  Darkwing would then be dominant to dilutes (as texas clearbody to ino) but is, of course, recessive to normals.  It would then have no effect on normals simply because it is carried as a 'split'.
         
        I am inclined to think that this view is not something new, I am sure that before you came with the modifier model you already consider the primary mutation hypothesis, and that your breeding programs with the darkwing tend to support the former.  Thus, I would be grateful if you share with us the result of your breeding programs which concluded  that darkwing is indeed a modifier.
         
        Thanks and God bless.
        James L. Yangzon
         
        Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
        The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet, nor many other
        varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be affected
        by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.

        In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
        difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference from
        ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
        head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect Pied
        varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties do
        not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.

        It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this has
        not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded variety
        itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
        complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
        Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing component
        from them.

        I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
        Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing(sf)
        Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon Dilutes
        and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
        (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).

        Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
        made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most striking
        visual combination and the only combination which has been
        standardised by the exhibtion societies.

        Ken Yorke
        kyorke@tpgi. com.au
        http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm

        --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, Stephane Tintin
        <tintin_montreal197 2@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
        > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
        alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka FullbodycolouredGre ywings),
        Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
        other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
        Fallows ?
        >
        > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of wether
        the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
        albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
        >
        > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
        Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also display
        dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
        Parakeet.
        >
        > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
        modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
        neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine, IRN,
        moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
        feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible throughout
        species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
        Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could also
        be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka Tintin,
        > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
        >
        > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
        > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
        >
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Feral_ Naturalized_ Parrots/
        > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rareparrot s/
        >
        > http://fr.briefcase .yahoo.com/ tintin_montreal1 972
        >
        > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Aviculture CanadaFr/
        > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Genetique_ Psittacidae
        > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Grand- Alexandre/
        > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perroquets _Etrangers_ Naturalises/
        > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perruche_ ondulee
        > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Psittacula /
        >
        > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> a écrit :
        >
        >
        > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
        modifier gene in
        > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the Dilute
        > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the dilute
        > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double factor
        > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
        > Darkwings.
        >
        > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
        (read
        > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on body
        > colour.
        >
        > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal green
        > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
        factor.
        >
        > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on Darkwings
        but
        > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte could
        > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
        >
        > Ken Yorke
        > kyorke@...
        > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
        >
        > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, "jlyangzon"
        > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Good day everyone,
        > >
        > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely independent
        > of
        > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its action
        > is
        > > expressed evidently?
        > >
        > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the wildtype
        > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
        > >
        > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially those
        with
        > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
        > >
        > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
        > melanin
        > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
        > region
        > > only?
        > >
        > > thanks and God bless.
        > >
        > > James L. Yangzon
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
        > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
        >



        Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.

      • Ken Yorke
        James, Unfortunately Mother Nature is not always simple. The Darkwing gene is ABSOLUTELY NOT a multiple allele of the Dilute locus. I have proven this in test
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          James,
          Unfortunately Mother Nature is not always simple. The Darkwing gene
          is ABSOLUTELY NOT a multiple allele of the Dilute locus. I have
          proven this in test matings. Several people with formal university
          training in genetics have reviewed my matings and theory and have
          agreed with my conclusions (including one person who at first, like
          you, thought it was a multiple allele so he duplicated my experiments
          with his own birds and arrived at my conclusions as well)

          I have an article on my website on the darkwing including its
          genetics at http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/p101.htm which I
          think will answer your questions. This article and lots of photos etc
          also appear in my "BUDGERIGAR VARIETY BIBLE"
          http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke.p413.htm .

          The short version of the explanation is that it is possible to create
          a bird which has 3 different alleles at the same time. For example,
          the bird carries a Darkwing gene, a Clearwing Gene and a Dilute gene
          simultanously. This is not possible if the Darkwing gene is a
          multiple allele of the Dilute locus. Any locus can only carry a
          maximum of 2 alleles of any type, not 3. For the bird to carry 3
          genes (which has proven possible) then one of the genes (i.e. the
          Darkwing gene) must reside at a different locus.
          Ken Yorke
          kyorke@...
          http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm



          --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, James Yangzon
          <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
          >
          > Good day Ken,
          >
          > If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing
          are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it as
          a primary mutation in itself.
          >
          > We will assume for the time being that it is a primary mutation
          and will consider all its features and see if it also fits in the
          dilute genes scenario.
          >
          > As a primary mutation, it will be the 4th member of the dilute
          gene family in budgerigar. It is described as having a dilute body
          but retains ' an almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented
          markings of the budgerigar.
          >
          > The explanation that the darkwing enhances foreground melanin
          markings but on dilutes only is a bit complicated. This imply that
          the gene can only act if the species already produced dilute mutation
          (s), otherwise it is consigned to oblivion having no effect on other
          varieties.
          >
          > A much simpler explanation is that darkwing is the 4th member of
          the recessive dilute gene family but having partial or incomplete
          dominance in inheritance when multiple allelic with the dilute locus.
          >
          > Dilutes, i.e., dilute, greywing and clearwing have interesting
          interaction with each other. Darkwing would then be dominant to
          dilutes (as texas clearbody to ino) but is, of course, recessive to
          normals. It would then have no effect on normals simply because it
          is carried as a 'split'.
          >
          > I am inclined to think that this view is not something new, I am
          sure that before you came with the modifier model you already
          consider the primary mutation hypothesis, and that your breeding
          programs with the darkwing tend to support the former. Thus, I would
          be grateful if you share with us the result of your breeding programs
          which concluded that darkwing is indeed a modifier.
          >
          > Thanks and God bless.
          >
          > James L. Yangzon
          >
          > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
          > The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet,
          nor many other
          > varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be
          affected
          > by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.
          >
          > In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
          > difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference
          from
          > ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
          > head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect Pied
          > varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties do
          > not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.
          >
          > It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this
          has
          > not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded variety
          > itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
          > complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
          > Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing component
          > from them.
          >
          > I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
          > Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing(sf)
          > Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon Dilutes
          > and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
          > (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).
          >
          > Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
          > made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most striking
          > visual combination and the only combination which has been
          > standardised by the exhibtion societies.
          >
          > Ken Yorke
          > kyorke@...
          > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
          >
          > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Stephane Tintin
          > <tintin_montreal1972@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
          > > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
          > alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka
          FullbodycolouredGreywings),
          > Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
          > other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
          > Fallows ?
          > >
          > > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of wether
          > the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
          > albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
          > >
          > > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
          > Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also display
          > dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
          > Parakeet.
          > >
          > > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
          > modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
          > neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine,
          IRN,
          > moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
          > feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible throughout
          > species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
          > Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could
          also
          > be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
          > >
          > > Best regards,
          > > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka
          Tintin,
          > > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
          > >
          > > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
          > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feral_Naturalized_Parrots/
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rareparrots/
          > >
          > > http://fr.briefcase.yahoo.com/tintin_montreal1972
          > >
          > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/AvicultureCanadaFr/
          > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetique_Psittacidae
          > > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Grand-Alexandre/
          > > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perroquets_Etrangers_Naturalises/
          > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perruche_ondulee
          > > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Psittacula/
          > >
          > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> a écrit :
          > >
          > >
          > > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
          > modifier gene in
          > > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the Dilute
          > > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the
          dilute
          > > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double
          factor
          > > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
          > > Darkwings.
          > >
          > > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
          > (read
          > > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on
          body
          > > colour.
          > >
          > > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal green
          > > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
          > factor.
          > >
          > > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on Darkwings
          > but
          > > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte
          could
          > > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
          > >
          > > Ken Yorke
          > > kyorke@
          > > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
          > >
          > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, "jlyangzon"
          > > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Good day everyone,
          > > >
          > > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely
          independent
          > > of
          > > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its
          action
          > > is
          > > > expressed evidently?
          > > >
          > > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the
          wildtype
          > > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
          > > >
          > > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially those
          > with
          > > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
          > > >
          > > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
          > > melanin
          > > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
          > > region
          > > > only?
          > > >
          > > > thanks and God bless.
          > > >
          > > > James L. Yangzon
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
          surfing.
          >
        • James Yangzon
          Good day Ken, I fell prey to anthropomorphism s venom, Mother Nature, you are right, is neither simple nor complicated. Mother Nature knows no simplicity or
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Good day Ken,
             
            I fell prey to anthropomorphism's venom, Mother Nature, you are right, is neither simple nor complicated.  Mother Nature knows no simplicity or complexity!  It is us just what it is.
             
            However, with due respect to you Ken and the others who validated the modifier model you have developed regarding the darkwing, I found an equally consistent system that may also explain how the darkwing works.
             
            Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family and is described as having a diluted body but retains an 'almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar, their multiple allellism can also explain the results of the breeding program you published in your website.  Provided that we treat darkwing as dominant to dilute.  The partial or incomplete dominance of the darkwing also fits with the hypothesis.
             
            The typical matings you published is as follows:
             
            SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing and 50% dilute
             
            SF darkwing dilute X Sf darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing dilute + 50% SF darkwing dilute + 25% dilute
             
            With multiple allelism, and darkwing being dominant to dilute, this becomes:
             
            SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing/dilute and 50% dilute
             
            SF darkwing dilute X SF darkwing dilute =  25% DF darkwing + 50% SF darkwing/dilute + 25% dilute
             
            When you factor the cinnamon gene in the equation, same principle apply and the result is the same.  The only difference is that dilute can now be carried as a split when multiple allele with the darkwing.
             
            Inte Onsman have published an interesting findings regarding the dilute gene family.  It has an order of dominance: Wildtype - Greywing - Clearwing - Dilute. 
             
            I am not sure what you mean by a bird carrying 'three' allele at the same time as darkwing, clearwing and dilute.  If what you mean by this is that the bird's offspring included a darkwing, clearwing and dilute, this can also be explained by multiple allelism hypothesis, provided that we treat clearwing as dominant to darkwing.
             
            The order of dominance would then be: Wildtype - Greywing - Clearwing - Darkwing - Dilute.
             
            I am not sure about the order of dominance between greywing and darkwing though as information is lacking on the subject.
             
            An example of a multiple allelic pairing, having clearwing as dominant to darkwing, that may yield an offspring of darkwing, clearwing and dilute would then be:
             
            SF darkwing/dilute X Clearwing/dilute = 25% clearwing/darkwing + 25%  SFdarkwing/dilute + 25% clearwing/dilute + 25% dilute
             
            Normals and other varieties would not be affected then simply because darkwing is carried as a split.
             
            Thanks and God bless.
             
            James L. Yangzon

            Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
            James,
            Unfortunately Mother Nature is not always simple. The Darkwing gene
            is ABSOLUTELY NOT a multiple allele of the Dilute locus. I have
            proven this in test matings. Several people with formal university
            training in genetics have reviewed my matings and theory and have
            agreed with my conclusions (including one person who at first, like
            you, thought it was a multiple allele so he duplicated my experiments
            with his own birds and arrived at my conclusions as well)

            I have an article on my website on the darkwing including its
            genetics at http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ p101.htm which I
            think will answer your questions. This article and lots of photos etc
            also appear in my "BUDGERIGAR VARIETY BIBLE"
            http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke. p413.htm .

            The short version of the explanation is that it is possible to create
            a bird which has 3 different alleles at the same time. For example,
            the bird carries a Darkwing gene, a Clearwing Gene and a Dilute gene
            simultanously. This is not possible if the Darkwing gene is a
            multiple allele of the Dilute locus. Any locus can only carry a
            maximum of 2 alleles of any type, not 3. For the bird to carry 3
            genes (which has proven possible) then one of the genes (i.e. the
            Darkwing gene) must reside at a different locus.
            Ken Yorke
            kyorke@tpgi. com.au
            http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm

            --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, James Yangzon
            <jlyangzon@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Good day Ken,
            >
            > If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing
            are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it as
            a primary mutation in itself.
            >
            > We will assume for the time being that it is a primary mutation
            and will consider all its features and see if it also fits in the
            dilute genes scenario.
            >
            > As a primary mutation, it will be the 4th member of the dilute
            gene family in budgerigar. It is described as having a dilute body
            but retains ' an almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented
            markings of the budgerigar.
            >
            > The explanation that the darkwing enhances foreground melanin
            markings but on dilutes only is a bit complicated. This imply that
            the gene can only act if the species already produced dilute mutation
            (s), otherwise it is consigned to oblivion having no effect on other
            varieties.
            >
            > A much simpler explanation is that darkwing is the 4th member of
            the recessive dilute gene family but having partial or incomplete
            dominance in inheritance when multiple allelic with the dilute locus.
            >
            > Dilutes, i.e., dilute, greywing and clearwing have interesting
            interaction with each other. Darkwing would then be dominant to
            dilutes (as texas clearbody to ino) but is, of course, recessive to
            normals. It would then have no effect on normals simply because it
            is carried as a 'split'.
            >
            > I am inclined to think that this view is not something new, I am
            sure that before you came with the modifier model you already
            consider the primary mutation hypothesis, and that your breeding
            programs with the darkwing tend to support the former. Thus, I would
            be grateful if you share with us the result of your breeding programs
            which concluded that darkwing is indeed a modifier.
            >
            > Thanks and God bless.
            >
            > James L. Yangzon
            >
            > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
            > The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet,
            nor many other
            > varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be
            affected
            > by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.
            >
            > In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
            > difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference
            from
            > ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
            > head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect Pied
            > varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties do
            > not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.
            >
            > It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this
            has
            > not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded variety
            > itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
            > complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
            > Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing component
            > from them.
            >
            > I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
            > Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing(sf)
            > Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon Dilutes
            > and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
            > (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).
            >
            > Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
            > made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most striking
            > visual combination and the only combination which has been
            > standardised by the exhibtion societies.
            >
            > Ken Yorke
            > kyorke@...
            > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
            >
            > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, Stephane Tintin
            > <tintin_montreal197 2@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
            > > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
            > alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka
            FullbodycolouredGre ywings),
            > Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
            > other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
            > Fallows ?
            > >
            > > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of wether
            > the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
            > albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
            > >
            > > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
            > Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also display
            > dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
            > Parakeet.
            > >
            > > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
            > modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
            > neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine,
            IRN,
            > moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
            > feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible throughout
            > species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
            > Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could
            also
            > be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
            > >
            > > Best regards,
            > > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka
            Tintin,
            > > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
            > >
            > > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
            > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
            > >
            > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Feral_ Naturalized_ Parrots/
            > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rareparrot s/
            > >
            > > http://fr.briefcase .yahoo.com/ tintin_montreal1 972
            > >
            > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Aviculture CanadaFr/
            > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Genetique_ Psittacidae
            > > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Grand- Alexandre/
            > > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perroquets _Etrangers_ Naturalises/
            > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perruche_ ondulee
            > > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Psittacula /
            > >
            > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> a écrit :
            > >
            > >
            > > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
            > modifier gene in
            > > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the Dilute
            > > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the
            dilute
            > > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double
            factor
            > > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
            > > Darkwings.
            > >
            > > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
            > (read
            > > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on
            body
            > > colour.
            > >
            > > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal green
            > > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
            > factor.
            > >
            > > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on Darkwings
            > but
            > > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte
            could
            > > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
            > >
            > > Ken Yorke
            > > kyorke@
            > > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
            > >
            > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, "jlyangzon"
            > > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Good day everyone,
            > > >
            > > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely
            independent
            > > of
            > > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its
            action
            > > is
            > > > expressed evidently?
            > > >
            > > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the
            wildtype
            > > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
            > > >
            > > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially those
            > with
            > > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
            > > >
            > > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
            > > melanin
            > > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
            > > region
            > > > only?
            > > >
            > > > thanks and God bless.
            > > >
            > > > James L. Yangzon
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
            > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
            surfing.
            >



            Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
            Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

          • Dirk Van den Abeele
            James wrote: “Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family and is described as having a diluted body but retains an almost normal
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment

              James wrote:

              Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family and is described as having a diluted body but retains an 'almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar, their multiple allellism can also explain the results of the breeding program you published in your website.  Provided that we treat darkwing as dominant to dilute.  The partial or incomplete dominance of the darkwing also fit s with the hypothesis.”

               

              Hi James,

              Interesting hypothesis. 

              I guess If darkwing is a dominant allele of the dil-locus that should indicate that even combined with the wildtype a part of the offspring must be darkwing.   The fact that it only happens in combination with a mutation if the dil-locus makes us believe that it is a dominant modifier.

               

              James wrote: “The only difference is that dilute can now be carried as a split when multiple allele with the darkwing.”

              For a start, we have to be very careful with this.  There is little know about the interaction between a dominant and a recessive allele from the same locus in birds. 
              So basic question is: if one of the alleles is dominant and the other allele of the same locus is recessive, can we consider them as split to the recessive allele ? 

              We mainly considers a bird as a split the moment that is heterozygote  to a recessive mutation. A bird is green/blue, blue/NSL ino etc.  In that case only one of the two alleles is mutated.  The other allele is unaffected.

              In case of multiple alleles both loci are affected and so there is always an interaction between both alleles.  That is why I think we can’t considers this as ’split to’.

               

              Interesting in this discussion is the question is also: how to indicate the combination of a Dominant allele and a recessive allele of the same locus (if they appears)? 
              In combination of two recessive alleles of the same locus we indicate them by writing both names of the basic mutations next to each other, e.g. PastelIno. The first letters of the mutations are capitals: Pastel and Ino.  

              I guess we can avoid this problem to indicate the dominant allele by writing the whole name in capitals.  Eg: MUTANT1Mutant2.  I don’t think it is necessary to indicate SF because in this case the bird can’t  be DF for the same mutation.

              Just my opinion,

               

              Greetings from Belgium,

               

              Dirk Van den Abeele

               

              MUTAVI, Research & Advice Group
              Ornitho-Genetics VZW

               

              From: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Yangzon
              Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 4:14 AM
              To: Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: RE : [Genetics-Psittacine] Re: Darkwing: Modifier or primary mutation?

               

              Good day Ken,

               

              I fell prey to anthropomorphism's venom, Mother Nature, you are right, is neither simple nor complicated.  Mother Nature knows no simplicity or complexity!  It is us just what it is.

               

              However, with due respect to you Ken and the others who validated the modifier model you have developed regarding the darkwing, I found an equally consistent system that may also explain how the darkwing works.

               

              Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family and is described as having a diluted body but retains an 'almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar, their multiple allellism can also explain the results of the breeding program you published in your website.  Provided that we treat darkwing as dominant to dilute.  The partial or incomplete dominance of the darkwing also fit s with the hypothesis.

               

              The typical matings you published is as follows:

               

              SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing and 50% dilute

               

              SF darkwing dilute X Sf darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing dilute + 50% SF darkwing dilute + 25% dilute

               

              With multiple allelism, and darkwing being dominant to dilute, this becomes:

               

              SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing/dilute and 50% dilute

               

              SF darkwing dilute X SF darkwing dilute =  25% DF darkwing + 50% SF darkwing/dilute + 25% dilute

               

              When you factor the cinnamon gene in the equation, same principle apply and the result is the same.  The only difference is that dilute can now be carried as a split when multiple allele with the darkwing.

               

              Inte Onsman have published an interesting findings regarding the dilute gene family.  It has an order of dominance: Wildtype - Greywing - Clearwing - Dilute. 

               

              I am not sure what you mean by a bird carrying 'three' allele at the same time as darkwing, clearwing and dilute.  If what you mean by this is that the bird's offspring included a darkwing, clearwing and dilute, this can also be explained by multiple allelism hypothesis, provided that we treat clearwing as dominant to darkwing.

               

              The order of dominance would then be: Wildtype - Greywing - Clearwing - Darkwing - Dilute.

               

              I am not sure about the order of dominance between greywing and darkwing though as information is lacking on the subject.

               

              An example of a multiple allelic pairing, having clearwing as dominant to darkwing, that may yield an offspring of darkwing, clearwing and dilute would then be:

               

              SF darkwing/dilute X Clearwing/dilute = 25% clearwing/darkwing + 25%  SFdarkwing/dilute + 25% clearwing/dilute + 25% dilute

               

              Normals and other varieties would not be affected then simply because darkwing is carried as a split.

               

              Thanks and God bless.

               

              James L. Yangzon




              No virus found in this outgoing message.
              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.9/832 - Release Date: 4/06/2007 18:43

            • Ken Yorke
              Sorry to dissallusion you James, but it doesn t work. By three genes I mean a bird which is Darkwing(sf)Clearwing/Dilute (This bird has been bred and test
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 6, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Sorry to dissallusion you James, but it doesn't work.
                By three genes I mean a bird which is Darkwing(sf)Clearwing/Dilute
                (This bird has been bred and test mated). Darkwing(df)
                Clearwing/Dilute is also theoretically possible, i.e contains 4
                genes. Such birds are physically impossible to exist under a multiple
                allele theory.

                You appear to be also under the misapprehension that the Darkwing
                gene causes the yellow body colour. It does not. To get yellow body
                colour the bird must have 2 dilute genes. Darkwing has no effect on
                body colour no matter what variety it is combined with.

                The matings I quoted in my article and you refer to are the ones I
                suggested as the most commonly used and best to use to produce
                Darkwing Dilutes. If one looks ONLY at these matings then yes , a
                multiple allele theory would fit those particular matings, which is
                exactly where we all were back in the 1980's and early 1990's. If you
                go outside these matings and introduce other members of the multiple
                allele family such as Greywing and/or Clearwing, then the multiple
                allele theory for Darkwing fails miserably.

                I will include a partial extract from an article I wrote back in
                1997. I no longer display this article on my website as some other
                parts of it (not shown) have been superceded. The extract shown below
                explains just one of the matings done to disprove the multiple allele
                theory. (N.B. where it refers to "Clearbody" it means "Darkwing" as
                at that time the current multiple allele theory classed the proposed
                4th allele as "Clearbody". The term "Greywing Yellow" is the old term
                from the 1930's.)

                EXTRACT BELOW *******************************

                "As the birds were yellow in body colour with very dark wings the
                term clearbody came into common use to describe the Greywing Yellow.
                Hence the theory assumed a Clearbody gene was now a fourth member of
                the Clearwing, Greywing and Yellow family. In this theory, The
                clearbody (Greywing Yellow) gene was believed to be dominant over the
                Yellow and recessive to normal. Its interaction with greywing and
                clearwing was not known with any degree of certainty. Under this
                theory double factor clearbodies and single factor clearbodies were
                possible.

                This multiple allele theory has survived for quite a number of years
                and appeared reasonably accurate within the few types of matings
                performed. However, for the breeder who goes beyond some of the
                common matings, some "unexplained" youngsters do appear. This
                suggests that the theory is not correct.

                The author commenced a series of breeding experiments a few years ago
                with the aim of testing the multiple allele theory. These experiments
                are still not finished, but sufficient evidence has appeared to date
                to suggest (if not prove) that the multiple allele theory is
                incorrect.

                A test mating of a Clearbody(sf)/Yellow x Clearwing/Yellow was made.
                The expectations under the multiple allele theory should be:- 25%
                Yellow, 25% Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Clearbody(sf)/Yellow, 25% Clearwing
                Clearbody. (N.B. the Clearwing Clearbody is a bird which looks very
                similar to a very dark greywing. It has the body colour of the
                clearwing and the dark wing pattern of the clearbody.) Actual results
                of this mating follow the theory.

                However, when the Clearwing Clearbody produced above was test mated
                back to a Yellow the multiple allele theory failed. The theoretical
                expectations should be:- 50% Clearwing/Yellow, 50% Clearbody
                (sf)/Yellow.
                The actual results were:- Yellow, Clearwing Clearbody,
                Clearwing/Yellow, Clearbody(sf)/Yellow. The first two progeny types
                listed do not follow the theory and are impossible to achieve if the
                theory is correct. In order to get Yellow progeny both parents had to
                carry the Yellow gene. This means that the Clearwing Clearbody parent
                must be carrying the Yellow gene. Furthermore to achieve this feat,
                this bird simultaneously carried a gene for Clearwing, Clearbody and
                Yellow. This is physically impossible under the current laws of
                genetics for multiple alleles can only exist in pairs of genes.

                If the multiple allele theory is incorrect as the above suggests,
                then a new theory was required and the following was derived by the
                author.

                THE NEW THEORY
                The Darkwing

                Breeding results obtained to date appear to show that the dark wing
                pattern of the Greywing Yellow is genetically passed on independent
                of others characteristics (eg body colour). As such I propose that
                the Greywing Yellow is actually a compound variety of Yellow and
                another unnamed dark wing pattern variety. For the sake of this
                article let us call this variety Darkwing.

                The explanation of the previously mentioned matings under the
                Darkwing theory is as follows.
                Darkwing(sf) Yellow x Clearwing/Yellow now gives the expectations:-
                25% Yellow, 25% Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf)Yellow, 25%
                Clearwing Darkwing(sf)/Yellow. This corresponds with breeding results
                to date.

                Using the Clearwing Darkwing(sf)/Yellow produced above test mated
                back to a Yellow the expectations are now:- 25% Yellow, 25%
                Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf)Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf)
                Clearwing/Yellow
                This also matches real breeding results to date."


                END OF EXTRACT ******************************


                Since this was written, ten years ago, hundreds of other birds have
                also been bred including Greywing Darkwing(sf)/Dilute and many other
                combinations with Normals, Spangles etc etc. Every single mating has
                conformed exactly to the Darkwing partial dominant modifier theory in
                my own aviary and the aviaries of others (some of whom have
                university education in genetics). In fact Terry Martin was the first
                to suggest to me that it would be better called a "modifier" gene.

                Hope this helps.
                Ken Yorke
                kyorke@...
                http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm



                --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, James Yangzon
                <jlyangzon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Good day Ken,
                >
                > I fell prey to anthropomorphism's venom, Mother Nature, you are
                right, is neither simple nor complicated. Mother Nature knows no
                simplicity or complexity! It is us just what it is.
                >
                > However, with due respect to you Ken and the others who validated
                the modifier model you have developed regarding the darkwing, I found
                an equally consistent system that may also explain how the darkwing
                works.
                >
                > Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family
                and is described as having a diluted body but retains an 'almost
                normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar,
                their multiple allellism can also explain the results of the breeding
                program you published in your website. Provided that we treat
                darkwing as dominant to dilute. The partial or incomplete dominance
                of the darkwing also fits with the hypothesis.
                >
                > The typical matings you published is as follows:
                >
                > SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing and 50% dilute
                >
                > SF darkwing dilute X Sf darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing dilute
                + 50% SF darkwing dilute + 25% dilute
                >
                > With multiple allelism, and darkwing being dominant to dilute,
                this becomes:
                >
                > SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing/dilute and 50%
                dilute
                >
                > SF darkwing dilute X SF darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing + 50%
                SF darkwing/dilute + 25% dilute
                >
                > When you factor the cinnamon gene in the equation, same principle
                apply and the result is the same. The only difference is that dilute
                can now be carried as a split when multiple allele with the darkwing.
                >
                > Inte Onsman have published an interesting findings regarding the
                dilute gene family. It has an order of dominance: Wildtype -
                Greywing - Clearwing - Dilute.
                >
                > I am not sure what you mean by a bird carrying 'three' allele at
                the same time as darkwing, clearwing and dilute. If what you mean by
                this is that the bird's offspring included a darkwing, clearwing and
                dilute, this can also be explained by multiple allelism hypothesis,
                provided that we treat clearwing as dominant to darkwing.
                >
                > The order of dominance would then be: Wildtype - Greywing -
                Clearwing - Darkwing - Dilute.
                >
                > I am not sure about the order of dominance between greywing and
                darkwing though as information is lacking on the subject.
                >
                > An example of a multiple allelic pairing, having clearwing as
                dominant to darkwing, that may yield an offspring of darkwing,
                clearwing and dilute would then be:
                >
                > SF darkwing/dilute X Clearwing/dilute = 25% clearwing/darkwing +
                25% SFdarkwing/dilute + 25% clearwing/dilute + 25% dilute
                >
                > Normals and other varieties would not be affected then simply
                because darkwing is carried as a split.
                >
                > Thanks and God bless.
                >
                > James L. Yangzon
                >
                > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
                > James,
                > Unfortunately Mother Nature is not always simple. The Darkwing gene
                > is ABSOLUTELY NOT a multiple allele of the Dilute locus. I have
                > proven this in test matings. Several people with formal university
                > training in genetics have reviewed my matings and theory and have
                > agreed with my conclusions (including one person who at first, like
                > you, thought it was a multiple allele so he duplicated my
                experiments
                > with his own birds and arrived at my conclusions as well)
                >
                > I have an article on my website on the darkwing including its
                > genetics at http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/p101.htm which I
                > think will answer your questions. This article and lots of photos
                etc
                > also appear in my "BUDGERIGAR VARIETY BIBLE"
                > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke.p413.htm .
                >
                > The short version of the explanation is that it is possible to
                create
                > a bird which has 3 different alleles at the same time. For example,
                > the bird carries a Darkwing gene, a Clearwing Gene and a Dilute
                gene
                > simultanously. This is not possible if the Darkwing gene is a
                > multiple allele of the Dilute locus. Any locus can only carry a
                > maximum of 2 alleles of any type, not 3. For the bird to carry 3
                > genes (which has proven possible) then one of the genes (i.e. the
                > Darkwing gene) must reside at a different locus.
                > Ken Yorke
                > kyorke@...
                > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
                >
                > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, James Yangzon
                > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Good day Ken,
                > >
                > > If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing
                > are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it
                as
                > a primary mutation in itself.
                > >
                > > We will assume for the time being that it is a primary mutation
                > and will consider all its features and see if it also fits in the
                > dilute genes scenario.
                > >
                > > As a primary mutation, it will be the 4th member of the dilute
                > gene family in budgerigar. It is described as having a dilute body
                > but retains ' an almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented
                > markings of the budgerigar.
                > >
                > > The explanation that the darkwing enhances foreground melanin
                > markings but on dilutes only is a bit complicated. This imply that
                > the gene can only act if the species already produced dilute
                mutation
                > (s), otherwise it is consigned to oblivion having no effect on
                other
                > varieties.
                > >
                > > A much simpler explanation is that darkwing is the 4th member of
                > the recessive dilute gene family but having partial or incomplete
                > dominance in inheritance when multiple allelic with the dilute
                locus.
                > >
                > > Dilutes, i.e., dilute, greywing and clearwing have interesting
                > interaction with each other. Darkwing would then be dominant to
                > dilutes (as texas clearbody to ino) but is, of course, recessive to
                > normals. It would then have no effect on normals simply because it
                > is carried as a 'split'.
                > >
                > > I am inclined to think that this view is not something new, I am
                > sure that before you came with the modifier model you already
                > consider the primary mutation hypothesis, and that your breeding
                > programs with the darkwing tend to support the former. Thus, I
                would
                > be grateful if you share with us the result of your breeding
                programs
                > which concluded that darkwing is indeed a modifier.
                > >
                > > Thanks and God bless.
                > >
                > > James L. Yangzon
                > >
                > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> wrote:
                > > The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet,
                > nor many other
                > > varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be
                > affected
                > > by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.
                > >
                > > In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
                > > difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference
                > from
                > > ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
                > > head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect
                Pied
                > > varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties
                do
                > > not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.
                > >
                > > It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this
                > has
                > > not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded
                variety
                > > itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
                > > complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
                > > Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing
                component
                > > from them.
                > >
                > > I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
                > > Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing
                (sf)
                > > Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon
                Dilutes
                > > and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
                > > (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).
                > >
                > > Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
                > > made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most
                striking
                > > visual combination and the only combination which has been
                > > standardised by the exhibtion societies.
                > >
                > > Ken Yorke
                > > kyorke@
                > > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
                > >
                > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, Stephane Tintin
                > > <tintin_montreal1972@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
                > > > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
                > > alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka
                > FullbodycolouredGreywings),
                > > Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
                > > other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
                > > Fallows ?
                > > >
                > > > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of
                wether
                > > the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
                > > albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
                > > >
                > > > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
                > > Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also
                display
                > > dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
                > > Parakeet.
                > > >
                > > > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
                > > modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
                > > neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine,
                > IRN,
                > > moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
                > > feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible
                throughout
                > > species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
                > > Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could
                > also
                > > be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
                > > >
                > > > Best regards,
                > > > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka
                > Tintin,
                > > > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
                > > >
                > > > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
                > > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
                > > >
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Feral_Naturalized_Parrots/
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rareparrots/
                > > >
                > > > http://fr.briefcase.yahoo.com/tintin_montreal1972
                > > >
                > > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/AvicultureCanadaFr/
                > > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Genetique_Psittacidae
                > > > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Grand-Alexandre/
                > > >
                http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perroquets_Etrangers_Naturalises/
                > > > http://cf.groups.yahoo.com/group/Perruche_ondulee
                > > > http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Psittacula/
                > > >
                > > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> a écrit :
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
                > > modifier gene in
                > > > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the
                Dilute
                > > > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the
                > dilute
                > > > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double
                > factor
                > > > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
                > > > Darkwings.
                > > >
                > > > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
                > > (read
                > > > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on
                > body
                > > > colour.
                > > >
                > > > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal
                green
                > > > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
                > > factor.
                > > >
                > > > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on
                Darkwings
                > > but
                > > > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte
                > could
                > > > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
                > > >
                > > > Ken Yorke
                > > > kyorke@
                > > > http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/kyorke/index.htm
                > > >
                > > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine@yahoogroups.com, "jlyangzon"
                > > > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Good day everyone,
                > > > >
                > > > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely
                > independent
                > > > of
                > > > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its
                > action
                > > > is
                > > > > expressed evidently?
                > > > >
                > > > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the
                > wildtype
                > > > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
                > > > >
                > > > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially
                those
                > > with
                > > > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
                > > > >
                > > > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
                > > > melanin
                > > > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
                > > > region
                > > > > only?
                > > > >
                > > > > thanks and God bless.
                > > > >
                > > > > James L. Yangzon
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever
                you're
                > surfing.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                >
              • James Yangzon
                Good day Ken and Terry, I appreciate the breeding results you have shared Ken, it will surely help others if the article is published again in your website,
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Good day Ken and Terry,
                   
                  I appreciate the breeding results you have shared Ken, it will surely help others if the article is published again in your website, and of course, the dilute and clearwing darkwing progenies cannot be explained by my alternate theory of multiple allelism.
                   
                  Terry was right, if the breeding results included the presence of dilutes, it debunked my theory outright.
                   
                  It would be very interesting to know how the modifier achieve the feat of reversing the dilution in the budgerigar's grey-pigmented markings. 
                   
                  Was it able to repair the damaged gene but has an effect only on the markings and tail or on the cortical areas and not on the whole body?  Somehow it was able to restore the function of  dendrites and myosine.  Geneticists, would usually say this is highly unlikely, but is not impossible.  If this is its action, restoring the function of the eumelanin's means of transport, then it follows that it will not have an effect on varieties other than those which displays a form of dilution.  Even fallows and fadeds will not be affected as they are considered albinistic in form. (Martin, T.,  A Guide to. . . pp. 238 - 241) 
                   
                  Maybe Inte could enlighten us on the result of his feather analysis made a few years ago.
                   
                  Thanks and God bless.
                   
                  James L. Yangzon
                   
                   


                  Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
                  Sorry to dissallusion you James, but it doesn't work.
                  By three genes I mean a bird which is Darkwing(sf) Clearwing/ Dilute
                  (This bird has been bred and test mated). Darkwing(df)
                  Clearwing/Dilute is also theoretically possible, i.e contains 4
                  genes. Such birds are physically impossible to exist under a multiple
                  allele theory.

                  You appear to be also under the misapprehension that the Darkwing
                  gene causes the yellow body colour. It does not. To get yellow body
                  colour the bird must have 2 dilute genes. Darkwing has no effect on
                  body colour no matter what variety it is combined with.

                  The matings I quoted in my article and you refer to are the ones I
                  suggested as the most commonly used and best to use to produce
                  Darkwing Dilutes. If one looks ONLY at these matings then yes , a
                  multiple allele theory would fit those particular matings, which is
                  exactly where we all were back in the 1980's and early 1990's. If you
                  go outside these matings and introduce other members of the multiple
                  allele family such as Greywing and/or Clearwing, then the multiple
                  allele theory for Darkwing fails miserably.

                  I will include a partial extract from an article I wrote back in
                  1997. I no longer display this article on my website as some other
                  parts of it (not shown) have been superceded. The extract shown below
                  explains just one of the matings done to disprove the multiple allele
                  theory. (N.B. where it refers to "Clearbody" it means "Darkwing" as
                  at that time the current multiple allele theory classed the proposed
                  4th allele as "Clearbody". The term "Greywing Yellow" is the old term
                  from the 1930's.)

                  EXTRACT BELOW ************ ********* ********* *

                  "As the birds were yellow in body colour with very dark wings the
                  term clearbody came into common use to describe the Greywing Yellow.
                  Hence the theory assumed a Clearbody gene was now a fourth member of
                  the Clearwing, Greywing and Yellow family. In this theory, The
                  clearbody (Greywing Yellow) gene was believed to be dominant over the
                  Yellow and recessive to normal. Its interaction with greywing and
                  clearwing was not known with any degree of certainty. Under this
                  theory double factor clearbodies and single factor clearbodies were
                  possible.

                  This multiple allele theory has survived for quite a number of years
                  and appeared reasonably accurate within the few types of matings
                  performed. However, for the breeder who goes beyond some of the
                  common matings, some "unexplained" youngsters do appear. This
                  suggests that the theory is not correct.

                  The author commenced a series of breeding experiments a few years ago
                  with the aim of testing the multiple allele theory. These experiments
                  are still not finished, but sufficient evidence has appeared to date
                  to suggest (if not prove) that the multiple allele theory is
                  incorrect.

                  A test mating of a Clearbody(sf) /Yellow x Clearwing/Yellow was made.
                  The expectations under the multiple allele theory should be:- 25%
                  Yellow, 25% Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Clearbody(sf) /Yellow, 25% Clearwing
                  Clearbody. (N.B. the Clearwing Clearbody is a bird which looks very
                  similar to a very dark greywing. It has the body colour of the
                  clearwing and the dark wing pattern of the clearbody.) Actual results
                  of this mating follow the theory.

                  However, when the Clearwing Clearbody produced above was test mated
                  back to a Yellow the multiple allele theory failed. The theoretical
                  expectations should be:- 50% Clearwing/Yellow, 50% Clearbody
                  (sf)/Yellow.
                  The actual results were:- Yellow, Clearwing Clearbody,
                  Clearwing/Yellow, Clearbody(sf) /Yellow. The first two progeny types
                  listed do not follow the theory and are impossible to achieve if the
                  theory is correct. In order to get Yellow progeny both parents had to
                  carry the Yellow gene. This means that the Clearwing Clearbody parent
                  must be carrying the Yellow gene. Furthermore to achieve this feat,
                  this bird simultaneously carried a gene for Clearwing, Clearbody and
                  Yellow. This is physically impossible under the current laws of
                  genetics for multiple alleles can only exist in pairs of genes.

                  If the multiple allele theory is incorrect as the above suggests,
                  then a new theory was required and the following was derived by the
                  author.

                  THE NEW THEORY
                  The Darkwing

                  Breeding results obtained to date appear to show that the dark wing
                  pattern of the Greywing Yellow is genetically passed on independent
                  of others characteristics (eg body colour). As such I propose that
                  the Greywing Yellow is actually a compound variety of Yellow and
                  another unnamed dark wing pattern variety. For the sake of this
                  article let us call this variety Darkwing.

                  The explanation of the previously mentioned matings under the
                  Darkwing theory is as follows.
                  Darkwing(sf) Yellow x Clearwing/Yellow now gives the expectations: -
                  25% Yellow, 25% Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf) Yellow, 25%
                  Clearwing Darkwing(sf) /Yellow. This corresponds with breeding results
                  to date.

                  Using the Clearwing Darkwing(sf) /Yellow produced above test mated
                  back to a Yellow the expectations are now:- 25% Yellow, 25%
                  Clearwing/Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf) Yellow, 25% Darkwing(sf)
                  Clearwing/Yellow
                  This also matches real breeding results to date."

                  END OF EXTRACT ************ ********* *********

                  Since this was written, ten years ago, hundreds of other birds have
                  also been bred including Greywing Darkwing(sf) /Dilute and many other
                  combinations with Normals, Spangles etc etc. Every single mating has
                  conformed exactly to the Darkwing partial dominant modifier theory in
                  my own aviary and the aviaries of others (some of whom have
                  university education in genetics). In fact Terry Martin was the first
                  to suggest to me that it would be better called a "modifier" gene.

                  Hope this helps.
                  Ken Yorke
                  kyorke@tpgi. com.au
                  http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm

                  --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, James Yangzon
                  <jlyangzon@. ..> wrote:
                  >
                  > Good day Ken,
                  >
                  > I fell prey to anthropomorphism' s venom, Mother Nature, you are
                  right, is neither simple nor complicated. Mother Nature knows no
                  simplicity or complexity! It is us just what it is.
                  >
                  > However, with due respect to you Ken and the others who validated
                  the modifier model you have developed regarding the darkwing, I found
                  an equally consistent system that may also explain how the darkwing
                  works.
                  >
                  > Assuming that the darkwing is the 4th member of the dilute family
                  and is described as having a diluted body but retains an 'almost
                  normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented markings of the budgerigar,
                  their multiple allellism can also explain the results of the breeding
                  program you published in your website. Provided that we treat
                  darkwing as dominant to dilute. The partial or incomplete dominance
                  of the darkwing also fits with the hypothesis.
                  >
                  > The typical matings you published is as follows:
                  >
                  > SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing and 50% dilute
                  >
                  > SF darkwing dilute X Sf darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing dilute
                  + 50% SF darkwing dilute + 25% dilute
                  >
                  > With multiple allelism, and darkwing being dominant to dilute,
                  this becomes:
                  >
                  > SF darkwing dilute X dilute = 50% SF darkwing/dilute and 50%
                  dilute
                  >
                  > SF darkwing dilute X SF darkwing dilute = 25% DF darkwing + 50%
                  SF darkwing/dilute + 25% dilute
                  >
                  > When you factor the cinnamon gene in the equation, same principle
                  apply and the result is the same. The only difference is that dilute
                  can now be carried as a split when multiple allele with the darkwing.
                  >
                  > Inte Onsman have published an interesting findings regarding the
                  dilute gene family. It has an order of dominance: Wildtype -
                  Greywing - Clearwing - Dilute.
                  >
                  > I am not sure what you mean by a bird carrying 'three' allele at
                  the same time as darkwing, clearwing and dilute. If what you mean by
                  this is that the bird's offspring included a darkwing, clearwing and
                  dilute, this can also be explained by multiple allelism hypothesis,
                  provided that we treat clearwing as dominant to darkwing.
                  >
                  > The order of dominance would then be: Wildtype - Greywing -
                  Clearwing - Darkwing - Dilute.
                  >
                  > I am not sure about the order of dominance between greywing and
                  darkwing though as information is lacking on the subject.
                  >
                  > An example of a multiple allelic pairing, having clearwing as
                  dominant to darkwing, that may yield an offspring of darkwing,
                  clearwing and dilute would then be:
                  >
                  > SF darkwing/dilute X Clearwing/dilute = 25% clearwing/darkwing +
                  25% SFdarkwing/dilute + 25% clearwing/dilute + 25% dilute
                  >
                  > Normals and other varieties would not be affected then simply
                  because darkwing is carried as a split.
                  >
                  > Thanks and God bless.
                  >
                  > James L. Yangzon
                  >
                  > Ken Yorke <kyorke@...> wrote:
                  > James,
                  > Unfortunately Mother Nature is not always simple. The Darkwing gene
                  > is ABSOLUTELY NOT a multiple allele of the Dilute locus. I have
                  > proven this in test matings. Several people with formal university
                  > training in genetics have reviewed my matings and theory and have
                  > agreed with my conclusions (including one person who at first, like
                  > you, thought it was a multiple allele so he duplicated my
                  experiments
                  > with his own birds and arrived at my conclusions as well)
                  >
                  > I have an article on my website on the darkwing including its
                  > genetics at http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ p101.htm which I
                  > think will answer your questions. This article and lots of photos
                  etc
                  > also appear in my "BUDGERIGAR VARIETY BIBLE"
                  > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke. p413.htm .
                  >
                  > The short version of the explanation is that it is possible to
                  create
                  > a bird which has 3 different alleles at the same time. For example,
                  > the bird carries a Darkwing gene, a Clearwing Gene and a Dilute
                  gene
                  > simultanously. This is not possible if the Darkwing gene is a
                  > multiple allele of the Dilute locus. Any locus can only carry a
                  > maximum of 2 alleles of any type, not 3. For the bird to carry 3
                  > genes (which has proven possible) then one of the genes (i.e. the
                  > Darkwing gene) must reside at a different locus.
                  > Ken Yorke
                  > kyorke@...
                  > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
                  >
                  > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, James Yangzon
                  > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good day Ken,
                  > >
                  > > If the varieties which are proven to be affected by the darkwing
                  > are the dilute gene family only, is it not feasible to consider it
                  as
                  > a primary mutation in itself.
                  > >
                  > > We will assume for the time being that it is a primary mutation
                  > and will consider all its features and see if it also fits in the
                  > dilute genes scenario.
                  > >
                  > > As a primary mutation, it will be the 4th member of the dilute
                  > gene family in budgerigar. It is described as having a dilute body
                  > but retains ' an almost normal' pigmentation on grey pigmented
                  > markings of the budgerigar.
                  > >
                  > > The explanation that the darkwing enhances foreground melanin
                  > markings but on dilutes only is a bit complicated. This imply that
                  > the gene can only act if the species already produced dilute
                  mutation
                  > (s), otherwise it is consigned to oblivion having no effect on
                  other
                  > varieties.
                  > >
                  > > A much simpler explanation is that darkwing is the 4th member of
                  > the recessive dilute gene family but having partial or incomplete
                  > dominance in inheritance when multiple allelic with the dilute
                  locus.
                  > >
                  > > Dilutes, i.e., dilute, greywing and clearwing have interesting
                  > interaction with each other. Darkwing would then be dominant to
                  > dilutes (as texas clearbody to ino) but is, of course, recessive to
                  > normals. It would then have no effect on normals simply because it
                  > is carried as a 'split'.
                  > >
                  > > I am inclined to think that this view is not something new, I am
                  > sure that before you came with the modifier model you already
                  > consider the primary mutation hypothesis, and that your breeding
                  > programs with the darkwing tend to support the former. Thus, I
                  would
                  > be grateful if you share with us the result of your breeding
                  programs
                  > which concluded that darkwing is indeed a modifier.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks and God bless.
                  > >
                  > > James L. Yangzon
                  > >
                  > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> wrote:
                  > > The Darkwing has not been combined with Fallow as yet,
                  > nor many other
                  > > varieties. To date the only varieties which are proven to be
                  > affected
                  > > by the Darkwing gene are Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing.
                  > >
                  > > In my own aviary I have also had Darkwing Normals (no visual
                  > > difference to Normal) and Darkwing Albino (no visual difference
                  > from
                  > > ordinary Albino). I have also had a Darkwing Dilute with a "pied"
                  > > head patch, which implies that DArkwing is unlikely to affect
                  Pied
                  > > varieties either. No surprises in any of this as these varieties
                  do
                  > > not have melanin "dilution" characteristics.
                  > >
                  > > It is theoretically possible that Faded may be affected but this
                  > has
                  > > not been tried and in fact would be difficult as the Faded
                  variety
                  > > itself has some variation in depth of melanin, plus the added
                  > > complication that many of the Fadeds in existence are actually
                  > > Greywing Faded and we are trying to weed out the Greywing
                  component
                  > > from them.
                  > >
                  > > I have bred Darkwing Dilutes in standard, Opaline, Spangle and
                  > > Cinnamon forms as well. The brown markings on Cinnamon Darkwing
                  (sf)
                  > > Dilutes are substantially darker than markings on Cinnamon
                  Dilutes
                  > > and Cinnamon Darkwing(df) Dilutes are darker brown again
                  > > (approximately equal to that of Cinnamon Greens).
                  > >
                  > > Apart from a genetic research point of view, very few matings are
                  > > made with Darkwings outside of Dilutes as this is the most
                  striking
                  > > visual combination and the only combination which has been
                  > > standardised by the exhibtion societies.
                  > >
                  > > Ken Yorke
                  > > kyorke@
                  > > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
                  > >
                  > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, Stephane Tintin
                  > > <tintin_montreal197 2@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hey Ken, Terry, Dirk & Every Birdie,
                  > > > is the Darkwing modifier only visible when combined with Dilute
                  > > alleles such as ClearwingsGreywings (aka
                  > FullbodycolouredGre ywings),
                  > > Greywings & Suffused ? Or isn't it also visible when combined to
                  > > other eumelanin altering/reducing mutations such as Cinnamon &
                  > > Fallows ?
                  > > >
                  > > > I am aware of Darkwinged Cinnamon specimens but unaware of
                  wether
                  > > the Darkwing modifier has ever been test-bred to other incomplete-
                  > > albinistic mutation such as Fallow mutations ???
                  > > >
                  > > > I suppose the Darkwing modifier could eventually occur amoungst
                  > > Platycercus spp. (Rosella Parakeets) since the latter also
                  display
                  > > dark mantle markings like that of the Budgerigar (aka Budgie)
                  > > Parakeet.
                  > > >
                  > > > I suppose it could also occur in other Parrot species where the
                  > > modifier would basically only become obvious in the dark beard or
                  > > neck-ring markings amoungst Psittacula spp. such as Alexandrine,
                  > IRN,
                  > > moustached Parakeets &/or throughout Parrot species in flight
                  > > feathers (where foreground eumelanin is the most visible
                  throughout
                  > > species) Where other eumelanin altering/reducing Albinistic &/or
                  > > Dilute mutations (i.e. Edged, Pastel, Pallid, Platinum...) could
                  > also
                  > > be altered by the Darkwing modifier...
                  > > >
                  > > > Best regards,
                  > > > Stéphane (MALE's name french equivalent of Stephen ;-) aka
                  > Tintin,
                  > > > Ruby Eyes Aviary.
                  > > >
                  > > > "You remain responsible, forever, for what you have tamed."
                  > > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry
                  > > >
                  > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Feral_ Naturalized_ Parrots/
                  > > > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rareparrot s/
                  > > >
                  > > > http://fr.briefcase .yahoo.com/ tintin_montreal1 972
                  > > >
                  > > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Aviculture CanadaFr/
                  > > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Genetique_ Psittacidae
                  > > > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Grand- Alexandre/
                  > > >
                  http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perroquets _Etrangers_ Naturalises/
                  > > > http://cf.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Perruche_ ondulee
                  > > > http://fr.groups. yahoo.com/ group/Psittacula /
                  > > >
                  > > > Ken Yorke <kyorke@> a écrit :
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The Darkwing gene is an autosomal partial dominant
                  > > modifier gene in
                  > > > budgerigars. It is definitely not a multiple allele of the
                  Dilute
                  > > > locus, but its expression just happens to interact with the
                  > dilute
                  > > > locus alleles (i.e. Dilute, Greywing and Clearwing). Double
                  > factor
                  > > > Darkwings have marginally darker markings than single factor
                  > > > Darkwings.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Darkwing gene affects all visible "grey pigmented" markings
                  > > (read
                  > > > foreground melanin) over the entire bird but has no effect on
                  > body
                  > > > colour.
                  > > >
                  > > > A Darkwing Green looks phenotypically identical to a Normal
                  green
                  > > > despite carrying the Darkwing gene in either single of double
                  > > factor.
                  > > >
                  > > > Inte did some feather cross sections a few years ago on
                  Darkwings
                  > > but
                  > > > no dramatic results were found to my knowledge. Perhaps Inte
                  > could
                  > > > enlighten us on his findings, if any.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ken Yorke
                  > > > kyorke@
                  > > > http://www2. tpg.com.au/ users/kyorke/ index.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In Genetics-Psittacine @yahoogroups. com, "jlyangzon"
                  > > > <jlyangzon@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Good day everyone,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I want to clarify if the darkwing locus is completely
                  > independent
                  > > > of
                  > > > > the dilute locus and it is just with dilute birds that its
                  > action
                  > > > is
                  > > > > expressed evidently?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If it acts independently, does the gene acts only on the
                  > wildtype
                  > > > > budgerigar's black markings or on the whole mantle?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If this locus appears on other parrot species, specially
                  those
                  > > with
                  > > > > green mantle, can we then expect a darker mantle?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > What makes the darkwing locus 'dark'? Was it an increase in
                  > > > melanin
                  > > > > or an alteration in the cloudy zone but limited to the mantle
                  > > > region
                  > > > > only?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > thanks and God bless.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > James L. Yangzon
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > > Le tout nouveau Yahoo! Courriel
                  > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > > Consultez vos fils RSS depuis votre boîte de réception.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever
                  you're
                  > surfing.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                  > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
                  >



                  Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
                  Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.