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Re: Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

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  • j s
    I guess many might have thought they were those long lost relatives wanting to cash in regardless of the truth. I dont support their decision but I guess I m
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
      I guess many might have thought they were
      those "long lost relatives" wanting
      to cash in regardless of the truth.
      I dont support their decision but I
      guess I'm just trying to see all sides.

      multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:

      Jeff wrote:

      <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
      with no indian identity, experience or interest
      who wanted their entitled share.">>>



      My reply:

      Hi Jeff,

      Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
      always appreciated and is good food for thought.

      The only problem here, however, is that
      this analogy does not apply to the
      situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

      The majority of The Freedmen have
      been repeatedly proven to be the known
      Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
      'descendents of the people who were originally
      slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
      era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
      became members of and absorbed into the
      tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
      became referred to as being The Freedmen.

      Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
      lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
      have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
      heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

      As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
      a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
      certainly have more connection to and shared
      heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
      of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
      up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
      'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
      family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
      other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
      and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
      or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

      Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
      'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
      the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
      of the tribe and they have shared in little or
      none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
      'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
      realized that casino money could be involved.

      Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
      in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
      Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
      largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

      Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
      -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
      (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
      thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
      order to, yet again, deny the people who have
      any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
      the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

      It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
      -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
      caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
      step against the very Freedmen who have been
      an active, important and functioning part of 
      the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

      The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
      long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
      up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
      of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

      They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
      full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
      not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
      and racism-embracing acceptance of the
      racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
      to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
      (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
      -- would never have even been an issue.

      The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
      in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
      is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
      that which was taken by White-Supremacist
      Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

      Just a thought.
      Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

      --M


      P.S.

      A good book and film on the subject
      of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
      'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


      Related Links:

      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562


       In Generation-Mixed@ yahoogroups. com,
      j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


      Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
      just joined since it appears that there were only
      800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

      I guess it's also another "invalidation"
      of
      African-Americans historical
      Native-American ties and lineage.

      But I think besides racism
      it also came down to greed.

      But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
      with no indian identity, experience or
      interest who wanted their entitled share.

      This is just one reason why I have no real interest
      in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
      because I'm sure one would really have to jump
      through hoops in what is basically a political process.

      Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
      it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

      So many of us are of indian descent
      but will never have the "right" to
      claim it in this society without recieving
      snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
      without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


      lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


      Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


      Cherokee Nation members voted
      Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
      the tribal citizenship of the
      descendants of the people the
      Cherokee once owned as slaves.



      http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

    • multiracialbookclub
      That s true ... Jeff! You do have a good knack for looking at all sides of an issue -- and it s really appreciated. [:)] As noted, it s really good food for
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

        That's true ... Jeff!

        You do have a good knack for looking at all
        sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

        As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

        --- M



         j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


        I guess many might have thought they were
        those "long lost relatives" wanting
        to cash in regardless of the truth.
        I dont support their decision but I
        guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


        'multiracialbookclub'  wrote:


        Jeff wrote:

        <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
        with no indian identity, experience or interest
        who wanted their entitled share.">>>



        My reply:

        Hi Jeff,

        Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
        always appreciated and is good food for thought.

        The only problem here, however, is that
        this analogy does not apply to the
        situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

        The majority of The Freedmen have
        been repeatedly proven to be the known
        Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
        'descendents of the people who were originally
        slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
        era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
        became members of and absorbed into the
        tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
        became referred to as being The Freedmen.

        Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
        lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
        have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
        heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

        As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
        a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
        certainly have more connection to and shared
        heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
        of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
        up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
        'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
        family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
        other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
        and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
        or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

        Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
        'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
        the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
        of the tribe and they have shared in little or
        none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
        'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
        realized that casino money could be involved.

        Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
        in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
        Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
        largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

        Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
        -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
        (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
        thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
        order to, yet again, deny the people who have
        any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
        the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

        It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
        -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
        caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
        step against the very Freedmen who have been
        an active, important and functioning part of 
        the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

        The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
        long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
        up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
        of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

        They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
        full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
        not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
        and racism-embracing acceptance of the
        racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
        to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
        (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
        -- would never have even been an issue.

        The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
        in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
        is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
        that which was taken by White-Supremacist
        Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

        Just a thought.
        Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

        --M


        P.S.

        A good book and film on the subject
        of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
        'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


        Related Links:

        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
        http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 


         j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


        Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
        just joined since it appears that there were only
        800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

        I guess it's also another "invalidation"
        of
        African-Americans historical
        Native-American ties and lineage.

        But I think besides racism
        it also came down to greed.

        But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
        if all of a sudden there were people who joined
        with no indian identity, experience or
        interest who wanted their entitled share.

        This is just one reason why I have no real interest
        in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
        because I'm sure one would really have to jump
        through hoops in what is basically a political process.

        Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
        it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

        So many of us are of indian descent
        but will never have the "right" to
        claim it in this society without recieving
        snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
        without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


        lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


        Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


        Cherokee Nation members voted
        Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
        the tribal citizenship of the
        descendants of the people the
        Cherokee once owned as slaves.



        http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

      • j s
        If I was a freedman s descendant I think I would no longer want to be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face. multiracialbookclub
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
          If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
          be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:

          That's true ... Jeff!

          You do have a good knack for looking at all
          sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

          As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

          --- M



           j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


          I guess many might have thought they were
          those "long lost relatives" wanting
          to cash in regardless of the truth.
          I dont support their decision but I
          guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


          'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


          Jeff wrote:

          <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
          with no indian identity, experience or interest
          who wanted their entitled share.">>>



          My reply:

          Hi Jeff,

          Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
          always appreciated and is good food for thought.

          The only problem here, however, is that
          this analogy does not apply to the
          situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

          The majority of The Freedmen have
          been repeatedly proven to be the known
          Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
          'descendents of the people who were originally
          slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
          era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
          became members of and absorbed into the
          tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
          became referred to as being The Freedmen.

          Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
          lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
          have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
          heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

          As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
          a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
          certainly have more connection to and shared
          heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
          of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
          up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
          'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
          family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
          other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
          and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
          or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

          Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
          'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
          the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
          of the tribe and they have shared in little or
          none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
          'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
          realized that casino money could be involved.

          Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
          in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
          Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
          largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

          Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
          -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
          (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
          thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
          order to, yet again, deny the people who have
          any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
          the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

          It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
          -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
          caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
          step against the very Freedmen who have been
          an active, important and functioning part of 
          the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

          The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
          long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
          up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
          of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

          They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
          full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
          not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
          and racism-embracing acceptance of the
          racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
          to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
          (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
          -- would never have even been an issue.

          The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
          in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
          is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
          that which was taken by White-Supremacist
          Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

          Just a thought.
          Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

          --M


          P.S.

          A good book and film on the subject
          of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
          'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


          Related Links:

          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 


           j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


          Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
          just joined since it appears that there were only
          800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

          I guess it's also another "invalidation"
          of
          African-Americans historical
          Native-American ties and lineage.

          But I think besides racism
          it also came down to greed.

          But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
          with no indian identity, experience or
          interest who wanted their entitled share.

          This is just one reason why I have no real interest
          in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
          because I'm sure one would really have to jump
          through hoops in what is basically a political process.

          Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
          it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

          So many of us are of indian descent
          but will never have the "right" to
          claim it in this society without recieving
          snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
          without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


          lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


          Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


          Cherokee Nation members voted
          Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
          the tribal citizenship of the
          descendants of the people the
          Cherokee once owned as slaves.



          http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/

        • Heather Stimmel
          Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening. I remember reading on their
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
            Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend
            to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
            I remember reading on their website (Cherokee) the qualifications
            you need to be officially registered within the Cherokee tribe,
            so this is not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
            The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain fraction-
            can't remember what it was, but it seemed a little ridiculous
            at the time) that you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
            Indian, than they will not officially recognize a person as a Cherokee.
            The reason I know this is, because... my son
            is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
            I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, to little avail.
            It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they can actually "expel"
            members they officially accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
            That's what I don't get???!
            Heather

            Related Link:

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2566
          • multiracialbookclub
            Jeff wrote: If I was a freedman s descendant I think I would no longer want to be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face. My Reply:
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
              Jeff wrote:

              If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
              be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

              My Reply:

              Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
              a good point in this food for thought about
              what could be the initial emotional responses
              that anyone would feel after having been
              treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

              That having been said, I feel I have to add that
              I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
              so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
              the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
              struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
              – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
              and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
              go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
              to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

              Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
              Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
              their own would make them feel that their past
              efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

              It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
              of the
              African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
              to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
              and after World War I – wherein they were said to
              have been treated a lot better than they were treated
              in The States – but, due to what they and their
              ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
              were generally not willing to give up their
              American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

              Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
              work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
              treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
              part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
              which provided these benefits to both the
              AAs and 
              other citizens and residents of the country as well.


              It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
              historical and familial ties that cause people to just
              want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

              Just a thought.

              Have a great day.

              -- M

              Related Links:


              http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
              http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
              http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
              http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/



              j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


              If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
              be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


              multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



              That's true ... Jeff!

              You do have a good knack for looking at all
              sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

              As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

              --- M



               j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


              I guess many might have thought they were
              those "long lost relatives" wanting
              to cash in regardless of the truth.
              I dont support their decision but I
              guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


              'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


              Jeff wrote:


              <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
              with no indian identity, experience or interest
              who wanted their entitled share.">>>



              My reply:


              Hi Jeff,

              Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
              always appreciated and is good food for thought.

              The only problem here, however, is that
              this analogy does not apply to the
              situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

              The majority of The Freedmen have
              been repeatedly proven to be the known
              Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
              'descendents of the people who were originally
              slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
              era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
              became members of and absorbed into the
              tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
              became referred to as being The Freedmen.

              Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
              lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
              have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
              heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

              As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
              a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
              certainly have more connection to and shared
              heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
              of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
              up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
              'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
              family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
              other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
              and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
              or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

              Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
              'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
              the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
              of the tribe and they have shared in little or
              none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
              'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
              realized that casino money could be involved.

              Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
              in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
              Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
              largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

              Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
              -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
              (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
              thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
              order to, yet again, deny the people who have
              any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
              the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

              It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
              -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
              caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
              step against the very Freedmen who have been
              an active, important and functioning part of 
              the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

              The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
              long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
              up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
              of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

              They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
              full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
              not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
              and racism-embracing acceptance of the
              racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
              to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
              (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
              -- would never have even been an issue.

              The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
              in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
              is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
              that which was taken by White-Supremacist
              Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

              Just a thought.
              Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

              --M


              P.S.

              A good book and film on the subject
              of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
              'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


              Related Links:

              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



               j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


              Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
              just joined since it appears that there were only
              800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

              I guess it's also another "invalidation"
              of
              African-Americans historical
              Native-American ties and lineage.

              But I think besides racism
              it also came down to greed.

              But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
              if all of a sudden there were people who joined
              with no indian identity, experience or
              interest who wanted their entitled share.

              This is just one reason why I have no real interest
              in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
              because I'm sure one would really have to jump
              through hoops in what is basically a political process.

              Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
              it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

              So many of us are of indian descent
              but will never have the "right" to
              claim it in this society without recieving
              snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
              without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


              lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


              Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


              Cherokee Nation members voted
              Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
              the tribal citizenship of the
              descendants of the people the
              Cherokee once owned as slaves.



              http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
            • j s
              I guess since I recall the article said that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways. I feel worse for the
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                I guess since I recall the article said
                that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.
                 
                The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.
                 
                 
                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:
                Jeff wrote:

                If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                My Reply:

                Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                a good point in this food for thought about
                what could be the initial emotional responses
                that anyone would feel after having been
                treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                their own would make them feel that their past
                efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                of the
                African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                in The States – but, due to what they and their
                ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                were generally not willing to give up their
                American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                which provided these benefits to both the
                AAs and 
                other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                Just a thought.

                Have a great day.

                -- M

                Related Links:


                http://www.afrigene as.com/forume/ index.cgi? noframes; read=9923
                http://news. newamericamedia. org/news/ view_article. html?article_ id=875400ddf2fb8 fcadc8910f36e174 e8a 
                http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/ History.htm
                http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/



                j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@hotmail. com> wrote:



                That's true ... Jeff!

                You do have a good knack for looking at all
                sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                --- M



                 j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                I guess many might have thought they were
                those "long lost relatives" wanting
                to cash in regardless of the truth.
                I dont support their decision but I
                guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                'multiracialbookclu b'  wrote:


                Jeff wrote:


                <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                with no indian identity, experience or interest
                who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                My reply:


                Hi Jeff,

                Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                The only problem here, however, is that
                this analogy does not apply to the
                situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                The majority of The Freedmen have
                been repeatedly proven to be the known
                Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                'descendents of the people who were originally
                slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                became members of and absorbed into the
                tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                certainly have more connection to and shared
                heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                realized that casino money could be involved.

                Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                step against the very Freedmen who have been
                an active, important and functioning part of 
                the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                -- would never have even been an issue.

                The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                Just a thought.
                Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                --M


                P.S.

                A good book and film on the subject
                of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                Related Links:

                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                 j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                just joined since it appears that there were only
                800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                of
                African-Americans historical
                Native-American ties and lineage.

                But I think besides racism
                it also came down to greed.

                But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                with no indian identity, experience or
                interest who wanted their entitled share.

                This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                So many of us are of indian descent
                but will never have the "right" to
                claim it in this society without recieving
                snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                Cherokee Nation members voted
                Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                the tribal citizenship of the
                descendants of the people the
                Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/


                Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

              • j s
                Plus they base their membership on records made by White government workers, kind of like some blacks today accepting the slave masters one-drop rule. It s
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                  Plus they base their membership on records
                  made by White government workers, kind
                  of like some "blacks" today accepting
                  the slave masters one-drop rule.

                  It's all about money I think.

                  Not my kind of club.

                  Heather Stimmel <heather21230@...> wrote:

                  Yeah, I have to agree! This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend
                  to think it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
                  I remember reading on their website (Cherokee) the qualifications
                  you need to be officially registered within the Cherokee tribe,
                  so this is not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
                  The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain fraction-
                  can't remember what it was, but it seemed a little ridiculous
                  at the time) that you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
                  Indian, than they will not officially recognize a person as a Cherokee.
                  The reason I know this is, because... my son
                  is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
                  I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, to little avail.
                  It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they can actually "expel"
                  members they officially accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
                  That's what I don't get???!
                  Heather

                  Related Link:

                  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2566

                • multiracialbookclub
                  More on the Freedmen s struggle: Related Links: http://www.rachelstavern.com http://www.snowwowl.com/hhcherokeefreedmen.html
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                    More on the Freedmen's struggle:

                    Related Links:

                    http://www.rachelstavern.com  
                    http://www.snowwowl.com/hhcherokeefreedmen.html
                    http://www.freedmenconference.com
                    http://www.cornsilks.com/davidswords.html 


                    "multiracialbookclub" <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                    Jeff wrote:

                    If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                    be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                    My Reply:

                    Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                    a good point in this food for thought about
                    what could be the initial emotional responses
                    that anyone would feel after having been
                    treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                    That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                    I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                    so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                    the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                    struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                    – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                    and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                    go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                    to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                    Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                    Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                    their own would make them feel that their past
                    efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                    It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                    of the
                    African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                    to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                    and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                    have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                    in The States – but, due to what they and their
                    ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                    were generally not willing to give up their
                    American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                    Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                    work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                    treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                    part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                    which provided these benefits to both the
                    AAs and 
                    other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                    It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                    historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                    want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                    Just a thought.

                    Have a great day.

                    -- M

                    Related Links:


                    http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                    http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
                    http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                    http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/



                    j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                    If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                    be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.


                    multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                    That's true ... Jeff!

                    You do have a good knack for looking at all
                    sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                    As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                    --- M



                     j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                    I guess many might have thought they were
                    those "long lost relatives" wanting
                    to cash in regardless of the truth.
                    I dont support their decision but I
                    guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                    multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                    Jeff wrote:


                    <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                    if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                    with no indian identity, experience or interest
                    who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                    My reply:


                    Hi Jeff,

                    Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                    always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                    The only problem here, however, is that
                    this analogy does not apply to the
                    situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                    The majority of The Freedmen have
                    been repeatedly proven to be the known
                    Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                    'descendents of the people who were originally
                    slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                    era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                    became members of and absorbed into the
                    tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                    became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                    Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                    lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                    have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                    heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                    As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                    a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                    certainly have more connection to and shared
                    heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                    of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                    up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                    'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                    family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                    other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                    and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                    or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                    Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                    'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                    the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                    of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                    none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                    'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                    realized that casino money could be involved.

                    Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                    in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                    Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                    largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                    Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                    -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                    (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                    thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                    order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                    any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                    the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                    It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                    -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                    caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                    step against the very Freedmen who have been
                    an active, important and functioning part of 
                    the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                    The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                    long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                    up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                    of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                    They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                    full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                    not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                    and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                    racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                    to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                    (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                    -- would never have even been an issue.

                    The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                    in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                    is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                    that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                    Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                    Just a thought.
                    Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                    --M


                    P.S.

                    A good book and film on the subject
                    of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                    'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                    Related Links:

                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                     j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                    Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                    just joined since it appears that there were only
                    800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                    I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                    of
                    African-Americans historical
                    Native-American ties and lineage.

                    But I think besides racism
                    it also came down to greed.

                    But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                    if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                    with no indian identity, experience or
                    interest who wanted their entitled share.

                    This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                    in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                    because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                    through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                    Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                    it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                    So many of us are of indian descent
                    but will never have the "right" to
                    claim it in this society without recieving
                    snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                    without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                    lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                    Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                    Cherokee Nation members voted
                    Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                    the tribal citizenship of the
                    descendants of the people the
                    Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                    http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
                  • multiracialbookclub
                    True -- the Nation certainly doesn t seem to really try to make anyone (or should I say certain ones ) want to be a member of the club or one of the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                      True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem to really try to
                      make anyone (or should I say 'certain ones') want to be a
                      'member of the club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.



                      j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                      I guess since I recall the article said
                      that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                      wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                      I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                      Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                      I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.
                       
                      The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                      concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.
                       

                      multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                      Jeff wrote:


                      If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                      be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                      My Reply:

                      Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                      a good point in this food for thought about
                      what could be the initial emotional responses
                      that anyone would feel after having been
                      treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                      That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                      I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                      so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                      the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                      struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                      – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                      and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                      go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                      to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                      Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                      Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                      their own would make them feel that their past
                      efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                      It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                      of the
                      African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                      to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                      and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                      have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                      in The States – but, due to what they and their
                      ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                      were generally not willing to give up their
                      American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                      Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                      work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                      treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                      part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                      which provided these benefits to both the
                      AAs and 
                      other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                      It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                      historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                      want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                      Just a thought.

                      Have a great day.

                      -- M

                      Related Links:


                      http://www.afrigene as.com/forume/ index.cgi? noframes; read=9923
                      http://news. newamericamedia. org/news/ view_article. html?article_ id=875400ddf2fb8 fcadc8910f36e174 e8a 
                      http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/ History.htm
                      http://www.freedmen 5tribes.com/



                      j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                      If I was a freedman's descendant I think I would no longer want to
                      be affiliated with the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.

                      multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@hotmail. com> wrote:


                      That's true ... Jeff!

                      You do have a good knack for looking at all
                      sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.:)

                      As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'. :-?

                      --- M



                       j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                      I guess many might have thought they were
                      those "long lost relatives" wanting
                      to cash in regardless of the truth.
                      I dont support their decision but I
                      guess I'm just trying to see all sides.


                      multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                      Jeff wrote:


                      <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                      with no indian identity, experience or interest
                      who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                      My reply:


                      Hi Jeff,

                      Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                      always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                      The only problem here, however, is that
                      this analogy does not apply to the
                      situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                      The majority of The Freedmen have
                      been repeatedly proven to be the known
                      Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                      'descendents of the people who were originally
                      slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                      era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                      became members of and absorbed into the
                      tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                      became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                      Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                      lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                      have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                      heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                      As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                      a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                      certainly have more connection to and shared
                      heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                      of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                      up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                      'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                      family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                      other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                      and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                      or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                      Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                      'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                      the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                      of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                      none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                      'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                      realized that casino money could be involved.

                      Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                      in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                      Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                      largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                      Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                      -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                      (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                      thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                      order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                      any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                      the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                      It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                      -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                      caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                      step against the very Freedmen who have been
                      an active, important and functioning part of 
                      the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                      The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                      long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                      up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                      of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                      They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                      full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                      not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                      and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                      racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                      to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                      (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                      -- would never have even been an issue.

                      The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                      in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                      is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                      that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                      Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                      Just a thought.
                      Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                      --M


                      P.S.

                      A good book and film on the subject
                      of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                      'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                      Related Links:

                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                      http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562 



                       j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                      Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                      just joined since it appears that there were only
                      800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                      I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                      of
                      African-Americans historical
                      Native-American ties and lineage.

                      But I think besides racism
                      it also came down to greed.

                      But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                      if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                      with no indian identity, experience or
                      interest who wanted their entitled share.

                      This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                      in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                      because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                      through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                      Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                      it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                      So many of us are of indian descent
                      but will never have the "right" to
                      claim it in this society without recieving
                      snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                      without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                      lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                      Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                      Cherokee Nation members voted
                      Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                      the tribal citizenship of the
                      descendants of the people the
                      Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                      http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/
                    • Heather
                      ...nor mine=) Heather In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com, j s wrote: Plus they base their membership on records made by White government
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                        ...nor mine=) Heather




                        In Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com,
                        j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                        Plus they base their membership on records
                        made by White government workers, kind
                        of like some "blacks" today accepting
                        the slave masters one-drop rule.
                        It's all about money I think.

                        Not my kind of club.



                        Heather Stimmel <heather21230@...> wrote:



                        Yeah, I have to agree!

                        This is ridiculous and, like Multi, I tend to think
                        it is out of racist attitudes that this is happening.
                        I remember reading on their website (Cherokee)
                        the qualifications you need to be officially
                        registered within the Cherokee tribe, so this is
                        not really a shock to me (but, in a way, it is).
                        The site says if you cannot prove (within a certain
                        fraction- can't remember what it was, but it
                        seemed a little ridiculous at the time) that
                        you are a certain (fractional) amount Cherokee
                        Indian, than they will not officially
                        recognize a person as a Cherokee.
                        The reason I know this is, because... my son
                        is part Cherokee, as am I (or, so I'm told).
                        I've done quite a bit of research
                        on this subject, to little avail.
                        It's almost unconscionable (sp?) that they
                        can actually "expel" members they officially
                        accepted as "genuine" at some point in history!
                        That's what I don't get???!
                        Heather

                        Related Link:

                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2566
                      • Heather
                        Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen! I think I get it now. It makes a whole lot more sense now. I don t know, in the past, how things
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                          Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen!
                          I think I "get it" now. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

                          I don't know, in the past, how things have been as far as
                          mixed "White" Amerindians ... but, the last I checked,
                          everyone claiming Cherokee heritage (whatever their
                          Mixture- "black, white," etc.), EVERYONE has to prove it.
                          Certainly, that may not be the case.
                          All I know is what I read on their website and the
                          application for "admittance" into the Cherokee Nation.
                          Who knows whether that's truly the case or not.

                          I'm just as confused, and mystified,
                          by this as everyone else?!

                          Why "admit" ANYONE, then later "revoke" their admittance?

                          Doesn't make a lot of sense to me???!

                          Heather




                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                          True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem
                          to really try to make anyone (or should I say
                          'certain ones') want to be a 'member of the
                          club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.




                          j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                          I guess since I recall the article said that
                          about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                          wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.

                          I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.

                          Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                          I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.

                          The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                          concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.




                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                          <<<Jeff wrote:

                          "If I was a freedman's descendant
                          I think I would no longer want
                          to be affiliated with the tribe
                          anyway after such a slap in the face.">>>


                          My Reply:


                          Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                          a good point in this food for thought about
                          what could be the initial emotional responses
                          that anyone would feel after having been
                          treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                          That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                          I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                          so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                          the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                          struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                          – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                          and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                          go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and
                          trying to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                          Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                          Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                          their own would make them feel that their past
                          efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                          It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                          of the African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able
                          to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                          and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                          have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                          in The States – but, due to what they and their
                          ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                          were generally not willing to give up their
                          American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                          Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                          work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                          treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                          part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement
                          which provided these benefits to both the AAs and
                          other citizens and residents of the country as well.

                          It seems that there is something about those cultural,
                          historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                          want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                          Just a thought.

                          Have a great day.

                          -- M

                          Related Links:

                          http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                          http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a
                          http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                          http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/




                          j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                          If I was a freedman's descendant
                          I think I would no longer want
                          to be affiliated with the tribe
                          anyway after such a slap in the face.



                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                          That's true ... Jeff!

                          You do have a good knack for looking at all
                          sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.

                          As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'.

                          --- M




                          j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                          I guess many might have thought they were
                          those "long lost relatives" wanting
                          to cash in regardless of the truth.
                          I dont support their decision but I
                          guess I'm just trying to see all sides.




                          multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:




                          <<<Jeff wrote:

                          "But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                          with no indian identity, experience or interest
                          who wanted their entitled share.">>>


                          My reply:


                          Hi Jeff,

                          Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                          always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                          The only problem here, however, is that
                          this analogy does not apply to the
                          situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                          The majority of The Freedmen have
                          been repeatedly proven to be the known
                          Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                          'descendents of the people who were originally
                          slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                          era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves
                          became members of and absorbed into the
                          tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                          became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                          Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                          lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                          have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                          heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                          As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                          a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and
                          certainly have more connection to and shared
                          heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                          of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                          up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                          'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                          family legend, an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                          other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                          and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                          or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation').

                          Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                          'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                          the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                          of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                          none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                          'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                          realized that casino money could be involved.

                          Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                          in places like Oklahoma) have 'full' proof of their
                          Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                          largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                          Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                          -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                          (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                          thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                          order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                          any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                          the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                          It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                          -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                          caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                          step against the very Freedmen who have been
                          an active, important and functioning part of
                          the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                          The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                          long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                          up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                          of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                          They are a centuries-old, generations-spanning
                          full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                          not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                          and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                          racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                          to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                          (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                          -- would never have even been an issue.

                          The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                          in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                          is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                          that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                          Walter Plecker in Virginia in the 1920's.

                          Just a thought.
                          Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                          --M


                          P.S.

                          A good book and film on the subject
                          of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                          'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz

                          Related Links:

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1386
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2562





                          j s <creolescience@...> wrote:




                          Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                          just joined since it appears that there were only
                          800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                          I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                          of African-Americans historical
                          Native-American ties and lineage.

                          But I think besides racism
                          it also came down to greed.

                          But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                          if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                          with no indian identity, experience or
                          interest who wanted their entitled share.

                          This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                          in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                          because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                          through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                          Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                          it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                          So many of us are of indian descent
                          but will never have the "right" to
                          claim it in this society without recieving
                          snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                          without the pedirgee of tribal membership.




                          lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:




                          Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                          Cherokee Nation members voted
                          Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                          the tribal citizenship of the
                          descendants of the people the
                          Cherokee once owned as slaves.


                          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17442676/from/ET/
                        • multiracialbookclub
                          You are welcomed Heather and I just wanted to reiterate that ... The issue is not really a matter of having the Freedmen prove themselves to have any
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007

                            You are welcomed Heather and
                            I just wanted to reiterate that ...

                            The issue is not really a matter of having the
                            Freedmen 'prove' themselves to have any
                            'particular amount' of Cherokee / Amerindian
                            admixture --- as the Cherokee Nation leaders
                            admit that they are more than aware that most
                            of the Freedmen have a lineage of at least
                            25%-50% Amerindian / Cherokee and also
                            admit that they are aware that almost all of
                            the Freedman have been continually reared
                            solely or predominantly in the culture of the
                            Cherokee Nation -- for multiple generations.

                            In fact, the Mixed-Race (Black/ Amerindian)
                            `Freedmen` Cherokee have been an open,
                            active and completely functioning part of the
                            Cherokee Nation for more than 150 years.

                            In the past – there was no problem with the
                            Cherokee Nation acknowledging both that
                            the Freedmen where their Bloodline-brethren
                            and that they shared in the same history
                            and continual cultural ties as well.

                            In fact, in the past, the only problem,
                            was that the Federal government
                            (
                            while having no problem acknowledging
                            the Mixed-Race Cherokee who were of
                            White / Amerindian lineage as being of the
                            Cherokee Nation – no matter how `little'
                            Cherokee / Amerindian blood they had
                            ) ----
                            utterly refused to acknowledge the Mixed-Race
                            Cherokee who were of Black / Amerindian lineage
                            as being of the Cherokee Nation – no matter how
                            `much' Cherokee / Amerindian blood they had
                            -- and, instead, assigned them to a "separate"
                            (and clearly, not "equal") membership Roll
                            that was referred to as the `Freedmen' Roll.

                            Prior to the racism-based and greed-inspired politics
                            which sprouted up among some of the members of the
                            Cherokee Nation and it's tribes, of late – the Cherokee had
                            openly accepted their Mixed-Race `Freedmen' brethren
                            who were of Black / Amerindian ancestry and openly felt
                            that the One-Droppist "racial-division" -- implemented
                            by the Dawes Commission and it's "separate" Rolls --
                            was both unfair and intended to be used as a dirty
                            trick to try to further divide and conquer the Nation
                            (
                            particularly since it was well-known by all parties
                            that most of the Black / Amerindian Mixed-Race
                            people that were found on the `Freedman' Dawes
                            Rolls had far more `Cherokee Ancestry' than most
                            of White / Amerindian Mixed-Race people that
                            were found on the `By-Blood' Dawes Roll
                            s).

                            Thus, as stated, the matter of being able to `prove' that
                            they had a `given' amount of Cherokee / Amerindian
                            lineage really wasn't the issue for the Mixed-Race
                            Black / Amerindian `Freedmen' – so much as their
                            struggle of finding themselves initially facing a
                            Federal government imposed "segregation" of
                            being on `separate' Rolls from their brethren
                            (
                            no matter how `much' Cherokee blood they had)
                            --- then later having these racist, discriminatory
                            Dawes Commission Rolls being used against them
                            (
                            by the very same brethren who they had
                            struggled alongside for more than 150 years
                            )
                            to kick them out of their own Nation and
                            out of the only culture that most of these
                            Mixed-Race people have ever known.

                            The issue really seems to center more around the
                            fact that … in an greed-based and racism-inspired
                            effort to remove the Mixed-Race Freedmen
                            (i.e. Cherokee who are of part-Black lineage; whose
                            ancestors were former slaves of the Cherokee Nation;
                            and who, after the Civil War became Freedmen and
                            absorbed – "racially" and culturally -- into the tribe)

                            from being recognized and acknowledged as being
                            full-fledged members of the tribe and citizens
                            of the Cherokee Nation
                            (with all the rights that
                            would come along with it)
                            the leadership actually
                            utilized the very same racist, `Dawes Rolls'
                            (
                            created by the Dawes commission via
                            application of the racist One-Drop Rule
                            )
                            that they had formerly protested and simply
                            `proclaimed' (
                            and later 'voted') that anyone
                            whose family was listed on the Freedman's Roll
                             (
                            no matter how little `Black' ancestry and how
                            much Amerindian ancestry
                            ) would no longer be
                            recognized as a member of the Cherokee Nation.

                            The Dawes Rolls consisted
                            of two (2) separate Rolls:

                            ***  The `By-Blood' Cherokee Roll
                            contained the names of those people
                            who were either full-Amerindian or  
                            the Mixed-Race people who were
                            part-Amerindian and part-White
                            (
                            no matter how `little' Amerindian
                            blood or how `much' White blood
                            )

                            ***  The `Freedmen' Cherokee Roll
                            contained only names of those people
                            who were of some part-Black lineage and
                            also included all Mixed-Race people who
                            were part-Amerindian and part-Black
                            (
                            no matter how `much' Amerindian
                            blood or how `little' Black' blood
                            ).

                            Many of the Mixed-Race White / Amerindian
                            people found on the `By-Blood' Rolls have
                            'far, far less than' 25% Cherokee lineage.

                            Many of the Mixed-Race Black / Amerindian
                            people found on the `Freedmen Rolls actually
                            have `no less than' 25% Cherokee lineage
                            (many have 50% or more Cherokee lineage).

                            For political reasons -- based in greed and
                            racial discrimination – only the people
                            whose names were found on the
                            'Freedman' Roll (
                            no matter if they had
                            25%, 50%, 75%, etc. Cherokee blood
                            )
                            were `Expelled' from the Cherokee Nation.

                            Here they (
                            most of them) share a far greater
                            amount of Blood-lineage and far stronger
                            continual cultural ties to the Cherokee
                            Nation – than do the "white"-Cherokee
                            (which compose the majority of the
                            members which expelled them
                            ) – yet, they
                            and their +150 year old history with and
                            both "racial" and `cultural' connection
                            to their own Nation, were 'annihilated'
                            (via documentary-genocide) with one
                            racist vote – based on using a racist
                            system (
                            The Dawes Commission Rolls)
                            that was created years ago with the
                            intent of destroying the unity and the
                            political power of the Cherokee Nation.




                            "Heather" <heather21230@...> wrote:



                            Multi- Thanks for the clarification, regarding the Freedmen!
                            I think I "get it" now. It makes a whole lot more sense now.

                            I don't know, in the past, how things have been as far as
                            mixed "White" Amerindians ... but, the last I checked,
                            everyone claiming Cherokee heritage (whatever their
                            Mixture- "black, white," etc.), EVERYONE has to prove it. 
                            Certainly, that may not be the case. All I know is
                            what I read on their website and the application
                            for "admittance" into the Cherokee Nation.
                            Who knows whether that's truly the case or not.

                            I'm just as confused, and mystified,
                            by this as everyone else?!

                            Why "admit" ANYONE, then
                            later "revoke" their admittance?

                            Doesn't make a lot of sense to me???!


                            Heather




                            multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                            True -- the 'Nation' certainly doesn't seem to really try to
                            make anyone (or should I say 'certain ones') want to be a
                            'member of the club' or 'one of the family' -- so to speak.


                            j s <creolescience@...> wrote:


                            I guess since I recall the article said
                            that about 2,000 had just signed up last year I
                            wonder about their closeness to the tribal ways.
                            I feel worse for the 800 who had been members so long.
                            Still, if the traditions are intact etc
                            I think 2,800 is a pretty healthy number.

                            The fact that 72% voted against me would be the real
                            concern - that's hardly a family I'd want to be a part of.



                            multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:


                            <<<Jeff wrote:

                            "If I was a freedman's descendant I think I
                            would no longer want to be affiliated with
                            the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.">>>



                            My Reply:

                            Yeah – I hear ya' -- and I think you make
                            a good point in this food for thought about
                            what could be the initial emotional responses
                            that anyone would feel after having been
                            treated in what is so clearly an unfair way.

                            That having been said, I feel I have to add that
                            I also tend to wonder if -- since it appears that
                            so many of these Freedmen grew up largely in
                            the culture (language, food, region, history, outlook,
                            struggle, identity, etc.) only of the Cherokee Nation
                            – it may be the only culture they feel they 'really' know
                            and, thus, I wonder if they would have a hard time letting
                            go of their multi-generational cultural and family ties and trying
                            to become independent of them and the Nation as a whole.

                            Also – after centuries of struggling as `part of the
                            Cherokee Nation' I wonder if branching out on
                            their own would make them feel that their past
                            efforts and those of their ancestors was in vain.

                            It kind of reminds me of when the people who were
                            of the African-American (AA) Ethnic group were able  
                            to go to places like France, in larger numbers, during
                            and after World War I – wherein they were said to
                            have been treated a lot better than they were treated
                            in The States – but, due to what they and their
                            ancestors had struggled for in the States, they
                            were generally not willing to give up their
                            American citizenship and move-on elsewhere.

                            Most decided to return to and remain in the States and to
                            work to try to obtain equal rights, protection, participation,
                            treatment and citizenry in the country – and this drive is
                            part of what led to the American Civil Rights Movement 
                            which provided these benefits to both the AAs and 
                            other citizens and residents of the country as well.


                            It seems that there is something about those cultural, 
                            historical and familial ties that cause people to just
                            want to lay claim to what is clearly rightfully theirs.

                            Just a thought.

                            Have a great day.

                            -- M

                            Related Links:


                            http://www.afrigeneas.com/forume/index.cgi?noframes;read=9923
                            http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=875400ddf2fb8fcadc8910f36e174e8a 
                            http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/History.htm
                            http://www.freedmen5tribes.com/




                            j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                            If I was a freedman's descendant I think
                            I would no longer want to be affiliated with
                            the tribe anyway after such a slap in the face.



                            multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                            That's true ... Jeff!

                            You do have a good knack for looking at all
                            sides of an issue -- and it's really appreciated.

                            As noted, it's really good 'food for thought'.

                            --- M




                             j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                            I guess many might have thought they were
                            those "long lost relatives" wanting
                            to cash in regardless of the truth.
                            I dont support their decision but I
                            guess I'm just trying to see all sides.



                            multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                            Jeff wrote:




                            <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                            if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                            with no indian identity, experience or interest
                            who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                            My reply:


                            Hi Jeff,

                            Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                            always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                            The only problem here, however, is that
                            this analogy does not apply to the
                            situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                            The majority of The Freedmen have
                            been repeatedly proven to be the known
                            Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                            'descendents of the people who were originally
                            slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                            era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                            became members of and absorbed into the
                            tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                            became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                            Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                            lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                            have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                            heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                            As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                            a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                            certainly have more connection to and shared
                            heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                            of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                            up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                            'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                            family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                            other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                            and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                            or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation').

                            Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                            'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                            the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                            of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                            none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                            'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                            realized that casino money could be involved.

                            Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                            in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                            Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                            largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                            Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                            -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                            (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                            thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                            order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                            any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                            the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                            It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                            -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                            caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                            step against the very Freedmen who have been
                            an active, important and functioning part of 
                            the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                            The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                            long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                            up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                            of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                            They are a centuries-old, generations-spanning
                            full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                            not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                            and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                            racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                            to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                            (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                            -- would never have even been an issue.

                            The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                            in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                            is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                            that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                            Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                            Just a thought.
                            Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                            --M


                            P.S.

                            A good book and film on the subject
                            of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                            'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                            Related Links:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1386  
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/2562 



                             j s <creolescience@...> wrote:



                            Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                            just joined since it appears that there were only
                            800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                            I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                            of
                            African-Americans historical
                            Native-American ties and lineage.

                            But I think besides racism
                            it also came down to greed.

                            But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                            if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                            with no indian identity, experience or
                            interest who wanted their entitled share.

                            This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                            in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                            because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                            through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                            Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                            it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                            So many of us are of indian descent
                            but will never have the "right" to
                            claim it in this society without recieving
                            snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                            without the pedirgee of tribal membership.




                            lbaker <tlbaker@...> wrote:




                            Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                            Cherokee Nation members voted
                            Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                            the tribal citizenship of the
                            descendants of the people the
                            Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                            http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17442676/from/ET/
                          • wintyreeve@aol.com
                            Hello Friends, Lots to say on this topic! Its great hearing from everyone--and getting your thoughts. I went to see a Lakota medicine man speak on Saturday, he
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 4, 2007
                              Hello Friends,


                              Lots to say on this topic! Its great hearing
                              from everyone--and getting your thoughts.


                              I went to see a Lakota medicine man
                              speak on Saturday, he is racially mixed.
                              I think he said he was Scotch and Lakota.
                              I listened to the medicine man speak,
                              and was respectful ... but was rather
                              offended by a remark he made.
                              The medicine man was talking about
                              how large some tribes are said,
                              "Anyone can be a Cherokee these days."
                              If that was true--then why don't we
                              have a United States of Cherokee?
                              And is it your business to judge someone else --
                              to make the decision as an outsider, someone
                              who has no idea what has happened in
                              each person's individual life, their ancestry?


                              My family is Cherokee--and I don't feel I have to
                              "prove" it. I feel a much larger responsibility to
                              teach my children of their heritage, and to teach
                              them to remember all that has been lost.
                              Family stories tell of a town in
                              Alabama called "Bear Creek" where my
                              grandmother, and her people came from.
                              That town does not exist anymore--it is gone.
                              The Cherokee were forced out of Alabama
                              into reservations or hiding, it was even
                              dangerous to speak the language.
                              Those who married into African-American
                              families and assimilated into their community
                              often led very difficult, impoverished lives.
                              They were once free and then became croppers
                              --called the "n" word and worse--forced to
                              give up the life they knew, and accept
                              less than what a pig would be given ...

                              To live in these kind of conditions takes a warrior spirit.

                              To pass on knowledge, even the little that
                              exists, is carrying on the fight--is raising a fist.

                              Now is the time to embrace
                              your heritage, whatever it is.

                              To reclaim your stories and pass
                              them on to the next generations.

                              Fight for your ancestors to be remembered
                              -- fight for your recognition.

                              I think it's time to send the message:
                              �We're not going away� ...

                              We are a free and strong people, who already
                              has been bestowed our heritage by the Creator.

                              We don't need you to give that to us.

                              We know who we are--and we
                              will live and die by our true identity.

                              We won't allow someone else to take from us, the basic
                              right of our existence ... to recreate our stories, our lives.

                              We will take up the fight, not against our brothers
                              and sisters but against the racism, bigotry, hatred and
                              intolerance that has diseased our people like a cancer.

                              This is an old battle, we all bear its scars.

                              Its a battle that can be won with understanding and
                              compassion--with acceptance of our diverse history
                              -- and with determination to fight like a warrior, to
                              carry on the legacy our ancestors left, to grit our teeth
                              and take the battle face to face with the ugliness and
                              hatred that has penetrated even those among us.

                              And to look that spirit of intolerance
                              in the eye and be able to say:
                              �I am Cherokee�.
                              Or I am (your nationality).

                              And then you live your truth, and keep our fight
                              going strong--as long as it takes to overcome.

                              We will not live in the struggle, we
                              live in the proud spirit of our ancestors.

                              We embrace each day as a way to honor our
                              unique heritage, our traditions, our journeys.

                              And even amid the struggle, we hold our head high--
                              knowing that our freedom has been won by warriors like
                              these, and if we continue to stand for who we are, and
                              stand united, much greater will be bestowed to us.

                              Blessings~ Lynn
                               
                               



                            • tlbaker
                              This could be true, still believe the decision is wrong. _____ From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of j s Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:10 PM To:
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 5, 2007

                                This could be true, still believe the decision is wrong.

                                 


                                From: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                On Behalf Of j s
                                Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 2:10 PM
                                To: Generation-Mixed@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'

                                 

                                I guess many might have thought they were
                                those "long lost relatives" wanting
                                to cash in regardless of the truth.
                                I dont support their decision but I
                                guess I'm just trying to see all sides.



                                multiracialbookclub <soaptalk@...> wrote:



                                Jeff wrote:

                                <<<"But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                with no indian identity, experience or interest
                                who wanted their entitled share.">>>



                                My reply:

                                Hi Jeff,

                                Thanks for commenting ... as your commentary is
                                always appreciated and is good food for thought.

                                The only problem here, however, is that
                                this analogy does not apply to the
                                situation faced by 'The Freedmen'.

                                The majority of The Freedmen have
                                been repeatedly proven to be the known
                                Mixed-Race (part-Black and part-Amerindian)
                                'descendents of the people who were originally
                                slaves to the tribe' -- but after the Antebellum
                                era of chattel slavery ended, the former slaves 
                                became members of and absorbed into the
                                tribe and they and their Mixed-Race offspring
                                became referred to as being The Freedmen.

                                Most of them were of continually part-Cherokee
                                lineage; largely only knew of Cherokee ways; and
                                have, for generations, grown up in the Cherokee
                                heritage, language, customs, rituals, beliefs, etc.

                                As noted, most of these Freedmen are both of
                                a Mixed-Race (Native and Black) lineage and 
                                certainly have more connection to and shared
                                heritage with their Cherokee brethren than many
                                of the people of 'White' phenotype who often show
                                up at tribal functions declaring themselves to be
                                'part-Cherokee' (often based on nothing more than
                                family legend,  an old photograph, etc. -- with no
                                other proof) -- who are all but gleefully accepted by
                                and enrolled in the tribe with very little questioning
                                or investigation (and certainly no 'interrogation' ).

                                Many of these 'White'' "newly-discovered"
                                'accepted' Cherokee know nothing about
                                the customs, language, heritage, history, etc.
                                of the tribe and they have shared in little or
                                none of the tribal 'sufferings' -- and they simply
                                'recollected' their 'alleged' lineage when they
                                realized that casino money could be involved.

                                Meanwhile, most of the Freedmen (particularly those
                                in places like Oklahoma ) have 'full' proof of their
                                Mixed-Race lineage and most of them also have
                                largely never broken off their cultural tribal ties.

                                Yet, the Cherokee Nation -- out of greed and racism
                                -- has chosen to 'discriminate' against them by
                                (following the Dawes Commission footsteps) and,
                                thus, implementing the racist One-Drop Rule in
                                order to, yet again, deny the people who have
                                any known or acknowledged Black ancestry
                                the right to lay claim to their full-lineage.

                                It, in my humble opinion, is racism and greed
                                -- not tribal pride and protection -- that has
                                caused the Cherokee Nation to take this horrid
                                step against the very Freedmen who have been
                                an active, important and functioning part of 
                                the Cherokee Nation for multiple generations.

                                The Freedmen are a far cry from being some
                                long-lost, unheard of relatives who've shown
                                up at someone's doorstep requesting a share
                                of someone's 'Super Lotto' ticket winnings.

                                They are a centuries-old, generations- spanning
                                full-part of the Cherokee Nation and -- were it
                                not for the Cherokee Nation's greed-based
                                and racism-embracing acceptance of the
                                racist One-Drop Rule, this matter -- of how
                                to respond to the Mixed-Race Freedman
                                (who, again, did not cut their tribal ties)
                                -- would never have even been an issue.

                                The action taken by the Cherokee Nation --
                                in expelling these Mixed-Race Freedmen --
                                is no less racist, in my humble opinion, than
                                that which was taken by White-Supremacist
                                Walter Plecker  in Virginia in the 1920's.

                                Just a thought.
                                Thanks again for sharing and have a great day!

                                --M


                                P.S.

                                A good book and film on the subject
                                of groups like 'The Freedmen' is called
                                'Black Indians' -- by William Loren Katz


                                Related Links:

                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1386
                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1747
                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 1400
                                http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Generation -Mixed/message/ 2562


                                 In Generation-Mixed@ yahoogroups. com,
                                j s <creolescience@ ...> wrote:


                                Wow. I suppose it was in response to the 2,000 that
                                just joined since it appears that there were only
                                800 members prior to the vote allowing them in.

                                I guess it's also another "invalidation"
                                of
                                African-Americans historical
                                Native-American ties and lineage.

                                But I think besides racism
                                it also came down to greed.

                                But I guess I can also see their point to an extent
                                if all of a sudden there were people who joined
                                with no indian identity, experience or
                                interest who wanted their entitled share.

                                This is just one reason why I have no real interest
                                in seeking out tribal affiliation or membership
                                because I'm sure one would really have to jump
                                through hoops in what is basically a political process.

                                Probably before the proliferation of indian casinos
                                it wasn't as hard but now so much cash is involved.

                                So many of us are of indian descent
                                but will never have the "right" to
                                claim it in this society without recieving
                                snickers, disbelief or disdain since we are
                                without the pedirgee of tribal membership.


                                lbaker <tlbaker@nyc. rr.com> wrote:


                                Cherokee Nation votes to expel 'freedmen'


                                Cherokee Nation members voted
                                Saturday (3/3/2007) to revoke
                                the tribal citizenship of the
                                descendants of the people the
                                Cherokee once owned as slaves.



                                http://www.msnbc. msn.com/id/ 17442676/ from/ET/


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