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Re: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output

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  • Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z
    I don t know what mods you re talking about... Really not sure why the input pad would be changed... Without knowing if the G59 is putting out the correct
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 5, 2011
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      I don't know what mods you're talking about...
      Really not sure why the input pad would be changed...
       
      Without knowing if the G59 is putting out the correct power to drive GPA10, it's difficult to say what's happening...
       
      were you able to set the driver and PA bias settings correctly?
       
      Have you checked that the correct band-pass filters are engaged for each band?
       
      Did you wind the driver and 2 PA output transformers exactly as described in the directions?
       
      I'd only guess that something is wrong with filters or more the PA output transformers..
       
      Do you have an oscilloscope?
       
      You mention some mods.. I am unaware of these, so if you're doing something other than the original design.... I wouldn't be much help...
      All I know is the design works well as is!
       
      Bruce
      kf1z
       
       
      Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:27 PM
      Subject: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output
       
       

      After assembling Phase 3 I wanted to check the output power. I used a SWR meter between GPA10 and dummy load. On 160m to 40m it displays 0.0W, on 10m 1.5W, on 6m 1.0W and on all other bands something around 0.1W. Also, on all bands above 40m the needle is jittering. This behaviour is independent of the mode.

      Before I started to build GPA10, i monitored the G59 output signal with a second receiver and i didn't notice an accordant behaviour. So I assume that G59 is ok.

      I did not install R4D and R6D and i changed R5D to 100R as described in AmpMods. R8D, R9D, R10D, C5D, C6D, C7D and L2D are not installed.

      I rechecked voltage at TP5 and at FB1D. They are correct and seem to be stable. Current consumption of GPA10 is 53mA while RX and 304mA while TX.

      Any ideas are appreciated.

      73 Thomas DD3KY






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    • g0izm
      Bruce - you should know which mods these are: see message #8090! Thomas I d be inclined to build the amp in it s basic configuration, debug it in that state &
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 5, 2011
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        Bruce - you should know which mods these are: see message #8090!

        Thomas

        I'd be inclined to build the amp in it's basic configuration, debug it in that state & then apply the mods later.

        That way you'll be able to isolate whether any problems are associated with the build itself rather than being in some way due to the circuit improvements you're trying to implement.

        Ian

        --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know what mods you're talking about...
        > Really not sure why the input pad would be changed...
        >
        > Without knowing if the G59 is putting out the correct power to drive GPA10, it's difficult to say what's happening...
        >
        > were you able to set the driver and PA bias settings correctly?
        >
        > Have you checked that the correct band-pass filters are engaged for each band?
        >
        > Did you wind the driver and 2 PA output transformers exactly as described in the directions?
        >
        > I'd only guess that something is wrong with filters or more the PA output transformers..
        >
        > Do you have an oscilloscope?
        >
        > You mention some mods.. I am unaware of these, so if you're doing something other than the original design.... I wouldn't be much help...
        > All I know is the design works well as is!
        >
        > Bruce
        > kf1z
        >
        >
        > From: Detonator Iii
        > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:27 PM
        > To: GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output
        >
        >
        > After assembling Phase 3 I wanted to check the output power. I used a SWR meter between GPA10 and dummy load. On 160m to 40m it displays 0.0W, on 10m 1.5W, on 6m 1.0W and on all other bands something around 0.1W. Also, on all bands above 40m the needle is jittering. This behaviour is independent of the mode.
        >
        > Before I started to build GPA10, i monitored the G59 output signal with a second receiver and i didn't notice an accordant behaviour. So I assume that G59 is ok.
        >
        > I did not install R4D and R6D and i changed R5D to 100R as described in AmpMods. R8D, R9D, R10D, C5D, C6D, C7D and L2D are not installed.
        >
        > I rechecked voltage at TP5 and at FB1D. They are correct and seem to be stable. Current consumption of GPA10 is 53mA while RX and 304mA while TX.
        >
        > Any ideas are appreciated.
        >
        > 73 Thomas DD3KY
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z
        Yes, ok, I converted the file to pdf, and uploaded it.. I had forgotten ... Maybe I ll go read it now.. I remember something about a slight increase in IMD ,
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 6, 2011
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          Yes, ok, I converted the file to pdf, and uploaded it..
           
          I had forgotten ... Maybe I'll go read it now..
          I remember something about a slight increase in IMD , but at the time
          it was uninteresting to me.
           
          And Ian yes, my thoughts exactly.
          Thomas didn't mention whether he had already built and tested the amp before applying mods.
          ( other than the needed mods for the SWR pickup section of course)
           
           
          Bruce
           
           
          From: g0izm
          Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 1:14 AM
          Subject: [GenesisRadio] Re: GPA10 driver output
           
           



          Bruce - you should know which mods these are: see message #8090!

          Thomas

          I'd be inclined to build the amp in it's basic configuration, debug it in that state & then apply the mods later.

          That way you'll be able to isolate whether any problems are associated with the build itself rather than being in some way due to the circuit improvements you're trying to implement.

          Ian

          --- In mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@...> wrote:

          >
          > I don't know what
          mods you're talking about...
          > Really not sure why the input pad would be
          changed...
          >
          > Without knowing if the G59 is putting out the
          correct power to drive GPA10, it's difficult to say what's happening...
          >
          > were you able to set the driver and PA bias settings correctly?
          >
          > Have you checked that the correct band-pass filters are engaged for
          each band?
          >
          > Did you wind the driver and 2 PA output transformers
          exactly as described in the directions?
          >
          > I'd only guess that
          something is wrong with filters or more the PA output transformers..
          >
          > Do you have an oscilloscope?
          >
          > You mention some mods.. I
          am unaware of these, so if you're doing something other than the original design.... I wouldn't be much help...
          > All I know is the design works
          well as is!
          >
          > Bruce
          > kf1z
          >
          >
          > From:
          Detonator Iii
          > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:27 PM
          > To:
          href="mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output
          >
          >
          >
          After assembling Phase 3 I wanted to check the output power. I used a SWR meter between GPA10 and dummy load. On 160m to 40m it displays 0.0W, on 10m 1.5W, on 6m 1.0W and on all other bands something around 0.1W. Also, on all bands above 40m the needle is jittering. This behaviour is independent of the mode.
          >
          > Before I started to build GPA10, i monitored the G59 output signal with
          a second receiver and i didn't notice an accordant behaviour. So I assume that G59 is ok.
          >
          > I did not install R4D and R6D and i changed R5D to
          100R as described in AmpMods. R8D, R9D, R10D, C5D, C6D, C7D and L2D are not installed.
          >
          > I rechecked voltage at TP5 and at FB1D. They are
          correct and seem to be stable. Current consumption of GPA10 is 53mA while RX and 304mA while TX.
          >
          > Any ideas are appreciated.
          >
          > 73
          Thomas DD3KY
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • g0izm
          Well - it s got me interested anyway. I ve never like the idea of saturating output ferrites with dc so I m going to give it a go. Shame I only have one spare
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 6, 2011
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            Well - it's got me interested anyway. I've never like the idea of saturating output ferrites with dc so I'm going to give it a go.

            Shame I only have one spare core to hand: I've had to order a couple more (don't want to strip the existing ones just in case).

            Watch this space...

            Ian

            --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yes, ok, I converted the file to pdf, and uploaded it..
            >
            > I had forgotten ... Maybe I'll go read it now..
            > I remember something about a slight increase in IMD , but at the time
            > it was uninteresting to me.
            >
            > And Ian yes, my thoughts exactly.
            > Thomas didn't mention whether he had already built and tested the amp before applying mods.
            > ( other than the needed mods for the SWR pickup section of course)
            > Bruce
            > From: g0izm
            > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 1:14 AM
            > To: GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [GenesisRadio] Re: GPA10 driver output
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Bruce - you should know which mods these are: see message #8090!
            >
            > Thomas
            >
            > I'd be inclined to build the amp in it's basic configuration, debug it in that state & then apply the mods later.
            >
            > That way you'll be able to isolate whether any problems are associated with the build itself rather than being in some way due to the circuit improvements you're trying to implement.
            >
            > Ian
            >
            > --- In mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I don't know what mods you're talking about...
            > > Really not sure why the input pad would be changed...
            > >
            > > Without knowing if the G59 is putting out the correct power to drive GPA10, it's difficult to say what's happening...
            > >
            > > were you able to set the driver and PA bias settings correctly?
            > >
            > > Have you checked that the correct band-pass filters are engaged for each band?
            > >
            > > Did you wind the driver and 2 PA output transformers exactly as described in the directions?
            > >
            > > I'd only guess that something is wrong with filters or more the PA output transformers..
            > >
            > > Do you have an oscilloscope?
            > >
            > > You mention some mods.. I am unaware of these, so if you're doing something other than the original design.... I wouldn't be much help...
            > > All I know is the design works well as is!
            > >
            > > Bruce
            > > kf1z
            > >
            > >
            > > From: Detonator Iii
            > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:27 PM
            > > To: mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output
            > >
            > >
            > > After assembling Phase 3 I wanted to check the output power. I used a SWR meter between GPA10 and dummy load. On 160m to 40m it displays 0.0W, on 10m 1.5W, on 6m 1.0W and on all other bands something around 0.1W. Also, on all bands above 40m the needle is jittering. This behaviour is independent of the mode.
            > >
            > > Before I started to build GPA10, i monitored the G59 output signal with a second receiver and i didn't notice an accordant behaviour. So I assume that G59 is ok.
            > >
            > > I did not install R4D and R6D and i changed R5D to 100R as described in AmpMods. R8D, R9D, R10D, C5D, C6D, C7D and L2D are not installed.
            > >
            > > I rechecked voltage at TP5 and at FB1D. They are correct and seem to be stable. Current consumption of GPA10 is 53mA while RX and 304mA while TX.
            > >
            > > Any ideas are appreciated.
            > >
            > > 73 Thomas DD3KY
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > =======
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            > >
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z
            Boy. I did not pay attention at all, did I ? Just realized this was the driver only... Not the entire PA and BPFs. It would be handy if you have an
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 6, 2011
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              Boy. I did not pay attention at all, did I ?  Smile
               
              Just realized this was the driver only...
              Not the entire PA and BPFs.
               
              It would be handy if you have an oscilloscope to check output of G59 through to the driver.
               
              It doesn't make much sense to me that you would see no output on some bands,
              unless there is a wrong capacitor in the driver section.
               
              And even then, seems like the results would be opposite of what you see ( 160-40 good, higher freqs bad)
               
              Some have reported bad results when testing just the driver, with no filters...
              Results were somewhat different than yours however.
               
               
              Have you done the soundcard output voltage calibration, and tried to use PA gain settings to increase power on 160-40?
               
              Another thought would be, for now, install The correct resistors for R4, R5, and R6D.
               
              Bruce
              kf1z
               
               
              Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 7:27 PM
              Subject: [GenesisRadio] GPA10 driver output
               
               

              After assembling Phase 3 I wanted to check the output power. I used a SWR meter between GPA10 and dummy load. On 160m to 40m it displays 0.0W, on 10m 1.5W, on 6m 1.0W and on all other bands something around 0.1W. Also, on all bands above 40m the needle is jittering. This behaviour is independent of the mode.

              Before I started to build GPA10, i monitored the G59 output signal with a second receiver and i didn't notice an accordant behaviour. So I assume that G59 is ok.

              I did not install R4D and R6D and i changed R5D to 100R as described in AmpMods. R8D, R9D, R10D, C5D, C6D, C7D and L2D are not installed.

              I rechecked voltage at TP5 and at FB1D. They are correct and seem to be stable. Current consumption of GPA10 is 53mA while RX and 304mA while TX.

              Any ideas are appreciated.

              73 Thomas DD3KY






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            • Detonator Iii
              Thanks for your replies Ian and Bruce. I just built Phase 1-3, there is no PA and no filter yet. Bias at TP5 is adjusted to 4,30V and I did the soundcard
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 6, 2011
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                Thanks for your replies Ian and Bruce.

                I just built Phase 1-3, there is no PA and no filter yet. Bias at TP5 is adjusted to 4,30V and I did the soundcard output voltage calibration.

                Today I installed R4D and R6D and I changed R5D to 10R as in the original documentation. Now I have the following:
                160m: 0mW
                80m: 0mW
                60m: 0mW
                40m: 0mW
                30m: 10mW
                20m: 20mW
                17m: 40mW
                15m: 100mW
                12m: 200mW
                10m: 1,3W
                6m: 800mW
                Again the output seems to be unstable, the needle of the SWR meter is jittering on all bands above 40m.

                I changed the PA gain settings on 160m to 40m to 30dB and now I get 0mW on 160m, 10mW on 80m, 20mW on 60m and 30mW on 40m. Decreasing PA gain increases output power, but it is far away from 1W to 1.5W.

                Unfortunately I have no oscilloscope, but I could borrow another transceiver which also produces 10mW output. So I connected GPA10 to this transceiver and tested again. Now i have the following:
                160m: 0mW
                80m: 0mW
                60m: 0mW
                30m: 10mW
                20m: 10mW
                17m: 100mW
                15m: 500mW
                12m: 270mW
                10m: 60mW
                This transceiver can not transmit on 6m. On all bands the output is stable, the needle of the SWR meter does not jitter.

                So I guess there must be 2 different issues: the strange output power of the driver and the output signal of G59 is not stable.

                73 Thomas DD3KY



                --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@...> wrote:
                >
                > Boy. I did not pay attention at all, did I ?
                >
                > Just realized this was the driver only...
                > Not the entire PA and BPFs.
                >
                > It would be handy if you have an oscilloscope to check output of G59 through to the driver.
                >
                > It doesn't make much sense to me that you would see no output on some bands,
                > unless there is a wrong capacitor in the driver section.
                >
                > And even then, seems like the results would be opposite of what you see ( 160-40 good, higher freqs bad)
                >
                > Some have reported bad results when testing just the driver, with no filters...
                > Results were somewhat different than yours however.
                >
                >
                > Have you done the soundcard output voltage calibration, and tried to use PA gain settings to increase power on 160-40?
                >
                > Another thought would be, for now, install The correct resistors for R4, R5, and R6D.
                >
                > Bruce
                > kf1z
                >
              • Gil Cross
                Hi, wondering if you have checked the bias voltage at the driver while transmitting      Gil ________________________________ From: Detonator Iii
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 6, 2011
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                  Hi, wondering if you have checked the bias voltage at the driver while transmitting      Gil


                  From: Detonator Iii <detonator_iii@...>
                  To: GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 7:23 PM
                  Subject: [GenesisRadio] Re: GPA10 driver output

                   


                  Thanks for your replies Ian and Bruce.

                  I just built Phase 1-3, there is no PA and no filter yet. Bias at TP5 is adjusted to 4,30V and I did the soundcard output voltage calibration.

                  Today I installed R4D and R6D and I changed R5D to 10R as in the original documentation. Now I have the following:
                  160m: 0mW
                  80m: 0mW
                  60m: 0mW
                  40m: 0mW
                  30m: 10mW
                  20m: 20mW
                  17m: 40mW
                  15m: 100mW
                  12m: 200mW
                  10m: 1,3W
                  6m: 800mW
                  Again the output seems to be unstable, the needle of the SWR meter is jittering on all bands above 40m.

                  I changed the PA gain settings on 160m to 40m to 30dB and now I get 0mW on 160m, 10mW on 80m, 20mW on 60m and 30mW on 40m. Decreasing PA gain increases output power, but it is far away from 1W to 1.5W.

                  Unfortunately I have no oscilloscope, but I could borrow another transceiver which also produces 10mW output. So I connected GPA10 to this transceiver and tested again. Now i have the following:
                  160m: 0mW
                  80m: 0mW
                  60m: 0mW
                  30m: 10mW
                  20m: 10mW
                  17m: 100mW
                  15m: 500mW
                  12m: 270mW
                  10m: 60mW
                  This transceiver can not transmit on 6m. On all bands the output is stable, the needle of the SWR meter does not jitter.

                  So I guess there must be 2 different issues: the strange output power of the driver and the output signal of G59 is not stable.

                  73 Thomas DD3KY

                  --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z" <kf1z@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Boy. I did not pay attention at all, did I ?
                  >
                  > Just realized this was the driver only...
                  > Not the entire PA and BPFs.
                  >
                  > It would be handy if you have an oscilloscope to check output of G59 through to the driver.
                  >
                  > It doesn't make much sense to me that you would see no output on some bands,
                  > unless there is a wrong capacitor in the driver section.
                  >
                  > And even then, seems like the results would be opposite of what you see ( 160-40 good, higher freqs bad)
                  >
                  > Some have reported bad results when testing just the driver, with no filters...
                  > Results were somewhat different than yours however.
                  >
                  >
                  > Have you done the soundcard output voltage calibration, and tried to use PA gain settings to increase power on 160-40?
                  >
                  > Another thought would be, for now, install The correct resistors for R4, R5, and R6D.
                  >
                  > Bruce
                  > kf1z
                  >



                • Detonator Iii
                  I have checked the bias voltage at TP5 while transmitting. It is 4.30V on every band. I checked all components in this section but they are all ok. I also
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 7, 2011
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                    I have checked the bias voltage at TP5 while transmitting. It is 4.30V on every band.

                    I checked all components in this section but they are all ok. I also reheated each component to rule out cold soldering connections but it didn't help.

                    Seems to me that there is something like a high order HP filter. The output power is very low on lower bands, only 200mW on 12m but 1.3W on 10m. But this also seems to be a problem of my G59. When I use the other transceiver, there is no such abrupt rise of power between 2 adjacent bands. The output power is just much lower than it should be. Is it reasonable to use something like a driver for the driver? There are some markings for components not in the list on the PCB and one looks like a solder pad for an ERA.

                    I'm thinking about the instability of the G59 output signal. When I press the TUN button the needle of the SWR meter jitters. When I press the MOX button the output power is much lower and the needle does not jitter. I have no idea what could cause the instability.

                    73 Thomas DD3KY


                    --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, Gil Cross <orclig1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, wondering if you have checked the bias voltage at the driver while transmitting  Gil
                    >
                  • Bruce Greenleaf KF1Z
                    Check the relay too... And the driver transformer. etc... You will NOT need another driver ( pre-driver) the 10mw that G59 puts out is MORE than enough to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 7, 2011
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                      Check the relay too...
                      And the driver transformer. etc...
                       
                      You will NOT need another driver ( pre-driver)
                       
                      the 10mw that G59 puts out is MORE than enough to driver GPA10 to MORE than it's
                      rated 10watts.
                       
                      Something is wrong...
                       
                      Your driver transistor may be bad...
                      Try changing it out with one for the PA section.
                       
                       
                      Can you email me or post some nice closeup pictures?
                       
                      Bruce
                       
                       
                      Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 5:54 PM
                      Subject: [GenesisRadio] Re: GPA10 driver output
                       
                       



                      I have checked the bias voltage at TP5 while transmitting. It is 4.30V on every band.

                      I checked all components in this section but they are all ok. I also reheated each component to rule out cold soldering connections but it didn't help..

                      Seems to me that there is something like a high order HP filter. The output power is very low on lower bands, only 200mW on 12m but 1.3W on 10m. But this also seems to be a problem of my G59. When I use the other transceiver, there is no such abrupt rise of power between 2 adjacent bands. The output power is just much lower than it should be. Is it reasonable to use something like a driver for the driver? There are some markings for components not in the list on the PCB and one looks like a solder pad for an ERA.

                      I'm thinking about the instability of the G59 output signal. When I press the TUN button the needle of the SWR meter jitters. When I press the MOX button the output power is much lower and the needle does not jitter. I have no idea what could cause the instability.

                      73 Thomas DD3KY

                      --- In mailto:GenesisRadio%40yahoogroups.com, Gil Cross <orclig1@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Hi, wondering if you have
                      checked the bias voltage at the driver while transmitting  Gil
                      >






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                    • yt7pwr2002
                      Thomas, can you send database.xml from GSDR folder to yt7pwr@ptt.rs 73 yt7pwr
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 8, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thomas,
                        can you send database.xml from GSDR folder to yt7pwr@...


                        73 yt7pwr


                        --- In GenesisRadio@yahoogroups.com, "Detonator Iii" <detonator_iii@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I have checked the bias voltage at TP5 while transmitting. It is 4.30V on every band.
                        >
                        > I checked all components in this section but they are all ok. I also reheated each component to rule out cold soldering connections but it didn't help.
                        >
                        > Seems to me that there is something like a high order HP filter. The output power is very low on lower bands, only 200mW on 12m but 1.3W on 10m. But this also seems to be a problem of my G59. When I use the other transceiver, there is no such abrupt rise of power between 2 adjacent bands. The output power is just much lower than it should be. Is it reasonable to use something like a driver for the driver? There are some markings for components not in the list on the PCB and one looks like a solder pad for an ERA.
                        >
                        > I'm thinking about the instability of the G59 output signal. When I press the TUN button the needle of the SWR meter jitters. When I press the MOX button the output power is much lower and the needle does not jitter. I have no idea what could cause the instability.
                        >
                        > 73 Thomas DD3KY
                        >
                        >
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